Spent a little time in the new car yesterday, both as driver and front and rear passenger.
Quick observations:
Surprise! It has a "lit" auto-down driver's window switch. I was happy to find the "lit" feature for night use.
Moonroof
Good - It's like driving in a convertible, year round.
Bad - When fully open, the wind noise is considerable -- especially in the back seat. It is much noiser than the open moonroof in my Explorer. If you didn't open the roof all the way, it was much quieter.
My son was driving, and I was in the back seat with the roof open and windows up. It created a "drumming" effect, and you could feel air pressure build up in your ears. We cracked the windows open and the air pressure went away.
It also seemed quieter if you closed the sun shade. There seems to be a fair amount of wind noise. I may try moving the roofrack cross bars to see if that improves the noise level.
Bob – I have a 99-S with an aftermarket moonroof that is maybe 2/3’s the size of yours. The wind pressure you refer to is called “buffeting” and can be reduced in 2 ways. First, as you noted, opening a rear window (just an inch or so) eliminates much of the effect. Second, you may want to look into a wind deflector for the front edge of the moonroof. I have on and it makes a big difference.
I’ve noted that others have commented on wind noise at highway speeds w/wo moonroof. Maybe mine is an anomaly, I hear very little. Moving the cross bars on the roof rack may help. Keep us posted on the results of your experiment.
Subaru really should call it a "sky light," not a moonroof. Whenever you walk into a house with a sky light, it always feels much lighter, airier and very spacious; much as if you were outside, and not inside. You get that same feeling in the S Premium, when the sunshade and/or the roof is open. The whole inside of the vehicle just "lights up."
This topic has been discussed numerous times before on this forum. However, last night I spent about 20 miles in the back seat, so I want to add these comments to the discussion:
The back seat is NOT uncomfortable. It's just not nearly as comfortable as the front seat. Nor is it as comfortable as the rear seat in an Outback.
I'm about 5'10", and my son was driving. He's also about 5'10", and I was sitting directly behind him. I had adequate legroom, so that was not a problem. I found the rear seat back angle to be a bit more vertical than I would have liked. It's not as bad as sitting in a church pew, but it's close. I would also have liked a fold-down center armrest.
Hopefully for 2003, Subaru will stretch the wheelbase a bit, add a rear backrest recline feature (again), put the multi-link IRS from the Outback on the Forester (in order to get smaller strut towers for better seat reclining capability), as well as add a fold-down center armrest (with dual cupholders).
Mike- I'm shocked....how can you in good conscious, even suggest that someone seriously consider a Ford? Much less a new model Ford? Hasn't the Escape's 6 recalls (and counting) as well as the Focus's multiple recalls conclusively demonstrated that Ford stands for: Fix Or Repair Daily. Oh, I almost forgot about the recently announced 2nd delay in the roll-out of the new Explorer due to "unspecified quality control issues".
To add fuel to the fire, I believe I read that several thousand existing Explorers will be recalled (among other Ford and GM vehicles) due to defective seatbelt latches.
Drew/aling Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
I know Frank, sometimes I am crazy; hear me out. Being an American, I still pray for the day that Detroit designs a vehicle that measures up to those of Japan (perhaps Germany) and has quality on par with the Japanese. Yes, I am probably delusional. But I still crave it. I have been hosed like most of us with garbage designs and build quality from GM, Ford, and Chrysler products (I'm stereotyping, oops, generalizing; exceptions exist).
I hope the Foci problems are gremlins in the first-year manufacturing process. I find the Focus styling very appealing and the alloys on the (IIRC basic) model are sharp (but not my favorite -- too many spokes). And it's fairly priced.
FHI mostly designs and engineers all Subarus in Japan (consultants sometimes for body design, even US ones FHI builds the NA market Impreza and Forester in Japan. SIA builds the NA market Legacy and Outback in Indiana (with an engine plant coming online too). I'd rather have all that research and development by a US company. So even though Detroit has hosed me many times, I still want to give them a chance. Maybe it's patriotism, maybe it's nationalism.
My best hope so far (for my needs) has been the Focus. My wife and I seriously considered it when evaluating wagons. We compared it to the L; then she got the GT bug and it was all over. They're definitely not in the same class, but I was very open minded about all the possibilities. Now that I've driven a GT, the bar has been raised
For some reason (must be a MAC thing, or being left-handed) I can't save the right article from Blue Oval News site -- but if you scroll down to "Thursday, Sept. 28," you will see an article about "Ford's Flawed Business Plan," which has been in effect for several years.
Essentially it's talking about how Ford's cost-cutting measures are now coming back to haunt them. This year alone, as we all know, they've had an incredible string of bad luck (or poor planning?) with product recalls.
I agree, as with the Escape, the Focus sounds good -- at first. I'd be real leery though until that vehicle proves itself in real-world, long-term situations.
I'm chauvanistically Australian and would like to think we have the smartest engineers on earth (I already know how clever our accountants are; I mean, I am one!). Reality sometimes intrudes though and I recognize that we produce some extremely good, world leading, products. Some of them are however, a little off beat as anyone who saw the olympics opening and closing ceremonies will testify. We are immensely proud of the Victa lawnmower and the Hills Hoist clothesline.
