Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

stickguy · October 2018

Yes, that was a buy bid. They send the truck, hand you a check, and take it away

benjaminh · October 2018

stickguy said:
Yes, that was a buy bid. They send the truck, hand you a check, and take it away

As you know, the challenge will be to find blis and CarPlay on a used car at Carvana. So far I'm not having any luck finding both of those features in a nice luxury car or suv at Carvana. If you can live without those things there are of course plenty of nice choices. But now that I have them I do like both of those things in a car.

nyccarguy · October 2018

tifighter said:

benjaminh said:
Compared to putting gas in my TLX, charging a Tesla model 3 would probably save me about a thousand dollars a year. But comparably equipped it seems to cost at least $20k more than a TLX 2.4. That's knocked down by the federal incentive by $7.5k for now, but even with that you're looking at c. 13 years before you make up the difference in price. Compared to a Honda Insight a Tesla model 3 will save about $350 a year—but it costs almost 30k more than an Insight. Yes, the Tesla is more stylish and much faster. But once those tax incentives from the feds phase out next year for Tesla....I do see a fair number of Teslas in Louisville, including recently a Model X, which looked in some ways like a large, futuristic, mutated VW Bug! When the light turned green the Tesla Model X accelerated very fast. There is a Tesla supercharging station about a mile from our house.
For me, ultimate TCO isn't what the Model 3 is all about, so cross shopping one with an Insight would never enter my thought process. I suppose someone looking at an upper trim Accord Hybrid might consider a 3, since the 3 is amazing when it comes to efficiency. But they are different sizes and in totally different performance categories.

At the end of the day, the Model 3 was meant to compete with the 3 series, and at the moment, 328, 340 and M3. It seems to be doing this pretty well. As for the tax credit, there will continue be a surge in demand to take advantage of it. But ultimately, the car is compelling on its own and I think it will find steady sales long term and the starting price keeps creeping down. They have the charging network. And they haven't even begun international sales yet. And wait until the Y comes out; it will be the cash cow for Tesla.

I was going to say. I'm far from "the internal combustion engine is going to be dead by 20XX" and "RA RA TESLA." person. I'm skeptical about TESLA as a company (they have supply, production, as well as fit & finish issues) as well as Elon Musk. I know that power is "dirty" no matter how you get it. As a car, I think it is a marvelous idea. The whole car has something like less than 20 moving parts (4 of which are wheels). I like the idea that the car does have enough range for me to drive a few days, but it is a cool thing to just be able to "plug in" every night and have a full charge by the time I am ready to leave at 6:15 the next AM.

If you compare it to other vehicles that it is meant to compete with and don't see it as an "I'm going to save the world by driving a Tesla" car, then I do believe it compares favorably. An AWD Model 3 with the long range battery and the upgraded 19" wheels stickers for $54,500 before state rebates ($3K in CT) and Federal Tax Credits. There isn't a problem getting a 330xi to sticker for that price or a 340xi if you go light on the options. The 3 series gets incentives from BMW in the form of lease cash, inflated residuals to make leasing attractive, or straight cash incentives. I'd have to drive the Tesla to see if I like it. I knew from the get go that there weren't going to be any "$35,000 base models."

So far, the few people I know that have Teslas (they are far from electric car/Tesla Kool Aid drinkers) are very happy. A friend who had a DINAN modified ///M5 before hand that was in the shop constantly. He says while the TESLA is fast (he has a P85D Model S), it is too quiet. He "gave" it to his wife over a year and a half ago (he now has a 2 Door JK Hard Rock Rubicon & a Silverado with the 6.2L engine). He says it is the easiest and most reliable car he's ever owned.

A good customer of mine has a Model X P100D. Drives it from NYC to FL numerous times per year. It is his 2nd Tesla. He loves it. He has a RR Drop Head in FL that he NEVER drives anymore since he got the Model X and is planning on getting rid of it.\

What's the correct answer? I have NO idea. If you are planning on getting an electric car in a year or 2, why not take advantage of the FULL $7,500 tax incentive (we all paid the money to the Gov't anyway, so why not take it back if they are giving it?)

