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Comments
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Regarding teachers in general, I think teaching is one of the most valuable professions. Of course, they are not compensated as such, but that does not devalue the work they do. I agree that public teachers are in an awful bind due to the focus on testing and benchmarks that is rammed down the collective throat of the school system. It leaves very little leeway for creativity in curriculum that allows a child's mind to blossom and flourish.
I find it sad how politicians seem to think that our society can fall into decay and somehow, miraculously, that is not going to affect performance or attitudes in the school system. It must be the teachers not doing their jobs, so time for more standards and more testing! :sick:
Our town now has a cutoff of July 31 for a child to turn 5 before starting kindergarten. It used to be December 31 but they have pushed it back gradually over the past few years.
I know of plenty of "young" kindergarteners who have repeated it because even though they were academically ready for it, they weren't emotionally ready.
Sorry Rob - I just realized this sounds stalker-ish. No need to reply.
I'm not that concerned about it. If they'll take her, I think she will do very well at public school. If not, they won't know what they've missed. Either way, she will get an excellent education and enrich many lives.
My birthday is in August and I went through public school one of the youngest in my grade, beginning in kindergarten. I was placed in the gifted program-- which had only just started in our district-- in 1st grade and was largely unchallenged if not bored with traditional classes.
However, I was undersized and immature, and I am relieved to think of my own son being one of the largest in his preschool at age 4 as well as being a fairly advanced learner. He should be ready for kindergarten at age 5.5 but even if he's ahead of their educational agenda *this* summer at age 4, I wouldn't consider starting him a year early or skipping kindergarten.
There's really no rush. Graduating at 16 through 19 is all fine. And of course, you aren't a proper young man or woman until well into your 20s. Some, perhaps 30s.
I too went through school as one of the youngest and smallest, and it was that much harder to be better than the other kids who were older and bigger.
Oh, Colin, I think some people don't mature until even later!
tom
A major shortcoming of the system. Charter/Magnet programs that are publicly funded should be on a competitive admissions basis - fairly open to all.
Cutoff Dates: My youngest was born 13 days after the cutoff, and my wife wanted to challenge it. She was a strong reader with good math skills, but small, shy and just not emotionally ready. I used my sister as an example of why we should not! Now in 2nd grade she's doing great, and I'm glad we waited.
My sister (mid 1960's) was in the same position, but my parents pushed it. She was competitive academically, but never caught up socially until she reached college.
Then went to a private all guys parochial high school.
Wife pretty much followed the same plan (obviously different high school-she went to a private christian high school).
Brenda, I think there's just too much other stuff going on in our schools that has nothing to do with educating our kids. Since I have a sister who is a teacher and a good friend who is a principal, I get to hear a lot of things that, quite honestly, do not give me a whole lot of confidence in the "public school" system in general.
Don't get me wrong, there are some very very good public schools, but there just aren't enough of them. And a lot of this is because of the parents. If the parents don't care about education, then the kids won't either. Which is too bad, because they are the very ones who probably need it the most.
But don't despair! We need good teachers! I just feel sorry for you and all of the politics you have to deal with instead of just teaching our children, which is supposed to be your job, right? Supposed to be, anyway. But I still believe it is one of the best and most noble of professions!
tom
for now .. I also want to point out that I taught gifted education in Texas for 10 years and at that point it was required in Texas (and many other states as well) for there to be something in place to "accelerate" students. These policies/procedures generally don't get much press or publicity, but you can ASK if you really believe your daughter should be allowed to start school earlier. HOWEVER ... and it is a BIG however.... some students really ARE ready to start at an earlier age, and will be FINE who need the challenge and rigor they will get in being with the older students. Be aware, though, that the 'older' ones will generally be more "mature" and able to handle things. I have 2 daughters with summer bdays. One I wish I'd waited another year to start her in school because she was VERY ready academically but struggled socially all through school as a 'younger' child. One probably could have started Kindergarten at FOUR and been fine. The last one has an October bday and ended up being the most well-adjusted socially and academically. All 3 participated in some of the gifted offerings at some point. I think the one who struggled socially would have taken advantage of more of the "gifted" opportunities had she been an "older" child for her grade.
