What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

You may have inadvertently left out the Japanese, (fill US oem void) as part of the 1945 revenge scheme?

I wonder what it is saying about (European) GM (management hired by labor- unions/ union pension funds nation-state, etc ) when both the French and VW (with barely a 2 % profit margin- $1.00 revenue yields $.02 in profit ) are "wildly" more competitive?

But in any event, I'll begin the search for @ least one replacement TDI, new or used (compact/mid size CUV), &/or combination. The TDI niche market actually winow the eligible candidate/s. I actually wish the (TDI) sedans were more adapted to our needs/wants. It would expand the pool. Not that I need or want another vehicle, nor do I look forward to car shopping (no disrespect, edmunds.com) , but GOT to love the IRS section 179, after candidate selection/s !!

fintail

The Japanese have definitely enacted revenge in the US, but not as much in Europe. It's amazing how long you can spend driving in Germany and not see a Lexus.

The French and VW are also heavily unionized and have significant nationalized backing. They've just done a more thorough job at marketing their products than Euro/UK GM - as their products aren't always better.

ruking1

I (for one) do not closely follow the EU auto OEM's consumer marketing efforts. Anybody can check this anywhere, but it appears that GM (corporate) is far more profitable than either the French or VW!

That is probably why US markets are important to VW (corporate). Indeed, Audi & Porsche bring in WAY more percentage profit over far FEWER cars than the VW brand. One article I read has one "AVG" Porsche bringing in more profit than a loaded US pick up truck at $16,000 + per unit.

The EU's PVF in addition to being > than 51% diesel has a greater # of units than US markets (2014 274.8 M) . Of course, I would probably follow more closely, if I lived in for 6/12 mo or did direct business in the EU.

For US market purposes, it really doesn't matter much because whatever (like model) American iteration they happen to be, it almost certainly will not be the same as in the EU. To wit, EU: 1 to 4 diesel engine options US: 1.

gagrice

Ruking: That is probably why US markets are important to VW (corporate). Indeed, Audi & Porsche bring in WAY more percentage profit over far FEWER cars than the VW brand. One article I read has one "AVG" Porsche bringing in more profit than a loaded US pick up truck at $16,000 + per unit.

Especially with Porsche there is no real competition. They are literally the best Sports car you can buy at any level. You got a million bucks to spend Porsche has a car for you. The d3 are pretty much fighting over the Pickup truck market in the US. All three would be bankrupt without PU and SUV sales.

Speaking of no competitive product. I followed a fairly new VW Beetle convertible TDI yesterday. She is going to have a hard time finding anything that compares when and if she has to sell it back to the company. At least there are still a few choices for those of US with SUVs.

ruking1

Those are very good points!

One of the de facto consequences is the fact that the small car PVF is shrinking from an estimated 23%. Again, IF that is true, that puts "larger cars to light trucks" PVF @77%.PLUS. Another no-brainer: diesel engines for SUVs to light truck sales!!! Gassers and gas hybrids have already proved that they cannot move the MPG needle forward.

Another to wit: there are large large 2016 inventories of small cars, aka, let's make great deals to move the products.

ruking1

Slow diesel news day!

37.33 mpg, filled after low fuel lamp lit, (15 gal. 560 miles, 15.6 gal. stated capacity) Fuelly.com pegs 2014 GLK 350 PUG @ 21 mpg.

$2.83 ULSD RUG $2.79/PUG $3.01.

The tire guru was a bit amazed (2014 GLK 250 BT, 5,000 miles tire rotation) @ low, even tire wear @ 45.000 miles, oem run flats (yuck) ? ! Admonished to keep up fantastic work, even if they won't be selling us a replacement set very soon. See us in 4 mo/5,000 miles, next tire rotation. So of course, I had to ask: which brand model would they recommend when needed. We're taking bets @ 75,000 to 85,000 miles. I may change them prematurely just because theyre run flats?

The 2012 Touareg TDI is doing snow board trip duty ! Night time arrival @ 2356 hrs, no chain controls, clear mountain roads, no traffic! The daughter's dog is chilling today with her neighborhood doggie buds. Life is good !

gagrice

OK all you 3.0L TDI owners. Just got this from VW. The settlement is a bit confusing and 54 pages long. Looks like there are several options. For me at the least. If I get a timely repair and $7369 for my inconvenience, I am a happy camper.
If they cannot come up with a timely repair they will buy back my vehicle for $45,978 about what I paid for it new. If they can convince the EPA/CARB on a reduced emissions repair I can take that plus an amount between $11k & $15k. Which means I get to drive it another couple years before making any decision. Who knows what will be available by then?