Our engineers do a pretty good job of adapting foreign technology for Australian manufacture and the development of cars like the Holden Commodore show just how good a job they do. It is a surprisingly well sorted V6 and V8 powered car based off a German design from about twenty years ago. It is sufficiently good in hot police pursuit form that GM in the USA objected to it being exported to the States as it would impact sales of the Chevy Impala. That said, it is not world beating technology.
I wouldn't buy a Commodore, not because it is not a good car, but because their are cars better suited to my needs, developed elsewhere. The global arena means that manufacturers can produce niche products and be assured of a large enough market to make them sell at reasonable prices.
The difference in cultural and hence of engineering philosophy in each country and each firm means that there is diversity in thought processes and hence the execution of the finished product differs greatly. You may not like say the VW execution but appreciate the undcerlying philosophy. Drew Ling is clearly obsessed with the wonders of his MB M320 but is open to the merits of other designs which seek to address the same problem of transportation in different styles.
The Japanese tendency to reduce design to its basic elements and use the minimal necessary materials is a different approach to The US one of "Make it big. make it heavy!" I prefer the more elegant approach. A strange thought springs to mind. When the space program needed a pen to write in space, millions were spent on developing a pen which could cope in the absence of gravity. The Russians looked at the same problem and decided to use pencils. Which is the right approach?
Possibly more on this later. Its an interesting topic.
Except that the Focus isn't American designed, and isn't big or heavy, and isn't a new model, for that matter. My family has had generally good luck with Fords, and despite this board's penchant for Ford bashing I would still take a ford over some tired, unsafe, pushrod-powered GM anyday.
I like the bit about the pencils.
NEway, with the death of the Impreza L, the Focus once again becomes a legit contender for us. I also share Mike's hope for US manufacturers, although I don't understand why it is so tough. Still, I would take a Focus over a Cavalier anyday. Hell, I would take a 12 year old civic over a Cavalier anyday. (you can keep the Ford Tempo though. the one black spot in an otherwise pleasant relationship that has included 1 Grand Marquis, 2 Sables, and 2 Merkur Scorpios.)
Ford does a pretty good job. I've had an '87 F-150 4x4, a '91 Explorer, and a '98 Explorer. The '98 Explorer is far and away the best of the bunch. And... the new 2002 Explorer 4-door with IRS, looks like it will make my '98 look like a Model T, by comparison. So, in spite of all of Ford's recent problems, they're headed in the right direction.
I will say, however, Ford, like many American cars, is an easy target. It's hard to forget the Pinto, Edsel, and many of the other lackluster products from the '60s - '90s.
It's only in recent years that Ford has shown any real leadership in terms of innovative vehicles that I would really "want" to own. The only reason that I've ever owned any Ford, was not because I "lusted" after it. It was because, after careful examination of our (family's) needs, Fords seem to fit the bill better than anything else at the time.
The last car that I owned that I actually "lusted" after was a (then new) '86 Saab 9000 Turbo. It was far and away the worst, most unreliable vehicle I've ever owned. Well, I've actually had an Austin Marina and VW Quantum that were worse than the Saab, but not by much.
I have had a number of motorcycles (absolute, pure unadulterated LUST!!) that were great, however.
OK .. somebody explain this to me. Yahoo has a "insurance quote" feature that I checked out, just out of curiosity. The following is some data that I received for the Forester: Injury Rating: 112 Collision Rating: 92 Theft Rating: 205
These numbers are based on a scale where 100 = average 150 = 50% greater 50 = 50% lower
The collision rating I get.. but the others ?? Foresters are stolen 105% more than the "average". I find that hard to believe. Any insurance people out there? I would really like to hear some feedback. - hutch
Bob, Thanks for "Ford's Flawed Business Plan" on BON; very unfortunate business plan cause and effect. 86 Saab 9000 Turbo? Goodness, my brother feels your pain! But what a sweet car. 2.0l of turbocharged fun. The trunk of the 4 door sedan hatchback was cavernous! Never a turbo problem but when the electrical system flaked out he threw in the towel (after 10 years).
Lucien, Let me know when you and the Q go on Focus test drives; I'd like to go (I'm serious). Haha like you need more of my opinion. Even better if its earlier on the day you've got a gig. We can talk about writing.
Drew Ling is clearly obsessed with the wonders of his MB M320 but is [insert countervailing compliment here]
LOL Graham. Personally, I think Drew is possessed
.. The US one of "Make it big. make it heavy!"
Graham, you hit the nail on the head! Surely the US market share for that vehicle is shrinking. I don't have any facts (think that's going to stop this sentence?) but hasn't Detroit's US (if not global) market share dwindled since the 70's oil crisis? If someone is interested in some international statistics, see this great site AutoFacts by Price Waterhouse Coopers (your kind of folk, Graham Public Access Analysis has some great reports that I'm still digesting.
Graham, your comment about the Russian vs. American orbital writing implements extends to vast parts of their respective defense programs. Take, for example, tactical fighter aircraft, like the now dated US F-15 or F-16. Pick any equivalent Russian aircraft. Let's compare the US Air Force base and Russian base from which they operate.
The US base is perfectly clean. Before fighters roll down a runway, the enlisted airmen go on a FOD walk. FOD is Foreign Object Damage, what happens when an errant screw, rock, or bird is sucked into a turbojet or turbofan (jet) engine. Even small objects cause US engines to disintegrate. So US airmen walk down the runway and pick up any material that might cause FOD. (BTW I used to do this when I was an aircraft mechanic on C-130s).
