What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail · February 2017

Profits are awesome, with reasonably ethical operations, un-meddled-with markets, and real consequences when a firm causes trouble. Something not always seen here, especially as we creep towards kleptocracy. VW is probably no worse than most, even with the cheating. Maybe even better than some. The only difference is that they got caught.

I saw a later model ML Bluetec in traffic today, maybe there should be a club.

ruking1 · February 2017

Profits as well as losses are "amoral". It's been apparent to all, the governments (can) steal even more than stuff than even unethically procured. Governments actions are exposed ALL the time! So what? Do you see any to some punishment? No!

In a perfect world, which is what you're describing, it's pretty easy. IF convicted, (of false profits) repay three dollars for each one $. Most criminal repayments are like bankruptcy: pennies on the dollar.

fintail · February 2017

Morals are more subjective, and often relate to ideals that not everyone believes in. The idea of any department of "government accountability" is indeed kind of oxymoronic. And now that government and business will be more closely linked than ever in this new era of trickle down "alternative facts", it won't get better. When you can't get fired, just sit back and enjoy the take, and the platinum bennies. Someone else will pay. And even if convicted, you can pay pennies on the dollar and the son who was gifted your illicit empire can become a credential-and-credibility-free advisor.

I came across this disheartening article again - I suspect it will be true.

ruking1 · February 2017

Your first sentence is aligned with what I was saying.

Government unions help to make " accountability" all but anathema.

Firing the acting head of the Justice Department seemed to have been a pretty good start, which is one contradiction of the assertion! It just needs to get FAR deeper into the FAT!

But yeah, start @ the top! Cut President, Senate/House salaries 50%, along with pensions. This is in line with that old (republic/democratic) value of citizen/occupation.

Here is just one notion that shows how stupid government has become. Institution of a no exemption draft to do "government service". Most aren't even aware there was, is, remains a male only, sexist military draft that can still be pulled off the shelf via selective service agency.

MB as well as VW needs to each grow a pair! The current administration has pledged to scale back choking EPA regulations. There may have been auto on capitulation because both thought the $15,000 robed/pant suited wearer would've won!

fintail · February 2017

Not just house/senate perks need to be cut. Make public sector pensions reflect the average ROI earned by private sector investors, instead of the windfall it can be now. Same for retirement ages.

The current regime also pledged to drain the swamp. LOOOOOOOOL. Never been more proud of a Seattle-based judge than I am now. Someone's going to expire from stress.

MB probably wants to be sure there's enough demand to make federalization and marketing efforts worthwhile.

ruking1 · February 2017

Yup! Seattle is a great place to host violent protests! Some travel types can do a vacation package!

Seattle can make itself into the Disneyland of violent protest! In the meantime, send the refugees to say places like Detroit Pump that/those place to its former glory1.75 M + residents from its current app 677,000. Make even new glories.

fintail · February 2017

Probably safer here than in many of the southern or heartland cities

And if it makes a certain someone overheat, all the better.

ruking1 · February 2017

If the lefties keeps "lefting", the 2nd four years is/are/remain a slam dunk! IF the party now in power stays "customer" focused, a 3rd four years are another no brainer. They also need to stop telling the (now) minority party what they did to lose!

Shoot by that time, diesels might be 6% of the PVF! Woo Hoo!

fintail · February 2017

If a certain someone lasts that long. Not to mention dismal ratings and no legitimate plans for the promised economic rebirth might leave an already bitter (and often spoiled) populace even more so. The sore winners should beware of a backlash rather than sticking to alternative facts.

At this rate, there won't be any new diesel passenger cars in another 10 years. It might make older ones valuable, anyway.

ruking1 · February 2017

fintail said:
If a certain someone lasts that long. Not to mention dismal ratings and no legitimate plans for the promised economic rebirth might leave an already bitter (and often spoiled) populace even more so. The sore winners should beware of a backlash rather than sticking to alternative facts.