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/3Liter/Notices/VW 3L Settlement Notice.pdf

ruking1

Jumpin Jiminie ! Too many pages already & confusing! Lots of if/ thens to if thens!? BUT .... CONGRATULATIONS!

In any case, NLT May 1, 2017 seems to be THE last registration date! The VIN was the (web site) entry for sign up information.

From what I can tell, it seems like a tax figure of (of whatever state, theoretically purchased for) the blue book value @ Sept 15, 2015 will be in the calculation/s.

Michaell

@ruking1 @gagrice

Please check out this thread; there are some local experts who have read and parsed the 3.0 TDI agreement paperwork and can probably answer your questions:

https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/41955/volkswagen/x/vw-tdi-settlement-buying-a-tdi-now#latest

houdini1

Sounds like you can't miss no matter what happens. To make it even sweeter I think whatever you get will also be tax free because you are simply being reimbursed for your theoretical losses !

gagrice

houdini1 said:

Sounds like you can't miss no matter what happens. To make it even sweeter I think whatever you get will also be tax free because you are simply being reimbursed for your theoretical losses !

Kind of what I am thinking. Though it would not surprise me to see CA and IRS try to get some of it from US. Especially if they can fix it and give cash to settle claims. I am hoping for a late fix and the $15 grand, hehe. I love the vehicle so much I will be happy with what ever I get. Already spent the $1000 they gave us. No 1099 from VW so assume that was not income.

kyfdx

Also, you might get $1500 more from Bosch.

gagrice

kyfdx said:

Also, you might get $1500 more from Bosch.

It is looking more and more like this was the smartest buy I have ever made in a vehicle. My best buy up to this was a 2005 Passat TDI wagon. Bought it new in Portland Oregon. Made a vacation out of the return to San Diego. Drove it for 13 months and sold it for $3000 more than I paid. Spent $851 on diesel. No tax only $30 Alaska registration. I don't think waiting for Jeep to get their Grand Cherokee diesel to market would have worked out this well. Not much info on their run in with the EPA. Only 4 diesel GC for 2017 listed. They are bottom of the line. I like the Summit in White with brown leather. Jeep website lets you build it with a price of $57k. Just none available. No diesels at all.

ruking1

By far, I'm sure your buy ranks at the highest best/smartest buy/s, sans extreme custom cars/flukes or conditions. I'm happy for you & others!

Shall we add some silliness to the overall equation? If the lot of those were bad, we are talking 1,600 per state "AVERAGE". My guess are most of the 80,000 affected units will get the approved fix/s. Before, during, & after the fix/s this brouhaha are not even measurable in the real world!

Indeed, let me go out on a limb and say if one could wave a magic wand & put ALL 80,000 3.0 L TDI's in LA County area (-80,000 like gassers) , they could not measure the change! Even if they could measure it, it would probably bring the smog level DOWN!

gagrice

I am thinking EPA will be willing to accept a little to settle. Not so sure about CARB. They have never wanted diesels in the state. Mine will be well under the 15K miles per year. I am just over 40k miles after 3.5 yrs. If they drag it past 2018, I will need to make some long trips to get my full value out of the buy back.

xwesx

gagrice said:

I am thinking EPA will be willing to accept a little to settle. Not so sure about CARB. They have never wanted diesels in the state. Mine will be well under the 15K miles per year. I am just over 40k miles after 3.5 yrs. If they drag it past 2018, I will need to make some long trips to get my full value out of the buy back.

There is a mileage adjustment on the buyback value. I'm not sure whether it makes up for the fewer miles driven or not, but it is at least taken in to consideration. On the 2.0L models, the thresholds were 5,000-mile increments. I received $600 more for mine due to miles under 50K, which was the "base" level (50-54,999; above that were deductions, below were additions).

ruking1

Looking backward, present & forward, I am not in a hurry to take the 3.0 L buyback (generous vs any auto oem I've ever dealt with) This is in consideration of the platform ( VW Touareg/Porsche Cayenne ) now 2017 INXS of 15 years old!! This mid sized CUV pretty much fits what I want & use it for to a T. 32/33 mpg?...just icing!

Sure, signed me up yesterday @ the same price, the same or better 406 # ft of torque, trimmed by 500 to 1000 #'s. It's pretty mind blowing to know this new FANTASY) platform would also have to best skidpads of .85 G to .94 G.

Fox news just Indicated LA LA Land, CA, most gridlock in the world ! (Moscow came in # 2.) Yearly loss = $2,500 in wasted time & monies. Needless to say, you're thinking I would probably be crushed?

