Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited December 2017
    Meanwhile in Europe - and this is a carb 2nd gen car.

    Appears to have privateer rally history, no price = if you have to ask, you can't afford it

    Pretty car, but pardon me?

    This is reasonable for Euroland, final run car, nice colors

    Another guilty pleasure and interesting historical piece (wincingly expensive, somewhat awkward looks, judged a failure), and that color combo is hard to beat

    Vinyl top isn't bad on this superdeluxe Fiat 130

    Hold me back, these are so hard to find here

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,341
    Those Benzes look almost better than new. Remarkable work. I can only assume there is a market at those prices, though it would not include me.

    The Bentley & RR do not impress me as much. I found it odd how those cars in the '80s retained some rather unimpressive details, like the steering wheels and the instrument bezels with exposed screw heads.

    Compared to the others, that Yamaha seems like a genuine bargain.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited December 2017
    I think that's ahead of the market even in Europe. The day restored fintails are approaching six figures is when I contemplate restoration.

    The same seller also has this being sold as the "basis" for a restoration - aka, it needs everything. No mention if it runs or drives, although at this price, I have to hope so. This is an air suspension car, and the engine would be very expensive to rebuild. Quite a rare car, too, with production of about 500 units per year (for 3 years) -the LWB W112 is the rarest (non-wagon) fintail.

    Rolls-Royce of that time were anachronisms - a 1980 Rolls-Royce is more like something from 1965. Not necessarily a bad thing, save for the hydraulics. They had odd plain steering wheels until the airbag era. The depreciation floor on a Shadow/Corniche convertible or Camargue seems to be around 50K, so demand is coming from somewhere. I have a thing for those for some reason. When I was a kid, I had a model of a Camargue - my first large scale model. I could have picked a racing car or supercar, but I picked that odd looking thing.

    If that bike was local, it'd be gone by now. I never see bikes of that age and size on the market for long, unless they are complete disasters. I'd want it as a display piece more than something to ride on all but rare occasions. I think there's still some appreciation potential in high spec flamboyant 80s and maybe early 90s era sportbikes.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,700
    A little elbow grease, and this one is all sorted out!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I can't see how you'd even prove that was once a roadster. Well-aged scrap there, as you can find genuine or repro parts for those everywhere at reasonable prices.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    fintail said:

    I can't see how you'd even prove that was once a roadster. Well-aged scrap there, as you can find genuine or repro parts for those everywhere at reasonable prices.

    Probably worth near that in parts if they aren't rusted. The frame would be useful. Some Model A restorers insist on original "Henry Ford Metal".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    fintail said:

    I think that's ahead of the market even in Europe. The day restored fintails are approaching six figures is when I contemplate restoration.

    The same seller also has this being sold as the "basis" for a restoration - aka, it needs everything. No mention if it runs or drives, although at this price, I have to hope so. This is an air suspension car, and the engine would be very expensive to rebuild. Quite a rare car, too, with production of about 500 units per year (for 3 years) -the LWB W112 is the rarest (non-wagon) fintail.

    Rolls-Royce of that time were anachronisms - a 1980 Rolls-Royce is more like something from 1965. Not necessarily a bad thing, save for the hydraulics. They had odd plain steering wheels until the airbag era. The depreciation floor on a Shadow/Corniche convertible or Camargue seems to be around 50K, so demand is coming from somewhere. I have a thing for those for some reason. When I was a kid, I had a model of a Camargue - my first large scale model. I could have picked a racing car or supercar, but I picked that odd looking thing.

    If that bike was local, it'd be gone by now. I never see bikes of that age and size on the market for long, unless they are complete disasters. I'd want it as a display piece more than something to ride on all but rare occasions. I think there's still some appreciation potential in high spec flamboyant 80s and maybe early 90s era sportbikes.

    Can we just say it?--those 70s and 80s Rolls and Bentleys were just awful. Talk about a company "resting on its laurels".
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Good point with the frame, that's what a rod builder wants.
    Mr_Shiftright said:


    Probably worth near that in parts if they aren't rusted. The frame would be useful. Some Model A restorers insist on original "Henry Ford Metal".