At this rate, there won't be any new diesel passenger cars in another 10 years. It might make older ones valuable, anyway.

Yup! (most) EVERYBODY said that VERY same thing !!! So what, & he still won!!?? You also are discounting that a huge minority to unknown majority of Republicans didn't & still don't like to hate him also! ? And some folks might know: the %'s were 45.9% vs 48% of the popular vote! Dead folks & all?

For my one vote, (non electrorial college) new diesels are baked into the cake. While due diligence was done on all four model diesels, it remains to be seen if I can get the resale deals gotten for each of the "affected" ones!?

As I have posted before, gassers gasser hybrids have never been able, can NOT meet the 2025 54.5 mpg standard, aka 40 mpg fleet, model year avg., which really means less than 21 mpg real world for GM, FIAT, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, etc., "light trucks" . Diesels even in punishing situations, do a minimum of 30% better. It's more than apparent why hybrids are not put in gasser light trucks?!

While the 2017 MB GLC is both an appealing and great (compact) CUV, no diesel option can be a deal breaker, even with the 9 speed AT mated to the 2.0 L gasser.

So for me, the 6 speed auto transmission (vs 7,8,9 speed) can be a deal breaker in the 2017 Jaguar F-Pace ( compact CUV)

But you are right about higher value for like model TDI's. I saw.on Edmunds.com, a 2014 MB GLK 250 BT used offered for approximately $ 600 less than what was paid new. The 2003 JEtta TDI is still the iconic model & year.

So while some to all hosts are tasked to get the "politics" out of this tread, the facts are they are INTEGRAL to the diesel discussion: i.e. The EPA writing has been on the wall for @ least the past 8 years.

fintail · February 2017

That's enough political chatter based on alternative facts for me. All I can say is that we will see. The Simpsons predicted this, and also predicted a blond woman would be elected president to clean it up

Maybe my Bluetec will be a collectible someday. I suspect diesel fuel will always be around due to commercial use, which won't go away in the lifetime of anyone old enough to read this. I have no doubt it could be a 300K+ mile car, so long as the electronics hold up. Otherwise, just do the maintenance and enjoy the gentle purr of the little diesel engine.

gagrice · February 2017

ruking: While the 2017 MB GLC is both an appealing and great (compact) CUV, no diesel option can be a deal breaker, even with the 9 speed AT mated to the 2.0 L gasser.

So for me, the 6 speed auto transmission (vs 7,8,9 speed) can be a deal breaker in the 2017 Jaguar F-Pace ( compact CUV)

I am with you on the GLC gasser, not even worth test driving. According to Jaguar the F-Pace 20d is standard with 8-speed Electronic Automatic Transmission with Jaguar Sequential Shift.

http://rules.config.jaguar.com/jdx/en_us/f-pace_k17/3dt2e/a-20d-180aawd_a-crossover_jt0/jdxmodel.html

GM has dropped the ball on their diesel CUV offerings with a six speed auto. I fear their 1.6L diesel may be a bit enemic for the smallish CUV. Not sure why they are not offering the 9 speed that is used in the gas models.

ruking1 · February 2017

I got the information from the Edmunds.com site, research. So if true about Jaguar F- Pace 8 speed, it should stand corrected! I'm still waiting on wife's colleagues F -Pace take.

kyfdx · February 2017

We are going to take a break from this discussion. Not much diesel talk, here.

ruking1 · February 2017

We've been talking about diesel almost the whole time! However diesel niche markets have been are & could remain, they are baked into the cake for @ least the next 4 to 8 years!

xwesx · February 2017

I'm looking at a Q7 TDI. Curious, Gary, King. Do your VWs have spare tires? If so, were they optional or standard equipment? Apparently, they are optional on the Q7, and almost none were "opted" with the tire. Seems strange to me.

fintail · February 2017

I wonder if the Adblue tank sits in the tire well, so you either got runflats, a kit, or an optional extra cost spare located somewhere in the rear.