I rode in the back again of my bil's Acura MDX, five people for 2.5 hours. I got a 21 mpg snap shot of the same South Lake Tahoe trek vs 32/33 mpg. So tthose are 52.4 % to 57.1 % better.

Looking forward to diesels, it would seem TBD Mercedes-Benz "d"s would be both the new platforms and futuristic 4,6 cylinder diesel power plants? I've read it's more of a pollutant scrubbing factory.

ruking1

An interesting article was posted in the Wall Street Journal : the USA CONSUMES only 8/9% of oil world wide. Another eco conservative myth.... busted!? The deeper truth: it's been this way for a long time!? When combined with the USA being the King Kong of oil, natural gas, coal & nuclear! ......

ruking1

Actually, eia.gov confirms the WSJ low consumption posting. Here's a faq. http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/index.cfm#diesel

In the (diesel) FAQ http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=327&t=9 : Here is that (42 gal) barrel of oil ratio: 19 gal gasoline 12/13 gal diesel.

andres3

I'd buy one of those old R8 diesel race cars that won the 24 Hours of LeMan many years; at the right price of course, and then I'd have to figure out how to get the State to let me drive it; probably after passing some kind of made up smog test.

gagrice

Looks like the Chevy Cruze diesel may be a winner for GM. The dealers are expecting them any day on the lots. EPA highway mileage 52 MPG with the manual transmission. The nine speed auto is only 47 MPG, which is strange. Our old buddy Rocky is ready to trade his 2014 Cruze diesel on the new one. For all those folks that want diesel with a stick shift Chevy is delivering them at a darn good price.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1108848_2017-chevrolet-cruze-diesel-hits-52-mpg-will-anyone-buy-it

ruking1

Well the diesel smog test has been "made up" for a while! The last time I went in they were happy to take the money, but told me they didn't see why it was necessary. All they did was hook up the computer, tell me to press the accelerator a few times to see if there's smoke: bata bing!

ruking1

Indeed a lot of people really don't care to understand the numbers; that it really doesn't quite matter how many AT speeds. The manual transmission, even after all these years still trumps the AT, for any of reasons. One example is the parasitic drag on an MT is approximately I 12% +., an AT @ 22 % +. But if one is going to get a proper MT, I'd put the OEM's on notice; @ least a 7 speed is preferred. . I also think it's going to be fairly & consistently easy to get better than 52 mpg , even in this areas only 4th congested place in the world.

gagrice

Rocky claims his last trip to see his kids he got 60 MPG one way and 50 on the return leg. He loves his Cruze diesel. Only thing he would rather have is a Tesla S. Champagne taste on a Pabst budget.

ruking1

Indeed! To me it demonstrates diesel presents a minimum of 30% mpg advantage over gasoline ( among many others) across many to all applications. The diesel in each application is even more versatile in scaleability than gassers. The MASSIVE barrel on oil savings both volume & % would be a 40% gasoline/60% diesel PVF. So in line with the Eco Conservatives logic, they are not close to approaching serious until there is a massive push to those percentages.

Michaell

ruking1 said:

Indeed! To me it demonstrates that diesel presents a minimum of 30% mpg advantage ( among many others) across many to all applications. Each the diesel in each application is even more versatile in scaleability than gassers.

In your opinion, why is the take rate of diesels so low in the US?

Is it:

1) people don't care about fuel economy
2) people are predisposed to think that diesel is "dirty" or "slow"
3) ignorance about the benefits of diesel
4) that diesel isn't offered in the types of cars that people want to buy (small SUV's, mainly)

Curious as to what you and @gagrice think.

slorenzen

All the stories I'm hearing our of California makes me think y'all need diesel BOATS down there...

andres3

slorenzen said:

All the stories I'm hearing our of California makes me think y'all need diesel BOATS down there...

What is the take rate on water-based vehicles for diesel vs. Unleaded Gasoline?

Will jet fuel ever be changed to diesel?

ruking1

Funny how Gov "Flood beam" ain't pushing "the LACK of CA H20 due to global warming " of late!

The profoundly profane pornograhic waste of CA (non salt) water resources is being hidden in plain sight!!!!

xwesx

@Michaell - all of the above!

I thought that #2, in particular, was a total farce, but after my wife parroted that exact thing when I first suggested a diesel.... I was a believer!

As much as she refuses to admit it, I think she was softened on her anti-diesel stance by the Passat.

As for the Cruze.... I'm a big fan of hatches; I'm a big fan of AWD. Both of these things make it less likely for me to consider one, but I do (very much) like that they are offering it with an MT this time around!