All that being said ... even if you wait to start her in Kindergarten most (I think) schools have some policies/procedures in place for accelerating through a grade level. Again, usually not publicized. Research shows the best way to do this is to transition over a school year. We "accidentally" did it this way ONCE about 17-18 years ago. The student began 2nd grade, was tested over grade level content to show she had mastered the 2nd grade curriculum (or at least most of it), and then gradually began attending parts of the day with a 3rd grade classroom (reading, language, math) while remaining with her age peers for PE, music, lunch, etc. By the end of the school year she was participating much of the day with the 3rd graders and moved to 4th grade the following year. I have been in communication with this student on Facebook for about a year. (She is now an adult, of course.) It was gratifying (and a great relief) to find out she had always considered it the best thing done for her during her K-12 school years.
so - know there are options ... and taking one doesn't necessarily preclude the others .. you just might have to educate yourself by reading your state's education law to see what it requires of the schools in these instances. There are also advocacy groups for gifted/talented/high ability students - you can find info online (NAGT is one, and you should be able to find a state/local group to tap into).
Yeah, doesn't take long to have a long post!
Stay in the "pack" ... pull up the lower quartile .. but who cares about the upper quartile?
Thanks for that tip, just bought Outliers kindle format!
tom
I know the value of timing, for sure, and of course there has to be some set standard for the public school system. Unfortunately, when it comes to any given individual, there is much that affects one's life and many factors to consider. For example, a person can be academically advanced and socially remiss. Or, academically advanced but also show great aptitude for sports. Yes, size/age is an advantage in sports, so then what is best? I think you have to balance it when making these choices for children while they're young, because it will likely have a life-long impact on them.
My daughter, who was born 10/5/2007, she is quite advanced socially, including her language (comprehension and dialogue), and likes to spend time with children who are in the 5-6 range rather than those who are "her age" because she relates to them better. Yes, she is still much smaller than those children, but I am also not suggesting to place her into first grade right now! In some ways, she is very lucky to have her older brother, pill that he is, because he's challenging (both to her patience and to her intellect).
I don't like the idea of shifting grades (at least not after the first year or two of school) because of the social problems that can create, but I would support her in a decision such as that if it came up. I had a classmate who came up from a lower grade and she did fine but was challenged, socially, quite a bit. I was a bit inspired by her, actually, and thought about doing the same myself, but felt socially intimidated by such a move, given that I was already the smallest in my class and the next grade up was populated by a bunch of obnoxious yahoos. Perhaps part of that, though, was simply a result of being in a small school (grades tended to have 8-12 students each).
In the end, I will just have to wait until the time is closer for us to decide what is best at that time. If my son is still doing home-school, my wife might just prefer to keep our daughter home, too. There are many good opportunities within the home-school community here, so I imagine I will just have to wait until I am more familiar/comfortable with it before I plan her future too far in advance!
The next year she could have gone to first grade after some testing but she'd would've have been 5 in first grade. She'd be the youngest but probably would've been fine. Instead we had her do K at the public school. She is going to middle school this fall at age 11.
Had she started 1st grade at age 5 she would've been starting 6th grade (middle school in our town) at age 10 and riding the bus with kids up to 14 YO - that is when the age difference would be really noticeable. A 10 YO has nothing in common with a 14 YO. If you were to take it further, she would start college at age 17 which IMHO isn't the best situation.
As discussed in the past, my older daughter also falls on the Aspergers spectrum (PDDNOS, actually). Pervasive developmental disorder, not otherwise specified. Back then I dubbed it "pretty damn dumbfounding, no obvious solution".
We had a tough time getting the elementary school to accept the diagnosis and work with us, basically because she was smart and high functioning. There were obviously others more in need of the limited aid available, and she fell between the cracks. By 4 months into Middle School she was in serious trouble (listening to others and the voices in her head to do antisocial things...), and quickly came to the attention of the admin. Question #1 from them was were was her 'development plan'? Duh, she doesn't have one because your brethren across the street didn't think one was necessary!!
From that day on I was on first name basis with the Principal and Asst Principal, Guidance, Attendance, etc., and got pretty much weekly reports on her progress. Within a year she straightened out and began to pull ahead and find her place.
Now a freshman in HS (9th grade) she is heavily entrenched in Marching Band, Drama & a variety of other school & civic activities, in 10th grade math, AP/Honors History & English.
Net - it takes a partnership of enlightened teachers & administration, and a strong parental presence to make it work. Not to say that we might not fall back again, but we know when to step in & get involved.
Very interesting. Had two aunts who taught (but in VA, not MS, for the money). My sister-in-law just retired after 30 years in public and private schools, and her daughter teaches. And my sister taught a year but washed out.