My E250 has runflats, and if I keep the car, I will change them out asap, risking it with a kit or even a tire in the trunk.

xwesx · February 2017

For some Audi vehicles, run flats are OEM. Since the spare was "optional" on the Q7, it does not have run flats, but instead a sealer/inflator kit. I have not laid eyes on one, but it really doesn't matter how comprehensive the "fix" kit is if you have a blow out. Thankfully, the last time I had a blowout was in May 2003 on a 1975-era boat trailer, and the tire was a bias ply tire likely as old as the trailer with "Montgomery Ward" stamped on it. I am hoping this means that a blowout is an extremely unlikely event, and does NOT mean I am due!

fintail · February 2017

I've had two flat tires in my driving life, and I think I recall my parents getting one once when I was a kid. It's not at the top of my worries either. Of course, I probably just jinxed myself, especially on local roads that now have tons of new potholes and ruts thanks to the weather

andres3 · February 2017

fintail said:
I've had two flat tires in my driving life, and I think I recall my parents getting one once when I was a kid. It's not at the top of my worries either. Of course, I probably just jinxed myself, especially on local roads that now have tons of new potholes and ruts thanks to the weather

Construction sites have a way of contributing nails and screws to our roadways. I've had my share of punctures, but only two "remotely quick" emergency air releases; still not quite a blowout, but the air left very quickly. One of these happened recently on a track due to bad track maintenance, and a 30 series sidewall tire.

ruking1 · February 2017

xwesx said:
I'm looking at a Q7 TDI. Curious, Gary, King. Do your VWs have spare tires? If so, were they optional or standard equipment? Apparently, they are optional on the Q7, and almost none were "opted" with the tire. Seems strange to me.

Short answers: Yes, 2012 VW Touareg TDI standard equipment, non optional space saver spare tires! For a host of reasons, the full sized oem tire seems to be going extinct. The greater than 5 gal DEF tank opening is in the middle of the spare tire located @ bottom 6 o'clock trunk position.

The longer answers can be TMI & very debatable. They seem to intersect around weight,size, mpg, design, cost, weight.

xwesx · February 2017

Thanks; replies appreciated!

@fintail, I get at least one puncture a year on my vehicles. It is common enough that I have a repair kit in both of my daily drivers... and they have paid for themselves many, many times over. I even fixed a punctured tire for an elderly lady at my church last October. Her tire was nearly flat on arrival. She gave us the key, and we had it all taken care of and on her way when she was ready to leave after service!

Maybe a regular diet of punctures will keep away any possibility of blowouts.

fintail · February 2017

Come to think of it, I forgot an incident - way back when, I ran over a piece of road-colored rebar, which destroyed the tire. Runflats or a kit wouldn't have helped with that.

xwesx said:
Thanks; replies appreciated!

@fintail, I get at least one puncture a year on my vehicles. It is common enough that I have a repair kit in both of my daily drivers... and they have paid for themselves many, many times over. I even fixed a punctured tire for an elderly lady at my church last October. Her tire was nearly flat on arrival. She gave us the key, and we had it all taken care of and on her way when she was ready to leave after service!

Maybe a regular diet of punctures will keep away any possibility of blowouts.

ruking1 · February 2017

Interesting distinction. Most technical data would limit punctured tire travel to 50 miles. It would be an interesting debate between run flats/non. The MB GLK 250 BT is on oem runflats.

xwesx · February 2017

ruking1 said:
Interesting distinction. Most technical data would limit punctured tire travel to 50 miles. It would be an interesting debate between run flats/non. The MB GLK 250 BT is on oem runflats.

Just a general puncture (such as nail) in the tread surface? I have tires that have run for upwards of 50,000 miles with a plug (or several) in them.

andres3 · February 2017

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:
Interesting distinction. Most technical data would limit punctured tire travel to 50 miles. It would be an interesting debate between run flats/non. The MB GLK 250 BT is on oem runflats.
Just a general puncture (such as nail) in the tread surface? I have tires that have run for upwards of 50,000 miles with a plug (or several) in them.