I've only got 17 months left until my Infiniti is paid off. As much as I'd like to say I'm going to pay it off (I currently owe $10,940.07) and keep it for 150,000 miles, how likely is that to happen? I average 20 mpg over my 5-6 day commute plus shuttling my kids around. It costs me about $60 to fill up with PUG every week (ish). The tax credit & rebate essentially wipe out what I owe plus I have some equity in the Q40 that I will most likely pocket (and use to put towards the principle balance of my HELOC). I just don't know if I like the prospect of an almost $800 per month car payment (the Tesla Model 3) for 6 years (3.85%) when I am not even a year into my Pilot ownership (and it's $523/month for 5 year payment with $10,500 I put down).

fintail · October 2018

I think the 3 is the most appealing Tesla. The S is a bit big (and the X is painfully expensive and has a less than appealing image in my eyes), and the material quality is a couple steps below the price point IMO. The 3 wears the aero egg styling better, and at that price point, the material quality isn't offensive. I'd consider one, once there's more and cheaper infrastructure and maybe just a bit more range - I still have qualms about being stuck at some random vacant lot in Ritzville or Burlington for an hour in the middle of a road trip. I also live in a building of skinflints, and I can't imagine the garage getting chargers installed by the building, nor the odds of that getting better once the crazy tax gifts expire, so until then, it's a tough sell. But if tech advances at the current rate, who knows what might exist in 5 years.

kyfdx · October 2018

Can't hack the face of the Model 3. The S is gorgeous by comparison.
(Not a fan of looks on the X, either)

But, I agree with it being the sweet spot in price/utility/performance

corvette · October 2018

The one piece windshield / glass roof on the Model X is gorgeous. I’m sure it’s a wonderful vehicle, but I think I’d stick with a Model S and have a more truck-like SUV in the stable.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2018

I'm glad you mentioned the mythology of "saving the world" and all that, but I think it is worth mentioning that a Tesla is a very complex car, and so offering it up as a paragon of simplicity doesn't strike me as all that accurate. There may be fewer moving parts but you'd best pray that they don't stop moving. And I wish you the best of luck in that regard!

Besides, "moving parts" are fine if they continue to function. So very few American are going to keep their cars beyond 200K anyway, and even a run of the mill ICE car can do that these days.

The point of this rambling is to point out that EVs will occupy a niche for those who like what they do, and ICE for those that like what they do. Neither technology has the power to dominate the other. This is not a case of the iPhone vs. a 7 lb portable telephone. EVs are not new tech at all.

nyccarguy · October 2018

corvette said:
The one piece windshield / glass roof on the Model X is gorgeous. I’m sure it’s a wonderful vehicle, but I think I’d stick with a Model S and have a more truck-like SUV in the stable.

My customer with the Model X LOVES driving through NYC with it and looking up at the buildings briefly when he stops for lights.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2018

I like a sunroof in the Mini so that I can see the traffic lights! Low cut windshields are very annoying.

nyccarguy · October 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
I'm glad you mentioned the mythology of "saving the world" and all that, but I think it is worth mentioning that a Tesla is a very complex car, and so offering it up as a paragon of simplicity doesn't strike me as all that accurate. There may be fewer moving parts but you'd best pray that they don't stop moving. And I wish you the best of luck in that regard!

Besides, "moving parts" are fine if they continue to function. So very few American are going to keep their cars beyond 200K anyway, and even a run of the mill ICE car can do that these days.

The point of this rambling is to point out that EVs will occupy a niche for those who like what they do, and ICE for those that like what they do. Neither technology has the power to dominate the other. This is not a case of the iPhone vs. a 7 lb portable telephone. EVs are not new tech at all.

There are also stories of people whose Teslas are involved in accidents and have to wait MONTHS for certain parts. Their insurance only covers rental reimbursement for 30 days and after that they are paying out of pocket for a rental AND the monthly note on their $75 - $100+K model S.

