Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

qbrozen · January 2020

And therein lies the rub, right? I mean, they are saying "it is your fault. you don't know how to drive it." So how can they expect you to keep it? If they'd admit it was a flaw and is now fixed and this is how we fixed it, then maybe you'd have some restored faith. Sigh.

cdnpinhead · January 2020

The disappointed idealist quote has been one I've used for decades (mostly as an excuse for my miserable attitude), but I didn't realize it originated w/ Mr. Carlin, the font of much wisdom.

nyccarguy · January 2020

Porsche recently did the same thing to my parents. My Mom complained about a low speed grinding noise for about a year. They couldn’t replicate it. Finally, when it was in for service and the warranty was up the mechanic figured out there was a problem which turned out to be the transfer case. The Cayenne was out of warranty, but they made the “Good Will Repair.” 17,000 miles later, the new transfer case went bad. Now here’s the kicker. If they had found the problem & covered it under warranty or if my parents had paid for the transfer case to be replaced it would have been covered under their 2 year/unlimited mileage replacement parts warranty. Because it was replaced as a “Good Will Repair,” even though it failed 17,000 miles later, my parents were on the hook for $2,500. The service advisor called Porsche on our behalf and got them to pay half. I called and got them to pay a little more. It cost my parents somewhere around $800.

Sounds like VW is giving you this good will repair, but not a warranty repair so they don’t have to cover it in the even it happens again.

corvette · January 2020

28firefighter said:
I wouldn’t keep it.

That's about where I was at with my brand new lemon Pontiac G6, if I didn't qualify for the lemon law buyback. And I was in a lot worse position, financially, to replace a vehicle than I am now, but at some point, enough is enough.

This whole fiasco makes me feel somewhat better about having two cheap-ish late model (but way out of warranty) vehicles that I like, because I know that if something breaks, it will be on me, and I bought them at a much lower than new price to account for that eventuality.

mjfloyd1 · January 2020

@breld- I think you have a great attitude through all of this. I’d get it fixed under warranty and see if they offer an explanation of what failed and If they are providing any warranty on the new parts.

Then you will dump it and get something else 😁

This makes me wonder what warranty is in force for their DSG transmissions since they are automated manual transmissions.

stickguy · January 2020

those get warranted as an AT. Almost positive at that.

28firefighter · January 2020

stickguy said:
those get warranted as an AT. Almost positive at that.

They do, but you have to the follow the maintenance schedule religiously - a minor deviation and you'll be on your own.

kyfdx · January 2020

corvette said:
I was about to ask just that - doesn't the VW have hill hold? Denver is hilly, but I think you'd have to try very hard to wear out a clutch in 9,000 miles with that feature. Nice that they're covering it, but also disappointing that it's "goodwill" and not because they concluded that the dealer made an incorrect diagnosis.

Hill hold applies the brake, rather than slipping the clutch. The Tacoma has the same type of system. Training wheels for new stick shift drivers. If anything, it would reduce clutch wear, not increase it.

28firefighter · January 2020

kyfdx said:

corvette said:
I was about to ask just that - doesn't the VW have hill hold? Denver is hilly, but I think you'd have to try very hard to wear out a clutch in 9,000 miles with that feature. Nice that they're covering it, but also disappointing that it's "goodwill" and not because they concluded that the dealer made an incorrect diagnosis.
Hill hold applies the brake, rather than slipping the clutch. The Tacoma has the same type of system. Training wheels for new stick shift drivers. If anything, it would reduce clutch wear, not increase it.

You're right on how it works, but the theory that it reduces clutch wear is apparently not the case with VW Hill Hold. If you look over on VW Vortex, there are lots of accounts of Hill Hold waiting too long to release causing people to stall because they release the clutch before the car is actually moving. The solution is folks effectively riding the clutch for 2-4 seconds longer than necessary for the hill hold to release.

Again, not saying this is root cause here, but I can absolutely see this causing additional unnecessary clutch wear.

corvette · January 2020

28firefighter said:

stickguy said:
those get warranted as an AT. Almost positive at that.
They do, but you have to the follow the maintenance schedule religiously - a minor deviation and you'll be on your own.