It's more likely for me to consider something like the Equinox with a diesel, just because those small/mid-size SUVs are a far more versatile vehicle, but I am certain they have no interest in transferring that MT over to those offerings.

gagrice

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Indeed! To me it demonstrates that diesel presents a minimum of 30% mpg advantage ( among many others) across many to all applications. Each the diesel in each application is even more versatile in scaleability than gassers.

In your opinion, why is the take rate of diesels so low in the US?

Is it:

1) people don't care about fuel economy
2) people are predisposed to think that diesel is "dirty" or "slow"
3) ignorance about the benefits of diesel
4) that diesel isn't offered in the types of cars that people want to buy (small SUV's, mainly)

Curious as to what you and @gagrice think.

I would say 3 & 4 are the main reasons. EU encouraged diesels with lower tax on diesel fuel to cut CO2.
Our EPA and especially CARB have been anti diesel at least since the early 1980s. EU cut the Sulfur in their diesel before we did. Oil companies are not Pro diesel passenger vehicles. They don't want a glut of gasoline. Kind of a balancing act. Our truck usage of diesel far exceeds Europe.

ruking1

Michaell said:

ruking1 said:

Indeed! To me it demonstrates that diesel presents a minimum of 30% mpg advantage ( among many others) across many to all applications. Each the diesel in each application is even more versatile in scaleability than gassers.

In your opinion, why is the take rate of diesels so low in the US?

Is it:

1) people don't care about fuel economy
2) people are predisposed to think that diesel is "dirty" or "slow"
3) ignorance about the benefits of diesel
4) that diesel isn't offered in the types of cars that people want to buy (small SUV's, mainly)

Curious as to what you and @gagrice think.

Short answers (cocktail banter) : #4, #3, #2, ##1.

Longer (& TMI) answers: Wow, I am thinking it's somewhat along the lines of the 2016 Republican "DRT" candidacy..Almost everybody, both sides of each parties isles included, hates to love & loves to hate DRT. Many were somewhat to TOTALLY surprised by the results. But "DRT" represents 45.9% vs 48% of the voting voters.! As everybody knows he won by the majority of the electoral college. In many ways he won horse racing triple crown, while running Google!? To list all his handicaps would be totally cruel: never drove a horse before, I can't breathe, let alone run, missing lung, leg, can't hear, missing eye, etc., etc.

So even with the 95% + plus gasoline PVF, there are huge gasoline GLUTs (Defacto, ULSD gluts also). It would be massively worse with a 60% diesel PVF!! This might seem like ancient history, but Congress set out for a 10% alternative fuels target. So for example ethanol is another "alternative" fuel. So in effect, Congress created this "horror flick". The search for "Pelosi's scapegoats" are ongoing.

I have even read right now there is a 31 day supply glut. That's with or without decreased downtime due to schedule/unscheduled refinery maintenance. They are literally running out of storage tanks to store refined products.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-buybacks-fill-showrooms-trick-is-getting-owners-to-stay-1487792598

The latest VW post diesel-gate.("apocalypse ") Aka, may everybodies apocaypse go as well!?

ruking1

CORRECTION: DRT should be DJT.

gagrice

I guess the market thinks VW is on the mend. Glad I bought in at $23 when they bottomed out.

Zacks Investment Research upgraded shares of Volkswagen AG (NASDAQ:VLKAY) from a hold rating to a strong-buy rating in a research report released on Wednesday morning. The brokerage currently has $36.00 price target on the stock.

I don't mind making money on their stock. If they don't bring diesel back they won't be able to sell me a new Touareg.

ruking1

Absolutely! When combined with the stocks massive & quick fall, fast & progressive upward gains, life is good! The affected diesel buybacks also shove it in the category: what's not to like?

andres3

ruking1 said:

Absolutely! When combined with the stocks massive & quick fall, fast & progressive upward gains, life is good! The affected diesel buybacks also shove it the category of: what's not to like?

I can say without hesitation, I'm glad we bought the '15 TDI and were involved in the buyback class action lawsuit. Even though someone at VW paid off someone at NADA to place low values on the 2015 models that could have been only months old at the start of the so-called scandal, we still are better off financially and automotively because of the purchase and buyback.

They claim 19,800 miles is just the diesel's break-in period.

ruking1

Another set of CONGRATULATIONS are in order!