I was in college shortly before my 18th birthday and always thought my sister-in-law was crazy for holding her own kids back a year before entering them in school. Now I see that she may have been using me as an example of why not to rush it. :shades:
Overworked, underpaid and under-appreciated pretty much describes the job for me.
OK, so this brings me to a topic that will probably evoke a lot of emotion. Home schooling....
For some it is probably a great solution. For us, it would probably be a disaster. Our kid's teachers, friend's parents, etc. tell us how well behaved (with exception of above mentioned incidents...) and how hard they work. Yet we seem to have plenty of problems at home. Everyone tells us this is normal - they are comfortable with us, and feel it is OK to challenge everything. But they respect and work well with their teachers and other outsiders. Home lessons on any subject go OK for a while, then too often law and order breaks down. I just cannot imagine doing a decent job of full home schooling. You'd have to be an exceptional person to make it work. We know our limitations!! (please, no flaming!)
I also think that part of the reason for attending school is the social and interpersonal interaction aspect. For my oldest with her 'spectrum disorder', this was critical. Her trouble at school - and the resulting suspension & rehabilitation - was maybe the best thing that could ever have happened to her.
I am curious, Steve; what was your daughter's age when this intervention took place?
Already, my son often finds himself being singled out as a troublemaker for, I think, minor things that are "typical child behavior." While he does push the envelope regularly, I can see that the general tolerance level toward him by school staff is diminishing.
Besides not having had a raise in 2 years and working on the old contract, the School Board of Broward County not negotiating in good faith these 2 years, the onslaught of last year's FL legislature that quickly passed a bill that would've based teacher salaries strictly on the 2 days of FCATs (Florida's standardized tests), thankfully vetoed by Gov Crist, we now have Gov Scott, the evil center of the Columbia Healthcare debacle. He is big buddies with Jeb Bush and the Charter School/Testing Company group of politicians and owners, as well as a friend of big business. One of his first acts was to withdraw from Federal review 2 amendments passed overwhelmingly by Florida voters that prevent Gerrymandering of districts. He released his budget today. It cuts $3.3 billion from the education budget! In other words, Florida teachers are screwed.
Florida's economy has cratered. They were far harder hit in all areas than Kansas, particularly in home values. So while I certainly sympathize with you, I also presume that there have been tremendous cuts across the entire state budget.
Amazingly, federal spending has dramatically increased while many states are technically insolvent. I am sure there will be many unhappy people when federal budget cuts are finally implemented.
-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
Good luck, Serge. I think more cuts and more taxes are on the way. I don't agree with lowering taxes now-- wrong tool for the job. Incenting growth is patently failing.
Anyway. How about those SUBARUS?
Will try in the next few days to get some 'replies' in to some of the posts .. it's been interesting reading your input ... I appreciate it ..
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Though they promised to send us a bandana for Tank. :shades:
But, I politely deleted the email they sent me and did not request the bandana.
Sorry Rob - I just realized this sounds stalker-ish. No need to reply.
robr2 - Not at all - Greater Lowell. Great school. Can't say enough about all they do there.
Kindle - now, isn't that one of the greatest things? I'm running Beta version on my Blackberry Storm and absolutely love it!
Steve - yeah it was pretty scary up on the roof. All it takes is one wrong move. I hate ladders, roofs and heights in general - but given the situation, it needed to be done, and like it or not, dad had already been up there. On a sadder note, I found out on Monday morning that the husband of one of the nurses I work with fell off their roof with some serious injuries. Sometimes careful is just not enough ...
Princess Auto has their 21' extendable roof rakes on sale for $15 if you must. I'll pick one up and mail it to whoever needs one.
-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
Thanks for the info - you're up at the end of Rt 3 then.
My town is part of the Shawsheen Regional Vocational School and one member town threatened to pull out when they felt the Voc was recruiting their better students. They felt that the voc shouldn't be taking kids that were college bound.
What a croc. That town of course is the one that is in danger of losing accreditation.
That niche used to belong to Volvo and Saab.
I am a tech savvy Mac owning teacher with a son named Mike and an ex-dog (sort of like an ex-parrot pining for the fjord). Now how about dem Subarus!
Just put Whiteline 22mm adjustable sways and alloy end links on the wagon, but I also had to just order a new A/C compressor and lower pulley. The bearings went, the compressor must have locked, and the pulley must have melted from the friction and heat.
The rear sway bar
Off to PBIR tomorrow; they are going to have an HSR event with lots of old GTP cars, then Buddy Guy tomorrow at the Garlic Festival in Delray Beach. Should be a fun day.
http://www.hudsonvalleygarlic.com/
Have some garlic ice cream for me!