That’s what grinds me about VW/Audi’s service schedule. Apparently you have to specifically ask for the DSG fluid change at 40k, and Audi’s prepaid maintenance plan doesn’t include it.

corvette · January 2020

kyfdx said:

corvette said:
I was about to ask just that - doesn't the VW have hill hold? Denver is hilly, but I think you'd have to try very hard to wear out a clutch in 9,000 miles with that feature. Nice that they're covering it, but also disappointing that it's "goodwill" and not because they concluded that the dealer made an incorrect diagnosis.
Hill hold applies the brake, rather than slipping the clutch. The Tacoma has the same type of system. Training wheels for new stick shift drivers. If anything, it would reduce clutch wear, not increase it.

Exactly what I meant - in theory, much harder to burn the clutch with the hill hold feature, although 28ff’s post indicates that maybe VW implemented it incorrectly (big surprise, there). Still doesn’t explain the clutch going to the floor as a result of misuse.

corvette · January 2020

Anyone else notice that the idiots who don’t like or don’t trust new safety features are exactly the ones who need them? My neighbors have a new RAV4 Hybrid. I’m sure it has automatic LED headlights, yet, I see them drive off into the night with no lights and no DRLs, I assume because they left the light switch in the “off” position instead of “DRL” or “Auto.”

GM does this right for the average driver. You get full control over the lights, until you cycle the ignition, then it goes back to automatic. There is no option to permanently turn the lights off which survives an ignition cycle.

The cars made in the last 15+ years which have permanently illuminated instrument clusters have only made this problem worse. People tend to think their lights are on because the instruments are fully lit, however, they’re lit regardless of whether the lights are on.

28firefighter · January 2020

corvette said:
Anyone else notice that the idiots who don’t like or don’t trust new safety features are exactly the ones who need them? My neighbors have a new RAV4 Hybrid. I’m sure it has automatic LED headlights, yet, I see them drive off into the night with no lights and no DRLs, I assume because they left the light switch in the “off” position instead of “DRL” or “Auto.”

Only when I open my eyes.

fintail · January 2020

It seems to almost always be a Toyolex product with no lights around here. I want to be nice and say that is just because the brand sells so much, but I bet there's more to it. For late model cars with auto lights, it is 100% feckless drivers.

sda · January 2020

corvette said:
Anyone else notice that the idiots who don’t like or don’t trust new safety features are exactly the ones who need them? My neighbors have a new RAV4 Hybrid. I’m sure it has automatic LED headlights, yet, I see them drive off into the night with no lights and no DRLs, I assume because they left the light switch in the “off” position instead of “DRL” or “Auto.”

GM does this right for the average driver. You get full control over the lights, until you cycle the ignition, then it goes back to automatic. There is no option to permanently turn the lights off which survives an ignition cycle.

The cars made in the last 15+ years which have permanently illuminated instrument clusters have only made this problem worse. People tend to think their lights are on because the instruments are fully lit, however, they’re lit regardless of whether the lights are on.

Recently I’ve noticed this more and more. Drivers navigating in the dark on interstates and other roads not aware their headlights, taillights are dark and others can barely see their vehicle until they’re right on them or too late. On my drive home tonight I saw two late model vehicles doing the same.

corvette · January 2020

There seems to be zero enforcement, too. If I were working traffic, I’d pull over someone with no headlights or who didn’t use turn signals way before I’d nab a speeder.

cdnpinhead · January 2020

"Anyone else notice that the idiots who don’t like or don’t trust new safety features are exactly the ones who need them?"

Well, I have friend in Kentucky who I don't think falls into that category. Maybe we'll hear from him.

Michaell · January 2020

FWIW, Denver - especially the part of town that @breld and I live in - is not that hilly. @breld is practically on the prairie, part of the way to Kansas.

Michaell · January 2020

@tjc78 - it's Panther diagnostic week!

https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/60047/mercury/grand-marquis/mercury-grand-marquis-2004-ecu#latest

tjc78 · January 2020

No problem!

oldfarmer50 · January 2020

qbrozen said:
And therein lies the rub, right? I mean, they are saying "it is your fault. you don't know how to drive it." So how can they expect you to keep it? If they'd admit it was a flaw and is now fixed and this is how we fixed it, then maybe you'd have some restored faith. Sigh.