You don't make clear who is claiming 19,800 miles are the (2015 VW TDI) diesel break in miles. I have not been keeping up with those changes since the 2003 TDI's: which was then between/about 30,00 to 50,000 miles, (ie., TMI: max cyclinder 550 psi) Mpg would steadily, albeit gently improve till then. So for example, the 2003 TDI posts 50 mpg, 48-52 mpg both 15/14 years & @ 186,000 miles. The 2009 has been rock steady (40 mpg, 38-42) @ app 140,000 miles since @ least 30,000 miles.

ruking1

Without MASSIVE amounts of energy, you couldn't get the variety of (CASTED) wheel bling!? https://youtu.be/LCMs-7K8nLk

(FORGED) aka, WAY more expensive!
https://youtu.be/7xn58aQowBA

ruking1

VW "only" made 2.35% in 2016. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/vw-makes-54-billion-profit-2016-limits-executive-45718269

It is proposed (to throw off) div @ $2.11 (USD) per share! IF bought @ $23 (USD) another factor in the category: what's not to like. Yahoo! Yee Haw!

fintail

Looks like the little diesel is a winner - even more remarkable being that it is in a heavy complex car.

gagrice

fintail said:

Looks like the little diesel is a winner - even more remarkable being that it is in a heavy complex car.

I really hated to see MB stop selling vehicles with that great engine. Only a few of the GLE300d models still floating around the country. If you want a new MB diesel, I think the GLS350d is your only choice. Better be ready to spend at least $80k for one.

ruking1

There is a lot that goes unsaid in that seemingly casual take on the 2014 2.1 L bluetec 100,000 miles @ 38 mpg. Cheers for the next 100,000 miles @ 200,000 miles update! Hopefully it remains trouble & issue free.

fintail

And none of the diesel SUVs are on the MBUSA site anymore, and the C-class has been delayed indefinitely (if not canceled outright). What a mess.

I hope a lot going unsaid means no news is good news

Michaell

fintail said:

And none of the diesel SUVs are on the MBUSA site anymore, and the C-class has been delayed indefinitely (if not canceled outright). What a mess.

I hope a lot going unsaid means no news is good news

Yeah, no lease numbers for any MB diesels. Doubt there will be any for MY 17 - fingers crossed they get things sorted out with the Feds for 2018.

fintail

Thanks VW!

Michaell said:

Yeah, no lease numbers for any MB diesels. Doubt there will be any for MY 17 - fingers crossed they get things sorted out with the Feds for 2018.

Michaell

fintail said:

Thanks VW!

Michaell said:

Yeah, no lease numbers for any MB diesels. Doubt there will be any for MY 17 - fingers crossed they get things sorted out with the Feds for 2018.

You can always get a Cruze.

And, isn't that engine going to show up in the Equinox?

fintail

For middle sized GM, I'd probably look at the Volt first, as it seems to be a cool bit of kit, but yeah there's a Cruze. I bet it would be pricey the way I would spec it.

I have as much interest in the Equinox class of vehicles as I have in switching to an all-caviar-and-Velveeta diet

Michaell said:

You can always get a Cruze.

And, isn't that engine going to show up in the Equinox?

ruking1

VW could not help but know it was a major player in the US TDI markets. So in effect, they "purposefully poisoned the well" so to speak (after getting caught, Sep 2015). So it took no effort for others to see that the TDI markets were now/are "scorched". " So other auto OEM's are in fear of hostile actions to those intrepid enough to stay in the TDI markets.

So Mercedes Benz might conclude the better part of valor would be to stay out of the 2017 "d" market: @ least for a year or two. They also probably want to gauge the NEW administration's EPA direction. Till then, it seems like Jaguar has the light shining on its TDI offerings. Chevrolet needs/wants the Cruse TDI's mpg #'s.

It would appear this could be the start of a TDI renaissance!

houdini1

I would think the new admin. will be much more favorable to diesels.

ruking1

Interesting TDI (2012 VW Touareg) conversations... @ the dog park ?

My daughter told me she was able to go back & forth from the Levis Stadium to Heavenly, South Lake Tahoe, (220 miles * 2 + local trip miles) not filling the tank in either direction. This was a tad bit perplexing to her friend wanting to pay for the trips "gas". So she stopped near her home on return to fill. (taking app 15 gal/app 500 miles) I guess this was way less than her friend was expecting to pay. She told her friend they used app half a tank of diesel. aka, DiESEL ? Oh really? This then started " they drove/rode in the diesel" conversation. ...o

I was a bit surprised @ 33/36 mpg. But while there was snow/rain and NO chain controls, they traveled in little to no traffic and same on return. My daughter LOVES driving it.

The dog had a great trip & time 2. Dog likes the back seat folded down & locked flar.