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Maybe that's the bizarre attraction, they were malaise at its peak. I still wouldn't kick a blue cabrio out of my garage (but it would need to be free and come with free maintenance) :)
    Mr_Shiftright said:


    Can we just say it?--those 70s and 80s Rolls and Bentleys were just awful. Talk about a company "resting on its laurels".

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I would be willing to make a healthy wager that you could pick one of those out at random, and attempt to drive it 500 miles in a day, and it wouldn't make it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    In 24 hours, 500 miles is only about 20 mph. I bet it could do that. But probably not in 8 hours :)

    Still, a very high depreciation floor for these.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well you'd have to drive at night then....in an old British car. Good luck with that. B)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Flashlights and duct tape, problem solved B)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, a lighting upgrade!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Just be sure it's not a Lucas flashlight. Maybe a durable GM unit like the transmissions in those cars.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,341
    fintail said:

    Flashlights and duct tape, problem solved B)

    As long as its not a Lucas flashlight. :D

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Took the old car out for a drive today - it had sat untouched for 6 weeks exactly. 42 days idle, but I guess the cold isn't hard on the battery. It was about freezing outside when I started the car, and maybe in the low 40s in the unheated garage. Started on the first turn, and ran as sweet and smooth as ever - I think the car prefers cooler weather. I even made a "cold start" video (excuse the low light and noise from a loud jacket):

    https://youtu.be/M0PR8tVaCpM

    I then took a short starting video after moving the car. It starts in an interesting way when cold but primed - starts with just a click of the starter, must be something to do with MFI:

    https://youtu.be/qkpKhE7CWKY

    And the usual gratuitious pics. One from a distance:



    And the typical profile shot:



    Very happy with the car today, had a nice relaxing drive and no issues.

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,700
    Must be some help from the FI. I can only dream about any of my old rigs starting that fast! I sometimes get quick ignition out of the C20 when it is warm, but even that is a rarity.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    It's a fun quirk. Cold engine, recently started, it fires up with just a crank, almost like barely tapping it. Once warmed up, it starts more normal, with a few cranks on average. Even when hot, when it can be a little unhappy, seldom more than 5 cranks.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited December 2017
    My car has something of a twin - I kind of want those rear blinds
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,421
    Any Christmas Presents out there

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1988-bmw-528e/6419782022.html I know so little about these cars, but I'd bet TLC means Talking Lotsa Cash

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1971-chevrolet-c10-lwb-2wd/6426510884.html With the current old truck patina mania, I've seen people want more for less

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1958-bmw-isetta-microcar/6408888046.html Really expensive curiosity

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1984-cadillac-coupe-deville/6410220434.html I know Caddies don't pull big money, but this looks like a real time capsule car

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1957-oldsmobile-super-88/6417723388.html Nice restoration but not a loved car. I assume the price is a pipe dream for a 4 door

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1958-chevy-impala-sport-coupe/6416055871.html I like this much more for similar money

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1972-porsche-911/6426270518.html This looks like it could have some potential

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    1972 Porsche 911T was a problematic year and generally one should avoid this model. The MFI seems to have made the car worse, not better, and there are all kinds of one-year engineering quirks. When you add to that the body rot on a unibody, and the $20K ++ engine rebuild, I'm not sure why anyone would want this car.

    I'd say, buy it very cheap and make an "outlaw" Porsche out of it.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,421
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    1972 Porsche 911T was a problematic year and generally one should avoid this model. The MFI seems to have made the car worse, not better, and there are all kinds of one-year engineering quirks. When you add to that the body rot on a unibody, and the $20K ++ engine rebuild, I'm not sure why anyone would want this car.

    I'd say, buy it very cheap and make an "outlaw" Porsche out of it.

