Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

abacomike · January 2017

@nyccarguy

Great job working with the kids. You should be proud of them - but just as proud of yourself. My Dad never did anything with me or my brother - not Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, School Projects, baseball - nothing! But he just was not a supportive or participatory father. My Mom took his place - but in his later life, we developed a great, close relationship.

I never despised my Dad for that - I respected him and loved him for who and what he was. Your kids will do the same. You are being the kind of father to your kids that I always wished for - congrats!!!

stickguy · January 2017

Mike, I think back in the day (I'm not that far off from you), parents just were not active with the kids. Dads worked. Kids went to school and played. Moms took care of the house, and certainly didn't micro manage or spend all their time with the kids.

oldfarmer50 · January 2017

nyccarguy said:

My boys and I finished our derby cars. They get impounded tomorrow. The scout leader or troop leader said he'll put the wheels on with a apecial tool. The race is Sunday! Very exciting!

I love them!

roadburner · January 2017

abacomike said:
@jmonroe

Read your post re: technology in your Genesis - that you'd rather turn a knob or press a button over implementing a technology feature. I believe it has to do with comfort level. I can rotate my finger clockwise in front of the radio to increase volume or counterclockwise to reduce volume - or I can press + or - on the steering wheel - or I can turn a knob. I always end up turning a knob.

But what I have been using more and more is voice activation. I can say "display tire pressure monitor", "display weather", "play my music", "satellite radio channel 17", "or display navigation map", etc., etc. I can call up just about anything in the car by just using voice control - that is much more advanced than my Mercedes which had limited voice activation.

It all has to do with comfort level.

I use voice activation quite a bit as well. All I usually want in a car is speed, handling, braking, decent audio, and heated seats- but I have to admit I like all the tech in the 2er.

oldfarmer50 · January 2017

graphicguy said:

jmonroe said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
A lot of cars built in Germany are not actually built by Germans. I don't think it matters at all who builds it, as long as they are well-trained. Don't worry about who built your car, worry about who manages the factory it was built in.

I'm going to disagree a little.

Management can only account for so much shoddy workmanship of the assembly line workers. Isn't this what almost did in cars from Detroit?

It's getting better but there is still that "perception".

Then we have Caddy. Ask @graphicguy if it is still a "perception" or shoddy work or bad engineering. Maybe a little of all of that.

jmonroe
J.....Obviously, engineering fell down. That's not perception. It's reality. Shoddy work? Not so certain about that. The worker just put together what engineering and the manufacturing process told them to. The assembly workers are putting together the Cadillacs as well as any in the entire industry.

The process is to blame, also. How do you go a few weeks, or in my case, a month...without having the parts required? Further, how do you put out a $60K car that catches on fire because of your engineering incompetence? Further, how can you engineer a car that matches, or exceeds the world's best from a build, handling, performance, build and materials, and fall down on something as simple as a wiring harness and a ground cable?

Then, there are the dealers. I had one that was terrible. And, one that seems to take a genuine interest. That can be true of Cadillac, just as easily as it can be true of BMW, Mercedes, etc. The dealerships who seem to consistently offer the best customer service seems to be Lexus.

I want to believe in Cadillac. I really do. For every step forward, it seems they take two steps back.

What I want to know is why they design car that takes 10 hours of labor to replace a $20 part and why they design thst $20 part to fail long before the rest of the car.

stickguy · January 2017

because the engineers don't care about that many years down the line?

jmonroe · January 2017

abacomike said:

PF_Flyer said:

Another way to put it might be... that bolt doesn't know who or what tightened it

So much of the manufacturing process done in all modern assembly plants is accomplished by robotics which, in turn, are directed by computers and their programs. Even a substantial amount of quality control is accomplished by robotics, lasers and computers.

I remember that it was a well-known fact that US cars manufactured on Mondays or Fridays had s higher probability of manufacturing defects or errors in assembly - missing bolts, screws, welds, etc. That was due to the fact that laborers built and assembled cars on the line and were more prone to errors when coming off a weekend or beginning a weekend. I'm sure most of you have heard about this or read about this during the 50's and 60's and well into the 70's and 80's. Once robotics took over most of the assembly, those problems ebbed. But new problems arose with the advent of increased attention to economy and safety.

All in all, when you consider the fact that 17+ million vehicles were sold in the US last year, one has to expect certain problems or defects, even with robotics and computers, no matter where the vehicle was manufactured and/or assembled.

Ask @graphicguy if he believes his Caddies have suffered from the dilemma you described.

jmonroe

andres3 · January 2017

Time to show Caliber Collisions handy work on the ol' '14 B8.5 S4 and how American hands differed from the German ones that originally put the car together (or robotic hands run/controlled by humans and human software) This is how they gave it back to me and claimed it was all fixed and completed; a 4 month old car:

First up, American Body Shop Alignment pride:

This is how Germany does it:

Low-hanging exhaust; my favorite!