Now step onto a Russian base. Grass sprouting up through cracks in the tarmac. Junk strewn everywhere. Non-serviceable spare parts rusting adjacent to combat-ready fighters on the flight line. Russians don't do FOD walks, there's FOD everywhere! Russian aircraft engines can take this kind of abuse. They can operate in the real world.
If you were a military commander, which plane would you want to operate on a forward airbase, where your ground troops don't have the luxury to stroll down the runway on a FOD walk due to enemy small arms fire?
A well-written piece, my friend Graham. Please continue.
This is a diversion but Mike's mention of the Soviet era fighters reminds me that they are able to operate on a wide variety of fuels as could be expected in the field including tank diesel and heating fuel. They are also designed to operate off poor or limited runways as indeed are a lot of the European fighters. In particular, the Saab Viggen (I think that was the name) was designed to operate from roadways if necessary.
If the engineering of a device is built around a narrow conception of its likely operating environment, it will be next to useless outside that environment. A less specialized product, although ultimately having less performance at the limit, may be more useful in a day to day situation. The Japanese proved the benefit of simplicity in warfare as they advanced down the Malaysian peninsula during the second world war, not by truck or tank or plane, but on bicycle. The logistics of supporting an army on bicycles is definitely different to supporting a mechanised one.
I would not happily trade my Outback for a supercar as I have two kids, go off-bitumen regularly, haul hardware home from the store each weekend and rarely get the chance to pose with a blonde in the passenger seat. For me, the use I put my car to dictates that it meets very practical considerations.
A smaller manufacturer addressing these demands on a worldwide basis can manufacture a car to suit my needs. I find it amusing that the Outback was actually developed for the US market (using Australian themes) but is now immensely popular in Australia. I just spent a week along the Great Ocean Road which includes some of the finest surf beaches in the world. When I last went that way fifteen years ago, the car of choice was a VW Kombi Van but this has now been superceded by a Subaru Outback. I also could not help noticing that surfing has segued from the outlaw sport of spaced out drop outs to pleasure leisure for balding executives. The realisation that the people are the same, just fifteen years older (and balder) came as something of a shock.
Subarus are almost ubiquitous in the heavy wet bush tracks of the Otway Ranges where rainfall up to 75 inches falls on Temperate Rain Forest. There is a raging war between Greenies and Loggers over timber resources in this area but both seem to agree that Subarus, of whatever vintage, are the car of choice. One guy admired my Outback and mentioned that his '84 is up to 330,00km on original everything and he thought he might buy it a new clutch at 500,000km. Its used as an everyday commuting vehicle and goes off-road most wekends, hauling out more serious 4WDs regularly. Its not the flashest car for this purpose but does all its jobs passably well.
Does foreign engineering assist/improve development? I suspect that comments/feedback from foreign users allowing the designers to interpret the real world demand does more than attempting to overlay a Japanese design philosophy with American engineering ideas.
Hutch- I checked the Yahoo site you referred to and discovered it uses a very primitive algorithm for its "safety rates". Initially, when I input my Forester's data, I got an identical result to yours. Since it was obviously off base, I decided to try some different combinations and discovered that by just changing the body type from SUV to wagon, the theft rating dropped from 205 to 29. Changing the state, vehicle make, model year (I even input 1900!) or safety features does nothing. Apparently, the "safety rates" are generated solely off the body type and size category fields. All the other fields don't apply unless you go the next step and ask for an insurance quote.
When the Saab was working right, it was a great car. Unfortunately, that was rarely the case. I know the 1986 9000 was v1.0, although I swear I must have gotten a beta version.
Anybody think the Forester is a bit noisy - from a wind standpoint? I'm talking about highway travel. It is noisier than our '98 Explorer. I noticed it when I was driving it Friday, and my wife mentioned it last night, after having driven to North Carolina yesterday. I don't know if she had the "sky light" open. I kind of doubt it, as it was rather cool outside yesterday.
Bob- Highway noise is a matter of perspective. My last vehicle was a Jeep so the Forester is MUCH quieter. In fact, I'm pretty sure that it's as quiet as my wife's Accord. Of course, there are many vehicles out there that are quieter than the Forester.
You're correct. It is a matter of perspective. We're used to an Explorer, which is pretty quiet for an SUV.
I am wondering, however, if the shape/design of the roof rack (and position of cross bars) is causing the additional noise. Or, if it didn't come with a roof rack would it be quieter?
It did seem a tad quieter with the sunshade closed. Again -- it's not loud, but in comparison to our Explorer, it is a bit noisier, and it seems like wind noise.
Nothing wrong with big and heavy... They are quite comfy actually... I'd take my '74 Olds 98 Hardtop over any car on the road today for a cruising mobile... 455, dual exhaust, no cats, you have a full size couch for a back seat and can't feel a bump ever...
Bob- I was rummaging around in old Edmunds posts and ran across the following quote from Jul 98:
"I'm somewhat disappointed by the Forester's looks though. It looks like the unfortunate result of a traditional SUV having a one night stand with a California Low-Rider."
I guess that since you're now the owner of a new 2001 Forester S Premium that the ensuing 2+ years changed your mind about the Forester's looks?