Driver fault is probably their go to response these days since so few people even know how to drive standard shift any more. I have seen some so called professional drivers who are brutal on clutches. At my old job the mechanics knew which buses would need premature clutch replacement because who they were assigned to.

oldfarmer50 · January 2020

corvette said:
Anyone else notice that the idiots who don’t like or don’t trust new safety features are exactly the ones who need them? My neighbors have a new RAV4 Hybrid. I’m sure it has automatic LED headlights, yet, I see them drive off into the night with no lights and no DRLs, I assume because they left the light switch in the “off” position instead of “DRL” or “Auto.”

GM does this right for the average driver. You get full control over the lights, until you cycle the ignition, then it goes back to automatic. There is no option to permanently turn the lights off which survives an ignition cycle.

The cars made in the last 15+ years which have permanently illuminated instrument clusters have only made this problem worse. People tend to think their lights are on because the instruments are fully lit, however, they’re lit regardless of whether the lights are on.

That happened to me the other day. Couldn’t see the controls in the dark and assumed the headlights were on because I saw illumination forward. Turns out I was on daytime running lights and had nothing lit out back. Didn’t realize it until I stopped for gas.

Another reason I hate automatic nannies.

stickguy · January 2020

auto lights are the best. Though I do have to remember to check the setting after getting the car back from service because they usually turn them off, and sometimes forget to turn them back on.

tjc78 · January 2020

Most new cars have in indicator showing the headlamps are on. If you don't see the green icon like below assume your lights aren't on.

stickguy · January 2020

that Hyundai isn't getting very good MPG!

tjc78 · January 2020

Ha Ha... it wasn't mine either. No matter how much I beat on that little Elantra it simply wouldn't get under 30.

As for auto lights.. yes they are great. I can only think of one car I've owned that didn't have them and it was the 2008 Elantra. Even my crank window 99 S10 had them (or was that a 98, I can't remember now)

stickguy · January 2020

I have had them for years. But one car (the 2015 Jetta) did not. When I occasionally drove that it was real easy to forget to turn them on.

graphicguy · January 2020

@breld.....I’m livid about your VW experience....and it’s not even my car.

For no other reason than to let your feelings known, I’d find out who the president of VW North America is, and write him/her a strongly worded message about your disappointment.

It’s no like VW hasn’t had enough customer service problems based on their diesel fiasco.

No consolation, but I was relaying your story to my son last night. He empathizes but isn’t surprised. While he hasn’t had anything major go wrong with his GTI, he’s not a fan of VW’s service depts at the two VW dealers he’s had service done. I guess same sort of arrogance, claiming owner error when getting warranty work done.

Must be a VWoA thing.

stickguy · January 2020

I’d wait on the letter until after the repair is done and receipt stamped as no charge. Then unload.

corvette · January 2020

stickguy said:
I’d wait on the letter until after the repair is done and receipt stamped as no charge. Then unload.

And unload the car!

corvette · January 2020

I think the green “lights on” indicators are deceptive because, for decades, the primary indicator that your lights are on in low light conditions when it’s not completely dark (and light enough that you can’t clearly see the headlights light up the road) has been that the instruments are lit.

The Audi A4 I leased had manual lights and semi-permanently lit gauges. If it got dark and you didn’t turn the lights on, the gauges would fade to dark and you couldn’t see anything other than the needles until you turned the lights on. I liked that setup, except, why go to all that trouble and not include an auto lamp function?

breld · January 2020

Thanks @graphicguy - I appreciate the words and empathy.

And yes @stickguy - at this point, we aren't doing a thing more until the repair is done and paid for (by them). Because...

Service department called this morning to update us that the repair has in fact not been formally approved yet because they need to take apart the car and take photos and video and send it to the VW rep to then formally cover the repair cost. He said there was a cost of the labor just to get to that point is something like $1,300 and that we had to authorize that to take the next step. Now...I thought they were asking us to front that money and then get reimbursed assuming the repair was approved under warranty (or goodwill or whatever). But it was a simple matter of hearing us say we authorize it.

Here's what I think happened - the rep who was there yesterday gave the informal go ahead that it would be covered. Then they got word that my wife and I have actually requested a buyback of the vehicle. So now he's feeling like they can't fast track it and need to go through the formal process of evaluation.