I didn't mean to imply that a TESLA is a simple car. I'm sure it is like anything mechanical vs. electronic. The electronics work until they don't.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2018

I didn't mean to imply that you meant to imply that. I was using the universal "you", as in the Christmas song--"you'd better watch out......". Santa isn't threatening us individually.

fintail · October 2018

I wonder what the replacement cost is for one of those fancy big curved windshields. I suppose in this Belle Epoque Part Deux, those who laid down 100K+ on an X don't care. (but they definitely deserve the tax break lolol)

Mr_Shiftright · October 2018

I think everything on a Tesla is quite expensive to repair. The body construction is quite complex.

corvette · October 2018

The parts delays seem to be a case of them trying to meet production numbers (at the expense of their existing customers).

suydam · October 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
I'm glad you mentioned the mythology of "saving the world" and all that, but I think it is worth mentioning that a Tesla is a very complex car, and so offering it up as a paragon of simplicity doesn't strike me as all that accurate. There may be fewer moving parts but you'd best pray that they don't stop moving. And I wish you the best of luck in that regard!

Besides, "moving parts" are fine if they continue to function. So very few American are going to keep their cars beyond 200K anyway, and even a run of the mill ICE car can do that these days.

The point of this rambling is to point out that EVs will occupy a niche for those who like what they do, and ICE for those that like what they do. Neither technology has the power to dominate the other. This is not a case of the iPhone vs. a 7 lb portable telephone. EVs are not new tech at all.

I have to disagree. I do think EVs are the future of cars. Having driven one for some time now, the combination of effortless power, quiet drive and charging rather than refueling makes them more enjoyable vehicles. Most people I know who have taken the leap into the EV universe don’t plan on going back to gas engine powered vehicles. I think it’s going to be a slow, but steady displacement.

stickguy · October 2018

If so, the country needs a serious investment in the electric grid infrastructure to support it. I also don’t see everyone being able to do it. Definitely not people that have to street park!

ab348 · October 2018

I would be a lot more enthused about Tesla vehicle if it wasn't for the man behind it.

kyfdx · October 2018

suydam said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
I'm glad you mentioned the mythology of "saving the world" and all that, but I think it is worth mentioning that a Tesla is a very complex car, and so offering it up as a paragon of simplicity doesn't strike me as all that accurate. There may be fewer moving parts but you'd best pray that they don't stop moving. And I wish you the best of luck in that regard!

Besides, "moving parts" are fine if they continue to function. So very few American are going to keep their cars beyond 200K anyway, and even a run of the mill ICE car can do that these days.

The point of this rambling is to point out that EVs will occupy a niche for those who like what they do, and ICE for those that like what they do. Neither technology has the power to dominate the other. This is not a case of the iPhone vs. a 7 lb portable telephone. EVs are not new tech at all.

I have to disagree. I do think EVs are the future of cars. Having driven one for some time now, the combination of effortless power, quiet drive and charging rather than refueling makes them more enjoyable vehicles. Most people I know who have taken the leap into the EV universe don’t plan on going back to gas engine powered vehicles. I think it’s going to be a slow, but steady displacement.

Don't you live in SoCal?

Move some place cold, then see how you like your battery range, then.

tifighter · October 2018

fintail said:
I wonder what the replacement cost is for one of those fancy big curved windshields. I suppose in this Belle Epoque Part Deux, those who laid down 100K+ on an X don't care. (but they definitely deserve the tax break lolol)

A guy on the Tesla forum had to replace it on his X, and it was around $1000. Not cheap, but not insane either.

henryn · October 2018

Internal combustion engines are, to my mind, a very inefficient, very poor way of creating power. Especially with reciprocating pistons. I still find it strange that rotary engines could not be perfected and did not take over, completely replacing piston engines. But they didn’t, so move on.

Electric motors are inherently a better idea. Yes, you still have to produce the electricity, and we aren’t likely to get enough electricity from solar or wind anytime soon. So you have to burn some kind of fossil fuel. Natural gas is abundant, and cheap. And if you centralize the use, it should be much easier and more effective to control emissions at one power plant than in a million separate cars running ICE engines.

