ruking1: Your Camry experience sounds awful! The engines must heat up to very high levels for that to happen. I have a Geo Prizm 1997 (Toyota Corolla) with 60K on it. Too bad not all Toyotas are this tough and durable.
Incidently, for the 1985 model year the Toyota Camry was HIGHLY rated by Consumer Reports. Other folks who bought the same model year, talked about repairs and damage far in excess of my "BAD" experiences
With a 3-4k oil change, I'll say it- Evidence of microscopic sludge is likely, there is no evidence, anecdotal or scientific of anything approaching 1 pound of sludge in just about every, every engine manufactured by a major auto manufacturer (save perhaps Toyota, but that jury is still out) in the past 10 years. Otherwise how does one explain the evidence, (anecdotal, yes) of automobile owners, using conventional oil, with mileage well over 200k and never ever having issues with sludge. Applying ruking's paradigm, they should be approaching 4 lbs of sludge in their crankcase, seems like more than enough to bring on problems surpassing Toyota's case. Of course, this would assume that the sulfated ash is the core cause of sludge, again, a giant leap for man, one small step for ????
"Of course, this would assume that the sulfated ash is the core cause of sludge, again, a giant leap for man, one small step for ???? "
?????? yup who knows??? So what you are saying now after saying that there is some sludge at 67k that there is no sludge at 200k? Magical reasoning??? Or maybe you are afraid to even think that there could be any sludge using conventional oil for you advocate using conventional oil? Who knows????? Or using your reasoning, can you prove that there is no sludge after 200k use using conventional oil?
where your name was to be typed. I made a mistake in responding at all to your inane drone. I'm sorry, I should have ignored your posts. I have now learned my lesson, thank you.
I no longer need to post on this topic as you are continually either speaking for me in your posts, or failing to comprehend anything that I post. When my lips stop moving it will be time for you to respond.
I think Toyota has figured out since 1985 how to build consistant quality throughout their entire lineup. You don't earn the reputation as the builder of the world's most reliable vehicles by building quality into some of your vehicles, and not into others. I think Honda went through some of the same growing pains in the mid 80's, and look where they are today.
There are vocalToyota Sienna owners that would take umbrage to what you are saying, if you care to peruse the engine sludge thread . I think most folks would tolerate a "secret" fix or in the worst case a recall. Yet there are some folks who have been denied warranty work by the dealer even when the dealer performed the" mandatory" 3000 miles oil change interval!! All I can say is that I am glad I am not in the "old maid game" of which engines in the Toyota Sienna line will sludge up.
So more on point, would there be less or no engine sludge if synthetic oil were used? I am not sure here. The flash point for Mobil One synthetic is 455 degrees F.
what is the difference between these two Mobil one oils? i got 2 bottle of one and 3 bottle of the other.. and didn't notice this until yesterday... i know the SL is newer..but how is it better? thanks
SL is the latest iteration, versus SJ being the outgoing qualitative version of the same old overpriced product. To get a better understanding of these API quality standards, you might want to visit:
The Toyota issue should be put to bed since they now have a major policy in place to replace problem engines for 8 years.
I just got back an oil analysis from Blackstone. I was informed that while I have less than 0.25% of water in my oil, that there has been significant water damage and that the dispersants and detergents were useless.
Silicon went up from 90 PPM to 129 PPM Phosphorous was not available in my first test, but was off the chart at 490 PPM. Universal average is zero.
I put in no more than a pint of replacement coolant since January so I didn't consider it serious. Looks like it's more serious than I thought.
From your post it is hard to discern if you have the Toyota Sienna? Also you have a leak somewhere between the coolant system and the crankcase. Sounds like shop time! (hopefully warranty)
a 1988 Dodge with 174K on it. Oil has been getting excessively dark about the past 18 months.
Frankly with this age and mileage I'm trying to save up for a replacement. Only want to get 25K More out of it. Otherwise the car is well maintained. Spend average of 1200 per year on repairs and maintenance in the last 4 years.
Appears to be pinhole leaks. I'm wondering about flushing the radiator and then adding Alumaseal. But don't know if it will kill water pump, or other parts in the cooling system.
