For how much an oiled foam air filter costs especially with a spare you can buy OEM filters that will usually outlast how long you tend to own the car.
A case in point. A Corvette "oil fabric element" costs 70 dollars and spare(x2)=140. Proper oil =10 and cleaner and degreaser add 12. total=162. To buy oem synthetic filters at $6/10. per with 30,000 miles per filter= 16-27 filters or 480k-810k miles. You only spend 6/10 dollars at a time, not the total 162 when you need each OEM filter, not up front.
The nexus with this thread "synthetic oil" is the fact that particulate matter finds its way into the oil system and is a pollutant. The oem has been shown to keep this migration very low as compared to a oiled foam/cotton element. The goal being to keep this synthetic oil as clean as possible for as long as possible. Maintenance and down time are kept to a minimum, due to being able to remove and replace(R/R)using a spare. But one does not really know how long a freshly oiled filter actually lasts and the fact of the matter is that these filters DO let in more particulate matter. The other issue is while I think there is not much long term effect on internal combustion of mineral oil due to atomization, I can say that my oem filter doesn't force any mineral oil into my engine to ingest.
There is an interesting shady area. Many of the after market vendors claim HP gains. To my way of thinking they are probably absolutely correct. However it is just as correct to simply remove the stock air cleaner cover and apply the same logic and Coincidently the HP gains are VERY similar. Cost to remove the stock air cover? Normally ZERO. So if we put this to a bottom line. Would folks like to pay 162 for the same HP gain as removal of the stock air cleaner cover,vs ZERO? The spin off benefit of the stock filter being better filtering which can be measured/quantified in oil analysis!?
After hearing your posts, and one from armtdm, I really need to look into the entire issue of paper vs. aftermarket oiled. I have been using oiled filters for years. Avoiding the breakdown of the element has been easy. But I never really looked into the dissadvantages of oil wetted elements. I will however. Has anyone seen any independent tests, or independent comparisions of them. Anybody have any more on this?
He says that the Amsoil does not filter better than the K&N but the Amsoil is obviously darker meaning that it has filtered out more dirt.
His statement about flow vs. pressure drop is also not valid. For an increase in pressure drop to correlate to an increase in flowrate, the filter area, %void space, pore size etc. would have to be exactly the same in all of the filters. Higher pressure drop could mean smaller pore size which would mean lower flowrate.
He could have weighed the filters before and after to measure how much dirt they caught. Testing for a longer # of miles on each would also have improved the accuracy of the results. I would also like to see an oil analysis done with each filter in place.
I would discount any of the results here do to a poorly designed experiment. I do this kind of stuff for a living and there is just not much data here and what is there is not accurately interpreted.
Where it really counts, I would say is how much HP on the dyno does each element let the engine generate. (all other factors being indexed and corrected)
Sure, this forum is for comments of all kinds. Your first few posts came across to me as 'Amsoil can go 25k miles in any vehicle. If it doesn't last that long, then there must be some sort of problem with the engine and the oil cannot be blamed for anything.' I feel it's not that simple, and your subsequent posts seemed to agree with that feeling.
The other thing about your first few posts was that they had a distinct 'sales' flavor. We don't need that here.
Glad you took some time to head over to Bob's board. Lots of good info there.
This is not th ecorrect location for an air filtert discussion. From what I can gather from several sites the concensus seems to be that the K&N may, in some situations produce more HP and in some situations also let more dirt in. Some oil analysis using the K&N indicate this. Similar to oil filters this appears to be the argument of flow versus filtering ability. In an oil filter which do you want, K&N for flow, Pure One or Mobil 1 for filtering.
And in the long run, does it really make any difference in the long term life of the engine, probably not. My hypothesis has always been if you change your oil and oil filter every 3000 miles and air filter once a year (with any ole oil and filters, even Fram and 89 cents a quart oil) your engine will outlive the body it is bolted to.
Synthetics come in for longer drains,less hassle due to fewer drains and the piece of mind of overkill.