Just my thoughts, YMMV.

tjc78 · October 2018

tifighter said:

I wonder what the replacement cost is for one of those fancy big curved windshields. I suppose in this Belle Epoque Part Deux, those who laid down 100K+ on an X don't care. (but they definitely deserve the tax break lolol)
A guy on the Tesla forum had to replace it on his X, and it was around $1000. Not cheap, but not insane either.

The special windshield required for HUD on my 2012 LaCrosse was nearly that much ... for an aftermarket unit. A GM unit was well over $1000

tifighter · October 2018

I do think the 3 shows that an EV can be more than niche; there is over 100K and growing on US roads now. The Y should take it to the next level.

At the end of the day, all you can do is drive one and decide if it is for you. Truthfully, most of the perceived hurdles can be cleared, but it doesn't matter if you don't like the car in the first place. And I mean, if THIS group doesn't like an excuse for a test drive, then we should all turn in our membership cards now...

fintail · October 2018

I am surprised the windshield isn't more, that's roughly the cost of many mainstream cars with sensors.

More Xs replacing the ubiquitous Bellevue drone 3er won't be bad, maybe more fuel for the fintail to swill. Just hope we don't get brownouts.

stickguy · October 2018

Range and recharging is always going to be the biggest obstacle IMO.

One likely more than the other for different people. I’m more likely to do a plug in hybrid than a full electric

28firefighter · October 2018

For us, while we are paying for child care costs that amount to basically a second mortgage (heaven help me if we end up having a second), Tesla will remain out of reach simply because I can continue to keep our vehicle budget down with sub-$400/month leases.

I'd love to end up with one of our cars as an EV, if only because the type of commuting my wife does to the park and ride and that I do to run errands really lends itself to the EV setup.

qbrozen · October 2018

When they make an electric car that compares favorably in every way to an ICE equivalent, I'll be there. But, until then, I'm burnin dino bones.

And, when I say in every way, I mean in every way. So, to take my car, for example, that's 0-60 in less than 5.5 secs, AWD, hatchback utility, sub-$400 sign and drive, and I'll even settle for 200-mile range on a 10-degree day with the heat blasting.

fintail · October 2018

I wonder if we'll have quickly switchable batteries. That would do an immense amount to quell my range issues. It's not so much the range, but the time spent to refuel. When I can get 800 miles of range in my Bluetec in no more than 10 minutes, and where there are replenishment options in virtually every town, it's hard to match. I'd be fine with similar acceleration to the MB, which is adequate but far from a rocket - in the traffic here, I seldom want more than I have anyway.

breld · October 2018

We enjoyed our brief experience with the i3, other than the overall range itself - so we see an EV in our future. My wife strongly considered the Audi e-tron, but we were hoping it would come in a bit less expensive. Even with the tax credits, she was happier going with the used Macan.

We like the VW concepts previewing what's coming over the next few years. Those are likely candidates.

Or we also like the Hyundai Kona - so the EV version of that may be an option.

tjc78 · October 2018

28firefighter said:

For us, while we are paying for child care costs that amount to basically a second mortgage (heaven help me if we end up having a second), Tesla will remain out of reach simply because I can continue to keep our vehicle budget down with sub-$400/month leases. I'd love to end up with one of our cars as an EV, if only because the type of commuting my wife does to the park and ride and that I do to run errands really lends itself to the EV setup.

Isn’t it great? I’m three days a week for two kids and it’s $1200

My mom is taking them an extra come Jan, and then in Sept my son starts full day public kindergarten. The end is near, not that I wish my kids getting older because I love this age.

pensfan83 · October 2018

We could never repay my parents or my in-laws for the money they helped us save by lending a hand with child care when both kids were younger. Since monetary support was adamantly refused we have worked to covertly repay them through other ways.

breld · October 2018

Nice Integra getting ready to be sold on BaT:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1995-acura-integra-8/

The seller bought it on BaT in January of this year for $9,100. Looks like the original owner is looking to buy it back and make a couple grand in the process. More power to him.

pensfan83 · October 2018

Nice. It's a lot harder to find clean, unmolested GS-R's than it is Preludes. I don't know if that has to do with aftermarket support or not.

stickguy · October 2018

That is nice looking. Since I didn’t fit well in the one I owned (2000 MY I think, maybe 2001) I doubt this is any better.