Volatility dectease and viscosity stability are the main differences. I wouldn't worry about the differences though. And yes Mobil 1 is "overpriced" compared to the $.99 varieties. So far though my oil analysis (M1) say its OK for atleast 8K drain intervals. Depends on your comfort level.
"Volatility dectease and viscosity stability are the main differences. I wouldn't worry about the differences though. And yes Mobil 1 is "overpriced" compared to the $.99 varieties. So far though my oil analysis (M1) say its OK for atleast 8K drain intervals. Depends on your comfort level. "
Given your oil analysis for Mobil One I am presuming, with a comfort level of 8000 miles, what would be your mileage guess for a good Chevron Supreme conventional oil?
the "hard to find" Chevron Supreme 10w-30 from Walmart ($1.12 each ) and put them on my 98 Sienna ( 45,000+ mi) with a Synthec oil filter.
My questions are: 1. Will this prevent, at least minimize, sludge build-up? 2. Do I need a better oil filter (Pure-One, Mobil 1) vice Synthec ? 3. I also put in STP 6000 oil extender ($4.99 at K-Mart), was this an overkill? with oil change every 3,000 mi or 3 months whichever comes first. 4. Bought new and only use synthetic oil (Redline/Mobil 1 Tri-syn), is switching to "dino" a bad move?
I'm not sure why you switched?? You are obviously concerned with the quality of the product you use. Putting the oil extender in is really tossing in a wild card. If you are going with the dino and changing every 3K why bother with the oil extender. Any oil will last 3K so will the filter.
(b)"4. Bought new and only use synthetic oil (Redline/Mobil 1 Tri-syn), is switching to "dino" a bad move?"(/b)- I don't know because I don't know why you switched. But as long as you are changing every 3K and are comfortable with a lower level of security incase of an overheating condition-it really doesn't matter.
ruking1: No one really knows because be have no oil analysis.
Too many variables for an easy verbal analysis! You should be fine with the new petroleum SL grade oils, but at the other extreme, Redline with those "magic polyol esters" is an entirely different ball game. I personally revere Redline as the finest synthetic available. Period.
Do I have it right that you (Ruking) are equating sulfated ash with sludge? I believe that this is incorrect as it is the detergent/dispersant additives in an engine oil formulation that are responsible for the level of SA. Oils with a more robust add package (diesel oils) will have higher levels of SA (1.3 - 1.5%) and will keep your engine cleaner. These oils will also have higher TBN levels, which also will contribute to the fight against sludge.
Sulfated ash has more to do with combustion chamber deposits in engines with poor oil control than it does with sludging of engine internals IMO.
While I personally see the need and utility for diesel, in the context of discussion have specifically talked about unleaded gasoline engines. I am sure you would agree that you would not use diesel fuel and diesel formulated synthetic as well as conventional oils in unleaded gasoline engines.
at a lower price is the main reason. From previous posts, hydrocracking process produces a oil better if not equivalent to synthetic. IMO, a synthetic (PAO or Ester based) at a 7:1 ratio in price, would make me switch, wouldn't you?
If price would be no object, what oil would you use?
ruking1--I WOULD use "diesel formulated" oil in gasoline engines. For example, Valvoline "All Fleet Plus" 15W-40, and similar petroleum and synthetic based diesel rated lubricants are considered "heavy duty" for their applications. Perhaps you had some other oil category in mind. loyola--I do not choose to purchase $9.00 per quart, or even $3.00 per quart lubricants for my gasoline engines. I find that petroleum oils at $1.00 or less (after rebates, of course!) per quart that are of recent tech/vintage are very satisfactory.
i have been using mobil1 15- 50 in my mb e430 with all the discussion on changes in the syn oil, i have been considering using mobil delvac. one of the reasons is costco has delvac at the correct weight for my car, while they only have 10-30 mobile1. im assuming delvac being a diesel engine oil would be better than normal dino oil. am i correct in my thinking?? thank you
To each their own! The 15w-40 would void my warranty on one vehicle and on all four of them the manufacturer calls for 5w-30 to 10w-30, not to mention the subsequent loss in gas mileage.