    It looks like the seller is quite a 'collector' with the 68 Elky and what I think is a 55/6 Chevy
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,341
    edited December 2017
    The 1984 Coupe de Ville really is well-preserved. It looks like the kind of car a wiseguy in a black suit and fedora might have driven back then. Offered by Sal, in Syosset. Hmmm. B)

    The Chevy pickup is badly overpriced, esp. given it is a long bed which are not seen as desirable as a short box. By contrast, the similar 1970 model my neighbor had big trouble selling last year had nice 2-tone paint, original everything, and only needed a few things. He ended up taking less than $6K Cdn after it being on the market most of the summer.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,058
    I would take that Caddy in a heartbeat.  

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,488
    I like the C10.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,753
    gsemike said:

    Any Christmas Presents out there

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1988-bmw-528e/6419782022.html I know so little about these cars, but I'd bet TLC means Talking Lotsa Cash

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1971-chevrolet-c10-lwb-2wd/6426510884.html With the current old truck patina mania, I've seen people want more for less

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1958-bmw-isetta-microcar/6408888046.html Really expensive curiosity

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1984-cadillac-coupe-deville/6410220434.html I know Caddies don't pull big money, but this looks like a real time capsule car

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1957-oldsmobile-super-88/6417723388.html Nice restoration but not a loved car. I assume the price is a pipe dream for a 4 door

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1958-chevy-impala-sport-coupe/6416055871.html I like this much more for similar money

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1972-porsche-911/6426270518.html This looks like it could have some potential

    528e automatic in rough shape with needs. Not sure anybody will want that.

    C10 is not bad, and I like the color of the bench, but its a longbed, so the price is likely optimistic.

    I like that 88 quite a bit. I think you are correct about the price, though, largely because it is 4 doors AND "restored" with many incorrect parts.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, I'd say the Olds is probably worth about $19K--$21K if it runs out nicely and if the engine swap were done neatly.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,421
    stickguy said:

    I like the C10.

    At least here, the old truck market seems pretty nuts. Money seems reasonable
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    gsemike said:

    Any Christmas Presents out there

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1988-bmw-528e/6419782022.html I know so little about these cars, but I'd bet TLC means Talking Lotsa Cash

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1971-chevrolet-c10-lwb-2wd/6426510884.html With the current old truck patina mania, I've seen people want more for less

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1958-bmw-isetta-microcar/6408888046.html Really expensive curiosity

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1984-cadillac-coupe-deville/6410220434.html I know Caddies don't pull big money, but this looks like a real time capsule car

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1957-oldsmobile-super-88/6417723388.html Nice restoration but not a loved car. I assume the price is a pipe dream for a 4 door

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1958-chevy-impala-sport-coupe/6416055871.html I like this much more for similar money

    https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1972-porsche-911/6426270518.html This looks like it could have some potential

    The BMW needs a "tune up" eh? yeah, I'll bet it does in addition to a new engine!

    A/C doesn't work? Imagine that? At least they didn't say "It just needs a charge"

    The Cadillac has what may be the worst engine ever produced...The wonderful HT 4100!

    The Olds and the 58 Impala? total Mickey Moused. 'm willing to bet that "409" is the 348 it came wth!

    That Porsche? Run, don't walk!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Yeah, I'd say the Olds is probably worth about $19K--$21K if it runs out nicely and if the engine swap were done neatly.


    Really?? I must be TOTALLY out of touch!

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,488
    if the Porsche was really cheap, and I had a spare hopped up engine I needed something to do with, and had lots of time and a well equipped garage (that I knew what to do with), could maybe create a nice resto-mod type car out of it. I have none of those things of course, but if you gave it to me, I would be happy to park it in the garage, and push it outside every so often to wash it, and show it off for the neighbors.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    57 Olds would probably do better on correct wheels/caps and wide whites.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,753
    edited December 2017
    The Olds would do better with the correct drivetrain!

    OR, alternatively, a PROPER engine swap and not just a slightly younger engine pulled out of the junkyard.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    So Brembo says the $600 upgrade to 380 mm rotors from the 350 mm rotor big brake kit will work for my car and solve the fit issues (assuming those huge things still fit in my 19"x 9 wheels). They probably should, but 380 mm is huge!