My filter was $35. I used it for 4 years in my Impreza Outback and it's been in my Impreza WRX for 6 months. Didn't feel the need to purchase two since I time the cleanings when I know I won't drive my car for 24 hours or so. It looks just as good today as it did 4 1/2 years ago.
I read on some discussions that Mobil1-SuperSyn is now made from cheaper group III base stock (previously made with higher quality group IV) resulting in higher pour point and lower flash point. Anyone knows how will this impact the oil quality and longevity?
website going to recommend that anything other than Amsoil is best? As far as the supersyn issues goes, I have heard the criticism but I am withholding judgement until I see evidence in an analysis. That will come this spring for me in my engine.
Mobil 1 is still PAO, not group III. Bigorange is right, you can't believe everthing you read on the web...except at Edmunds, of course.
They are both very good oils. Amsoil does promote longer change intervals, while Mobil is more conservative, & recommends following the car manufacturer's intervals. I follow a long running oil analysis report on the Maxima.org site and, ironically, BOTH oils show good results with long intervals (8-10+ K miles), AND poor results with shorter intervals (5-8K). So it all depends...on your driving habits, your engine, your preference, etc. If it were my car, I'd work up to a 10K interval gradually, and only after utilizing oil analysis to confirm the oil is holding up that long. Blindly following an advertising claim for long duration without some independent confirmation of what is happening to the oil in YOUR car, is asking for trouble.
I have not heard that about Mobil 1. As to 10,000 mile drains, well, depends on the engine and driving conditions and climate. If you do a lot of highway driving then you may be able to, suggest doing 7500 to start then anlysis then if ok 10,000 and analysis. If okay then you should be okay, this would be my suggestion for an engine over 20,000 miles. Earlier then 20,000, my experience is that you will get many wear metals due to engine still breaking in, higher silicon levels as well. But, just my opinion.
There are several great synthetic oils, RedlIne, Amsoil, Royal Purple but only Mobil 1 is readily available (auto parts stores etc) and if that is a concern you have no choice plus if you want the API doughnut on the container for warranty reasons you have no choice in a synthetic, only Mobil 1 makes one that is API certified. The Amsoil XL series is not synthetic. You really should look at the Schaeffer blends as well, they appear to be holding up as well as or better then synthetic, API ceritified but not easily obtained.
ok, I have 2000 Mazda 626 LX-V6 MT, and 53000 miles on it (mostly highway). Last oil change I put Mobil 1(5w-30) in it and it has been 7000 miles since. Where and how can I do the oil analysis and how much does it cost?
The short answer is you will do perfectly fine with the Mobil One synthetic 10w-30.
Assuming that the figures and statistics are true, you would have to decide whether or not those factors are worth the Amoil's premium over Mobil One. In my case, 15k intervals, and in your case of 10k intervals, I would not choose the Amsoil.
Is there aftermarket oil sensor or something of that sort that could be instaled and indicate when oil needs to be changed? This way oil change will be done depending on the condition of the oil rather then mileage that oil was used for.
A few OEM's have algorithms built into the computer systems that measure the usage on designated parameters, but there are no systems that directly measure the actual oil to get those figures. Perhaps the oil testing lobby keeps that from happening. Or even the qwicky lubes and oil companies.
As sophisticated as the one that the Z06 Corvette and MB and BMW uses, the manufacturing costs are very very negligible($<10. vs a Blackstone price of 18.50 per test)
I can't believe that there is nothing like that on the aftermarket. Can you retrofit those used by GM, BMW and MB? I believe that is a real answer to keep your engine happy and save money along with protecting environment!
Measuring and sensing is already being done. Perhaps another way to make it more clear is that there is currently no on board system ON THE MARKET that uses gas spec to analyze the oil. The one that you have linked is scheduled to be available March of 2004.
Combined with a K&N air filter and oil filter? The cars gas milage went up about 12%. Power wise there is a feeling of a smoother running motor and a little more pep. I know its all subjective but I have tried out Topac at twice the price and less performance. Why Audi uses 30 instead of 5-30 baffles me. Up here a liter costs about $7.00 Canadian the Topac is $14. The guys at the mopac store sell a lot of high end oils but seem to think that Purple is the best buy. Hope I was of some help. By the way I drove through Nevada this past summer and the engine temp stayed at 90 c all the way.