Thanks to those who responded to my question about Forester vs. Outback. You helped me narrow it down to Forester. Now it's on the manual vs. auto. Boy will I be glad when I've bought the car and can move on to obsessing about something else!
Kate5000: I live in Castro Valley too! I read your helpful review of Bay Area dealers, and might end up at Livermore Subaru as well. They were very laid back when we went there and I liked their attitude. Thanks for posting that info. FYI, was at Diablo Subaru in Walnut Creek last night and the salesman told me he "didn't do quotes" and HE "could teach me how to buy a car". If any other Bay Area members have dealer info, I would appreciate it. Thanks.
You went back to 1998 -- to quote me! I think you may have a little too much time on your hands to play with!
Seriously though, no, I still stand by that statement. The car has gotten (much) better looking for MY 2001, but it still comes across as a "one nite..." Subaru has certainly massaged a lot of the awkward shapes off the surface, but the basic profile has not changed. It still has a tall, boxy body, sitting on rather small (and recessed) tires, and sits somewhat close to the ground -- like a low rider.
If the tires, wheels, and wheel arches were more prominent - more like the profile of a Grand Vitara (which I think has a good visual tire/wheel-to-body ratio), and if it had just a bit more ground clearance, I would probably change my mind. I think (hope) that will change in 2003, when it's scheduled to be redesigned.
We really didn't buy it for its looks alone, but more for what can do, and for the features it comes with. The looks certainly have improved. If you go back to early 2000, and research some of my comments regarding the "then new" 2001 Forester, I think you will find words that I have said that reflect that.
Two days after purchasing a new Forester, and I'm in a Toyota showroom and sitting in a new 2001 Rav4! What's going on here??
Just being the incurable car nut that I am, and doing what comes natural to me: scoping out the competition, and looking for some clever ideas.
And...the Rav 4 has several clever ideas. One in particular is the rear seat. Not only does it have a split fold, and can be completely removed; but the base of each seat also can be moved both fore and aft, as well as having a recling backrest - just like the front seats. I also like the cargo cover which also has a split feature, and, the whole cover can be positioned at two different heights (like a PT Cruiser). Both these features are pretty nifty, to say the least! Hopefully Subaru will borrow these features for the 2003 Forester.
Most surprising is even though the Rav4 has shorter wheelbase than the Forester, it is much roomier (and more comfortable) than the Forester, for rear passengers. The cargo area is also huge because the rear floor is so low (remember the spare is on the rear door).
All in all, it's a big improvement over the last Rav4. Subaru still has it beat when it comes to power (and sky lights).
I've always been very keen on the scandinavaian habit of recycling but I hadn't realized that they recycled aircraft names onto cars. Saab appear to have used the Viggen and Grifen names. have they ever done a Draken? I think it means Dragon in Swedish. Viggen means something like Thor's Thunderbolts. I rather fancy the idea of being overtaken by a Norse God in a Saab, idly throwing down thunderbolts. It would sure be more exciting than cigarette ends or beer cans.
Any other possibilities?
Cheers
Graham
ps Hey, Lucien: Haven't seen a reference to A Clockwork Orange in many years. It is barred from exhibition in the UK at Kubrick's request as it incited excessive violence! Something about the British Psyche
I find Forester pretty quiet. It's definitely a lot quieter than my old Loyale'92 and also noticeably quieter than hubby's Accord EX'97 (hate that engine whining at high speeds!). I keep windows/moonroof closed at high speeds.
When I test-drove Escape, highway noise was very pronounced: I had to shout my comments to the sales guy ;-)
Just got back from our first "long" family trip in our 2K Legacy (now with 3500 miles)from Boston to central NJ, about 320 miles each way.
Mileage averaged 25.9 going south, 26.8 going north. Speeds were 70-85 virtually the entire way (once we cleared the stop and go on 128). Plenty of power to keep up, or even to accelerate past slowpokes only doing 70 (some nerve). It flattened the hills in western Connecticut nicely. Didn't notice the transmission (auto) doing any hunting and pecking.
The Legacy's highway manners were superb. Wind noise is nil. In fact, past trips with other cars (91 tracer wagon, 95 S10 PU)I've used the stereo to drown out noise, this trip we just enjoyed the quiet and talked (while the kids listened to their respective discmans (discmen?)).
As someone alluded above, the car is sensitive to tire pressure, and road crowns. Does not track as well as my S10, but far from objectionable.
It was a beautiful ride, except for the jerk in the Dodge Intrepid who tried to take off my right front fender as he cut me off pulling into a string of cars doing 80 on 495. He didn't look as he pulled from the center lane into the left lane, and definately would have hit me had I not slowed and pulled left. Even after I laid on the horn, and he finally saw me, he didn't pull back into his lane, but just kept coming. The only time during the trip that I wished I was in the S10, and didn't have my family in the car. Then again, anything I would have done would have put me on his level. Anger, pride, and frustration aside, no harm was done. I let him go his way, and hoped he didn't kill anyone. BTW, this was far from an emergency maneuver, but the Legacy felt perfectly secure during the entire episode. It's composure was far better than mine.
Loving the Legacy more each day, and expect a long and productive relationship.
Drew: yup, they show that roll over test live in the Benz commercials. Nice to know they care, as opposed to SUV manufacturers that are busy collecting profits with rakes!