Mysterious Chip:

Chrysler gap tolerances used on an Audi!?!?

General paint work with scuffs and scratches and lack of coverage at no additional charge!

What do you all think of this pride of workmanship?

graphicguy · January 2017

Andres....that's unacceptable. But, more a testament to the body shop's laziness than anything else.

sda · January 2017

I've seen some really impressive repair jobs yet the few body repairs I've had on our cars have been less than perfect. Paint not matching, panel fit, you name it. I understand your frustration.

houdini1 · January 2017

jmonroe said:

abacomike said:

PF_Flyer said:

Another way to put it might be... that bolt doesn't know who or what tightened it

So much of the manufacturing process done in all modern assembly plants is accomplished by robotics which, in turn, are directed by computers and their programs. Even a substantial amount of quality control is accomplished by robotics, lasers and computers.

I remember that it was a well-known fact that US cars manufactured on Mondays or Fridays had s higher probability of manufacturing defects or errors in assembly - missing bolts, screws, welds, etc. That was due to the fact that laborers built and assembled cars on the line and were more prone to errors when coming off a weekend or beginning a weekend. I'm sure most of you have heard about this or read about this during the 50's and 60's and well into the 70's and 80's. Once robotics took over most of the assembly, those problems ebbed. But new problems arose with the advent of increased attention to economy and safety.

All in all, when you consider the fact that 17+ million vehicles were sold in the US last year, one has to expect certain problems or defects, even with robotics and computers, no matter where the vehicle was manufactured and/or assembled.

Ask @graphicguy if he believes his Caddies have suffered from the dilemma you described.

jmonroe

In this day and age of computers, etc. I cannot understand why a car must have at least a million tiny parts that hold another million tiny parts together that make up just a part. All these tiny little parts squeak, rattle, and wear out. A tiny little mishap and you have all these tiny little parts broken and lying in the road.

You would think that someone would take a fresh look at all this, using computers of course, and figure out a way to simplify the process. I know the engine, transmission, etc. has to be a little complicated, but it seems like all the stuff that they hang on the chassis could be greatly simplified and improved.

roadburner · January 2017

As all cars-not just luxury/performance models-become increasingly complex I believe that the average life span for them will be around 10 years and 150,000 miles at most. Past that point repairs will be either economically unfeasible or not available.

sda · January 2017

10 years/150k life span is not bad. With some exceptions, 30 years ago most cars were mechanically worn out by around 100k, though many were nursed for more miles.

nyccarguy · January 2017

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/18/colorado-car-salesman-dies-after-crashing-maserati-at-reckless-speeds.html

imidazol97 · January 2017

roadburner said:
As all cars-not just luxury/performance models-become increasingly complex I believe that the average life span for them will be around 10 years and 150,000 miles at most. Past that point repairs will be either economically unfeasible or not available.

That's exactly right. Just as cars in the 60s and 70s had a major maintenance free lifespan of about 70-100,000 miles, and the push to improve that lifespan to now 200-300,000 miles optimal cases started, we'll see the push to lengthen the lifetime of the electonics and nanny systems.

However, the advance of technology will make driving a car that lacks the newer stuff, seem like driving a 1956 Chevrolet does today. So technology evolution may be the driving factor to replace a car.

28firefighter · January 2017

nyccarguy said:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/18/colorado-car-salesman-dies-after-crashing-maserati-at-reckless-speeds.html

My god.

andres3 · January 2017

graphicguy said:
Andres....that's unacceptable. But, more a testament to the body shop's laziness than anything else.

Glad you said something @graphicguy

Thought I was maybe going crazy because someone in the SD Audi Club seeing the same pictures said maybe I was giving VAG too much credit, as the alignment looked rather "stock." Maybe they were being sarcastic?? They own a Golf R so maybe they don't realize Audi has higher standards than VW. Some VW buyer's do fool themselves into thinking they are getting cheaper Audi's

I know that Audi employs a QC manager that is doing the job just the way I'd do it personally, as being in the SoCal Audi Club, I had access to view about eight or nine S4's, more than you'd probably find visiting 3 dealerships (I visited one too), by going to a single club event. You can bet I checked the alignment of trim on doors on both sides of all those S4's, and all of them aligned perfectly just like the other side of mine that hadn't been messed with outside of Ingolstadt.

The only example they could show me of misalignment was an A4 on the body shop lot, that of course, had been crashed!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2017

Build quality becomes somewhat irrelevant if reliability isn't on a par with it.

jmonroe · January 2017

andres3 said:

graphicguy said:
Andres....that's unacceptable. But, more a testament to the body shop's laziness than anything else.
Glad you said something @graphicguy

Thought I was maybe going crazy because someone in the SD Audi Club seeing the same pictures said maybe I was giving VAG too much credit, as the alignment looked rather "stock." Maybe they were being sarcastic?? They own a Golf R so maybe they don't realize Audi has higher standards than VW. Some VW buyer's do fool themselves into thinking they are getting cheaper Audi's

I know that Audi employs a QC manager that is doing the job just the way I'd do it personally, as being in the SoCal Audi Club, I had access to view about eight or nine S4's, more than you'd probably find visiting 3 dealerships (I visited one too), by going to a single club event. You can bet I checked the alignment of trim on doors on both sides of all those S4's, and all of them aligned perfectly just like the other side of mine that hadn't been messed with outside of Ingolstadt.