I believe it's totally impossible for two oils of the same viscosity to differ much in mpg. I have seen numerous studies where the very/very best one synthetic oil did was 3% over another dino oil. In a very recent SAE test comparing Delvac 1 5W-40 to dino 15W-40 (Fleet Truck tests) , the Delvac 1 did 2.83% better than the Dino (for new oil). For used (7.3% soot) oil it did 1.9% better. For the same conditions with Synthetic in the punkins and trannies the trucks that had all syn fluids did an average of 3.1% to 4.2% better. However I hasten to add the Synthetic was 5W-40 vs the 15W-40 so the 5W-would have done better in part due to this alone. I amy very meticulous with gas milage and during the period of 8-10 years ago when I was in the process of switching from conventional to synthetic oil I noticed a small difference-but probably less than 2%. I certinly doubt that Royal Purple would make any more (if any difference than Mobil 1). Again just my opinion.
To add fuel to the fire, of the three stock lubricants in one of my vehicles 1 synthetic motor oil 5w-30 2. synthetic 75W-90 differential oil 3. ATF dexron conventional in my one of my cars, I changed the dexron ATF (conventional) to synthetic ATF and it made app 1 mph better 1/25= 4%. So it tracks with your observation.
and increase in mpg from dino to mobil1 but I didn't see any from the K&N filter I am using. I am going back to paper at the next oil change to see if there is an analysis difference.
I would, however, like to see more hard data on royal purple before I try it.
Yeah , I think that the two problem issues are 1. seat of the pants experience (SOTP) vs 2. repeatable procedures and numbers.
SOTP experiences have a statistical distribution. A small example, is you may have a more sensitive seat of the pants experience than me. So a gain or a loss of 15hp may barely rate a yawn from one or be a stunning improvement to another.
Repeatable procedures and numbers are probably the best way to qualify and quantify the information, but results do vary!!
So for example we can easily test hypothesis, ergo there is no mpg difference between synthetic oils of the same viscosity 5w-30 specifically Royal Purple vs brand XYZ. Or more specifically , there is a slight mileage difference between conventional and synthetic, specifically conventional brand XYZ vs synthetic, Royal Purple. The next thing is to "dial out" the variables or account for them, so that anyone can procedurally replicate what you did. So that the results are because of the difference between conventional vs synthetic.
Another example on my Vette, the stock air cover is acknowledged to be restricted, so I switched to another years stock air cover that had roughly 7x more exposed area (less restriction). I had calculated that I would have app .5 mpg more . However, I enjoyed the extra hp (app 7-10) that I feathered it at the point of the first stock air covers restriction and predictably did not get better gas mileage. After I got used to the extra air flow I could now settle down and drive procedurally the same as I did when I had the first stock air cover, again predictably I got app .5 mpg better.
Anyone know the manufacturing process, or what the oil is derived from? My Lexus has the RX-300,V-6 Toyota engine, notorios for sludging, 43k, and I was considering changing to synth oil, or at least a blend, because this is one of the engines that Toyota/Lexus has problems with sludge. Any suggestions? Maybe use 50/50?
There is either an archived subject thread or a current subject thread and/or both, that goes into some detail about the sludge problem in the Toyota V-6. While it seems that most of the engines that have problems have been using conventional oil, there have been a smaller % that have problems even using synthetic. The problem "seems" to be engine oil washing over areas that would obviously exceed the operating parameters of oil(in the case of Mobil One synthetic (455 degrees?) . So there is a significant area that in effect "cooks" the oil with the result of sludging. Clearly this is a design/manufacturing problem.