Mike: Priceline didn't accept our bid of $1.50 anyway. Told you gas in this area was painfully expensive!
Tony: Thanks for the deflector tips. That may be next on my list (front and rear).
Patti: V6?! Drop and give us twenty push-ups!
Actually, so many people say V6 this, V6 that, that I've heard people saying "I only have a V4..."
The solution is to call ours a boxer. It even sounds better, whether it's a boxer-4 or a boxer-6. It's also easier to visualize how it works.
Vince: our friend Ken from Seattle has shared tips on the Donelly mirror install on my web site. They're right here.
Bob: you may want to ask Darlene if the OE Forester moonroof deflector is out yet. I have a stick-on kind, but the Forester's is bolted on and can be removed for cleaning.
Focus Street Edition sounds fun, but let the SVT guys have at the engine. 130hp is weak for that class.
It's a shame to hear about engine failures in the LS and S Type. The LS looked so promising. Though you'll recall the one I saw at the car show (remember, Mike?) did have some loose interior trim - a sign of things to come?
I'm more into globalization. I'm from Brazil, the wife's American with middle eastern blood, so baby Tati is a pretty interesting mix.
When it comes to purchases, though, I won't let that influence my decision (OK, unless it's a tie-breaker).
The VW Fox was made in Brazil, and was unreliable, underpowered, and base models had no overdrive. The new Mini Cooper S will get an engine produced in Brazil, and frankly that would scare me off. Quality control just isn't up to par there. Yet.
A co-worker from Sweden bought a V40. When I told him it was made in the Netherlands by a Japanese company (Mitsu), he almost freaked. The Catera is German. Some Focii are built in Mexico, with design from Europe, so it's very un-American.
If you argue that Ford is a US company, then I'd counter by saying GM owns a big share of Subaru!
Ford is a big target, and perhaps we do pick on them. They recall more vehicles per day than Subaru manufactures!
Loosh: do take Mike with you on test drives. A fresh perspective is welcome - he and I notice completely different things about a vehicle.
NYPD: nice photos. So, which one "flies" better, the Forester or the 'copter?
Bob: my bigger tires and fender flares may address the styling issues you have with the Forester.
Also, it certainly is boxy - but that was handy this weekend, when I hauled an oversized clothes washer home, still in the box. It fit inside, hatch shut, even with the front seats all the way back! With room to spare! Saved me $50 on the delivery!
The RAV4's cargo area is roomy, but the shape is tall and not very deep, so that limits its usefullness. I doubt you could fit that dryer inside.
The top link shows my install of the 18mm rear sway bar. I used Ken's instructions and supplemented them a bit with photos. This fits all Foresters and Imprezas, and at $82 (from who else but Darlene) plus some change for the bushings it's worth every penny.
The 2nd link shows some funny OBX photos. Check it out.
The last one shows the new washer we bought this weekend. The bad news is I had to install it. The good news is I saved $50 because I didn't need delivery.
-juice
PS Oops, I'm over the 10 Meg quota on homepage, guess I'll have to start another site!
Comments
I ordered the deflector today from Darlene.
I would assume we'll be putting it on next week-end.
Thank you for your hints, TonyL. I am hoping all will go well but it helps to know that help is available through this site! :-)
Later...
~~~Pat
Quick observations:
Surprise! It has a "lit" auto-down driver's window switch. I was happy to find the "lit" feature for night use.
Moonroof
Good - It's like driving in a convertible, year round.
Bad - When fully open, the wind noise is considerable -- especially in the back seat. It is much noiser than the open moonroof in my Explorer. If you didn't open the roof all the way, it was much quieter.
My son was driving, and I was in the back seat with the roof open and windows up. It created a "drumming" effect, and you could feel air pressure build up in your ears. We cracked the windows open and the air pressure went away.
It also seemed quieter if you closed the sun shade. There seems to be a fair amount of wind noise. I may try moving the roofrack cross bars to see if that improves the noise level.
Other than that, it seems like a great ride!
Bob
I’ve noted that others have commented on wind noise at highway speeds w/wo moonroof. Maybe mine is an anomaly, I hear very little. Moving the cross bars on the roof rack may help. Keep us posted on the results of your experiment.
- hutch
- hutch
Bob
The back seat is NOT uncomfortable. It's just not nearly as comfortable as the front seat. Nor is it as comfortable as the rear seat in an Outback.
I'm about 5'10", and my son was driving. He's also about 5'10", and I was sitting directly behind him. I had adequate legroom, so that was not a problem. I found the rear seat back angle to be a bit more vertical than I would have liked. It's not as bad as sitting in a church pew, but it's close. I would also have liked a fold-down center armrest.
Hopefully for 2003, Subaru will stretch the wheelbase a bit, add a rear backrest recline feature (again), put the multi-link IRS from the Outback on the Forester (in order to get smaller strut towers for better seat reclining capability), as well as add a fold-down center armrest (with dual cupholders).
Bob
..Mike
-Frank P.
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
http://www.bonforums.com/jagstype6_engine.htm
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
I hope the Foci problems are gremlins in the first-year manufacturing process. I find the Focus styling very appealing and the alloys on the (IIRC basic) model are sharp (but not my favorite -- too many spokes). And it's fairly priced.