I like Costco's patch and plug combo method. It is interesting that for high speed cars such as Audi they won't allow under the "specifications" a repaired tire because it theoretically reduces the speed rating. However, I've had tire guys vouch they've never had a problem and they "off-road" them for tons of miles.

I'd also vouch that I've "tracked" them with repairs, and never had a problem. But I imagine that 1 in a million increase in risk is what they are trying to avoid covering.

ruking1 · February 2017

It depends how much one thinks the premium is worth for 50 miles of additional range/travel? So for example, The (my) GLK 250 BT (19 in) oem run flats are @ $339. per to replace. In contrast, VERY highly rated tires are approximately $175. per ($164. *4 = $656.) Very seldom does a runflat excel in ANY factors (I) considered important, sans the 50 miles of additional range. I can literally ALMOST buy another set of 4 non run flat tires (short $44, in this case)!? Indeed, common sense dictates a flat be fixed ASAP! The premium is also out of any proportion to any of commonly available options: free road hazard reimbursement, roadside assistance, etc.

While I can tell a difference between run flats on one CUV (compact) versus another (midsized) I've not had the A/B opportunity on the GLK 250 BT.

I've had th misfortune to have to replace tires rather than "patch/plug" being too close to the sidewall.

gagrice · February 2017

One of the negatives to buying the ML350 Bluetec was the runflat OEM tires and no spare. I have used the spare on the Touareg TDI once. I had two flats with the OEM tires. As luck would have it Discount Tire destroyed the tire while repairing the second flat. They could not locate a Goodyear OEM anywhere in the USA. So while they ordered A full set of Michelins that would work I drove for two days on the funny little spare. Seemed to be fine. It is heavy as I pulled it out to fill my Adblue yesterday. I have just over 30k miles on the Michelins. They are quiet handle well, but reduced my MPG by a slight bit. I plan to buy a new set of Pirelli SCORPION VERDE ALL SEASON PLUS on my next trip to Oregon. They are a little less at the Discount Tire in Eugene and no sales tax. That is enough savings to pay for the diesel at least one way. Tire Rack gives the Continental a very slight edge over the above.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+Verde+All+Season+Plus&partnum=65VR9SVASPXL&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Volkswagen&autoYear=2013&autoModel=Touareg&autoModClar=TDI

xwesx · February 2017

LOL, Gary; which Continental are you referring to? When I look at the ratings for the category, the Continental is flat out junk compared to the others! The Verde ASP should be an excellent tire for you - very well rated and an excellent treadwear rating!

I worked out a deal on the Q7 and am looking forward to finalizing things tomorrow morning.

ruking1 · February 2017

I highly suspect that we are not looking at the same data: TireRack's new rating. The Continental Contact LX 20s Plus are rated #4. They are just behind the Pirelli's Verde PLUS @#3. The Michelin LTX rocketed ahead, even as it's been around for a while in other sizes, no doubt after tweaking or redesign. The Alenze wasn't even made in these sizes @ onset, 2012,2013, 2014, 2015, early 2016.

At the same time, the site seems not to be functioning correctly.

xwesx · February 2017

Oh, probably not, then! The tires you mentioned weren't even on the list I saw. I pulled the link that @gagrice shared, then scrolled *way* down to the red "Compare Ratings For All Tires in This Category" link. Clicking that, it brought up this for me:

Performance Category: Crossover/SUV Touring All-Season

gagrice · February 2017

Quite a step up from a Subaru. That VW TDI must have really bitten you good.

xwesx said:
LOL, Gary; which Continental are you referring to? When I look at the ratings for the category, the Continental is flat out junk compared to the others! The Verde ASP should be an excellent tire for you - very well rated and an excellent treadwear rating!

I worked out a deal on the Q7 and am looking forward to finalizing things tomorrow morning.

gagrice · February 2017

Is this a new Q7 or used?