The only example they could show me of misalignment was an A4 on the body shop lot, that of course, had been crashed!

I too would be upset with the workmanship you showed in your pics.

If closing the gap along one edge opens it on the opposite edge, that would tell me that the part used may not have been a factory part but rather an aftermarket part with less tolerance requirements.

Have you gotten that explained to you? The way I understand insurance repair responsibility is that up to 2 or 3 years, you are entitled to factory parts. That is the way my policy is written.

I mentioned this before:

When Mrs. j's 2012 Legacy went in for a right front fender replacement in June of 2016 due to a hit and run by a truck in a parking lot, I watched the dealers estimator guy take at least a dozen pics all the way around her car. When I asked why so many pics the guy said, "this car is in great shape and is beyond the point where new parts have to be used, but these pics will show that this car is deserving of factory parts and your insurance company is one of the best ones so I'm pretty sure they will authorize factory parts when they see these pics". He was right, my insurance company authorized factory parts and the fit was like it was when I bought the car.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

jmonroe

fintail · January 2017

I think reliability is pretty similar for most cars now. Not many late model cars broken down on the side of the road these days. People will deal with intermittent quirks or teething issues for high build and materials quality.

andres3 · January 2017

jmonroe said:

andres3 said:

graphicguy said:
Andres....that's unacceptable. But, more a testament to the body shop's laziness than anything else.
Glad you said something @graphicguy

Thought I was maybe going crazy because someone in the SD Audi Club seeing the same pictures said maybe I was giving VAG too much credit, as the alignment looked rather "stock." Maybe they were being sarcastic?? They own a Golf R so maybe they don't realize Audi has higher standards than VW. Some VW buyer's do fool themselves into thinking they are getting cheaper Audi's

I know that Audi employs a QC manager that is doing the job just the way I'd do it personally, as being in the SoCal Audi Club, I had access to view about eight or nine S4's, more than you'd probably find visiting 3 dealerships (I visited one too), by going to a single club event. You can bet I checked the alignment of trim on doors on both sides of all those S4's, and all of them aligned perfectly just like the other side of mine that hadn't been messed with outside of Ingolstadt.

The only example they could show me of misalignment was an A4 on the body shop lot, that of course, had been crashed!
I too would be upset with the workmanship you showed in your pics.

If closing the gap along one edge opens it on the opposite edge, that would tell me that the part used may not have been a factory part but rather an aftermarket part with less tolerance requirements.

Have you gotten that explained to you? The way I understand insurance repair responsibility is that up to 2 or 3 years, you are entitled to factory parts. That is the way my policy is written.

I mentioned this before:

When Mrs. j's 2012 Legacy went in for a right front fender replacement in June of 2016 due to a hit and run by a truck in a parking lot, I watched the dealers estimator guy take at least a dozen pics all the way around her car. When I asked why so many pics the guy said, "this car is in great shape and is beyond the point where new parts have to be used, but these pics will show that this car is deserving of factory parts and your insurance company is one of the best ones so I'm pretty sure they will authorize factory parts when they see these pics". He was right, my insurance company authorized factory parts and the fit was like it was when I bought the car.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

jmonroe

The hood fitting issues were definitely poor alignment and poor installation. Narrow gap on one side, wide gap on the other (along with maybe a tweak of 1 or 2 degrees off angle). Perhaps contributing a bit to it, the front fender may also not have been quite pushed in exactly like it should have been creating the larger fender to hood gap (in part at least). They definitely used OEM parts, at least according to all the documentation; the car was only 4 months old.

They even approved "color wet sanding" as the paint condition "warranted it." But just because the insurance company approves the procedures to do the work correctly, doesn't mean it'll get completed correctly.

I'm sure there are some cases where the insurance is to blame as much or more than the body shop, but this isn't one of them.

graphicguy · January 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
Build quality becomes somewhat irrelevant if reliability isn't on a par with it.

True Words!

jmonroe · January 2017

graphicguy said:

jmonroe said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
A lot of cars built in Germany are not actually built by Germans. I don't think it matters at all who builds it, as long as they are well-trained. Don't worry about who built your car, worry about who manages the factory it was built in.

I'm going to disagree a little.

Management can only account for so much shoddy workmanship of the assembly line workers. Isn't this what almost did in cars from Detroit?

It's getting better but there is still that "perception".

Then we have Caddy. Ask @graphicguy if it is still a "perception" or shoddy work or bad engineering. Maybe a little of all of that.

jmonroe
J.....Obviously, engineering fell down. That's not perception. It's reality. Shoddy work? Not so certain about that. The worker just put together what engineering and the manufacturing process told them to. The assembly workers are putting together the Cadillacs as well as any in the entire industry.

