Actually on my last two cars (97 Accord fuel injection and 97 Accord) I noticed drastic performance improvement (much better acceleration) when I switched to synthetic - Castrol. That, if the driving pattern does not change has to bring some mileage. Although the viscosity is given by 15W50 (example) numbers, I think that synthetic oil has decreased viscosity while maintaining the oil film. That's why in old engines it will pass through the oil seals like they're not even there. The molecule is simply smaller allowing for a thinner film, so less effort on the engine.
Worth mentioning - Honda Accord 87 recommended oil change interval 10k miles or 12K Km. Honda Accord 97 - 3k miles ????!!!!! My new Ford Freestyle 5K miles.
Just came back from a 6200 miles R/T. from San Jose, CA to mid southern Florida. The most surrealistic thing about this wonderful but long trip was I was in all the most heinously affected effected places/states that Hurricane Katrina has devasted, severall days before land fall.
When I got to home base, I could not wait to wash off the FL salt laden film off the car and set about doing a 26,000 mile OCI and oil filter and (65,000 mile) fuel filter change. The oil used before/after is/was Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck & SUV. I fueled 11 times with range of 45-52 mpg.
In another application, I would also agree. However the TDI has a "rubber ruler" specification for so called "synthetic" oil. Specifically it is VW 505.00. So brands like Rotella 15-40, Schaeffers, Delo, etc. can and do meet the specifications. But early on in this engine's life cycle, one of my goals was to maintain and run 500,000 to 1M miles. I am at a meager 66,000 miles, so indeed I have a long way to let you know if I even got close to the goals. I researched and standardized on Delvac One 5w40, aka Mobil One Truck and SUV 5w40 and until they come out with something better, plan to stay with it.
I probably should not admit this, given the continued spike in oil/gas/diesel prices, but I did not drive to effect/affect any mpg or "economy" goals. The reported mpg range was merely a snapshot and not the result of attempts to wring out the best mpg. I probably do not have the obsessive compulsive behavior ( such as some Honda Insight and Toyota Prius owners ) necessary to consistently wring out 60+ mpg This is not to say I have not gotten 62 mpg! BUT...
There was some standardization, such as 1. 38/37 PSI fronts, 36/35 PSI rears 2. on filling: on first click off- DO NOT refill etc. 3. AC on 99% of the time.
I like the TDI...I think if they hadn't pulled the hike on diesel fuel I would have bought one...it's still more attractive to me than a hybrid though. I'd certainly consider running synthetic in a newer car like that.
I agree, there is a certain obsessiveness about fuel mileage or length of oil changes that becomes somewhat counterproductive.
Being as how this is a synthetic thread I do not want to go TOO far afield, but looked at the 2003/2004/2005 Toyota Prius hybrid VERY carefully as well. Nobody I know that has one gets NEAR the advertised mpg. They however do get a respectable 38/40.
The TDI really contradicts a lot of closely held beliefs. I think that is why states like CA treat them like they carry the plague. Or in extreme viewsthe TDI is the mechanic version of the devil, manufactured. 2004/2005/2006 TDI new car sales are BANNED, for example. Others include: one has to do 55 mph to get decent fuel mileage. In the TDI if I did 55 mph across Interstate 10 E, I would probably get 65 mpg and probably fallen asleep along the way. Or more likely been accordianed by a faster moving 80-90 mph tractor trailer double rig
In so far as the synthetic nexus is concerned, it also contradicts closely held beliefs. The 26,000 miles OCI, with Delvac One 5w40, being the most prominent.
(vs the almost dogmatic 3,000 miles OCI or risk engine death and destruction mantra)
So it is probably more than obvious, the technology and science is put into a product like Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One 5w40 Truck and Suv. Most folks either totally ignore this or gloss over it with the denial of already conducted scientific testing.
Well you know owners such as yourself running synthetics and longer oil changes are in a position with your new-ish cars of being like the 40 year old doctor telling the 80 year old person how to live longer. Until their cars hits some impressive mileages with those long oil changes, we really won't know if they were right or not. And even if they do reach 300K or 500K, we don't know if running on regular oil with religious shorter oil changes would have gotten them there anyway.
It's very tricky to prove any longer engine life advantage with synthetic oil.
I realize of course your mission is more about cost savings and resource savings rather than extended mileage and you are on sturdier ground there, with provable numbers.
I think there is one way to check the advantage that some synthetic oils offer. The real question is what conventional oil/s would anyone be comfortable running 25,000 mile intervals? I have to tell you, there are NONE that I would! without some other sophisticated additions such as bypass oil filters and pre oilers and much larger sumps. I also know that regular oil run with shorter oil changes will get you pretty close anyway.
Yes, cost savings in the form of labor cost and resources rates on the priority list.
I would also say that conventional oils have come a real long way. I ran 10,000 mile OCI's with conventional oil on Honda Civic owners manual and shop manual and web site recommendations.
Has anyone had better luck then I with just 13.9 mpg on the highway? I have installed MSD super conductor ignition cables with noticeable improvement and a throttle body spacer with a much noticeable improvement with no results of increased gas mileage.
I think there's a point where sheer weight and aerodynamics makes further improvements of any real consequence pretty unlikely. Actually of the things you named, I'd guess that synthetic oil would give a better result than either of the other things you did.
I had a 99 with the 5.2. Best I ever did was 18 mpg. Trip was thru Ohio at 55 mph the whole way. Reducing speed does save gas. Typically I got 13-15 mpg.
My earlier comment of, "Its a truck, dude!" was perhaps not self-explanatory, so I will explain now.
Over my years of large and small truck ownership and years of visiting truck forums here at Edmund's, I have learned that trucks get bad mileage. It may sound oversimplified, but trucks suck gas. Period.