    That's got to be like RS7 brakes.

    The amount of goodwill they are offering is to do the upgrade swap out at a cost of $300 to me. Could be better, but if $300 makes all my problems go away, who am I to say no? Remember, you can't take the money with you when you die.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    $300 is the price to make all brake troubles go away? Or was it $4K plus $300 for an upgrade to make the $4K brake kit work? How much is the restocking fee to make the big brake kit trouble go away?
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    qbrozen said:

    The Olds would do better with the correct drivetrain!

    OR, alternatively, a PROPER engine swap and not just a slightly younger engine pulled out of the junkyard.

    I didn't see any engine photo and if it's a grungy old thing that will certainly hurt value. But really, any 50s restomod that's all shiny and chrome-y and runs well should bring high teens.
  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,610
    fintail said:

    My car has something of a twin - I kind of want those rear blinds

    Only 78000km, that's less than 50000 mi, wow. Not sure if I like the rear blinds, reminds me of cars driven by little old gray hairs in Florida when I was growing up. Now that I'm turning gray quickly I'll bite my tongue. Your fintail looks better, clean and crisp.

    2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    edited December 2017
    Low mileage claim, but MBs didn't get 6 digit odometers until the 70s, and I see more than one non-original surface on that car. It looks fine though, and interesting to see it with a price about 50-100% higher than it would bring here.

    Were those blinds a thing in FL? I have seen them on Australian cars, but nowhere else. In my area, I suppose they wouldn't be used much.

    sda said:


    Only 78000km, that's less than 50000 mi, wow. Not sure if I like the rear blinds, reminds me of cars driven by little old gray hairs in Florida when I was growing up. Now that I'm turning gray quickly I'll bite my tongue. Your fintail looks better, clean and crisp.

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,341
    fintail said:

    My car has something of a twin - I kind of want those rear blinds

    Here you go - and a lot cheaper than buying the whole car.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-60s-STUDEBAKER-REAR-WINDOW-GLASS-VENETIAN-BLINDS-ACCESSORY/391937654505?hash=item5b414dfee9:g:o1EAAOSwHYpZ9iY4&vxp=mtr

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Interesting, and being from an early-mid 60s Stude, it might also bolt right on to a fintail B)

    Still probably overkill for our few months of sun, just an obscure period accessory that has always caught my eye.
    ab348 said:



    Here you go - and a lot cheaper than buying the whole car.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-60s-STUDEBAKER-REAR-WINDOW-GLASS-VENETIAN-BLINDS-ACCESSORY/391937654505?hash=item5b414dfee9:g:o1EAAOSwHYpZ9iY4&vxp=mtr

  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,610
    fintail said:

    Low mileage claim, but MBs didn't get 6 digit odometers until the 70s, and I see more than one non-original surface on that car. It looks fine though, and interesting to see it with a price about 50-100% higher than it would bring here.

    Were those blinds a thing in FL? I have seen them on Australian cars, but nowhere else. In my area, I suppose they wouldn't be used much.



    sda said:


    Only 78000km, that's less than 50000 mi, wow. Not sure if I like the rear blinds, reminds me of cars driven by little old gray hairs in Florida when I was growing up. Now that I'm turning gray quickly I'll bite my tongue. Your fintail looks better, clean and crisp.

    They were popular to block the FL sunshine from ruining the interior and reducing solar heat. This was before a/c in cars was so common. I remember dad having to have the factory ac in our '63 Olds serviced multiple times.

    2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I suppose that could have inhibited sun damage on the rear deck area, but it seems like it wouldn't have had a huge impact keeping the heat out. I thought they were for keeping out glare.