FHI mostly designs and engineers all Subarus in Japan (consultants sometimes for body design, even US ones
My best hope so far (for my needs) has been the Focus. My wife and I seriously considered it when evaluating wagons. We compared it to the L; then she got the GT bug and it was all over. They're definitely not in the same class, but I was very open minded about all the possibilities. Now that I've driven a GT, the bar has been raised
Thoughts?
..Mike
..Mike
Essentially it's talking about how Ford's cost-cutting measures are now coming back to haunt them. This year alone, as we all know, they've had an incredible string of bad luck (or poor planning?) with product recalls.
I agree, as with the Escape, the Focus sounds good -- at first. I'd be real leery though until that vehicle proves itself in real-world, long-term situations.
Bob
http://www.blueovalnews.com/
Our engineers do a pretty good job of adapting foreign technology for Australian manufacture and the development of cars like the Holden Commodore show just how good a job they do. It is a surprisingly well sorted V6 and V8 powered car based off a German design from about twenty years ago. It is sufficiently good in hot police pursuit form that GM in the USA objected to it being exported to the States as it would impact sales of the Chevy Impala. That said, it is not world beating technology.
I wouldn't buy a Commodore, not because it is not a good car, but because their are cars better suited to my needs, developed elsewhere. The global arena means that manufacturers can produce niche products and be assured of a large enough market to make them sell at reasonable prices.
The difference in cultural and hence of engineering philosophy in each country and each firm means that there is diversity in thought processes and hence the execution of the finished product differs greatly. You may not like say the VW execution but appreciate the undcerlying philosophy. Drew Ling is clearly obsessed with the wonders of his MB M320 but is open to the merits of other designs which seek to address the same problem of transportation in different styles.
The Japanese tendency to reduce design to its basic elements and use the minimal necessary materials is a different approach to The US one of "Make it big. make it heavy!" I prefer the more elegant approach. A strange thought springs to mind. When the space program needed a pen to write in space, millions were spent on developing a pen which could cope in the absence of gravity. The Russians looked at the same problem and decided to use pencils. Which is the right approach?
Possibly more on this later. Its an interesting topic.
Cheers
Graham
I like the bit about the pencils.
NEway, with the death of the Impreza L, the Focus once again becomes a legit contender for us. I also share Mike's hope for US manufacturers, although I don't understand why it is so tough. Still, I would take a Focus over a Cavalier anyday. Hell, I would take a 12 year old civic over a Cavalier anyday. (you can keep the Ford Tempo though. the one black spot in an otherwise pleasant relationship that has included 1 Grand Marquis, 2 Sables, and 2 Merkur Scorpios.)
I will say, however, Ford, like many American cars, is an easy target. It's hard to forget the Pinto, Edsel, and many of the other lackluster products from the '60s - '90s.
It's only in recent years that Ford has shown any real leadership in terms of innovative vehicles that I would really "want" to own. The only reason that I've ever owned any Ford, was not because I "lusted" after it. It was because, after careful examination of our (family's) needs, Fords seem to fit the bill better than anything else at the time.
The last car that I owned that I actually "lusted" after was a (then new) '86 Saab 9000 Turbo. It was far and away the worst, most unreliable vehicle I've ever owned. Well, I've actually had an Austin Marina and VW Quantum that were worse than the Saab, but not by much.
I have had a number of motorcycles (absolute, pure unadulterated LUST!!) that were great, however.
Bob
Injury Rating: 112
Collision Rating: 92
Theft Rating: 205
These numbers are based on a scale where
100 = average
150 = 50% greater
50 = 50% lower
The collision rating I get.. but the others ??
Foresters are stolen 105% more than the "average". I find that hard to believe. Any insurance people out there? I would really like to hear some feedback.
- hutch
Lucien, Let me know when you and the Q go on Focus test drives; I'd like to go (I'm serious). Haha like you need more of my opinion. Even better if its earlier on the day you've got a gig. We can talk about writing.
Drew Ling is clearly obsessed with the wonders of his MB M320 but is [insert countervailing compliment here]
LOL Graham. Personally, I think Drew is possessed
.. The US one of "Make it big. make it heavy!"
Graham, you hit the nail on the head! Surely the US market share for that vehicle is shrinking. I don't have any facts (think that's going to stop this sentence?) but hasn't Detroit's US (if not global) market share dwindled since the 70's oil crisis? If someone is interested in some international statistics, see this great site AutoFacts by Price Waterhouse Coopers (your kind of folk, Graham
Graham, your comment about the Russian vs. American orbital writing implements extends to vast parts of their respective defense programs. Take, for example, tactical fighter aircraft, like the now dated US F-15 or F-16. Pick any equivalent Russian aircraft. Let's compare the US Air Force base and Russian base from which they operate.
The US base is perfectly clean. Before fighters roll down a runway, the enlisted airmen go on a FOD walk. FOD is Foreign Object Damage, what happens when an errant screw, rock, or bird is sucked into a turbojet or turbofan (jet) engine. Even small objects cause US engines to disintegrate. So US airmen walk down the runway and pick up any material that might cause FOD. (BTW I used to do this when I was an aircraft mechanic on C-130s).
Now step onto a Russian base. Grass sprouting up through cracks in the tarmac. Junk strewn everywhere. Non-serviceable spare parts rusting adjacent to combat-ready fighters on the flight line. Russians don't do FOD walks, there's FOD everywhere! Russian aircraft engines can take this kind of abuse. They can operate in the real world.