I will admit that there ARE schools here and there that are NOT doing so well; however, I think the vast majority are doing all they can for their students. Many teachers never work in more than a few schools over the course of their careers. I worked in the same school building for the 1st 13 years, then spent 1 year in another building in the same school system. Since then, I have worked in 3 other systems and within 8 different buildings in 2 different states. One state has a union; the other has no union by state law. I have worked in poorer schools and in affluent schools, while teaching general education 1st and 4th grades (5 years), "high ability" students K-6 (10 years), and students identified for special education (11 years). While providing a wider view than the average teacher has (in my opinion), it's still a fairly narrow perspective from which to judge the schools across our country.
To comment on your particular post, I think many parents are not moving their children to private/church schools because of the people running the schools in their areas, but more often to avoid the clientele of the public schools. If you look at demographics, the areas with the "worst" schools have a clientele with more "social" issues than average. In some cases, there are teachers who choose to work in those buildings because they feel more needed by those students. I have worked in school buildings with "needier" kids, and also in buildings with "affluent" kids. I have felt that I made more difference with the needier ones! It's nice to feel as if you made a positive impact on a child's life that might not have happened otherwise. If teachers are rated based on the test scores of the students, who will choose to work with the ones who have more difficulty with taking the tests in the first place?
I have no problem with your family's private/church school years. I think many kids DO benefit from this sort of education, and the public school system would be completely overwhelmed if all of those students currently attending those schools were to be enrolled in public schools. I have also worked with families whose children attend non-public schools, but when there is a child in need of special education services, THAT child attends public school in order to have the education that he/she requires. The public schools have ALL students regardless of need (economic, emotional, physical, cognitive, etc.) and current thinking (by lawmakers and, seemingly, much of the general public) is that ALL of these students can be educated successfully at the same rate and to the same level.
Are there teachers who are more successful than others? Certainly there are, but the difficulty is how to MEASURE that difference. (I'll probably comment more on this later!)
So, to close this lengthy post (for those of you still reading) - I do agree with the statement in the post that most kids get out of it what they choose to. It doesn't mean we can allow kids to just "opt out", but some are more ready to accept what is offered (at all ages). Anyone who knows much about teachers, knows that most of us work much longer days than what is "required", and also spend time attending classes, workshops, etc. on our own time to increase our knowledge and skills. I know I have more university time than most of my colleagues, but they are a highly educated group overall. It's not a 6 hour day. We don't really get "lengthy vacations". We are paid for the number of days in our contracts (usually 183 working days) with the salary spread out over the 12 month period. Most jobs allow you to take vacation when you prefer. Ours is always dictated by the school year. I can't take a vacation to see my family in Texas in February (which would be so much more sane than going to the Gulf Coast in the height of summer). Most of the teachers I know would be fine with working more days at the same rate of pay. There are always many more applicants for summer school positions than there are openings for them.
OK, long enough for the "opening" reply. I know it went away from the original message, and I'll try not to repeat myself too much as I go through the others to reply. Thanks for the "got your back" support. It does mean a lot - even if it doesn't change what our legislator, governor, and state superintendent of education is doing to gut public education at the moment.
On, the other hand, Karen and I have always taken on the part of being 'involved parents', always making sure that Mike's homework and projects were done, he was always prepared, and holding him to task throughout the school year, along with active communication with the teachers.
Teaching is certainly not an easy career choice, balancing the demands of administration, a school board, budget cuts and yes, the varying needs of the students.
From the comments posted, I believe that everyone here also seems to be actively engaged in their child's education - the greatest support one can give to the teacher!
I started out in public elementary school (grades 1-6). My parents sent me to a private non-sectarian school for middle school (7 & 8) to avoid the 'drug problem', real or imagined, at the middle school I would have attended. Boy, little did THEY know! :surprise: I ended up staying & graduating from high school there, only because they gave me the choice, and by then I was pretty comfortable there.
We started our kids out in Catholic school based mostly on the fact that Grace went to one in her childhood. We were members of the parish & liked the small classes & combination of education and faith formation. Ultimately Grace ended up working at the school part-time, eventually becoming the full-time development director there for several years. Kinda nice having mom as close as the school office! There's a big difference between the two schools, but I firmly belive that the foundation we laid for our kids early on has paid dividends now.
Our two youngest, in essence, outgrew the school by their wanting to pursue electives (music, both instrument and voice) that weren't offered. They're both doing fine. As a parent, I miss having the closer contact I had with their teachers when they were younger. Their teachers now all have about 150 kids to teach each day (rather than 20-40), so keeping in touch is more of a challenge for both parent and teacher.
