I'm surprised they dropped the 2.2l. I thought that it would've remained in the TS. I believe the EPA fuel ratings on my OBS are 22/30 (or something like that). Dennis
I think the OBS I drove was 21/27 for the 5 speed. The old ones were a bit better, I think, and Subaru was exactly at the limit before, so they may pay fines now.
However, CAFE works in strange ways. You can accumulate credit from past years, and carry debts into future years. Who knows.
I think it's Corporate Average Fuel Economy... or something to that effect. It states the minimum average fuel economy that must be attained without paying penalties.
Medium-duty trucks and SUVs are currently excluded under "work" pretenses, even though vast numbers of them are sold each year for personal use.
Cars have to average 27.5 mpg, but (light) trucks only 20.7 mpg.
All Subies are cars, so they don't catch the break that other manufacturers do. They were exactly at 27.5 last year, and given the 2.2l was dropped and the H6 and turbos showed up, I'm not sure how they'll meet the standard.
Subaru needs a 5AT first I assume. With that said, I think Subaru from a marketing standpoint could work well with a hybrid in their lineup. WHole better for the environment while still enjoying the outdoors kinda thing. Not talking about a one-off model, more like what Ford and DC SUVs are doing by offering the smallest motor that usually comes with the truck (3.9L V6 in Durango for example) combined with an electric motor for AWD when needed. Will supposedly up fuel economy by 3-5 mpg.
That "through the road" 4WD sounds kind of interesting, but Subaru has a very specific AWD system and touts it in every brochure, ad, you name it. How could they remain consistent?
I agree - 5 speed auto trans first. That could even help highway mileage - a lot.
The Passat comes with a 5-speed automatic, with tip-tronic. So far that's it in the mid-$20K range. However, you can bet your first born that more 5-speed automatics are on the way for other so-called mainstream cars. A 5-speed automatic would offer better performance, and since Subaru is moving towards a "performance" image for the brand, they should be leading the charge.
Mercedes and BMW will shortly launch 6-speed automatics on some of their models within a couple of years. That's already been announced.
I have to second Dennis on #1419. Once I convinced myself that I didn't need a pickup truck, I cross-shopped Audi and Volvo (very briefly). It wasn't long before my wallet and my common sense (recalling expensive VW repairs!) told me I should consider something in the Subaru line. I imagine it won't be long before entry-level BMW 3-series shoppers look at Subaru as well.
With the economy cooling off (I didn't say "recession") potential buyers of 3-series Bimmers, higher end Audi A4's, etc will maybe second guess the wisdom of their purchases. Having already been bitten by the new car bug they will say something like "maybe I should consider a Subaru..it's more financially prudent, etc") Long story short, they end up w/a Subaru, having tightened in the spending reins and are all proud of their financial prowness. They soon realize that this is the car they should have ended up with in the first place regardless of their financial portfolio. The inherent goodness of the Subaru comes shining through. SOA gains new customers and a revised customer base. We, the current owners, welcome the newbies to the fold, smiling with that all-knowing smile (and trying not to be too smug...ok maybe that's me). Just my imagination running free....:-)
The current Acura TL body came out in '99. That first year, it had a 4 speed auto with sport shift. The following year, they made it a 5 speed auto with sport shift. Doing that, they managed to get a bit more HP and 1-2 MPG highway out of it.
That's the only example I have. I think it would provide similar results for Subaru too! Imagine what adding 1 MPG or so to their CAFE numbers - oh, wait, that's a different thread.
To make sure on our decision for an OB, I showed (reluctantly) the Passat to my wife. She didn't like it. Finally, I showed her the A4 being very scared she would like it. Her response - I want the OB in Winestone.:)) I know I married her for a reason After nag.....discussing it with her we have decided now is the time to buy. The fun begins!
Brian, in its current state of tune on paper the EZ30 H6 has a very flat torque curve. I don't own one but test drove one fairly extensively (failed attempt to convince family member to purchase) and the torque curve doesn't seem all that broad to me. It seems like it has considerably more high RPM punch, or considerably less low RPM if you're a pessimist. Anyway, I too think it would benefit from a 5spd -- automatic or manual. A six speed manual would be really nice in an H6 Legacy GT.
Financing, yes. They've offered it before, so I don't see why not.
Rebates? Never before, so that's a tough call. They also cut production in Gunma to build more WRXs, so supply will be short (and demand has always been high).
Roll the dice. My guess is probably not, and even if they do it would be small ($500).
simply mean better/closer gear splits. Since the H-6 performs considerably better at higher rpm, it means that more (and closer) gear splits will keep the engine on boil easier. There will be less drop off in revs between shifts.
I imagine it won't be long before entry-level BMW 3-series shoppers look at Subaru as well.