28firefighter · October 2018

We pay $1550/month for one kid, full-time, Toddler age. Absolute insanity. I wouldn't give up this time for anything, but my gosh is it pricey.

tifighter · October 2018

28firefighter said:
For us, while we are paying for child care costs that amount to basically a second mortgage (heaven help me if we end up having a second), Tesla will remain out of reach simply because I can continue to keep our vehicle budget down with sub-$400/month leases.

I'd love to end up with one of our cars as an EV, if only because the type of commuting my wife does to the park and ride and that I do to run errands really lends itself to the EV setup.

This raises a good point: they aren't leasing the 3 yet. They can always play that card later if they want to.

suydam · October 2018

28firefighter said:
For us, while we are paying for child care costs that amount to basically a second mortgage (heaven help me if we end up having a second), Tesla will remain out of reach simply because I can continue to keep our vehicle budget down with sub-$400/month leases.

I'd love to end up with one of our cars as an EV, if only because the type of commuting my wife does to the park and ride and that I do to run errands really lends itself to the EV setup.

A Volt (plug in hybrid) is sub-$400 lease with all the bells and whistles. I imagine the Bolt is too.

28firefighter · October 2018

That Integra didn't go to the original owner, but this seller definitely took a bath. Sold for $8k on this and he paid $9250 + 5% buyers fee + transport from CA to TX on it in January.

pensfan83 · October 2018

Ouch

corvette · October 2018

Eh, I think some of us have lost more than that (in dollars, if not percentage, as well) on short-term car ownership periods.

xwesx · October 2018

tifighter said:
I do think the 3 shows that an EV can be more than niche; there is over 100K and growing on US roads now. The Y should take it to the next level.

At the end of the day, all you can do is drive one and decide if it is for you. Truthfully, most of the perceived hurdles can be cleared, but it doesn't matter if you don't like the car in the first place. And I mean, if THIS group doesn't like an excuse for a test drive, then we should all turn in our membership cards now...

How does one go about test driving a Tesla? Aren't they factory order only?

28firefighter · October 2018

They have demo models available at certain locations. You schedule an appointment online.

benjaminh · October 2018

The Tesla model 3 is probably going to be the third best-selling car in the US for 2018, behind only the Camry and the Accord. Next year it might even sell more than the Accord? Maybe by 2020 the Model 3 will be challenging even the Camry? For that they will probably need to run the Fremont factory around the clock. Or are they already doing that....

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-sales-record-september/

"....In both May and June, Tesla Model 3 sales exceeded 6,000 units, but that’s tiny compared to the explosion of sales in July, which amounted to 14,250.

Think that’s a big number? Well…it was. That is, until August when it shot up to 17,800.

September will be one to remember, that’s for sure. And it’s not just Model 3 sales that took off for Tesla.

Ready for them beyond expectations sales numbers? Aren’t we all…

By our estimations, Tesla sold an epic 22,250 Model 3s in September in the U.S...."

benjaminh · October 2018

Unlike a previous poster, I need to be focused on the total cost to own for a car. Although the Tesla Model 3 might compare favorably to the TCO of a BMW with an msrp of $55k or so, it's a huge amount more expensive when compared to the new Acura TLX I'm leasing.