Truth is we never believed they would buy back the vehicle, but we thought it was worth asking - in good conscience, I can say that we truly will not be comfortable in that vehicle going forward. But it would seem perhaps our posturing has caused them to backtrack a little.

stickguy · January 2020

As long as it gets done. And man, this is one complicated clutch. I didn’t think they were this complicated, unless it’s a mini that you need to take off the front end.

Maybe just because of the AWD system? I’ll assume a GTI is a bit simpler.

stickguy · January 2020

Also, how can they up front deny a claim, when they just admitted they have no idea what went wrong? Technically this might not even be a clutch problem. Lots of other parts involved. Maybe a casting defect led to a linkage somewhere breaking.

Clown show.

28firefighter · January 2020

The reason is because the assumption on the part of all involved is that the only reason a clutch fails is due to driver misuse. We all know and have discussed that almost conclusively is not the case here.

28firefighter · January 2020

The more I think about this, the more silly this is. Wouldn't it be better of VW to say "Look, our experience says the most common failure reason for a clutch is driver misuse. But, we also recognize given the low mileage and the manner of failure, that something else may have failed that contributed and if that is the case we will take it up with VWoA. We need you to authorize us to take apart the car and look." Much better customer service and not outright calling the customer a crummy driver...

breld · January 2020

Yes, that would be a very appropriate response. I get the sense everyone on their end speaks out of fear of the generally litigious environment.

Wife and I were talking about it - if they're willing to cover the repair, there's nothing else to be afraid of. While we would like them to simply take the car back, we also recognize that the situation is this - there was a failure on the car, no one was injured and they cover the cost of the repair. Simple as that.

28firefighter · January 2020

breld said:
Yes, that would be a very appropriate response. I get the sense everyone on their end speaks out of fear of the generally litigious environment.

Wife and I were talking about it - if they're willing to cover the repair, there's nothing else to be afraid of. While we would like them to simply take the car back, we also recognize that the situation is this - there was a failure on the car, no one was injured and they cover the cost of the repair. Simple as that.

To me, the bigger question would be whether it was a random parts failure or rather a design flaw in the clutch system that caused the premature failure. While I haven't heard anything that would lead me to think it is the latter, the take rate on the manuals is much lower so it is hard to know, and that would be reason enough to flip it before it happens again.

graphicguy · January 2020

This hits at the heart of dealerships, manufacturers and their relationship with their customer base. The customer always seems to be the culprit in these types of situations. The dealership didn’t even do any sort of investigation, and automatically assumed the @breld family had abused the car.

I’m of the mind that those who abuse their cars are far in the minority compared to honest folk who have a failure when a car leaves you stranded. Clearly, VW doesn’t see it that way, which is too bad. i thought they built pretty nice, well engineered vehicles. More and more evidence makes me wary of that belief.

stickguy · January 2020

Maybe good that my wife nixed any VW from our shopping list.

jmonroe · January 2020

I think I heard that VW will not provide a loaner until it's determined that the failure is covered by warranty. OK, but they more than likey are back peddling and pretty much have agreed that they are going to make the repair. Maybe they will use the technically that the repair is going to be made as a "good will" repair not warranty. Therefore, no loaner car by VW but there is no law that says the dealer can't provide a loaner so that they can show "good will" towards their customer. It's worth asking since we know that, "if you don't ask...you don't get".

jmonroe

venture · January 2020

stickguy said:
Maybe good that my wife nixed any VW from our shopping list.

I was thinking my next car would possibly be a GTI after my problem with my Subaru dealer. No more.

oldfarmer50 · January 2020

breld said:
Thanks @graphicguy - I appreciate the words and empathy.

And yes @stickguy - at this point, we aren't doing a thing more until the repair is done and paid for (by them). Because...

Service department called this morning to update us that the repair has in fact not been formally approved yet because they need to take apart the car and take photos and video and send it to the VW rep to then formally cover the repair cost. He said there was a cost of the labor just to get to that point is something like $1,300 and that we had to authorize that to take the next step. Now...I thought they were asking us to front that money and then get reimbursed assuming the repair was approved under warranty (or goodwill or whatever). But it was a simple matter of hearing us say we authorize it.

Here's what I think happened - the rep who was there yesterday gave the informal go ahead that it would be covered. Then they got word that my wife and I have actually requested a buyback of the vehicle. So now he's feeling like they can't fast track it and need to go through the formal process of evaluation.