EVERY truck owner wants to know how to get a few more feet out of a gallon. Well, you don't. Syn oil, air induction, bigger tires, high-ratio rear-ends... Its a truck, dude! In fact, Consumer Reports rated the Ram as the worst of the worst for mileage (I guess somebody had to hold that position). The few people that need to haul/tow are stuck with it. The rest of us who just "gotta-have-a-truck" need to get rid of our trucks if we want better mileage.
I would agree. If I had to get a truck and (the big) IF a diesel model was available, and if the oem's did not charge a HUGE premium, it would almost be a requirement to get a diesel. (with a manual transmission for further mpg boost.
I got a VW Jetta TDI with 42/49 mpg vs a gasser 2.0/1.8T of 29/32 mpg EPA, a 35% difference in fuel mileage is dramatic.
I wonder if some trucks use very low differential gearing in order to increase tow capacity at the expense of fuel mileage. Seems to me that in the big pickup market, especiall the 250/350 level, advertising larger towing capacity attracts more attention than EPA estimates. "Oh, 21 mpg, but will it haul a horse trailer?"
Back in 1998 I met a guy who had two Dodge Ram 2500 pickups, both equipped with the Cummins Turbo-Diesel. He told me that one had the full boat towing package and even lightly loaded it got about 18mpg. The other truck was not so equipped and as such had a lower numerical final drive ratio (longer legs if you will), and it routinely delivered over 24mpg.
So, would the truck with the longer legs be able to pull your horse trailer? Well, I suppose that depends upon whether you are talking about a 2 horse capacity trailer or one that can house 10 horses.
Speaking of a horse trailer, back when I was a kid I learned a trick from an old gray beard on how to coax a reluctant nag onto a horse trailer. 1) get a very long lead for the halter and run it in the back of the trailer and up through a window or such in front of the stall where you want said reluctant nag to be stowed, 2) position a person at the front of the stall who is able to take up the slack in the lead as the nag comes on board, 3) take a long buggy whip (long enough to stay out of the way of flying rear hooves) and wiggle the handle of the whip so that the very tip of the whip itself is flicking back and forth in a fairly high speed six inch wide pattern, 4) ease yourself forward so that the tip if the whip is tickling the rear ankles of our reluctant nag (and watch out for the aforementioned flying hooves), 5) follow the nag all of the way, keeping the tickling going as much as possible, 6) have the front person tie the lead when our subject is fully installed in his or her stall, and 7) close the damn gate. ;-)
Quite agree again, Host. It seems that truck buyers seek 1) towing/hauling (work output) capacity or 2) chrome "male enhancement". Neither itch is going to be scratched by advertising the EPA numbers.
The MPG buyer is not looking at big trucks and visa-versa. If the Fed didn't require it, trucks wouldn't post their fuel numbers at all, I suspect.
As for the gearing, the diff can certainly lead one way or the other but I think modern transmissions are capable of covering both extremes pretty well. As noted, the diesel is the best answer, but short, light load trips kill them. Historically, the makers haven't needed to put $ in to MPG R&D, but they will now. We are bound to see some improvement, but how much?
Too bad, really. I love the big trucks, but who can afford to feed them?
So, I was about to post that my 04 Dodge Ram Hemi, which was getting 14 mpg city on dino oil, now, with synthetic oil, got 6,000 miles on the last tankful, which on a 26 gal tank, comes out to 230 mpg highway...plus, with synthetic, my digestion has improved, my lower back moves freely, and my lawn only needs mowing once monthly, and my house no longer needs a paint job...ALL THIS WITH THE CHANGEOVER TO SYNTHETIC OIL...but, you probably don;t believe me, do you??????????????????????? :shades:
WOW! :surprise: After reading all these posts, either I have to re-think 50 years of experience, or you guys are spending way too much money for nothing.
I've tried probably every brand of oil on the market. I can't tell a nickel's worth of difference in any of them; all things being equal i.e. viscosity, synthetic etc. Same with filters. Well, maybe not filters. Maybe. As for changing oil every 3K miles...I personally feel this is a scam to sell more oil. Haven't you realized yet the oil companies are in bed with car makers?
Depending on who you talk to, oil doesn't break down; it just gets dirty. When I asked someone in the know which oil was best, he said: "the best oil is clean oil". Using that philosophy, I've gone thousands of miles without changing my oil. Usually more than a year. When it gets a quart low, I throw on a new filter and add quart. I've never had a problem. Nor do I ever expect to.
As a precaution, in case sludge has built up, yesterday I used a procedure I learned years ago. After draining the oil pan, I put in two quarts of oil and two quarts of kerosene. Let it idle for 30 minutes, drain and continue oil change in the usual manner. Much cheaper and more effective than some of that bottled crap found in auto part stores.
As for break-in procedure, I thought went out years ago. Today's engines are built (or so I'm told) to tolerance levels that no longer require break-in. Just climb in and go. Car makers and the dealers want you on a short leash. Once you drive away, you never have to go back if you don't want to. I have never gone back for the 30-60-90-thousand mile checkups. I don't have that kind of money. And, not doing it won't effect the warranty. Besides, there are plenty of independent places that will do it for less than half the cost.
Anyway, I feel we make too much of proper car care. The best care for a car is common sense.
If anyone is still reading this, sorry for carrying on. I find it hard not to on this subject.
Don't "bottle it up", Larry. How do you really feel?
I agree with much of what you say except for two things.