The process is to blame, also. How do you go a few weeks, or in my case, a month...without having the parts required? Further, how do you put out a $60K car that catches on fire because of your engineering incompetence? Further, how can you engineer a car that matches, or exceeds the world's best from a build, handling, performance, build and materials, and fall down on something as simple as a wiring harness and a ground cable?

Then, there are the dealers. I had one that was terrible. And, one that seems to take a genuine interest. That can be true of Cadillac, just as easily as it can be true of BMW, Mercedes, etc. The dealerships who seem to consistently offer the best customer service seems to be Lexus.

I want to believe in Cadillac. I really do. For every step forward, it seems they take two steps back.

To make short what could be a very long post, thereby turning off a few readers and specifically @driver100, your Caddy problem is what happens when changes are made without "verifying" what was changed will actually work in the real world.

During my work career I was responsible for designing and "verifying" what I sent to the shop to be built and then tested by our quality lab, would meet our requirements. I wrote more procedures than I can count. That was part of my job so that is what I did. Before I sent a procedure to our "system" for use, I ALWAYS went to the lab, grabbed a tech, sat down with him and the two of us proceeded to go through, step by step, what I wrote. As can be understood, I almost always changed something because I could see that it could be done BETTER once a couple of hands and heads got on the hardware. And coincidentally, a few times I saw that a wiring harness was too short and should be lengthened to avoid problems and most of the times rerouted to avoid even more problems. This was clearly not done when Cadillac built your car.

I know it is expensive but until a few hands are laid on changes, hidden problems will almost always surface... sometime, somewhere.

I hope this post was short enough to not bore anyone but still explain my thoughts.

jmonroe

suydam · January 2017

Or it could just be bad luck.

jmonroe · January 2017

andres3 said:

jmonroe said:

andres3 said:

graphicguy said:
Andres....that's unacceptable. But, more a testament to the body shop's laziness than anything else.
Glad you said something @graphicguy

Thought I was maybe going crazy because someone in the SD Audi Club seeing the same pictures said maybe I was giving VAG too much credit, as the alignment looked rather "stock." Maybe they were being sarcastic?? They own a Golf R so maybe they don't realize Audi has higher standards than VW. Some VW buyer's do fool themselves into thinking they are getting cheaper Audi's

I know that Audi employs a QC manager that is doing the job just the way I'd do it personally, as being in the SoCal Audi Club, I had access to view about eight or nine S4's, more than you'd probably find visiting 3 dealerships (I visited one too), by going to a single club event. You can bet I checked the alignment of trim on doors on both sides of all those S4's, and all of them aligned perfectly just like the other side of mine that hadn't been messed with outside of Ingolstadt.

The only example they could show me of misalignment was an A4 on the body shop lot, that of course, had been crashed!
I too would be upset with the workmanship you showed in your pics.

If closing the gap along one edge opens it on the opposite edge, that would tell me that the part used may not have been a factory part but rather an aftermarket part with less tolerance requirements.

Have you gotten that explained to you? The way I understand insurance repair responsibility is that up to 2 or 3 years, you are entitled to factory parts. That is the way my policy is written.

I mentioned this before:

When Mrs. j's 2012 Legacy went in for a right front fender replacement in June of 2016 due to a hit and run by a truck in a parking lot, I watched the dealers estimator guy take at least a dozen pics all the way around her car. When I asked why so many pics the guy said, "this car is in great shape and is beyond the point where new parts have to be used, but these pics will show that this car is deserving of factory parts and your insurance company is one of the best ones so I'm pretty sure they will authorize factory parts when they see these pics". He was right, my insurance company authorized factory parts and the fit was like it was when I bought the car.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

jmonroe
The hood fitting issues were definitely poor alignment and poor installation. Narrow gap on one side, wide gap on the other (along with maybe a tweak of 1 or 2 degrees off angle). Perhaps contributing a bit to it, the front fender may also not have been quite pushed in exactly like it should have been creating the larger fender to hood gap (in part at least). They definitely used OEM parts, at least according to all the documentation; the car was only 4 months old.

They even approved "color wet sanding" as the paint condition "warranted it." But just because the insurance company approves the procedures to do the work correctly, doesn't mean it'll get completed correctly.

I'm sure there are some cases where the insurance is to blame as much or more than the body shop, but this isn't one of them.

OK, I understand your situation.

If nothing else, you now know where not to go for any future body work.

jmonroe

abacomike · January 2017

houdini1 said:

jmonroe said:

abacomike said:

PF_Flyer said:

Another way to put it might be... that bolt doesn't know who or what tightened it

So much of the manufacturing process done in all modern assembly plants is accomplished by robotics which, in turn, are directed by computers and their programs. Even a substantial amount of quality control is accomplished by robotics, lasers and computers.