In terms of environmental stuff, I'm afraid to say our electric power plants in my area are powered by coal, and so the benefit for the environment for a Tesla is no doubt there but maybe not that significant. Also I'm guessing that in about 10 years the batteries in a Model 3 will need replacing, and maybe I missed it but I don't know what Tesla is doing about recycling those. And I'm also guessing that getting replacement batteries will cost several thousand dollars, compared to a maybe c. $400 100k tune-up for a TLX. As the time for replacement batteries for Teslas approach, I'm guessing that resale values for used ones being sold now will fall by quite a lot. But maybe I'm missing something? One last point—I know the highway range of the Tesla 3 is pretty good, but with the TLX's 17 gallon tank you can go over 500 miles on the highway.

tbirdmarco · October 2018

Good evening all, happy Friday, did you get a chance to post them here this morning don’t think. Have a good weekend all enjoyed reading all about it when I am in here today,

henryn · October 2018

corvette said:
Eh, I think some of us have lost more than that (in dollars, if not percentage, as well) on short-term car ownership periods.

Raising hand (sheepishly) -- yeah, that would be me.

stickguy · October 2018

man, I think some of you are paying as much for daycare as I just finished paying for college. And that was harsh. I am happy to be done with all that now. Though next spring, it will be hard not having any dependents to deduct. This is the first year the princess will be fully on her own for taxes. But, I am saving enough not paying her freight to make up for it.

Teslas? They just opened a showroom near me. Oddly, right next to the Mitsubishi dealer and kia dealer, and across from the dodge/jeep place. I assume that little dealer group must have the Tesla franchise too. Maybe when I am out that way next time I will stop and look at a 3.

stickguy · October 2018

I keep thinking I should just keep my car. But I really want a nice driver's throne, and I think that will tip the scales.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2018

suydam said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
I'm glad you mentioned the mythology of "saving the world" and all that, but I think it is worth mentioning that a Tesla is a very complex car, and so offering it up as a paragon of simplicity doesn't strike me as all that accurate. There may be fewer moving parts but you'd best pray that they don't stop moving. And I wish you the best of luck in that regard!

Besides, "moving parts" are fine if they continue to function. So very few American are going to keep their cars beyond 200K anyway, and even a run of the mill ICE car can do that these days.

The point of this rambling is to point out that EVs will occupy a niche for those who like what they do, and ICE for those that like what they do. Neither technology has the power to dominate the other. This is not a case of the iPhone vs. a 7 lb portable telephone. EVs are not new tech at all.

I have to disagree. I do think EVs are the future of cars. Having driven one for some time now, the combination of effortless power, quiet drive and charging rather than refueling makes them more enjoyable vehicles. Most people I know who have taken the leap into the EV universe don’t plan on going back to gas engine powered vehicles. I think it’s going to be a slow, but steady displacement.

There's presently no infrastructure to support such a leap in EV market, neither the grid or the service and repair personnel. And, don't hold your breath for the Feds do to anything about it.

The EV market is very small right now, and EVs are expensive. There's no EV you can buy without incentive and tax breaks (which will go away), that beats the average price paid for a new ICE. Costs will have to come way down.

There's also the issue of post-warranty expense, which would (and should) scare off a lot of people. Tesla repair costs are staggering, say the Tesla Motors Club forums.

I may jump in someday, but not soon. I didn't find my EV test drives all that much fun. But then, I understand that "fun" isn't a primary concern for a lot of people, and/or their idea of fun is different than mine.

benjaminh · October 2018

stickguy said:
I keep thinking I should just keep my car. But I really want a nice driver's throne, and I think that will tip the scales.

The wisest choice financially might be to keep your Elantra Sport. It has power, good handling, CarPlay, and lots of its warranty left.

That's kind of where I was with my 2016 Accord, which had all of those things too. There was nothing wrong with it functionally—but the stereo had mediocre sound and it lacked HondaSensing. Getting a better stereo and adaptive cruise control etc. were two reasons. But now 4 months into leasing the TLX as you know I'm really enjoying the experience beyond those two things—including the better seats, better suspension, better steering, better transmission, etc., etc.

I think almost all of us here think about our vehicles a lot more than the average person. If, and only if, you can find the right luxury suv or car at the right price I think it's probably going to be worth it to you to make the change. At your age, if you can afford it, I think it is worth something more a month to really enjoy the car that you drive.

suydam · October 2018

I felt the same way about my ‘13 Accord. It did everything so well, but not much excitement and it was on the large side for my tastes. Really glad I switched to the Volt.

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