1) The "procedure" you learned years ago regarding putting kerosene in the crankcase...etc. I also learned years ago. It was a bad idea then and it is a bad idea now. To other readers: Don't do it. Instead, do the things that you know will keep sludge down and you won't have to yeild to witch-craft remedies. (Sorry Larry - seeing the bad experiences of others over the years makes me feel very strongly against this practice.)
2) I don't go for the 30/60/90 services either, but you and I can do that because we are under our cars often just looking at stuff. The vast majority of cars on the road in America never have their undersides soild by human hands until the 30/60/90 or until some major repair is needed. Now, I DO think the dealer's 30/60/90 services are one of the largest rip-off's in U.S. history and most of them should go to jail, but they provide the ONLY service most cars will ever get.
I for one would not want to go back to my 1970's VW Beetle oil change cycle of 1.5k to 3k OCI's vs my 2003 VW Jetta TDI of 25,000. (factory recommendation of 10k) If anything new cars seem to have longer intervals between scheduled maintenance and unscheduled maintenance. However the one big change is the maintenance and parts seem to cost more.
Or I should say our new Nissan minivan. It has 3K miles, and not sure if it was ok to use full synthetic I did the 1st oil change with regular Cheron (5W-30). By the way, is this an ok oil?
Is it all right to go with full synthetic oil this early in the engine's life? Opinions please! I used full synthetic on my 91 Geo storm with 110K miles and now the engine leaks oil (just slow seeps). Could the fully synthetic oil be the culprit?
"Witch-craft remedies"? I"m crushed. This practice was quite common back then.
Well, I'm glad I stirred up a couple of responses anyway.
Of course I didn't mean one should drive around for an extended period of time with a 50% mixture of oil and kerosene in the engine. A normal idle for 30 minutes is sufficient. I'm not sure what kind of damage can occur by doing this. Maybe if you revved the motor too high, but why would you?
I have a private mechanic that does all the stuff I can't or don't feel like doing. He'll do a major inspection, by the book, for around $200.00. The last time my dealership called me for the 30,000 mile service, they wanted over $700.00.
Taking reasonable care of a car does not have to be difficult or expensive. Back yard mechanics such as myself are pretty much out of business, what with specialized tools and diagnostic equipment needed. Luckily, today's cars don't need much attention. Check the oil and tires once in a while and don't beat the crap out of it, and you should get many years of good service. I speak from experience. I've been driving for 50 years.
Chevron 5-30 is considered by many to be one of the best non-synthetic oils you can buy. Mobil 1 full synthetic is better, and a bargain from Wal-Mart. Just carry a jug in to your dealer's express oil change lane and ask them to note on your invoice "customer supplied Mobil 1 5-30" for documentation purposes and ask for the empty jug back (so you know it's not going into a mechanic's Honda Civic).
Thanks for the replies guys. I did have Mobile 1 in mind but just not sure if full synthetic would actually damage the new engine. Could somebody shed some light on this?
”I did have Mobile 1 in mind but just not sure if full synthetic would actually damage the new engine.”
Hmmm, I’m not at all sure what you mean by “damage”, however, as a general statement I would say, “There is no way your engine will get more damaged internally by using Mobil-1 as opposed to using conventional oil, when driven under normal circumstances.”
I threw that last little bit in due to the following two reasons: 1) If you are in the habit of parking your car for a month or two at a time, especially if you park it outside. 2) If you are in the habit of using leaded gasoline (unlikely unless you are in Africa or some parts of Asia).
In the case of the former, due to synthetic oils’ superior stability, it not only runs off parts quicker once the engine is shut down, it also doesn’t cause varnish build up on internal parts like conventional oil. As a result, unless the engine is driven frequently, rust can build up on internal components, leading to premature engine failure.
In the case of the latter, synthetic oil has proven to be horribly incapable of holding TEL (lead) in suspension, and as such, lead would build up on piston rings and valve guides, resulting once again in premature engine failure.
In my case, I was an early adopter of synthetic oil when I started using it on my 1981 Audi 4000, and continuing that practice to the present. To date, I’ve never had any of my cars (11 of them totaling nearly 750,000 miles) suffer an oil related mechanical problem or oil related leak. In fact, in that time, none of my cars’ engines has ever had any kind of a mechanical problem or leak.
If you are inclined to use synthetic oil in your new car, then do it from the first oil change and never look back.
Is there a down side to this? Yup. I turned my much loved lease car in earlier this year and started driving our old Dodge Grand Caravan (we kept it for dump runs and Home Depot trips) until I decided what car to get next. Thinking that I could use an ailing minivan with 100,000 miles on it as half of an excuse to convince my wife that I need a new car, I started documenting all of its ills and hurts. The only problem is that so far at least, I’ve only spent a total of $82.00 for unscheduled maintenance, that and the engine is still not using a full quart of Mobil-1 between 7,500 mile oil changes.
Don't go away, Larry. "Stirring it up" is what makes these boards interesting!
Listening to, "Can I use M1 in my Nissan?" over and over again gets a little slow.
You've got me beat. I'm only driving 35 years. One thing I have learned is that those of us driving since the Kennedy Administration have a lot to offer.
Don't go away, Larry. "Stirring it up" is what makes these boards interesting!
As long as I can contribute and provoke thought, I'll hang around.
Speaking of oil, my service manager at the Cad/Olds dealer said they recommend Chevron oils. When I asked him about synthetics, he said it isn't worth the money. That to his knowledge, none of the techs, all of whom have 20+ years experience, don't use it. I've tried it more than once. Can't tell any difference by driving, but maybe the motor can. Right now, after my kerosene flush, I'm using Chevron 5-30 as the book suggests. Less than 15 bucks a case at Costco.