Truth is we never believed they would buy back the vehicle, but we thought it was worth asking - in good conscience, I can say that we truly will not be comfortable in that vehicle going forward. But it would seem perhaps our posturing has caused them to backtrack a little.

So they’re punishing you for daring to not want their defective car?

xwesx · January 2020

fintail said:
It seems to almost always be a Toyolex product with no lights around here. I want to be nice and say that is just because the brand sells so much, but I bet there's more to it. For late model cars with auto lights, it is 100% feckless drivers.

It is a really sad case, too, when it is Japanese brands going around without lights, since you can set any of them to "on" and just leave them there, always, and never have to think about it. You're right, though; it does tend to be the Toyota brand that I see going around without lights.

breld · January 2020

oldfarmer50 said:

breld said:
Thanks @graphicguy - I appreciate the words and empathy.

And yes @stickguy - at this point, we aren't doing a thing more until the repair is done and paid for (by them). Because...

Service department called this morning to update us that the repair has in fact not been formally approved yet because they need to take apart the car and take photos and video and send it to the VW rep to then formally cover the repair cost. He said there was a cost of the labor just to get to that point is something like $1,300 and that we had to authorize that to take the next step. Now...I thought they were asking us to front that money and then get reimbursed assuming the repair was approved under warranty (or goodwill or whatever). But it was a simple matter of hearing us say we authorize it.

Here's what I think happened - the rep who was there yesterday gave the informal go ahead that it would be covered. Then they got word that my wife and I have actually requested a buyback of the vehicle. So now he's feeling like they can't fast track it and need to go through the formal process of evaluation.

Truth is we never believed they would buy back the vehicle, but we thought it was worth asking - in good conscience, I can say that we truly will not be comfortable in that vehicle going forward. But it would seem perhaps our posturing has caused them to backtrack a little.
So they’re punishing you for daring to not want their defective car?

That's what it feels like.

omarman · January 2020

Today's update sounds like they want to take another bite of the apple at the owner's peril. By rights you could tell them to go pound sand in the rat holes! They already made a deal with the owner. So maybe just don't respond to any "revised" updates.

"Yesterday I accepted the factory offer to repair my car at no expense to me. Let me know when it's ready for delivery. Thank you."

nyccarguy · January 2020

elias · January 2020

yow, just catching up and seeing about the VW clutch failure near the tunnel, wow that stinks. sounds like a low-$ failure of a part that is one of the more failure-prone on a stickshift car: the clutch "secondary" (slave) cylinder, the one under the clutch pedal. They sure do fail randomly, on any stickshift car, but would be covered up until 12 months & 12k miles on a new car. A dealer mechanic showed me how my Z28 with failed slave cylinder could be "driven" in very short bursts very short distances using starter motor after forcing shifter into #1 (or reverse) gear, giving time for starter motor to cool between each burst.

btw, Sometimes the secondary clutch cylinders will start making weird loud clicking noises before they fail (that one camaro clutch did so).

ps no way i would seriously go near coworker's Cayenne, whether the transfer case repair was $200 or $2000. I am fascinated by the stickshift aspect - we will probably see the vehicle in Hemmings Motor News or a TV car auction some day.

elias · January 2020

BTW if that alltrack with failed clutch had a diesel engine to go with the stickshift then I would probably buy it myself (PUNCH!) . No more VWs for me, but I've owned 5 and they were fine family vehicles too - no strandings. The one gasser was a 1965 beetle. I traded my final VW (2006 jetta TDI) just as the camshaft started dissolving right on schedule around 130k miles causing alarming misses on the highway. Also I've owned 25 vehicles and have seen many more clutch issues due to broken parts and only rarely/recently have I had to replace a clutch, once on a Lancer bought used for a son, and that same year on an 05 GTO with 80k ($3800 for new clutch due to dissolved pilot/needle bearings, including transmission input shaft for $700).

elias · January 2020

nyccarguy said:

Nice - that is awesome how the truck grips sideways onto the wall. Blizzaks? but seriously, looking good, dude, and what is in the bed of the truck, live chickens? Sorry if i missed a posting or two in there, NYC chicken-raising guy.

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