I remember that it was a well-known fact that US cars manufactured on Mondays or Fridays had s higher probability of manufacturing defects or errors in assembly - missing bolts, screws, welds, etc. That was due to the fact that laborers built and assembled cars on the line and were more prone to errors when coming off a weekend or beginning a weekend. I'm sure most of you have heard about this or read about this during the 50's and 60's and well into the 70's and 80's. Once robotics took over most of the assembly, those problems ebbed. But new problems arose with the advent of increased attention to economy and safety.

All in all, when you consider the fact that 17+ million vehicles were sold in the US last year, one has to expect certain problems or defects, even with robotics and computers, no matter where the vehicle was manufactured and/or assembled.
Ask @graphicguy if he believes his Caddies have suffered from the dilemma you described.

jmonroe

In this day and age of computers, etc. I cannot understand why a car must have at least a million tiny parts that hold another million tiny parts together that make up just a part. All these tiny little parts squeak, rattle, and wear out. A tiny little mishap and you have all these tiny little parts broken and lying in the road.

You would think that someone would take a fresh look at all this, using computers of course, and figure out a way to simplify the process. I know the engine, transmission, etc. has to be a little complicated, but it seems like all the stuff that they hang on the chassis could be greatly simplified and improved.

Houdini, I would think that if there was a way to minimalize parts and other intricacies in an automobile, progress would have been made to accomplish this. Just compare the number of parts, wires, junctions, etc., in an average car to those in a Boeing 747-800. To reduce the gross weight of that massive airplane, I would think that Boeing has engineered as much simplicity into that flying city as they could without sacrificing safety and stability. Remember, airplanes as well a automobiles have redundancies built into each system for safety and stability reasons.

So, in conclusion, it is my personal belief that if it was possible to simplify all the components in an automobile, it's been done or is in the process of being done - but there is a point of diminishing returns in that process.

oldfarmer50 · January 2017

28firefighter said:

nyccarguy said:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/18/colorado-car-salesman-dies-after-crashing-maserati-at-reckless-speeds.html
My god.

That's the way I want to go....but at 90 not 24.

28firefighter · January 2017

oldfarmer50 said:

28firefighter said:

nyccarguy said:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/01/18/colorado-car-salesman-dies-after-crashing-maserati-at-reckless-speeds.html
My god.
That's the way I want to go....but at 90 not 24.

Agree, and on a track or somewhere contained. Not on a public road posing risk to innocent people.

houdini1 · January 2017

fintail said:
I think reliability is pretty similar for most cars now. Not many late model cars broken down on the side of the road these days. People will deal with intermittent quirks or teething issues for high build and materials quality.

Cars are much more reliable today than they were a few years ago, but when the various brands are compared to each other, the Japanese usually come out on top and have for several years.

fintail · January 2017

That's right, but the gaps are a lot smaller, and many of these studies are somewhat spurious, when a car is dinged because the driver doesn't like the mpg or lacks the capacity to sync the bluetooth.

On the build quality issue, many will also trade a little higher maintenance (which also probably dings reliability ratings) for something more enjoyable to drive. A lot of subjective ideals in rating a car.

houdini1 said:

Cars are much more reliable today than they were a few years ago, but when the various brands are compared to each other, the Japanese usually come out on top and have for several years.

abacomike · January 2017

Been suffering from a terrible pain in my right heel the past few days. I finally broke down and went to see a podiatrist. Seems his diagnosis was an inflamed tendon - extension of the achilles tendon where it attaches to the heel of the foot. His solution - he takes out several vials of medicines (steriods but I don't remember the chemical names) and pulls out a very, very long needled syringe and begins filling up the syringe. As he was getting ready to put the needle into another vial, I stood up and said, "...ya know, doc, my heel is feeling much better - I can walk, see...!" He looked up at me and commanded me to sit back down on his reclining patient table and said, "...be a nice boy and do as I say - OK?" I sat back down and he sprayed my right heel with this extremely cold topical anesthetic and then plunged that, what seemed like, 3 inch needle into the heel of my foot.

He then said to do exercises to stretch my right Achilles tendon. He wanted me to make sure I checked my blood sugar frequently as these steroids tend to increase blood sugars in diabetics.

I tell you, I just don't get any breaks in life - regarding my health, that is.

On Monday, I have to go down to the hospital where I had my surgery for a CT-Scan with contrast of my pelvis, abdomen and liver. The doctors wanted me to have it done at their hospital so they could have the transplant team radiologists see the films firsthand rather than from a CD. Got my fingers crossed that they don't find anything, but if they do, that it can be fixed.

Just need a few breaks in my health!

suydam · January 2017

Did you have a transplant? I missed that somewhere in your health saga. That kind of heel pain is very common. Stretching exercises hurt like hell but they are the cure if you keep at it. Probably gave you a steroid injection to calm down the inflammation. Good luck!

thebean · January 2017

fintail said:

I could have pride in a repetitive assembly line job if I was working say in the AMG engine factory or even on the MB line (in Sindelfingen). There's also job rotation, and I suspect the bennies are pretty decent in that first worldest of first world areas, too. Usually on German-made cars, the build quality doesn't disappoint. Bleeding edge beta testing engineering is often what gets to people.