    MB didn't even have factory air when fintails were new - always a dealer-installed item, usually by the name "Kuhlmeister" or "Frigi-King". Most fintails don't have it, but it is an apparent easy retrofit, an under-dash unit (I have seen trunk mounted units too, exceedingly rare). The climate where I live isn't hot, so I haven't been tempted, although I passed up a parts car way back when I was a student, the car was solid and had a complete Kuhlmeister, but I had nowhere to store it.
    sda said:


    They were popular to block the FL sunshine from ruining the interior and reducing solar heat. This was before a/c in cars was so common. I remember dad having to have the factory ac in our '63 Olds serviced multiple times.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    I went to the a local auto auction this morning, not an auction of new cars, but of dealer back lot rejects, estate consignments, abandoned or donated vehicles, etc. A few highlights:

    This has been on the lot for awhile, I suspect nobody is bidding scrap value, and the owner doesn't want to push it in that direction:

    image

    An old resto-mod, lots of incorrect surfaces but it somehow presented well (maybe as it was damp this morning):

    image

    1984 model, quite late for one of these. Nice enough condition, but not running:

    image

    1980 model, 57K miles indicated and likely correct, actually running and driving:

    image

    Haven't seen one of these for a long time:

    image

    The highlight for me was something not on the website - a 1981 300SD (W126) Early production, build date October 1980. Great color combo of dark blue on palomino (tex). Euro lights, original wheels, it was all there but quite aged inside and out - interior was grimy, paint tired, something like 350K on the odometer. As I expected to see it on the website, I just snapped a pic of this - the plastic reflector/light piece between the taillights and license plate is a rare period accessory, has some value:



    I found it maybe not surprising that they had a pair of very similar MY 2000 Accord V6 both with bad transmissions - the pro domestic guys would eat that up. Also a ton of miled up turn of the century Audis - you'd have to be brave. I saw a young woman looking at a ~2000 A6 wagon and exclaim "it has a third row!". I wanted to pipe up "lady, run, don't walk away".


  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,488
    I like the Fiat. Would take it to play with and see what I could accomplish. Probably not much, but fun to have in the garage.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    fintail said:

    I suppose that could have inhibited sun damage on the rear deck area, but it seems like it wouldn't have had a huge impact keeping the heat out. I thought they were for keeping out glare.

    MB didn't even have factory air when fintails were new - always a dealer-installed item, usually by the name "Kuhlmeister" or "Frigi-King". Most fintails don't have it, but it is an apparent easy retrofit, an under-dash unit (I have seen trunk mounted units too, exceedingly rare). The climate where I live isn't hot, so I haven't been tempted, although I passed up a parts car way back when I was a student, the car was solid and had a complete Kuhlmeister, but I had nowhere to store it.

    sda said:


    They were popular to block the FL sunshine from ruining the interior and reducing solar heat. This was before a/c in cars was so common. I remember dad having to have the factory ac in our '63 Olds serviced multiple times.

    My fintail had a Kuhlmeister and it worked great! That car was my daily driver for two years.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    stickguy said:

    I like the Fiat. Would take it to play with and see what I could accomplish. Probably not much, but fun to have in the garage.

    They are nice cars, and ride and handle much better than the equivalent MGB. But they do lack the MG's rugged simplicity. As for the contest between British electrics and Italian--I'd say "jump ball" on that one. For some reason, the British thought the Earth was positive and the rest of the universe negative. The Italians gave you freedom of choice as to whether you would like your car's electrics to have grounds or not.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    Did it impact performance? That's my main concern.

    For the Fiat, they are light cars, so pushing is easy :)
    Mr_Shiftright said:


    My fintail had a Kuhlmeister and it worked great! That car was my daily driver for two years.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, it wasn't much of a drain on power. With those cars, you have to just be sure to keep them revved up all the time. Don't lug a fintail's engine, it doesn't like it. In that regard, a stickshift version is probably easier to drive with AC.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I once had a 1969 VW Beetle that had dealer installed A/C. I used to take my VW's to Dieter who was VERY German and he thought it was sacrilegious to have installed A/C in an air cooled VW.

    I would be driving 60 MPH and the compressor would cycle dropping my speed by a good 5 MPH! Then it would cycle off and my speed would increase accordingly.

    I have to agree with Dieter. That little VW should have never had A/C installed!

    I will say, it would freeze me out of that tiny car!
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