The new Continental Contact LX 20s Plus highly rated tires are not available in my size. Reading some of the consumer reviews I wonder about them. I have my mind set on the Pirelli tires this time. I still have good tread depth on the Michelins with over 25k miles. Just looked at my spreadsheet. The OEM Goodyears had 15k miles when the one tire was damaged. Probably easy 15k miles of safe driving left on the Michelins.

ruking1 · February 2017

Bottom lines, check the TR & other that one trusts latest ratings,

Tire Rack actually used Porsche Cayennes (closest to Touareg set up) to do their testing. Almost all of each tires' responses are from folks with other vehicles.

I also had the OEM Goodyears'. They were actually made in Germany. I was fine with them even as other Cayenne, Touareg owners didn't rate them highly, nor @ the time were the Pirelli Verdes.

I'm just fine with the Continental LX 20s. It was based on Tire Rack's & others & local tire guru ratings at the time.

xwesx · February 2017

gagrice said:
Quite a step up from a Subaru. That VW TDI must have really bitten you good.

Hahah; yes it did! I really enjoyed that Passat, and I fully planned on getting a Flex, so I sort of look at this vehicle as a hybrid of the two.

gagrice · February 2017

Ruking: I'm just fine with the Continental LX 20s. It was based on Tire Rack's & others & local tire guru ratings at the time.

I see the LX 20s are available in your 18" size. You have far more choices than I do with the 19" Lux wheels. 58 different tires for your 2012 Touareg, only 21 tires for my 2013.

xwesx · February 2017

gagrice said:
Ruking: I'm just fine with the Continental LX 20s. It was based on Tire Rack's & others & local tire guru ratings at the time.

I see the LX 20s are available in your 18" size. You have far more choices than I do with the 19" Lux wheels. 58 different tires for your 2012 Touareg, only 21 tires for my 2013.

Ugh, yes, and this Q7 has 20" wheels. Not excited about that aspect, actually. Tires are ~1,000-1,200. JUST tires...

ruking1 · February 2017

When new, the 2014 MB GLK 250 BT had very few tire choices ( no surprise!? ). However, I'm trying to choose among: 1. Michelin Premier LTX 2. Pirelli Scorpian Verde PLUS 3.Michelin MXV4 4. Bridgestone Dueler HL Alenza. There now are surprisingly stellar alternatives in the oem (235/50/19 in) size offerings ! ! The prices seem to have also come down ($180 per or less $169.) it seems like the long time Bridgestone Alenza has kept up in this segment and has been "a go to " brand and model.

I was not & am still not a fan of the bigger (18,19,20 up ) tires & silly aspect ratios. 16 in to 17 in tires would have probably been just fine. But then, it's hard to give up the closer to 1 G handling (.84G app) .

ruking1 · February 2017

I went for a ride in my friends ML blue tec. The (midsized CUV) size feels slightly smaller than the 2012 VW Touareg TDI.

ruking1 · February 2017

I went for a ride in my friend's mid sized CUV 3.0 L MB blue tec. He's absolutely loving it ! It's not hard to see & know why! We didn't get an opportunity to test the 455# ft of torque.

The (midsized CUV) interior dimensions felt smaller than the mid sized 3.0 L 2012 VW Touareg TDI, especially in the seating & legroom areas. It seemed to have a larger trunk space.

I was surprised to find out that the (2014 MB GLK 250 BT 235/50/19 in) CUV tires were not much more expensive ($43. per/$172 set) than the 205/55/16 in tires (2009 VW Jetta TDI) !?

ruking1 · February 2017

Slow diesel news day!

I don't want to fight potential traffic jams on the way up/down out of the now closed ( highway 50) to all, but resident traffic: South Lake Tahoe, CA. Landslides (caused by liquefaction) continue blocking both directions of Highway 50.

