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A case in point. A Corvette "oil fabric element" costs 70 dollars and spare(x2)=140. Proper oil =10 and cleaner and degreaser add 12. total=162. To buy oem synthetic filters at $6/10. per with 30,000 miles per filter= 16-27 filters or 480k-810k miles. You only spend 6/10 dollars at a time, not the total 162 when you need each OEM filter, not up front.
The nexus with this thread "synthetic oil" is the fact that particulate matter finds its way into the oil system and is a pollutant. The oem has been shown to keep this migration very low as compared to a oiled foam/cotton element. The goal being to keep this synthetic oil as clean as possible for as long as possible. Maintenance and down time are kept to a minimum, due to being able to remove and replace(R/R)using a spare. But one does not really know how long a freshly oiled filter actually lasts and the fact of the matter is that these filters DO let in more particulate matter. The other issue is while I think there is not much long term effect on internal combustion of mineral oil due to atomization, I can say that my oem filter doesn't force any mineral oil into my engine to ingest.
There is an interesting shady area. Many of the after market vendors claim HP gains. To my way of thinking they are probably absolutely correct. However it is just as correct to simply remove the stock air cleaner cover and apply the same logic and Coincidently the HP gains are VERY similar. Cost to remove the stock air cover? Normally ZERO. So if we put this to a bottom line. Would folks like to pay 162 for the same HP gain as removal of the stock air cleaner cover,vs ZERO? The spin off benefit of the stock filter being better filtering which can be measured/quantified in oil analysis!?
Neither K&N nor Amsoil did well in this person's personnel attempt to test filters.
His statement about flow vs. pressure drop is also not valid. For an increase in pressure drop to correlate to an increase in flowrate, the filter area, %void space, pore size etc. would have to be exactly the same in all of the filters. Higher pressure drop could mean smaller pore size which would mean lower flowrate.
He could have weighed the filters before and after to measure how much dirt they caught. Testing for a longer # of miles on each would also have improved the accuracy of the results. I would also like to see an oil analysis done with each filter in place.
I would discount any of the results here do to a poorly designed experiment. I do this kind of stuff for a living and there is just not much data here and what is there is not accurately interpreted.
The other thing about your first few posts was that they had a distinct 'sales' flavor. We don't need that here.
Glad you took some time to head over to Bob's board. Lots of good info there.
And in the long run, does it really make any difference in the long term life of the engine, probably not. My hypothesis has always been if you change your oil and oil filter every 3000 miles and air filter once a year (with any ole oil and filters, even Fram and 89 cents a quart oil) your engine will outlive the body it is bolted to.
Synthetics come in for longer drains,less hassle due to fewer drains and the piece of mind of overkill.
-Dennis
-Dennis
http://www.bestsyntheticoil.com/amsoil/Mobil1vsAMSOIL.pdf
Can someone tell me if these numbers can be trusted and which oil would you recommend and why? I would like to run a 10000 drain interval.
Thanks!
They are both very good oils. Amsoil does promote longer change intervals, while Mobil is more conservative, & recommends following the car manufacturer's intervals. I follow a long running oil analysis report on the Maxima.org site and, ironically, BOTH oils show good results with long intervals (8-10+ K miles), AND poor results with shorter intervals (5-8K). So it all depends...on your driving habits, your engine, your preference, etc. If it were my car, I'd work up to a 10K interval gradually, and only after utilizing oil analysis to confirm the oil is holding up that long. Blindly following an advertising claim for long duration without some independent confirmation of what is happening to the oil in YOUR car, is asking for trouble.
As to 10,000 mile drains, well, depends on the engine and driving conditions and climate. If you do a lot of highway driving then you may be able to, suggest doing 7500 to start then anlysis then if ok 10,000 and analysis. If okay then you should be okay, this would be my suggestion for an engine over 20,000 miles. Earlier then 20,000, my experience is that you will get many wear metals due to engine still breaking in, higher silicon levels as well. But, just my opinion.
There are several great synthetic oils, RedlIne, Amsoil, Royal Purple but only Mobil 1 is readily available (auto parts stores etc) and if that is a concern you have no choice plus if you want the API doughnut on the container for warranty reasons you have no choice in a synthetic, only Mobil 1 makes one that is API certified. The Amsoil XL series is not synthetic. You really should look at the Schaeffer blends as well, they appear to be holding up as well as or better then synthetic, API ceritified but not easily obtained.
It costs $18. TBN is $10 extra.
The short answer is you will do perfectly fine with the Mobil One synthetic 10w-30.