What vehicle and why? I'll guess the viscosity is the reason. I would not want it known to a vehicle manufacturer during the warranty period that I was using other than recommended juice, and I would (and do!) stick to the viscosity called for in the manual. There are several people posting here that claim to use 15W-40 oil in automobile and truck engines. I am getting ready to use some in a motorcycle engine at the next change.
Viscosity is one reason, Use of non synthetic when synthetic that meets GM 4718M standards is called for another. So for many factory fill synthetic vehicles mine among many it would be penny wise, pound foolish to the greatest degree. Many BMW's, Porsches, Corvettes, MB's come factory filled with synthetic and in fact specify it.
But on a way different level, truthfully how many folks own and operate diesel consumer vehicles? I have made the case on another thread that in the USA we need to go from our low % and numbers to % and numbers approaching Europes (33%). As you know diesel can yield up to 68% better gas mileage and take 25% less effort to produce than unleaded gas. The environmentalists in this country deride our unleaded gasoline consumption and glorify Europe and its "conservation efforts" and its "superior" vehicles, but totally ignore that fully 33% of European consumer vehicles are diesel based (with the above better mileage and use of less resources to manufacture. Does highly disingenuous fit here?
In this overall sense, the use of synthetic oil to get ONE mpg better is NOTHING compared to getting 68% better mileage just by a switch to diesel. Using my TLC as an example, I get 15 mpg avg, a 68% increase would put my mileage at 25.2 mpg. Or 10.2 mpg better. Sure after I get this ONE more mile per gal or 11.2 total would be icing on the cake.
"Diesel has never "caught on" in America, and no one can succeed in the market place on a force-feed basis."...
Your above quote almost goes without saying, However what I am specifically referring to is that there is really no choice as a consumer if the gov will not let diesel products in in any numbers or %'s. Not only that, this is total off the shelf technology that doesnt need to be reinvented!!!??? Not to mention the fact that the diesel fuel infrastructure is already there due to interstate, intra state, federal transportation policy????
It is the TLC that is made on a WW basis with a diesel and turbo diesel. At this particular juncture, what is not to like about a full sized SUV that gets 25 mpg?????!!!! SO all that needs to be done is to let it into the country!!!!!! (NOT) Again the point being that this is highly disingenous!
I think that Delvac is an excellent way to go. I am going with the Delvac 1 (syn) for my bike and also my Sentra. I also have 5 gal of Shaeffers 5W-30 which I will use to compare with the Delvac, TriSyn and the SuperSyn. I have 6 cars and a bike to compare them. It will take at least another year though as I only change oil every 10-12 months.
As far as the warranty goes...You can fight the system and tell them that they need to prove damage was caused by your oil. This is a slippery slope though and perhaps you can dig up past receipts for oil. I can dump a shoe box of oil receipts on 'em if that's what they want.
I've seen two "synthetics" priced markedly less than the others, Havoline and the Walmart store brand (I forget it now). Are these PAO or hydrocracked dino?
There is a separate thread on Havoline on Bobistheoilguy. The Chevron/Havoline (not Shell/Equilon) synthetic is superior. Supposed to have a 10W30 flash of 496F.
Most of us have had trouble getting a spec. sheet for the Wal-Mart synthetic, although someone did post specs. for the SJ product on this or the slippery subject thread several months back. Wal-Mart dino. is blended by a PZ/QS subsidiary in Shreveport, also by Warren Oil. It's a group 3 base. I think the specs. of the SJ oil was quite close to the Chevron dino.
Since the SuperTech name is registered to Wal-Mart not PZ/QS, it's possible that it could be blended by someone other than their subsidiary. I requested spec. sheets for all Super Tech products several months ago from the Pennzoil web site and was sent only the SJ rated dino. The specs of that oil was roughly equivilent to Quaker State, but not as good as Pennzoil. Pennzoil has used group 2+ base stocks for several years now and ranks along with Chevron/Texaco as one of the best dino. oils.