We just dropped our capital facilities levy (only garnered 46% support). Next door in Idaho, the State Superintendent has proposed increasing class sizes, 'replacing teachers with computers', removing due process protections for teachers, and cutting kindergarten funding by 2/3.
The assault continues from many different directions, but never, ever will I ever believe that teachers are underpaid or underworked. Your students are lucky to have you.
It is a very pertinent topic, as our kids wrote their Provincial (State) FSA (Foundation Skills Assessment) exams this week. Much discussion has swirled around these tests. I personally support them, but am strongly opposed to what some would like to do with the results. The whole idea of making them a basis for professional assessment is ridiculous. To paraphrase one of my favourite expressions, any government that would use them to structure compensation or recognition is either unfathomably incompetent or pandering to populism at its worst.
We have all 4 kids in public school. One of the boys is on an IEP and uses a computer for almost all his work. We find ourselves doing a great deal of home supervision of their work and its quality. Without that, they would fall at least a grade level in their marks for certain. No teacher can be expected to guarantee the best possible effort from their students, it is simply impossible, so I don't begrudge that. Both Dra and I were very competitive, driven kids both academically and athletically who almost always did our best possible, with anything short of excellence a disappointment. Our kids...not so much. We have unfortunately resorted to blackmail, whereby electronic privileges (much more restricted than most of their peers in the first place) are off the table until their best possible work has been done. For example, last year in Science they had 6 tests at school. In preparation for each one, Dra would create mock quizzes and a mock test in each section based on their curriculum notes. When a test was coming, they were given time to study on their own and told to report when they thought they were done. Anything less than 80% on the initial quiz meant a 'sentence' of another 30-60 minutes of dedicated study time. There was no free time on the night before their mid-terms until they scored 90% on a different mock test. Sounds a little type A, I know, but by Christmas they knew to prepare properly and were close to perfect the first time they presented for the quiz. They always commented that Mum's tests were waaaay harder than the ones at school, and they had 3 of the top 4 final Science marks in the class. There is no way that a teacher can bring that degree of leverage or time per student to a classroom. If our kids went to the same school with the same teacher but lived in a different home (heck for that matter if I was a single parent) they would not have come within a mile of that level of achievement, but on the FSAs they would have scored much lower.
As to the standardized testing, I do support it, because it does provide me as a parent with a measure of whether or not my children are at the level they should be. If they use the tests as a way to identify school populations that need more support then they have the capacity to be a useful instrument. If they are used to judge teachers or schools that would be misguided. There is a "think tank" that always ranks all the schools in the province, but does it based principally on the results of these tests. Not surprisingly, top private schools do very well, but it has also been repeatedly pointed out that many of these schools have "prep sessions" specifically targeting the parameters that will be examined on these tests. The other irony here is that parents have the right to excuse their children from taking these tests. In the cases we know of, the families who removed their children are very involved in their children's education, very thoughtful of the issues and their children are top students. In the end, their decision reduced the average score for our class and as a result made it a less reliable measure of the level of achievement the students were obtaining.
My aunt's and uncles are both NYC Teachers!
I'm a product of the NYC Board of Ed too!
Of course I was lucky, I ended up going to Stuyvesant HS, which is one of the best public HSs in the country.
-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor
I came from a family of teachers and university professors. ALL except for me and Dad. And I do mean ALL ALL ALL. And I mean right on down the line of extended aunts and uncles also, and many of their children. And nieces and nephews married the same. I have one niece who received her PhD around age 27 or so.
I don't always agree with their political views as they tend to sway Liberally even if were Conservative at one time. But I have also spent a lot of time around education-shorted individuals, and I'll take educated over ignorance any day.
One discouraging thing though here, is at times how badly our teacher's hands are tied. For example, they have to toe the perfect degree of judgement when determining if a child is getting abused. They also shouldn't be relegated to baby-sitting duty, then be chastised by some brain-dead, irresponsible, self-righteous, parent with a sense of entitlement in society, of a child sent to school with an autumn jacket and running shoes when it is 0 out, when all you are doing is insisting that they must do at least 'some' homework, and the bullying won't be tolerated any longer.
Sure would be great if there wasn't quite the degree of general public ignorance regarding our education system though..
But to finish here on a more positive note, we have some incredibly committed teachers here. And some amazing students. Thank goodness the majority rules easily on both counts.