This is also a good trick question! It depends on your long term perspective. One of the reasons why the switch to 5W-20 is to wring out EVERY last MPG. So like for example 5W-30 to 10W-30 in my experience plus or minus .5-1 mpg. So as you can see, going from 30-20 probably yields more mpg. Another reason is that the OEM's really care more about the longevity of the emissions controls than how long the engine lasts. The fed requires the oem to guarantee the emissions components 7/70 and of course you know how long your engines are guaranteed In my instances it is half of the emissions components guarantee!! Also the oil vendors are taking out the additives or subbing them that makes the engine last longer but degrades the catalitic converters faster. In a manner of speaking the SL rating is a tad bit in limbo as the fed requirements are tightening. The next rating may or may not be backwards compatible with the SL rating so they are sorting and prioritizing. I am truly glad I don't have a car that the manual calls for 5w-20.
I'm going to confess. I bought 5W-20 today. I went hog wild and bought both Valvoline All Climate and Castrol GTX. It'll be three months likely, before I use any of it.
Around here, the cheapest way to get 5W20 is to wait until Meijer puts all grades of Valvoline or Castrol on sale for the same price. E.g. Valvoline usually goes on sale for $1.29/qt. As far as I know, that's pretty cheap for the 5W20, which is semi-synthetic in order to meet the demanding criteria.
I got the Castrol GTX 5W-20 for $1.29 per quart, and the Valvoline for $0.99 per quart. They had very little of either, thus my decision to "stock up" for the time being. I will expect that most brands will eventually come out with the 5W-20. Around here, the pickin's are slim at the present time. The regular advertised price for each is $1.85 per quart.
with the warranty spec in your user manual or do you prefer this weight and will you continue this weight after 3/36? I seem to remember you had a discussion with your Ford service mgr that stated 5w30 usage to be OK. What are your long range plans for this vehicle in regards to lubrication? (Hydrocracked: 5w20, 5w30,10w30)
I know the GTX has moly in the mix, I haven't heard this about the Valvoline. With the reduction in the ZDDP additives, as reported on Bob's board, is this a concern to you?
BTW, I ran Pennz 5w20 for 10K before switching to M1 in my 01 Accord. At that time, I was averaging 1200 miles a week and didn't want to lay under my vehicle every 2 weeks or so, hence the switch. Now at 89K and all is well.
I am running 5W-30 in the Merc'Neer right now, and will switch to 5W-20 next oil and filter change-- just to comply with the "preferences" as a way to protect my warranty interests, and also I am interested in seeing how it runs with the "new" stuff. I recall as a grade school kid, my father had "20 weight" oil around the garage for auto use. We're back again, it would seem. I am totally accustomed to 10W-30, after hating to switch from the standard 10W-40 several years back, and then I even accepted 5W-30 (an even tougher job!). I've been thinking, it may be the wave of the future we are looking at. I might as well "toy" with it a bit, and see if I can take the step one more time, or not! One thing is for sure-- I've got a tremendous load of 10W-30 and 5W-30 in the garage that isn't going to be wasted-- guaranTEE!
do you think I can go between changes with synthetic? I live really close to work so I only put about 500-600 miles a month on the car, which means I don't hit 3k for 5-6 months.
Comments
A case in point. A Corvette "oil fabric element" costs 70 dollars and spare(x2)=140. Proper oil =10 and cleaner and degreaser add 12. total=162. To buy oem synthetic filters at $6/10. per with 30,000 miles per filter= 16-27 filters or 480k-810k miles. You only spend 6/10 dollars at a time, not the total 162 when you need each OEM filter, not up front.
The nexus with this thread "synthetic oil" is the fact that particulate matter finds its way into the oil system and is a pollutant. The oem has been shown to keep this migration very low as compared to a oiled foam/cotton element. The goal being to keep this synthetic oil as clean as possible for as long as possible. Maintenance and down time are kept to a minimum, due to being able to remove and replace(R/R)using a spare. But one does not really know how long a freshly oiled filter actually lasts and the fact of the matter is that these filters DO let in more particulate matter. The other issue is while I think there is not much long term effect on internal combustion of mineral oil due to atomization, I can say that my oem filter doesn't force any mineral oil into my engine to ingest.