Filters is yet another bug-a-boo. Every brand claims to be the best. I had been using K&N, but I got tired of paying 11.00 for a filter. Fram offers too damn many options. I finally wound up at NAPA and bought their brand, which the sales guy said is made my Wick's, for around 3.59.
Judging by the sponsor logos on NASCAR, F-1 cars etc., if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
On a couple of websites, Wix/Napa Gold filters have gotten good ratings. Chevron Supreme Oil, ditto. Plenty sufficient for a push-rod engine with no "hot spots" and 3k oil changes. If you are driving a Camry, Passat, DMC 2.7, small high revving DOHC 4 banger etc., full synthetic oil doesn't sludge up nearly as quickly, or shear, and 5,000 mile oil changes make up for part of the price premium (some people claim longer oil changes with synthetic, but while the oil lasts, the additive packs still get used up).
Hope you flushed out that kerosene with an intermediate oil change. About a quart of oil - halft a quart of kerosene, for you - remains in the crankcase after any drain and refill.
Might need some updating here. I run OEM recommended 10k oci's with ExxonMobil Superflo 5w20 in a Honda Civic VP. This is of course conventional oil. I really have no qualms running Mobil One 0w-5w20 (synthetic) 15k to 20k OCI's after the meager warranty period of /3 yrs and/or 36k. The oem recommended oil filter change is every other or 20k miles. Incidently the vendor who makes oem Honda oil filters is FRAM.
Compared to the old days of lubrication of 3/5k MAX; these ARE the good OLE days!
I always jack up my van so I can get under it to change the oil. That and the driveway having a slight grade should help the oil drain more completely.
I don't know where that half quart is hiding. My oil pan is flat and the drain is at the very bottom rear. Anyway, I don't intend flushing the engine again. According to the service tech, and I verified it with GM, these engines are designed to "use" about a quart of oil per 2000 miles. I've kept track, and that's about right.
Thanks for the input. You opened my eyes to something I didn't know.
The "quart" isn't hiding in the pan. Its everywhere else the oil goes and it doesn't come out completely just by pulling the plug. Those bits of kerosene will stay in the engine for a good long time.
Also, who else, other than GM, would say that using a quart every 2k is designed in to their engines and that it is normal? A co-worker's brand-new Northstar drank a quart every 1000 miles. A lemon-law attorney got his money back for him.
GM designs engines to use a quart every 2000 miles and their stock value is sinking. Any coincidence?
To chime in for first time in quite a while to this board.....
Remember Marvel Mystery Oil ? That is what I used to flush with believing as you Larry, old ways die hard, but no longer do that. That was in an old muscle car with 50k on it that had not been driven in 3-4 years, only turned over by hand and then MMO put in the spark plug holes. Still have the car but now use it more and make oil change once a year regardless of miles I drive it (usually 3 to 4k a year))
Nowadays and in accordance with needs I have a 2000 Silverado w/5.3 and I change every 5k with regular dino juice. No oil related issues other than consumption of a 1/2 qt. when towing, which I would expect based on GM's superior (sic) build quality and that lovely sound of piston slap on start-up.
I do run pure syntec oil in my 03 Mini Cooper as equipped and suggested by mfg. I go 15k on the change and use maybe a 1/2 court in that time frame now with 62k on the clock. 15k on an oil change ? that's ludicrous I thought, but it's working Mini however use a "countdown clock" for service intervals, which I don't go by since they would have me changing oil every 18 to 19k according to this method which is based on driving style as told. (I should video tape it and send it to them, I'm not easy on the car that demands to be driven yuk, yuk)
I like the long intervals and the change only costs me 30 minutes of my time and $28.50 for the oil/filter (5 qts @ $4.50 ea and $6 filter).
I swore I would never use this stuff but I changed with the times and technology. My uncle use to work the test engine room at Texaco Reseach Ctr. yrs ago and said the synthec had merit based on their tests 30 yrs ago. Things have only improved since then.
I have an 02 VW jetta 1.8T with 88K miles on it. I have noticed ALOT of sludge when changing my oil every 5K miles. I drive about 1500 miles per month and have been using a cheaper Valvoline 5W-40 oil. I am going to start changing my oil every 3000 miles and switch oils. Have you or anyone you know used Mobil 1 0w-40? Any recomendations? :confuse:
You're driving a turbocharged car and NOT using synthetic oil? Yikes! To my way of thinking, even if you changed your oil every 1,000 miles you'd still be putting you're turbo bearings at risk. Were I in your shoes, I'd get that non-synthetic stuff out of there ASAP, put in Mobil-1 0W-40 for say 3,000 miles and then change it. Given the superior cleaning power of the Mobil-1, that oil after the first change should be a mess given that it will be cleaning up after your old oil. Sticking with Mobil-1, I'd probably go back to a 5K oil change for a while and then once the engine has been cleaned up, I'd extend the OCIs to at least VW's recommended OCI (7,500 or 10,000?).
Best Regards, Shipo
P.S. I've been using Mobil-1 for well over twenty years on cars that were both normally aspirated as well as blown, and have never had anything but a perfectly clean engine that operated flawlessly (turbochargers included) to mileages well over 100,000 miles.
While I do not have any personal experiences with the VW 2.0 and the 1.8T engines, if you follow any of the VW enthusiast's web sites, they are known to have a higher % of SLUDGE -a -AMATICs. So I am not real familar with the conflict resolution, say: whose nickel to clean the sludge out.
Not wanting to be the victim of a drive by shooting, i.e., "shooting the messenger" BUT. Since your warranty period appears to be over at 50k, I would see what VW Corporate will do in your case. The worst and normal case: you are SOL. In that case, the Bosch procedure can be done by a dealer who offers that service and I have read it is app 100-200 to "hot pressure chemical flush" a sludge a matic. Others will make the case to use products like AutoRX or FP60 (fuel system) with LP60. (additive to oil) Indeed these are probably good as longitudinal preventative measures. However, I can not see what you are in reality dealing with.