If you were a military commander, which plane would you want to operate on a forward airbase, where your ground troops don't have the luxury to stroll down the runway on a FOD walk due to enemy small arms fire?
A well-written piece, my friend Graham. Please continue.
..Mike
..Mike
If the engineering of a device is built around a narrow conception of its likely operating environment, it will be next to useless outside that environment. A less specialized product, although ultimately having less performance at the limit, may be more useful in a day to day situation. The Japanese proved the benefit of
simplicity in warfare as they advanced down the Malaysian peninsula during the second world war, not by truck or tank or plane, but on bicycle. The logistics of supporting an army on bicycles is definitely different to supporting a mechanised one.
I would not happily trade my Outback for a supercar as I have two kids, go off-bitumen regularly, haul hardware home from the store each weekend and rarely get the chance to pose with a blonde in the passenger seat. For me, the use I put my car to dictates that it meets very practical considerations.
A smaller manufacturer addressing these demands on a worldwide basis can manufacture a car to suit my needs. I find it amusing that the Outback was actually developed for the US market (using Australian themes) but is now immensely popular in Australia. I just spent a week along the Great Ocean Road which includes some of the finest surf beaches in the world. When I last went that way fifteen years ago, the car of choice was a VW Kombi Van but this has now been superceded by a Subaru Outback. I also could not help noticing that surfing has segued from the outlaw sport of spaced out drop outs to pleasure leisure for balding executives. The realisation that the people are the same, just fifteen years older (and balder) came as something of a shock.
Subarus are almost ubiquitous in the heavy wet bush tracks of the Otway Ranges where rainfall up to 75 inches falls on Temperate Rain Forest. There is a raging war between Greenies and Loggers over timber resources in this area but both seem to agree that Subarus, of whatever vintage, are the car of choice. One guy admired my Outback and mentioned that his '84 is up to 330,00km on original everything and he thought he might buy it a new clutch at 500,000km. Its used as an everyday commuting vehicle and goes off-road most wekends, hauling out more serious
4WDs regularly. Its not the flashest car for this purpose but does all its jobs passably well.
Does foreign engineering assist/improve development? I suspect that comments/feedback from foreign users allowing the designers to interpret the real world demand does more than attempting to overlay a Japanese design philosophy with American engineering ideas.
Cheers
Graham
-Frank P.
Bob
Speaking of cool... she loves the heated seats!
Bob
-Frank P.
I am wondering, however, if the shape/design of the roof rack (and position of cross bars) is causing the additional noise. Or, if it didn't come with a roof rack would it be quieter?
Bob
You can certainly experiment with the position of the cross bars (or even take them off) to see if that makes any difference.
-Frank P.
Bob
-mike
I didn't know the Saab Viggen was meant to operate on roadways!
"I'm somewhat disappointed by the Forester's looks though. It looks like the unfortunate result of a traditional SUV having a one night stand with a California Low-Rider."
I guess that since you're now the owner of a new 2001 Forester S Premium that the ensuing 2+ years changed your mind about the Forester's looks?
-Frank P.
Kate5000: I live in Castro Valley too! I read your helpful review of Bay Area dealers, and might end up at Livermore Subaru as well. They were very laid back when we went there and I liked their attitude. Thanks for posting that info. FYI, was at Diablo Subaru in Walnut Creek last night and the salesman told me he "didn't do quotes" and HE "could teach me how to buy a car". If any other Bay Area members have dealer info, I would appreciate it.
Thanks.
-Frank P.
Seriously though, no, I still stand by that statement. The car has gotten (much) better looking for MY 2001, but it still comes across as a "one nite..." Subaru has certainly massaged a lot of the awkward shapes off the surface, but the basic profile has not changed. It still has a tall, boxy body, sitting on rather small (and recessed) tires, and sits somewhat close to the ground -- like a low rider.
If the tires, wheels, and wheel arches were more prominent - more like the profile of a Grand Vitara (which I think has a good visual tire/wheel-to-body ratio), and if it had just a bit more ground clearance, I would probably change my mind. I think (hope) that will change in 2003, when it's scheduled to be redesigned.
We really didn't buy it for its looks alone, but more for what can do, and for the features it comes with. The looks certainly have improved. If you go back to early 2000, and research some of my comments regarding the "then new" 2001 Forester, I think you will find words that I have said that reflect that.
Bob
Hehe, Lucien. THIS Saab 37 Viggen. I know you knew that, you military buff, you.
..Mike
..Mike
I considered Carlsen, but Walnut Creek was closer and more convenient and I got about the same price.
Chris
Just being the incurable car nut that I am, and doing what comes natural to me: scoping out the competition, and looking for some clever ideas.
And...the Rav 4 has several clever ideas. One in particular is the rear seat. Not only does it have a split fold, and can be completely removed; but the base of each seat also can be moved both fore and aft, as well as having a recling backrest - just like the front seats. I also like the cargo cover which also has a split feature, and, the whole cover can be positioned at two different heights (like a PT Cruiser). Both these features are pretty nifty, to say the least! Hopefully Subaru will borrow these features for the 2003 Forester.
Most surprising is even though the Rav4 has shorter wheelbase than the Forester, it is much roomier (and more comfortable) than the Forester, for rear passengers. The cargo area is also huge because the rear floor is so low (remember the spare is on the rear door).