Assuming that the figures and statistics are true, you would have to decide whether or not those factors are worth the Amoil's premium over Mobil One. In my case, 15k intervals, and in your case of 10k intervals, I would not choose the Amsoil.
Perhaps the real issue is why you think there is an advantage to 0w-40, especially when your manual calls for 10w-30.
For example my manuals calls for 5w-30 and or 10w-30. So depending on sales price of Mobil One I have no problem with using 0-10w-30.
I get that with 0w,5w,10w-30.
Unless you are racing, I would stay with what your manual calls for.
A few OEM's have algorithms built into the computer systems that measure the usage on designated parameters, but there are no systems that directly measure the actual oil to get those figures. Perhaps the oil testing lobby keeps that from happening.
As sophisticated as the one that the Z06 Corvette and MB and BMW uses, the manufacturing costs are very very negligible($<10. vs a Blackstone price of 18.50 per test)
http://www.delphi.com/pdf/intellek/oil_condition_sensor.pdf
Anyone has any experience/info about this sensor?
Measuring and sensing is already being done. Perhaps another way to make it more clear is that there is currently no on board system ON THE MARKET that uses gas spec to analyze the oil. The one that you have linked is scheduled to be available March of 2004.
Thanks!
I amy very meticulous with gas milage and during the period of 8-10 years ago when I was in the process of switching from conventional to synthetic oil I noticed a small difference-but probably less than 2%. I certinly doubt that Royal Purple would make any more (if any difference than Mobil 1). Again just my opinion.
To add fuel to the fire, of the three stock lubricants in one of my vehicles 1 synthetic motor oil 5w-30 2. synthetic 75W-90 differential oil 3. ATF dexron conventional in my one of my cars, I changed the dexron ATF (conventional) to synthetic ATF and it made app 1 mph better 1/25= 4%. So it tracks with your observation.
I would, however, like to see more hard data on royal purple before I try it.
Yeah , I think that the two problem issues are 1. seat of the pants experience (SOTP) vs 2. repeatable procedures and numbers.
SOTP experiences have a statistical distribution. A small example, is you may have a more sensitive seat of the pants experience than me. So a gain or a loss of 15hp may barely rate a yawn from one or be a stunning improvement to another.
Repeatable procedures and numbers are probably the best way to qualify and quantify the information, but results do vary!!
So for example we can easily test hypothesis, ergo there is no mpg difference between synthetic oils of the same viscosity 5w-30 specifically Royal Purple vs brand XYZ. Or more specifically , there is a slight mileage difference between conventional and synthetic, specifically conventional brand XYZ vs synthetic, Royal Purple. The next thing is to "dial out" the variables or account for them, so that anyone can procedurally replicate what you did. So that the results are because of the difference between conventional vs synthetic.
Another example on my Vette, the stock air cover is acknowledged to be restricted, so I switched to another years stock air cover that had roughly 7x more exposed area (less restriction). I had calculated that I would have app .5 mpg more . However, I enjoyed the extra hp (app 7-10) that I feathered it at the point of the first stock air covers restriction and predictably did not get better gas mileage. After I got used to the extra air flow I could now settle down and drive procedurally the same as I did when I had the first stock air cover, again predictably I got app .5 mpg better.
Also look here.
"Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2" Mar 6, 2003 11:02pm
There is either an archived subject thread or a current subject thread and/or both, that goes into some detail about the sludge problem in the Toyota V-6. While it seems that most of the engines that have problems have been using conventional oil, there have been a smaller % that have problems even using synthetic. The problem "seems" to be engine oil washing over areas that would obviously exceed the operating parameters of oil(in the case of Mobil One synthetic (455 degrees?) . So there is a significant area that in effect "cooks" the oil with the result of sludging. Clearly this is a design/manufacturing problem.
This is also a good trick question! It depends on your long term perspective. One of the reasons why the switch to 5W-20 is to wring out EVERY last MPG. So like for example 5W-30 to 10W-30 in my experience plus or minus .5-1 mpg. So as you can see, going from 30-20 probably yields more mpg. Another reason is that the OEM's really care more about the longevity of the emissions controls than how long the engine lasts. The fed requires the oem to guarantee the emissions components 7/70 and of course you know how long your engines are guaranteed
The regular advertised price for each is $1.85 per quart.
I know the GTX has moly in the mix, I haven't heard this about the Valvoline. With the reduction in the ZDDP additives, as reported on Bob's board, is this a concern to you?
BTW, I ran Pennz 5w20 for 10K before switching to M1 in my 01 Accord. At that time, I was averaging 1200 miles a week and didn't want to lay under my vehicle every 2 weeks or so, hence the switch. Now at 89K and all is well.