Usually is the optimum word here. Maybe they have improved, but both my 1996 C280 and my 1999 E320 had quite a lot of little defects that spoiled the ownership experience. Maybe I should have considered it an omen when I was driving my E320 home from the dealership for the first time and tried to adjust the drivers seat at a red light and the entire adjustment mechanism (the one shaped like a seat) fell into the door panel. It wasn't secured properly at the factory. There was nothing major during the time I owned it - never stranded me - but lots of smaller things that required trips to the dealership. So, pardon me if I'm not a fan of German cars. I know this is a minuscule sample, but it was my experiences.

thebean · January 2017

stickguy said:

Bradd, good luck to the kids. Just don't expect to win the special "best aesthetic" prize! Might get the Colin Chapman function over form award though.

Wow! Meow!! Kinda catty.

abacomike · January 2017

suydam said:

Did you have a transplant? I missed that somewhere in your health saga. That kind of heel pain is very common. Stretching exercises hurt like hell but they are the cure if you keep at it. Probably gave you a steroid injection to calm down the inflammation. Good luck!

No transplant - but the transplant surgeon and team did the liver resection to remove the malignant tumor. The surgeon I use is a liver specialist - came from Cleveland Clinic and is now heading up the liver transplant team at Broward Health Medical Center in Ft. Lauderdale.

suydam · January 2017

I had my kidney transplant at the Cleveland Clinic. Wonderful place.

andres3 · January 2017

abacomike said:
Been suffering from a terrible pain in my right heel the past few days. I finally broke down and went to see a podiatrist. Seems his diagnosis was an inflamed tendon - extension of the achilles tendon where it attaches to the heel of the foot. His solution - he takes out several vials of medicines (steriods but I don't remember the chemical names) and pulls out a very, very long needled syringe and begins filling up the syringe. As he was getting ready to put the needle into another vial, I stood up and said, "...ya know, doc, my heel is feeling much better - I can walk, see...!" He looked up at me and commanded me to sit back down on his reclining patient table and said, "...be a nice boy and do as I say - OK?" I sat back down and he sprayed my right heel with this extremely cold topical anesthetic and then plunged that, what seemed like, 3 inch needle into the heel of my foot.

He then said to do exercises to stretch my right Achilles tendon. He wanted me to make sure I checked my blood sugar frequently as these steroids tend to increase blood sugars in diabetics.

I tell you, I just don't get any breaks in life - regarding my health, that is.

On Monday, I have to go down to the hospital where I had my surgery for a CT-Scan with contrast of my pelvis, abdomen and liver. The doctors wanted me to have it done at their hospital so they could have the transplant team radiologists see the films firsthand rather than from a CD. Got my fingers crossed that they don't find anything, but if they do, that it can be fixed.

Just need a few breaks in my health!

As much as you spent on that BMW you'd think they'd maybe offer some free Nursing to go with the car. I might take attractive nurses to help with all ailments over the free maintenance.

fintail · January 2017

I think things have definitely improved, and some of the IQ stats show it. Many see W210-W220 era as kind of the dark ages for the brand (although there's no shortage of them on the road all these years later). There were definitely issues - 202s and 210s like yours also have a rep for rust in harsh climates.

thebean said:

Usually is the optimum word here. Maybe they have improved, but both my 1996 C280 and my 1999 E320 had quite a lot of little defects that spoiled the ownership experience. Maybe I should have considered it an omen when I was driving my E320 home from the dealership for the first time and tried to adjust the drivers seat at a red light and the entire adjustment mechanism (the one shaped like a seat) fell into the door panel. It wasn't secured properly at the factory. There was nothing major during the time I owned it - never stranded me - but lots of smaller things that required trips to the dealership. So, pardon me if I'm not a fan of German cars. I know this is a minuscule sample, but it was my experiences.

driver100 · January 2017

jmonroe said:

andres3 said:

jmonroe said:

andres3 said:

graphicguy said:
Andres....that's unacceptable. But, more a testament to the body shop's laziness than anything else.
Glad you said something @graphicguy

Thought I was maybe going crazy because someone in the SD Audi Club seeing the same pictures said maybe I was giving VAG too much credit, as the alignment looked rather "stock." Maybe they were being sarcastic?? They own a Golf R so maybe they don't realize Audi has higher standards than VW. Some VW buyer's do fool themselves into thinking they are getting cheaper Audi's

I know that Audi employs a QC manager that is doing the job just the way I'd do it personally, as being in the SoCal Audi Club, I had access to view about eight or nine S4's, more than you'd probably find visiting 3 dealerships (I visited one too), by going to a single club event. You can bet I checked the alignment of trim on doors on both sides of all those S4's, and all of them aligned perfectly just like the other side of mine that hadn't been messed with outside of Ingolstadt.