There is an interesting shady area. Many of the after market vendors claim HP gains. To my way of thinking they are probably absolutely correct. However it is just as correct to simply remove the stock air cleaner cover and apply the same logic and Coincidently the HP gains are VERY similar. Cost to remove the stock air cover? Normally ZERO. So if we put this to a bottom line. Would folks like to pay 162 for the same HP gain as removal of the stock air cleaner cover,vs ZERO? The spin off benefit of the stock filter being better filtering which can be measured/quantified in oil analysis!?
Neither K&N nor Amsoil did well in this person's personnel attempt to test filters.
His statement about flow vs. pressure drop is also not valid. For an increase in pressure drop to correlate to an increase in flowrate, the filter area, %void space, pore size etc. would have to be exactly the same in all of the filters. Higher pressure drop could mean smaller pore size which would mean lower flowrate.
He could have weighed the filters before and after to measure how much dirt they caught. Testing for a longer # of miles on each would also have improved the accuracy of the results. I would also like to see an oil analysis done with each filter in place.
I would discount any of the results here do to a poorly designed experiment. I do this kind of stuff for a living and there is just not much data here and what is there is not accurately interpreted.
The other thing about your first few posts was that they had a distinct 'sales' flavor. We don't need that here.
Glad you took some time to head over to Bob's board. Lots of good info there.
And in the long run, does it really make any difference in the long term life of the engine, probably not. My hypothesis has always been if you change your oil and oil filter every 3000 miles and air filter once a year (with any ole oil and filters, even Fram and 89 cents a quart oil) your engine will outlive the body it is bolted to.
Synthetics come in for longer drains,less hassle due to fewer drains and the piece of mind of overkill.
-Dennis
-Dennis
http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil/Mobil1vsAMSOIL.pdf
Can someone tell me if these numbers can be trusted and which oil would you recommend and why? I would like to run a 10000 drain interval.
Thanks!
They are both very good oils. Amsoil does promote longer change intervals, while Mobil is more conservative, & recommends following the car manufacturer's intervals. I follow a long running oil analysis report on the Maxima.org site and, ironically, BOTH oils show good results with long intervals (8-10+ K miles), AND poor results with shorter intervals (5-8K). So it all depends...on your driving habits, your engine, your preference, etc. If it were my car, I'd work up to a 10K interval gradually, and only after utilizing oil analysis to confirm the oil is holding up that long. Blindly following an advertising claim for long duration without some independent confirmation of what is happening to the oil in YOUR car, is asking for trouble.
As to 10,000 mile drains, well, depends on the engine and driving conditions and climate. If you do a lot of highway driving then you may be able to, suggest doing 7500 to start then anlysis then if ok 10,000 and analysis. If okay then you should be okay, this would be my suggestion for an engine over 20,000 miles. Earlier then 20,000, my experience is that you will get many wear metals due to engine still breaking in, higher silicon levels as well. But, just my opinion.
There are several great synthetic oils, RedlIne, Amsoil, Royal Purple but only Mobil 1 is readily available (auto parts stores etc) and if that is a concern you have no choice plus if you want the API doughnut on the container for warranty reasons you have no choice in a synthetic, only Mobil 1 makes one that is API certified. The Amsoil XL series is not synthetic. You really should look at the Schaeffer blends as well, they appear to be holding up as well as or better then synthetic, API ceritified but not easily obtained.
It costs $18. TBN is $10 extra.
The short answer is you will do perfectly fine with the Mobil One synthetic 10w-30.
Assuming that the figures and statistics are true, you would have to decide whether or not those factors are worth the Amoil's premium over Mobil One. In my case, 15k intervals, and in your case of 10k intervals, I would not choose the Amsoil.
Perhaps the real issue is why you think there is an advantage to 0w-40, especially when your manual calls for 10w-30.
For example my manuals calls for 5w-30 and or 10w-30. So depending on sales price of Mobil One I have no problem with using 0-10w-30.
I get that with 0w,5w,10w-30.
Unless you are racing, I would stay with what your manual calls for.
A few OEM's have algorithms built into the computer systems that measure the usage on designated parameters, but there are no systems that directly measure the actual oil to get those figures. Perhaps the oil testing lobby keeps that from happening.