This of course does not cure the root cause of the problem. The root cause is the designed engines tend to run HOTTER in areas/places that EXCEED the engine oil's vaporization point or more vernacularly, beyond the engine oils ability to cope. So what is left is the vaporized products; aka sludge. Now use of a VW 505.00 oil would tend to lessen the chance of it happening, but this in no way corrects the underlying condition.
I would tend to use either the 5w40 Mobil One Truck and Suv or the Mobil One 0w40. Best of luck. Let us know what happens and what you wind up finding out and doing.
I currently run a 2003 VW Jetta TDI, going on 67k miles. I have been running 25,000 mile OCI's with Mobil One 5w40 Truck and Suv, aka Delvac One 5w40. There is little to no oil consumption during the OCI enough to warrant topping unless one is particular about those types of things (I am so app 4 to 8 oz, or 1/8 to 1/4 of a quart.)
If you are using Valvoline Synpower (full synthetic) 5W-40, I believe it satisfies the VW spec.
Here's what the Valvoline website says:
"SAE 5w40: Provides the widest range of protection available in the SynPower motor oil line. Delivers outstanding cold temperature pumpability for rapid oil circulation at start-up. Provides a thick oil film for ultimate wear protection. Exceeds all car and light truck manufacturer’s warranty requirements for the protection of gasoline, diesel and turbocharged engines where an API SJ or CF oil is recommended. Exceeds European ACEA A3/B3 and all preceeding API Gasoline Engine Oils. Meets or exceeds the engine performance requirements for BMW, Bentley, Corvette (GM4718M), Jaguar, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Rolls Royce, Volkswagen, Volvo and other high performance vehicles."
I also remember a VW flyer that listed Synpower 5W-40 as approved for diesel - but not the latest PD Turbodiesel - use.
That having been said, you shouldn't be seeing sludge. VW has provided an extended warranty for 1.8Ts which sludge, provided owners can document regular oil changes (NEVER more than 5,000 miles) and proper oil (basically, a 5W-40 full synthetic).
Mobil 1 0W-40 is definitely the best, but neither oil should sludge.
If you think you have an actual sludge problem, first take it to the dealer to verify the sludge issue and see if they have a solution (remove and clean oil pan and filter screen?) under their extended warranty program. If they want $$ from you, check out the Auto RX system, which I haven't used but many recommend:
Be cautious about the length of time you leave dino oil in your turbo if you use the recommended dinor oil rinse; the issue with dino oil isn't the lubrication, its thermal breakdown and sludging. I wouldn't leave dino oil in for more than 500 miles.
I haven't tried this, so it doesn't have my actual recommendation, but I plan on trying it in my cars every 50,000 miles (if I ever keep a car that long).
IF you have a diesel, that is another story, Valvoline 5W-40 might not be the right oil.
I'd also have the dealer change the oil a few times and ask them to give you feedback on why there is sludge. This is the time when you want to document the frequency of the oil changes and oil used carefully, and not be out there doing it yourself in case you have a sludge claim against VW (they have extended the warranty on sludge if you can document oil changes using approved oil - Valvoline 5-40 being one that is, I believe, approved).
From this point on, pay the $50-70 to have a VW dealer do the oil changes, so you can document you changed the oil on time and with the right product (you can carry in Mobil 1). Although the law permits you, or Jiffy Lube etc., to do maintenance work, nothing is easier to verify than dealer service.
Hey I was watching a commercial about Castrol Syntec and how it says that it increases your hp so you use all that you have. I don't usually listen to commercials because I could careless what they say. Usually it is crap. I decided just for the heck of it to change the oil on my 2005 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.3 with 15k on it. I put this oil in and they are right. The difference in power is very apparent. I have put synthetic oils in other cars before and not noticed this sort of change. Tell me has castrol run into something here? It seems to work well with my van and the mileage is better so far to. I plan on changing the oil about every 10-15K with just filter changes in between that I can do myself.
What do you all think about this new Castrol Marketing campaign. I would normally not give it the time of day but it appears to be working very well. Trust me you add some power to a Grand Caravan and you notice it immediately. It is not like adding Synthetit to a dodge viper.
Comments
Worth mentioning - Honda Accord 87 recommended oil change interval 10k miles or 12K Km. Honda Accord 97 - 3k miles ????!!!!! My new Ford Freestyle 5K miles.
When I got to home base, I could not wait to wash off the FL salt laden film off the car and set about doing a 26,000 mile OCI and oil filter and (65,000 mile) fuel filter change. The oil used before/after is/was Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One Truck & SUV. I fueled 11 times with range of 45-52 mpg.
I probably should not admit this, given the continued spike in oil/gas/diesel prices, but I did not drive to effect/affect any mpg or "economy" goals. The reported mpg range was merely a snapshot and not the result of attempts to wring out the best mpg. I probably do not have the obsessive compulsive behavior ( such as some Honda Insight and Toyota Prius owners
There was some standardization, such as 1. 38/37 PSI fronts, 36/35 PSI rears 2. on filling: on first click off- DO NOT refill etc. 3. AC on 99% of the time.
I agree, there is a certain obsessiveness about fuel mileage or length of oil changes that becomes somewhat counterproductive.
The TDI really contradicts a lot of closely held beliefs. I think that is why states like CA treat them like they carry the plague. Or in extreme viewsthe TDI is the mechanic version of the devil, manufactured.