The only example they could show me of misalignment was an A4 on the body shop lot, that of course, had been crashed!
I too would be upset with the workmanship you showed in your pics.

If closing the gap along one edge opens it on the opposite edge, that would tell me that the part used may not have been a factory part but rather an aftermarket part with less tolerance requirements.

Have you gotten that explained to you? The way I understand insurance repair responsibility is that up to 2 or 3 years, you are entitled to factory parts. That is the way my policy is written.

I mentioned this before:

When Mrs. j's 2012 Legacy went in for a right front fender replacement in June of 2016 due to a hit and run by a truck in a parking lot, I watched the dealers estimator guy take at least a dozen pics all the way around her car. When I asked why so many pics the guy said, "this car is in great shape and is beyond the point where new parts have to be used, but these pics will show that this car is deserving of factory parts and your insurance company is one of the best ones so I'm pretty sure they will authorize factory parts when they see these pics". He was right, my insurance company authorized factory parts and the fit was like it was when I bought the car.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

jmonroe
The hood fitting issues were definitely poor alignment and poor installation. Narrow gap on one side, wide gap on the other (along with maybe a tweak of 1 or 2 degrees off angle). Perhaps contributing a bit to it, the front fender may also not have been quite pushed in exactly like it should have been creating the larger fender to hood gap (in part at least). They definitely used OEM parts, at least according to all the documentation; the car was only 4 months old.

They even approved "color wet sanding" as the paint condition "warranted it." But just because the insurance company approves the procedures to do the work correctly, doesn't mean it'll get completed correctly.

I'm sure there are some cases where the insurance is to blame as much or more than the body shop, but this isn't one of them.

OK, I understand your situation.

If nothing else, you now know where not to go for any future body work.

jmonroe

I read all of this one 100%.

And I agree 100%

(I even read the prior one and agree 100%, thanks for the brevity. I have a busy day)

driver100 · January 2017

thebean said:

stickguy said:

Bradd, good luck to the kids. Just don't expect to win the special "best aesthetic" prize! Might get the Colin Chapman function over form award though.

Wow! Meow!! Kinda catty.

Or honest.

He said it as politely as possible.

You got to admit, "function seemed more important than form", nothing wrong with that...just a fact.

OTOH.....Personally, I like one that looks more like this:

driver100 · January 2017

thebean said:

fintail said:

I could have pride in a repetitive assembly line job if I was working say in the AMG engine factory or even on the MB line (in Sindelfingen). There's also job rotation, and I suspect the bennies are pretty decent in that first worldest of first world areas, too.

Usually on German-made cars, the build quality doesn't disappoint. Bleeding edge beta testing engineering is often what gets to people.

Usually is the optimum word here. Maybe they have improved, but both my 1996 C280 and my 1999 E320 had quite a lot of little defects that spoiled the ownership experience. Maybe I should have considered it an omen when I was driving my E320 home from the dealership for the first time and tried to adjust the drivers seat at a red light and the entire adjustment mechanism (the one shaped like a seat) fell into the door panel. It wasn't secured properly at the factory. There was nothing major during the time I owned it - never stranded me - but lots of smaller things that required trips to the dealership. So, pardon me if I'm not a fan of German cars. I know this is a minuscule sample, but it was my experiences.

Fair enough. And so, what do you drive now Mr. Bean

?

And why and how are they performing? Late 90s weren't the best of times for many makes.

abacomike · January 2017

@thebean

The data shows that the mid 90's to mid 2000's was one of the worst periods in the history of the Mercedes Benz name when it comes to the production of quality automobiles. Electrical issues led the pack in terms of recurring problems followed closely behind by poor quality control. A friend of mine was the GM of a Mercedes dealership on the west coast of Florida and his stories about the number of lemon law petitions he had to deal with for a small dealership would stand your hair on your head straight up! He couldn't wait to move down here and get away from Mercedes.

Today's Mercedes Benz vehicles are top notch as are most German imports - quality wise! But so are most automobiles, no matter where they are manufactured. Except for one major issue I had with the 2008 5 series BMW, my German cars have been truly outstanding!!!

laurasdada · January 2017

My son's Soapbox derby cars won no design awards. But, using legal tricks I learned, they did (the last couple of years) finish in the top 3, winning the final year! The last year, our "car" was nicknamed, "The Flying Boat."

Friction is the enemy...

A Hooters will soon be opening next to my Tesla dealer. Just thought you'd like to know.

laurasdada · January 2017

Oh, yeah. Jag has been in the shop over a week (shades of GG), but new steering column arrived yesterday. They expect it to be ready Thursday. I continue to drive the loaner LR Disco and not like it. But I am using it to move furniture! At least Jag will come home clean!