All in all, it's a big improvement over the last Rav4. Subaru still has it beat when it comes to power (and sky lights).
Bob
Any other possibilities?
Cheers
Graham
ps Hey, Lucien: Haven't seen a reference to A Clockwork Orange in many years. It is barred from exhibition in the UK at Kubrick's request as it incited excessive violence! Something about the British Psyche
When I test-drove Escape, highway noise was very pronounced: I had to shout my comments to the sales guy ;-)
Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference
MikeS-
I knew you knew I knew that!
Haven't seen a drakken yet. That would be cool. Hope GM lets them keep doing that.
do zvidanye
Lucien
Mileage averaged 25.9 going south, 26.8 going north. Speeds were 70-85 virtually the entire way (once we cleared the stop and go on 128). Plenty of power to keep up, or even to accelerate past slowpokes only doing 70 (some nerve). It flattened the hills in western Connecticut nicely. Didn't notice the transmission (auto) doing any hunting and pecking.
The Legacy's highway manners were superb. Wind noise is nil. In fact, past trips with other cars (91 tracer wagon, 95 S10 PU)I've used the stereo to drown out noise, this trip we just enjoyed the quiet and talked (while the kids listened to their respective discmans (discmen?)).
As someone alluded above, the car is sensitive to tire pressure, and road crowns. Does not track as well as my S10, but far from objectionable.
It was a beautiful ride, except for the jerk in the Dodge Intrepid who tried to take off my right front fender as he cut me off pulling into a string of cars doing 80 on 495. He didn't look as he pulled from the center lane into the left lane, and definately would have hit me had I not slowed and pulled left. Even after I laid on the horn, and he finally saw me, he didn't pull back into his lane, but just kept coming. The only time during the trip that I wished I was in the S10, and didn't have my family in the car. Then again, anything I would have done would have put me on his level. Anger, pride, and frustration aside, no harm was done. I let him go his way, and hoped he didn't kill anyone. BTW, this was far from an emergency maneuver, but the Legacy felt perfectly secure during the entire episode. It's composure was far better than mine.
Loving the Legacy more each day, and expect a long and productive relationship.
Russ H. Just missed snow on the North Shore
Mike: Priceline didn't accept our bid of $1.50 anyway. Told you gas in this area was painfully expensive!
Tony: Thanks for the deflector tips. That may be next on my list (front and rear).
Patti: V6?! Drop and give us twenty push-ups!
Actually, so many people say V6 this, V6 that, that I've heard people saying "I only have a V4..."
The solution is to call ours a boxer. It even sounds better, whether it's a boxer-4 or a boxer-6. It's also easier to visualize how it works.
Vince: our friend Ken from Seattle has shared tips on the Donelly mirror install on my web site. They're right here.
Bob: you may want to ask Darlene if the OE Forester moonroof deflector is out yet. I have a stick-on kind, but the Forester's is bolted on and can be removed for cleaning.
Focus Street Edition sounds fun, but let the SVT guys have at the engine. 130hp is weak for that class.
It's a shame to hear about engine failures in the LS and S Type. The LS looked so promising. Though you'll recall the one I saw at the car show (remember, Mike?) did have some loose interior trim - a sign of things to come?
-juice
When it comes to purchases, though, I won't let that influence my decision (OK, unless it's a tie-breaker).
The VW Fox was made in Brazil, and was unreliable, underpowered, and base models had no overdrive. The new Mini Cooper S will get an engine produced in Brazil, and frankly that would scare me off. Quality control just isn't up to par there. Yet.
A co-worker from Sweden bought a V40. When I told him it was made in the Netherlands by a Japanese company (Mitsu), he almost freaked. The Catera is German. Some Focii are built in Mexico, with design from Europe, so it's very un-American.
If you argue that Ford is a US company, then I'd counter by saying GM owns a big share of Subaru!
Ford is a big target, and perhaps we do pick on them. They recall more vehicles per day than Subaru manufactures!
Loosh: do take Mike with you on test drives. A fresh perspective is welcome - he and I notice completely different things about a vehicle.
NYPD: nice photos. So, which one "flies" better, the Forester or the 'copter?
Bob: my bigger tires and fender flares may address the styling issues you have with the Forester.
Also, it certainly is boxy - but that was handy this weekend, when I hauled an oversized clothes washer home, still in the box. It fit inside, hatch shut, even with the front seats all the way back! With room to spare! Saved me $50 on the delivery!
The RAV4's cargo area is roomy, but the shape is tall and not very deep, so that limits its usefullness. I doubt you could fit that dryer inside.
-juice
http://www.uglycars.co.uk/
Frank
-juice
The top link shows my install of the 18mm rear sway bar. I used Ken's instructions and supplemented them a bit with photos. This fits all Foresters and Imprezas, and at $82 (from who else but Darlene) plus some change for the bushings it's worth every penny.
The 2nd link shows some funny OBX photos. Check it out.
The last one shows the new washer we bought this weekend. The bad news is I had to install it. The good news is I saved $50 because I didn't need delivery.
-juice
PS Oops, I'm over the 10 Meg quota on homepage, guess I'll have to start another site!
we've already racked up over 1,100 miles... of
which I put on maybe(?) 11!
Bob