In so far as the synthetic nexus is concerned, it also contradicts closely held beliefs. The 26,000 miles OCI, with Delvac One 5w40, being the most prominent.
(vs the almost dogmatic 3,000 miles OCI or risk engine death and destruction mantra)
So it is probably more than obvious, the technology and science is put into a product like Delvac One 5w40 aka Mobil One 5w40 Truck and Suv. Most folks either totally ignore this or gloss over it with the denial of already conducted scientific testing.
It's very tricky to prove any longer engine life advantage with synthetic oil.
I realize of course your mission is more about cost savings and resource savings rather than extended mileage and you are on sturdier ground there, with provable numbers.
Yes, cost savings in the form of labor cost and resources rates on the priority list.
I would also say that conventional oils have come a real long way. I ran 10,000 mile OCI's with conventional oil on Honda Civic owners manual and shop manual and web site recommendations.
I have installed MSD super conductor ignition cables with noticeable improvement and a throttle body spacer with a much noticeable improvement with no results of increased gas mileage.
My earlier comment of, "Its a truck, dude!" was perhaps not self-explanatory, so I will explain now.
Over my years of large and small truck ownership and years of visiting truck forums here at Edmund's, I have learned that trucks get bad mileage. It may sound oversimplified, but trucks suck gas. Period.
EVERY truck owner wants to know how to get a few more feet out of a gallon. Well, you don't. Syn oil, air induction, bigger tires, high-ratio rear-ends... Its a truck, dude! In fact, Consumer Reports rated the Ram as the worst of the worst for mileage (I guess somebody had to hold that position). The few people that need to haul/tow are stuck with it. The rest of us who just "gotta-have-a-truck" need to get rid of our trucks if we want better mileage.
Or get the diesel version thereof. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I got a VW Jetta TDI with 42/49 mpg vs a gasser 2.0/1.8T of 29/32 mpg EPA, a 35% difference in fuel mileage is dramatic.
So, would the truck with the longer legs be able to pull your horse trailer? Well, I suppose that depends upon whether you are talking about a 2 horse capacity trailer or one that can house 10 horses.
Speaking of a horse trailer, back when I was a kid I learned a trick from an old gray beard on how to coax a reluctant nag onto a horse trailer. 1) get a very long lead for the halter and run it in the back of the trailer and up through a window or such in front of the stall where you want said reluctant nag to be stowed, 2) position a person at the front of the stall who is able to take up the slack in the lead as the nag comes on board, 3) take a long buggy whip (long enough to stay out of the way of flying rear hooves) and wiggle the handle of the whip so that the very tip of the whip itself is flicking back and forth in a fairly high speed six inch wide pattern, 4) ease yourself forward so that the tip if the whip is tickling the rear ankles of our reluctant nag (and watch out for the aforementioned flying hooves), 5) follow the nag all of the way, keeping the tickling going as much as possible, 6) have the front person tie the lead when our subject is fully installed in his or her stall, and 7) close the damn gate. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
The MPG buyer is not looking at big trucks and visa-versa. If the Fed didn't require it, trucks wouldn't post their fuel numbers at all, I suspect.
As for the gearing, the diff can certainly lead one way or the other but I think modern transmissions are capable of covering both extremes pretty well. As noted, the diesel is the best answer, but short, light load trips kill them. Historically, the makers haven't needed to put $ in to MPG R&D, but they will now. We are bound to see some improvement, but how much?
Too bad, really. I love the big trucks, but who can afford to feed them?
Do you?
OMMMMMMMMM...
I've tried probably every brand of oil on the market. I can't tell a nickel's worth of difference in any of them; all things being equal i.e. viscosity, synthetic etc. Same with filters. Well, maybe not filters. Maybe. As for changing oil every 3K miles...I personally feel this is a scam to sell more oil. Haven't you realized yet the oil companies are in bed with car makers?
Depending on who you talk to, oil doesn't break down; it just gets dirty. When I asked someone in the know which oil was best, he said: "the best oil is clean oil". Using that philosophy, I've gone thousands of miles without changing my oil. Usually more than a year. When it gets a quart low, I throw on a new filter and add quart. I've never had a problem. Nor do I ever expect to.
As a precaution, in case sludge has built up, yesterday I used a procedure I learned years ago. After draining the oil pan, I put in two quarts of oil and two quarts of kerosene. Let it idle for 30 minutes, drain and continue oil change in the usual manner. Much cheaper and more effective than some of that bottled crap found in auto part stores.
As for break-in procedure, I thought went out years ago. Today's engines are built (or so I'm told) to tolerance levels that no longer require break-in. Just climb in and go. Car makers and the dealers want you on a short leash. Once you drive away, you never have to go back if you don't want to. I have never gone back for the 30-60-90-thousand mile checkups. I don't have that kind of money. And, not doing it won't effect the warranty. Besides, there are plenty of independent places that will do it for less than half the cost.
Anyway, I feel we make too much of proper car care. The best care for a car is common sense.
If anyone is still reading this, sorry for carrying on. I find it hard not to on this subject.
Cheers,
Larry
I agree with much of what you say except for two things.
1) The "procedure" you learned years ago regarding putting kerosene in the crankcase...etc. I also learned years ago. It was a bad idea then and it is a bad idea now. To other readers: Don't do it. Instead, do the things that you know will keep sludge down and you won't have to yeild to witch-craft remedies. (Sorry Larry - seeing the bad experiences of others over the years makes me feel very strongly against this practice.)
2) I don't go for the 30/60/90 services either, but you and I can do that because we are under our cars often just looking at stuff. The vast majority of cars on the road in America never have their undersides soild by human hands until the 30/60/90 or until some major repair is needed. Now, I DO think the dealer's 30/60/90 services are one of the largest rip-off's in U.S. history and most of them should go to jail, but they provide the ONLY service most cars will ever get.