As sophisticated as the one that the Z06 Corvette and MB and BMW uses, the manufacturing costs are very very negligible($<10. vs a Blackstone price of 18.50 per test)
http://www.delphi.com/pdf/intellek/oil_condition_sensor.pdf
Anyone has any experience/info about this sensor?
Measuring and sensing is already being done. Perhaps another way to make it more clear is that there is currently no on board system ON THE MARKET that uses gas spec to analyze the oil. The one that you have linked is scheduled to be available March of 2004.
Thanks!
I amy very meticulous with gas milage and during the period of 8-10 years ago when I was in the process of switching from conventional to synthetic oil I noticed a small difference-but probably less than 2%. I certinly doubt that Royal Purple would make any more (if any difference than Mobil 1). Again just my opinion.
To add fuel to the fire, of the three stock lubricants in one of my vehicles 1 synthetic motor oil 5w-30 2. synthetic 75W-90 differential oil 3. ATF dexron conventional in my one of my cars, I changed the dexron ATF (conventional) to synthetic ATF and it made app 1 mph better 1/25= 4%. So it tracks with your observation.
I would, however, like to see more hard data on royal purple before I try it.
Yeah , I think that the two problem issues are 1. seat of the pants experience (SOTP) vs 2. repeatable procedures and numbers.
SOTP experiences have a statistical distribution. A small example, is you may have a more sensitive seat of the pants experience than me. So a gain or a loss of 15hp may barely rate a yawn from one or be a stunning improvement to another.
Repeatable procedures and numbers are probably the best way to qualify and quantify the information, but results do vary!!
So for example we can easily test hypothesis, ergo there is no mpg difference between synthetic oils of the same viscosity 5w-30 specifically Royal Purple vs brand XYZ. Or more specifically , there is a slight mileage difference between conventional and synthetic, specifically conventional brand XYZ vs synthetic, Royal Purple. The next thing is to "dial out" the variables or account for them, so that anyone can procedurally replicate what you did. So that the results are because of the difference between conventional vs synthetic.
Another example on my Vette, the stock air cover is acknowledged to be restricted, so I switched to another years stock air cover that had roughly 7x more exposed area (less restriction). I had calculated that I would have app .5 mpg more . However, I enjoyed the extra hp (app 7-10) that I feathered it at the point of the first stock air covers restriction and predictably did not get better gas mileage. After I got used to the extra air flow I could now settle down and drive procedurally the same as I did when I had the first stock air cover, again predictably I got app .5 mpg better.
Also look here.
"Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2" Mar 6, 2003 11:02pm
There is either an archived subject thread or a current subject thread and/or both, that goes into some detail about the sludge problem in the Toyota V-6. While it seems that most of the engines that have problems have been using conventional oil, there have been a smaller % that have problems even using synthetic. The problem "seems" to be engine oil washing over areas that would obviously exceed the operating parameters of oil(in the case of Mobil One synthetic (455 degrees?) . So there is a significant area that in effect "cooks" the oil with the result of sludging. Clearly this is a design/manufacturing problem.
This is also a good trick question! It depends on your long term perspective. One of the reasons why the switch to 5W-20 is to wring out EVERY last MPG. So like for example 5W-30 to 10W-30 in my experience plus or minus .5-1 mpg. So as you can see, going from 30-20 probably yields more mpg. Another reason is that the OEM's really care more about the longevity of the emissions controls than how long the engine lasts. The fed requires the oem to guarantee the emissions components 7/70 and of course you know how long your engines are guaranteed
The regular advertised price for each is $1.85 per quart.
I know the GTX has moly in the mix, I haven't heard this about the Valvoline. With the reduction in the ZDDP additives, as reported on Bob's board, is this a concern to you?
BTW, I ran Pennz 5w20 for 10K before switching to M1 in my 01 Accord. At that time, I was averaging 1200 miles a week and didn't want to lay under my vehicle every 2 weeks or so, hence the switch. Now at 89K and all is well.