I found the Havoline cheap ($3.50) at either Autozone or Advance and bought a bunch. Cannot find the 5qt bottles of M1 anymore and didn't feel like paying about $5 a bottle for it.
I went to Wally World tonight and they had Mobil1 synthetic tri-syn 10W30 in a 5 QT jug for $17.88. That's just $3.58/QT. I bought the last 2 they had. I suppose that was a closeout of the Tri-syn version. I didn't check the price on the Supersyn version. I was just happy to get my next 6-8 months of oil at this price.
I'm waiting for the arrival of my rebate check which will drop the price of my recent Havoline SL purchase to a level of me getting 4.5 quarts for each quart you bought at $3.58! I still use synthetic gear oil, and I must say the price per quart is absolutely astronomical these days-- like, $9.00!
You got a really good price on your Mobil product, compared to the usual price. It's too bad that oil produced by synthesis is so expensive. I doubt that you need to worry about anyone trying to give you any Havoline for free! (:o]
Have 2002 Camry with 4cyl - at 20k have put in first synthetic oil - 5-30W. Averaging 800 miles per week, 90% highway in midwest. I want to change every 10-12k miles. Any problems with engine/oil/miles combo?
No problems or concerns at all! If anything, if you are comfortable go to 15k mile intervals. I do it in TLC's and a Corvette Z06. If I did the math correctly, your 800 miles per week equates to 41,600 per yr app. I would of course get a feel as to how your particular engine and use combination uses oil. For example, the TLC's consume a 1/4 to 1/2 qt per 14k. Since I change at 15k I usually don't add any oil. I personally have and still use the Mobil One 5w-30 Synthetic. The Z06 consumes 1 qt per app 5000 miles. So naturally, I look to add app 3 qts during the 15k mile oil change interval.
ruking1: Thanks for info - car has 100k extended warranty - have you heard of problems running 10-15K miles with synthetic and getting warranty coverage. I plan to keep car to 200k, hence the choice of oil. Thanks again.
You'd have to check the terms of the extended warranty very carefully. I personally think you are treading heavily into the path of potential vehicle trouble, unless you shorten down to 6-8K maximum miles between changes. Using oil analysis can make it possible to stretch, but that is a lot of trouble for many folks. Why defeat yourself by "accidentally" overusing your synthetic?
In both cases, Chevrolet and my local Toyota dealer stated that they would/will enforce the warranty with oil changes of 15k. As a matter of fact when the Toyota's were under warranty the dealership performed the 15k Mobil One oil and filter changes. I have an extended warranty on the Chevrolet, again it will cover the warranty items using a 15k oil change interval. Another practical fact is that engines VERY RARELY have problems once they are properly broken in. It also sounds from your highway miles description that you broken in your vehicle correctly.
I doubt that those dealers will put that in writing, but if you know you can trust them, it sounds like you can have your way. I just don't have enough gambler in me to be comfortable with extended oil change intervals. I would have to use analysis for assurance, and that costs too much-- I'm frugal, shall we say... (:o]
Comments
Incidently, for the 1985 model year the Toyota Camry was HIGHLY rated by Consumer Reports. Other folks who bought the same model year, talked about repairs and damage far in excess of my "BAD" experiences
"Of course, this would assume that the sulfated ash is the core cause of sludge, again, a giant leap for man, one small step for ???? "
?????? yup who knows??? So what you are saying now after saying that there is some sludge at 67k that there is no sludge at 200k? Magical reasoning??? Or maybe you are afraid to even think that there could be any sludge using conventional oil for you advocate using conventional oil? Who knows????? Or using your reasoning, can you prove that there is no sludge after 200k use using conventional oil?
I no longer need to post on this topic as you are continually either speaking for me in your posts, or failing to comprehend anything that I post. When my lips stop moving it will be time for you to respond.
"I made a mistake in responding at all to your inane drone."
Yeah, isn't it interesting to see YOUR faulty and flawed reasonings taken to its logical conclusions? I won't respond to your inane dronings anymore.