Actually, as I need new rear brakes very soon, and fronts soon thereafter, having it in the shop is kind of a blessing. Hope to now do rears in February as don't want to add that expense to my new big expense of Patriot/Steelers tickets. What a father won't do for his son.

jmonroe · January 2017

driver100 said:

jmonroe said:

andres3 said:

jmonroe said:

andres3 said:

graphicguy said:
Andres....that's unacceptable. But, more a testament to the body shop's laziness than anything else.
Glad you said something @graphicguy

Thought I was maybe going crazy because someone in the SD Audi Club seeing the same pictures said maybe I was giving VAG too much credit, as the alignment looked rather "stock." Maybe they were being sarcastic?? They own a Golf R so maybe they don't realize Audi has higher standards than VW. Some VW buyer's do fool themselves into thinking they are getting cheaper Audi's

I know that Audi employs a QC manager that is doing the job just the way I'd do it personally, as being in the SoCal Audi Club, I had access to view about eight or nine S4's, more than you'd probably find visiting 3 dealerships (I visited one too), by going to a single club event. You can bet I checked the alignment of trim on doors on both sides of all those S4's, and all of them aligned perfectly just like the other side of mine that hadn't been messed with outside of Ingolstadt.

The only example they could show me of misalignment was an A4 on the body shop lot, that of course, had been crashed!
I too would be upset with the workmanship you showed in your pics.

If closing the gap along one edge opens it on the opposite edge, that would tell me that the part used may not have been a factory part but rather an aftermarket part with less tolerance requirements.

Have you gotten that explained to you? The way I understand insurance repair responsibility is that up to 2 or 3 years, you are entitled to factory parts. That is the way my policy is written.

I mentioned this before:

When Mrs. j's 2012 Legacy went in for a right front fender replacement in June of 2016 due to a hit and run by a truck in a parking lot, I watched the dealers estimator guy take at least a dozen pics all the way around her car. When I asked why so many pics the guy said, "this car is in great shape and is beyond the point where new parts have to be used, but these pics will show that this car is deserving of factory parts and your insurance company is one of the best ones so I'm pretty sure they will authorize factory parts when they see these pics". He was right, my insurance company authorized factory parts and the fit was like it was when I bought the car.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

jmonroe
The hood fitting issues were definitely poor alignment and poor installation. Narrow gap on one side, wide gap on the other (along with maybe a tweak of 1 or 2 degrees off angle). Perhaps contributing a bit to it, the front fender may also not have been quite pushed in exactly like it should have been creating the larger fender to hood gap (in part at least). They definitely used OEM parts, at least according to all the documentation; the car was only 4 months old.

They even approved "color wet sanding" as the paint condition "warranted it." But just because the insurance company approves the procedures to do the work correctly, doesn't mean it'll get completed correctly.

I'm sure there are some cases where the insurance is to blame as much or more than the body shop, but this isn't one of them.

OK, I understand your situation.

If nothing else, you now know where not to go for any future body work.

jmonroe
I read all of this one 100%.

And I agree 100%

(I even read the prior one and agree 100%, thanks for the brevity. I have a busy day)

I'm proud of you.

jmonroe

Mr_Shiftright · January 2017

laurasdada said:
My son's Soapbox derby cars won no design awards. But, using legal tricks I learned, they did (the last couple of years) finish in the top 3, winning the final year! The last year, our "car" was nicknamed, "The Flying Boat."

Friction is the enemy...

A Hooters will soon be opening next to my Tesla dealer. Just thought you'd like to know.

Now there's a clash of cultures.

abacomike · January 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:

My son's Soapbox derby cars won no design awards. But, using legal tricks I learned, they did (the last couple of years) finish in the top 3, winning the final year! The last year, our "car" was nicknamed, "The Flying Boat." Friction is the enemy... A Hooters will soon be opening next to my Tesla dealer. Just thought you'd like to know.
Now there's a clash of cultures.

To offer a pun - "SHOCKING"!!!

oldfarmer50 · January 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:

laurasdada said:
My son's Soapbox derby cars won no design awards. But, using legal tricks I learned, they did (the last couple of years) finish in the top 3, winning the final year! The last year, our "car" was nicknamed, "The Flying Boat."

Friction is the enemy...

A Hooters will soon be opening next to my Tesla dealer. Just thought you'd like to know.
Now there's a clash of cultures.

Not at all. Shorter distance to go pick up girls.

abacomike · January 2017

It's been 8 hours since the podiatrist put steroids into my heel of my right foot - it's like a miracle. The pain is almost completely gone. Good diagnosis, to be sure and the correct treatment. I hope it lasts while I am exercising to stretch that tendon. I caught a break - finally!

isellhondas · January 2017

abacomike said:
It's been 8 hours since the podiatrist put steroids into my heel of my right foot - it's like a miracle. The pain is almost completely gone. Good diagnosis, to be sure and the correct treatment. I hope it lasts while I am exercising to stretch that tendon. I caught a break - finally!

If anyone deserves a break, it's you! May the pain stay away!

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