Is it all right to go with full synthetic oil this early in the engine's life? Opinions please! I used full synthetic on my 91 Geo storm with 110K miles and now the engine leaks oil (just slow seeps). Could the fully synthetic oil be the culprit?
Well, I'm glad I stirred up a couple of responses anyway.
Of course I didn't mean one should drive around for an extended period of time with a 50% mixture of oil and kerosene in the engine. A normal idle for 30 minutes is sufficient. I'm not sure what kind of damage can occur by doing this. Maybe if you revved the motor too high, but why would you?
I have a private mechanic that does all the stuff I can't or don't feel like doing. He'll do a major inspection, by the book, for around $200.00. The last time my dealership called me for the 30,000 mile service, they wanted over $700.00.
Taking reasonable care of a car does not have to be difficult or expensive. Back yard mechanics such as myself are pretty much out of business, what with specialized tools and diagnostic equipment needed. Luckily, today's cars don't need much attention. Check the oil and tires once in a while and don't beat the crap out of it, and you should get many years of good service. I speak from experience. I've been driving for 50 years.
I better shut up now. :sick:
Cheers,
Larry
Hmmm, I’m not at all sure what you mean by “damage”, however, as a general statement I would say, “There is no way your engine will get more damaged internally by using Mobil-1 as opposed to using conventional oil, when driven under normal circumstances.”
I threw that last little bit in due to the following two reasons:
1) If you are in the habit of parking your car for a month or two at a time, especially if you park it outside.
2) If you are in the habit of using leaded gasoline (unlikely unless you are in Africa or some parts of Asia).
In the case of the former, due to synthetic oils’ superior stability, it not only runs off parts quicker once the engine is shut down, it also doesn’t cause varnish build up on internal parts like conventional oil. As a result, unless the engine is driven frequently, rust can build up on internal components, leading to premature engine failure.
In the case of the latter, synthetic oil has proven to be horribly incapable of holding TEL (lead) in suspension, and as such, lead would build up on piston rings and valve guides, resulting once again in premature engine failure.
In my case, I was an early adopter of synthetic oil when I started using it on my 1981 Audi 4000, and continuing that practice to the present. To date, I’ve never had any of my cars (11 of them totaling nearly 750,000 miles) suffer an oil related mechanical problem or oil related leak. In fact, in that time, none of my cars’ engines has ever had any kind of a mechanical problem or leak.
If you are inclined to use synthetic oil in your new car, then do it from the first oil change and never look back.
Is there a down side to this? Yup. I turned my much loved lease car in earlier this year and started driving our old Dodge Grand Caravan (we kept it for dump runs and Home Depot trips) until I decided what car to get next. Thinking that I could use an ailing minivan with 100,000 miles on it as half of an excuse to convince my wife that I need a new car, I started documenting all of its ills and hurts. The only problem is that so far at least, I’ve only spent a total of $82.00 for unscheduled maintenance, that and the engine is still not using a full quart of Mobil-1 between 7,500 mile oil changes.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Listening to, "Can I use M1 in my Nissan?" over and over again gets a little slow.
You've got me beat. I'm only driving 35 years. One thing I have learned is that those of us driving since the Kennedy Administration have a lot to offer.
As long as I can contribute and provoke thought, I'll hang around.
Speaking of oil, my service manager at the Cad/Olds dealer said they recommend Chevron oils. When I asked him about synthetics, he said it isn't worth the money. That to his knowledge, none of the techs, all of whom have 20+ years experience, don't use it. I've tried it more than once. Can't tell any difference by driving, but maybe the motor can. Right now, after my kerosene flush, I'm using Chevron 5-30 as the book suggests. Less than 15 bucks a case at Costco.
Filters is yet another bug-a-boo. Every brand claims to be the best. I had been using K&N, but I got tired of paying 11.00 for a filter. Fram offers too damn many options. I finally wound up at NAPA and bought their brand, which the sales guy said is made my Wick's, for around 3.59.
Judging by the sponsor logos on NASCAR, F-1 cars etc., if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
Cheers,
Larry
Hope you flushed out that kerosene with an intermediate oil change. About a quart of oil - halft a quart of kerosene, for you - remains in the crankcase after any drain and refill.
Compared to the old days of lubrication of 3/5k MAX; these ARE the good OLE days!
:surprise:
5k, 10k, 15k, 20k, 25-30 per oil change
vs
$14.80 for DIY Mobil One 0w-5w20 synthetic oil/oil filter change.
10k, 14.80 per oil change
I knew I spelled "Wix" wrong.
I always jack up my van so I can get under it to change the oil. That and the driveway having a slight grade should help the oil drain more completely.
I don't know where that half quart is hiding. My oil pan is flat and the drain is at the very bottom rear. Anyway, I don't intend flushing the engine again. According to the service tech, and I verified it with GM, these engines are designed to "use" about a quart of oil per 2000 miles. I've kept track, and that's about right.
Thanks for the input. You opened my eyes to something I didn't know.
Larry
Also, who else, other than GM, would say that using a quart every 2k is designed in to their engines and that it is normal? A co-worker's brand-new Northstar drank a quart every 1000 miles. A lemon-law attorney got his money back for him.
GM designs engines to use a quart every 2000 miles and their stock value is sinking. Any coincidence?
To chime in for first time in quite a while to this board.....