There are vocalToyota Sienna owners that would take umbrage to what you are saying, if you care to peruse the engine sludge thread . I think most folks would tolerate a "secret" fix or in the worst case a recall. Yet there are some folks who have been denied warranty work by the dealer even when the dealer performed the" mandatory" 3000 miles oil change interval!! All I can say is that I am glad I am not in the "old maid game" of which engines in the Toyota Sienna line will sludge up.
So more on point, would there be less or no engine sludge if synthetic oil were used? I am not sure here. The flash point for Mobil One synthetic is 455 degrees F.
http://www.infineum.com/information/passenger.html
I just got back an oil analysis from Blackstone. I was informed that while I have less than 0.25% of water in my oil, that there has been significant water damage and that the dispersants and detergents were useless.
Silicon went up from 90 PPM to 129 PPM Phosphorous was not available in my first test, but was off the chart at 490 PPM. Universal average is zero.
I put in no more than a pint of replacement coolant since January so I didn't consider it serious. Looks like it's more serious than I thought.
In 3,000 miles the oil was extremely dark.
Any suggestions?
From your post it is hard to discern if you have the Toyota Sienna? Also you have a leak somewhere between the coolant system and the crankcase. Sounds like shop time! (hopefully warranty)
Dave
A good reference indeed. Also because you asked specifically for a Mobil One SJ vs SL they have a web site www.mobil1.com.
Frankly with this age and mileage I'm trying to save up for a replacement. Only want to get 25K More out of it. Otherwise the car is well maintained. Spend average of 1200 per year on repairs and maintenance in the last 4 years.
Appears to be pinhole leaks. I'm wondering about flushing the radiator and then adding Alumaseal. But don't know if it will kill water pump, or other parts in the cooling system.
Ideas would be appreciated.
"Volatility dectease and viscosity stability are the main differences. I wouldn't worry about the differences though. And yes Mobil 1 is "overpriced" compared to the $.99 varieties. So far though my oil analysis (M1) say its OK for atleast 8K drain intervals. Depends on your comfort level. "
Given your oil analysis for Mobil One I am presuming, with a comfort level of 8000 miles, what would be your mileage guess for a good Chevron Supreme conventional oil?
My questions are:
1. Will this prevent, at least minimize, sludge build-up?
2. Do I need a better oil filter (Pure-One, Mobil 1) vice Synthec ?
3. I also put in STP 6000 oil extender ($4.99 at K-Mart), was this
an overkill? with oil change every 3,000 mi or 3 months
whichever comes first.
4. Bought new and only use synthetic oil (Redline/Mobil 1 Tri-syn),
is switching to "dino" a bad move?
Thanks in advance.
(b)"4. Bought new and only use synthetic oil (Redline/Mobil 1 Tri-syn), is switching to "dino" a bad move?"(/b)- I don't know because I don't know why you switched. But as long as you are changing every 3K and are comfortable with a lower level of security incase of an overheating condition-it really doesn't matter.
ruking1: No one really knows because be have no oil analysis.
Sulfated ash has more to do with combustion chamber deposits in engines with poor oil control than it does with sludging of engine internals IMO.
While I personally see the need and utility for diesel, in the context of discussion have specifically talked about unleaded gasoline engines. I am sure you would agree that you would not use diesel fuel and diesel formulated synthetic as well as conventional oils in unleaded gasoline engines.
If price would be no object, what oil would you use?
Please dont tell me "virgin olive oil" : )
I would gladly pay less for synthetic!
loyola--I do not choose to purchase $9.00 per quart, or even $3.00 per quart lubricants for my gasoline engines. I find that petroleum oils at $1.00 or less (after rebates, of course!) per quart that are of recent tech/vintage are very satisfactory.
To each their own! The 15w-40 would void my warranty on one vehicle and on all four of them the manufacturer calls for 5w-30 to 10w-30, not to mention the subsequent loss in gas mileage.
Viscosity is one reason, Use of non synthetic when synthetic that meets GM 4718M standards is called for another. So for many factory fill synthetic vehicles mine among many it would be penny wise, pound foolish to the greatest degree. Many BMW's, Porsches, Corvettes, MB's come factory filled with synthetic and in fact specify it.