To the west of Lake Tahoe CA Oroville.... , https://www.yahoo.com/news/mass-evacuation-ordered-california-dam-weakened-rain-103724417.html Do you really want CA environmental conservatives in charge of making the policies?, of the same stripes that are trying to kill diesels! I guess in the late 50's, 1960, Eco conservatives didn't believe that S~~T rolled downp hill! ? They still now believe in droughts caused by "global warming! Well guys & gals, guess what ? Circa 2017, ...it certainly does! Dam !??http://www.latices.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-oroville-dam-crisis-20170213-story,amp.html?ref=yfp

andres3 · February 2017

The global warming must be melting all that snow and ice into water.

ruking1 · February 2017

Well a simple question might be: do they (REALLY) want another (10,000 to 15,000 years ago) ICE age?

kyfdx · February 2017

Back to diesel vehicles, please

gagrice · February 2017

So Piech will not testify about dieselgate.

Ex-Volkswagen (OTCPK:VLKAY) Chairman Ferdinand Piech, who resigned after a showdown with former chief executive Martin Winterkorn, has refused to testify to German lawmakers investigating a possible government's role in Dieselgate.

A Bild am Sonntag report last week said Piech had informed top directors at VW about potential cheating with diesel emissions tests in the U.S. six months before the scandal became public in September 2015.

http://seekingalpha.com/news/3242724-piech-refuses-testify-dieselgate-probe

gagrice · February 2017

VW can put every tech device known to man in their vehicles, without a diesel powerplant I am not interested.

This afternoon MBLY and Volkswagen announced a plan to implement a navigation standard for autonomous vehicle (AV) driving beginning in 2018 as future Volkswagen models will use MBLY's camera-based map and localization technology, Road Experience Management (or REM). Signed February 10th, Volkswagen and Mobileye will jointly collect data to develop a high-definition mapping solution through vehicles equipped with front cameras. As these sensor equipped vehicles acquire road specific details (lane markings, road signs, etc.), data will be compressed into a cloud and used for real-time localization and precision mapping. Jefferies notes no financial details were provided in the release.

http://smartstocknews.com/43585-mobileye-nv-mbly-and-volkswagen-ag-adr-vlkay-announce-agreement-to-use-rem/

ruking1 · February 2017

http://blog.caranddriver.com/as-vw-tdi-buyback-spawns-shifty-cottage-industry-heres-what-consumers-need-to-know/?ref=yfp

C & D says Cottage Industry?

52 mpg!?!

http://blog.caranddriver.com/tdi-tonic-chevrolet-cruze-diesel-sedan-gets-up-to-52-mpg/?ref=yfp

The 2003 VW Jetta TDI already beats the real world 2025 real world 40 mpg by 12 mpg.

xwesx · February 2017

ruking1 said:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/as-vw-tdi-buyback-spawns-shifty-cottage-industry-heres-what-consumers-need-to-know/?ref=yfp

LOL Shifty Cottage Industry. Hah!

These cars are coming off the road no matter who owns them, so this is just supply and demand. As long as there are people willing to sell the cars for less than the buyback value, people ARE going to buy them! The shifty folks, perhaps even scammers, are the ones stripping the cars before the buyback appointment.

ruking1 · February 2017

In the European markets,GM is getting " killed" literally & for this discussion, figuratively. (Opel, Vauxhall ) It is so bad that GM is voluntarily leaving European markets. So while the VW "diesel gate" brouhaha continues to reverberate, it really masks the GM giants European demise. So while it might seem counterintuitive through the "Alice in Wonderland" looking glass, paybacks (to world auto oem) are the proverbial "B".

It will take many years to appreciably alter the greater than 70% diesel sales, let alone decrease the greater than 50% PVF. Meanwhile, GM falls to a distant third, while VW solidifies its #1 slot & has an Am market "toehold" of app 2.5%.

fintail · February 2017

GM in Europe, especially the UK, is somewhat like GM in the US 20 years ago - overwhelmed by the competition. To some levels the French and Japanese have invaded that market, and the Germans have used it as a venue for revenge for 1945. In Europe, dieselgate seems to be nothing more than a murmur, and VW still sells all it can build. Hybrids and EVs have gained mostly via social engineering.

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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