Remember Marvel Mystery Oil ? That is what I used to flush with believing as you Larry, old ways die hard, but no longer do that. That was in an old muscle car with 50k on it that had not been driven in 3-4 years, only turned over by hand and then MMO put in the spark plug holes. Still have the car but now use it more and make oil change once a year regardless of miles I drive it (usually 3 to 4k a year))
Nowadays and in accordance with needs I have a 2000 Silverado w/5.3 and I change every 5k with regular dino juice. No oil related issues other than consumption of a 1/2 qt. when towing, which I would expect based on GM's superior (sic) build quality and that lovely sound of piston slap on start-up.
I do run pure syntec oil in my 03 Mini Cooper as equipped and suggested by mfg. I go 15k on the change and use maybe a 1/2 court in that time frame now with 62k on the clock. 15k on an oil change ? that's ludicrous I thought, but it's working
Mini however use a "countdown clock" for service intervals, which I don't go by since they would have me changing oil every 18 to 19k according to this method which is based on driving style as told. (I should video tape it and send it to them, I'm not easy on the car that demands to be driven yuk, yuk)
I like the long intervals and the change only costs me 30 minutes of my time and $28.50 for the oil/filter (5 qts @ $4.50 ea and $6 filter).
I swore I would never use this stuff but I changed with the times and technology. My uncle use to work the test engine room at Texaco Reseach Ctr. yrs ago and said the synthec had merit based on their tests 30 yrs ago. Things have only improved since then.
Now on with the discussion.......................
Ray T. :shades:
Best Regards,
Shipo
P.S.
I've been using Mobil-1 for well over twenty years on cars that were both normally aspirated as well as blown, and have never had anything but a perfectly clean engine that operated flawlessly (turbochargers included) to mileages well over 100,000 miles.
Not wanting to be the victim of a drive by shooting, i.e., "shooting the messenger" BUT. Since your warranty period appears to be over at 50k, I would see what VW Corporate will do in your case. The worst and normal case: you are SOL. In that case, the Bosch procedure can be done by a dealer who offers that service and I have read it is app 100-200 to "hot pressure chemical flush" a sludge a matic. Others will make the case to use products like AutoRX or FP60 (fuel system) with LP60. (additive to oil) Indeed these are probably good as longitudinal preventative measures. However, I can not see what you are in reality dealing with.
This of course does not cure the root cause of the problem. The root cause is the designed engines tend to run HOTTER in areas/places that EXCEED the engine oil's vaporization point or more vernacularly, beyond the engine oils ability to cope. So what is left is the vaporized products; aka sludge. Now use of a VW 505.00 oil would tend to lessen the chance of it happening, but this in no way corrects the underlying condition.
I would tend to use either the 5w40 Mobil One Truck and Suv or the Mobil One 0w40. Best of luck. Let us know what happens and what you wind up finding out and doing.
I currently run a 2003 VW Jetta TDI, going on 67k miles. I have been running 25,000 mile OCI's with Mobil One 5w40 Truck and Suv, aka Delvac One 5w40. There is little to no oil consumption during the OCI enough to warrant topping unless one is particular about those types of things (I am so app 4 to 8 oz, or 1/8 to 1/4 of a quart.)
Here's what the Valvoline website says:
"SAE 5w40: Provides the widest range of protection available in the SynPower motor oil line. Delivers outstanding cold temperature pumpability for rapid oil circulation at start-up. Provides a thick oil film for ultimate wear protection. Exceeds all car and light truck manufacturer’s warranty requirements for the protection of gasoline, diesel and turbocharged engines where an API SJ or CF oil is recommended. Exceeds European ACEA A3/B3 and all preceeding API Gasoline Engine Oils. Meets or exceeds the engine performance requirements for BMW, Bentley, Corvette (GM4718M), Jaguar, Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, Rolls Royce, Volkswagen, Volvo and other high performance vehicles."
I also remember a VW flyer that listed Synpower 5W-40 as approved for diesel - but not the latest PD Turbodiesel - use.
That having been said, you shouldn't be seeing sludge. VW has provided an extended warranty for 1.8Ts which sludge, provided owners can document regular oil changes (NEVER more than 5,000 miles) and proper oil (basically, a 5W-40 full synthetic).
Mobil 1 0W-40 is definitely the best, but neither oil should sludge.
If you think you have an actual sludge problem, first take it to the dealer to verify the sludge issue and see if they have a solution (remove and clean oil pan and filter screen?) under their extended warranty program. If they want $$ from you, check out the Auto RX system, which I haven't used but many recommend:
http://auto-rx.com/pages/faqs.htm#U5
Be cautious about the length of time you leave dino oil in your turbo if you use the recommended dinor oil rinse; the issue with dino oil isn't the lubrication, its thermal breakdown and sludging. I wouldn't leave dino oil in for more than 500 miles.
I haven't tried this, so it doesn't have my actual recommendation, but I plan on trying it in my cars every 50,000 miles (if I ever keep a car that long).
IF you have a diesel, that is another story, Valvoline 5W-40 might not be the right oil.
I'd also have the dealer change the oil a few times and ask them to give you feedback on why there is sludge. This is the time when you want to document the frequency of the oil changes and oil used carefully, and not be out there doing it yourself in case you have a sludge claim against VW (they have extended the warranty on sludge if you can document oil changes using approved oil - Valvoline 5-40 being one that is, I believe, approved).
From this point on, pay the $50-70 to have a VW dealer do the oil changes, so you can document you changed the oil on time and with the right product (you can carry in Mobil 1). Although the law permits you, or Jiffy Lube etc., to do maintenance work, nothing is easier to verify than dealer service.
What do you all think about this new Castrol Marketing campaign. I would normally not give it the time of day but it appears to be working very well. Trust me you add some power to a Grand Caravan and you notice it immediately. It is not like adding Synthetit to a dodge viper.