But on a way different level, truthfully how many folks own and operate diesel consumer vehicles? I have made the case on another thread that in the USA we need to go from our low % and numbers to % and numbers approaching Europes (33%). As you know diesel can yield up to 68% better gas mileage and take 25% less effort to produce than unleaded gas. The environmentalists in this country deride our unleaded gasoline consumption and glorify Europe and its "conservation efforts" and its "superior" vehicles, but totally ignore that fully 33% of European consumer vehicles are diesel based (with the above better mileage and use of less resources to manufacture. Does highly disingenuous fit here?
In this overall sense, the use of synthetic oil to get ONE mpg better is NOTHING compared to getting 68% better mileage just by a switch to diesel. Using my TLC as an example, I get 15 mpg avg, a 68% increase would put my mileage at 25.2 mpg. Or 10.2 mpg better. Sure after I get this ONE more mile per gal or 11.2 total would be icing on the cake.
"Diesel has never "caught on" in America, and no one can succeed in the market place on a force-feed basis."...
Your above quote almost goes without saying, However what I am specifically referring to is that there is really no choice as a consumer if the gov will not let diesel products in in any numbers or %'s. Not only that, this is total off the shelf technology that doesnt need to be reinvented!!!??? Not to mention the fact that the diesel fuel infrastructure is already there due to interstate, intra state, federal transportation policy????
It is the TLC that is made on a WW basis with a diesel and turbo diesel. At this particular juncture, what is not to like about a full sized SUV that gets 25 mpg?????!!!! SO all that needs to be done is to let it into the country!!!!!! (NOT) Again the point being that this is highly disingenous!
As far as the warranty goes...You can fight the system and tell them that they need to prove damage was caused by your oil. This is a slippery slope though and perhaps you can dig up past receipts for oil. I can dump a shoe box of oil receipts on 'em if that's what they want.
So now the question becomes how much is a qt of Delvac1 syn? And or Delvac conventional?
Most of us have had trouble getting a spec. sheet for the Wal-Mart synthetic, although someone did post specs. for the SJ product on this or the slippery subject thread several months back. Wal-Mart dino. is blended by a PZ/QS subsidiary in Shreveport, also by Warren Oil. It's a group 3 base. I think the specs. of the SJ oil was quite close to the Chevron dino.
Since the SuperTech name is registered to Wal-Mart not PZ/QS, it's possible that it could be blended by someone other than their subsidiary. I requested spec. sheets for all Super Tech products several months ago from the Pennzoil web site and was sent only the SJ rated dino. The specs of that oil was roughly equivilent to Quaker State, but not as good as Pennzoil. Pennzoil has used group 2+ base stocks for several years now and ranks along with Chevron/Texaco as one of the best dino. oils.
No problems or concerns at all! If anything, if you are comfortable go to 15k mile intervals. I do it in TLC's and a Corvette Z06. If I did the math correctly, your 800 miles per week equates to 41,600 per yr app. I would of course get a feel as to how your particular engine and use combination uses oil. For example, the TLC's consume a 1/4 to 1/2 qt per 14k. Since I change at 15k I usually don't add any oil. I personally have and still use the Mobil One 5w-30 Synthetic. The Z06 consumes 1 qt per app 5000 miles. So naturally, I look to add app 3 qts during the 15k mile oil change interval.
Thanks for info - car has 100k extended warranty - have you heard of problems running 10-15K miles with synthetic and getting warranty coverage. I plan to keep car to 200k, hence the choice of oil.
Thanks again.
In both cases, Chevrolet and my local Toyota dealer stated that they would/will enforce the warranty with oil changes of 15k. As a matter of fact when the Toyota's were under warranty the dealership performed the 15k Mobil One oil and filter changes. I have an extended warranty on the Chevrolet, again it will cover the warranty items using a 15k oil change interval. Another practical fact is that engines VERY RARELY have problems once they are properly broken in. It also sounds from your highway miles description that you broken in your vehicle correctly.