*wave* That's me. The Bimmer was a sweet drive, but it was a "stripper" compared to the Subie; adding enough good stuff pushed the price over $30k in a flash. Plus it had a tight back seat, plus the dealer barely paid attention to me--after all, I was only looking at a 3-series, plus they didn't even want to talk discount from MSRP.
I bought a Legacy GT instead. I got 95% of the car for 66% of the money.
what type of special financing? lower than they're currently offering:3.9% 2 years; 5.9% 3-4 years; 6.9% 5 years. Never really looked into Subarus until recently so I don't know if they do better than this or not.
The backseat is quite cramped, no doubt about it. But I've driven an E30 M3, E30 325, E36 328 and an E46 323 (mis-badged 325)... Do you really think the Legacy GT is 95% the car that the E46 323 is? I don't think so. 85%, maybe. Better value, absolutely.
I gotta hand it to you, you've really been doing your home work. L vs. S, financing, incentives. Way to go.
The 2002s are about to arrive, and I've seen no changes in incentives for the 2001s. Given the 2002 has DRLs, the cargo cover free, and the intermittent rear wiper, all for only $30 more in freight charges, I'd go for that.
The S has rear disc brakes, 16" alloys, rear LSD, heated everything, and a 6 CD changer. Spring for the premium and get the moonroof and side air bags. That's a pretty complete package if you plan on keeping it for a long time.
If you only keep it for a short period (2 years, say), then get an L and then consider upgrading to an S when the 2003s come out. Resale is good so you won't lose much, and then you'll really have a long-term keeper.
Ah, thanks for the correction. That auto-only option sounds similar to what they did back when they first offered the OB Limiteds w/sunroofs. You could only get them with with AT.
one bit if the '02 Legacy GT Limited (with leather) comes only with an automatic. How may 5-speed Legacy GTs Limited have you seen on dealer lots? I'd be surprised if it's 10%, if that, of that model.
From what I hear, 5 speeds account for approximately 10% of Subaru production with the exception of the WRX. I'm told SOA was amazed the percentages were reversed for the initial orders!
BTW, my wife drove my LL Beaner for the first time and complained it was "boring." I should have expected that from a 5 speed Impreza owner!
That simply cannot be correct, Don. Any part of it...
There were something like 65%/35% 5spd/automatics for the '98 Impreza 2.5RS and MANY automatics sat around for a year or more. They learned with 99, and greatly reduced the automatic percentage...
I doubt if they would make the same mistake with the WRX. The will attract new customers, but the vast majority of those new customers will do the right thing and demand a manual transmission.
...CVT transmition? With the new Audi A4 auto and the new Saturn S series and even a few other cars are coming out with CVT (Continuously Variable Transmitions) would it be a good Idea to develop and put one into their cars?
I mean, wouldnt a CVT kick [non-permissible content removed] on a WRX! It would keep the Turbo spooled up constantly
IMHO an un-proven technology is not what Subaru needs in it's lineup. Let the big guys test it out, and work out the kinks in the technology before putting it into my car I rather have a less efficient, more reliable vehicle.
I try to research my next prospective vehicle.(First time to do this).
I have a wierd selection of cars. Looking at HB due to their versatility and utility not to mention good gas mileage. The only mini-SUV considered are Toyota RAV4 and Subaru Forester.
Regarding the HB. Looked at VW Golf 1.8t GLS which runs around 20 grand and requires premium gas. Mazda Protege 5 which with the options I want will run around 19 grand. Since I'd more than likely be buying in 2002, the Toyota Matrix would also be a consideration which should run around 18/19 grand. The Hyunadia Elantra GT is also consider since it a value leader coming in around 15/16 grand.
Since these HB are running around the 19 grand mark, figure might as well look at the RAV4 and Forester for a few thousand more.
Colin, I owned a 2002 years and years ago, when it was almost new. My experience with Bimmer ownership is therefore a bit long in the tooth. However that car was a niggler, always had little things wrong, plus it had a few biggies like a 2nd gear synchro that lasted roughly 2 weeks. I based my rating on my test drive of a 323 standard package, no AWD, no sport stuff, no luxo stuff. That and my expectation of the driving and ownership satisfaction level over the life of the vehicle. I don't know how an AWD Bimmer drives, but at $33k for a similarly equipped car I think I have *that* percentage right :-) Tell you what - let's compromise at 90%.
Justys are cute! I still see them around here. Very popular cars among the cheapskate PA dutchies (said with complete respect - I'm pretty cheap myself - after all, I went with the Subie and not the Bimmer ). I also see a lot of L Subies, also very popular, also kept forever and a day by their owners. That is a tremendously solid base from which Subaru can launch performance and higher class lines; however IMHO they must always remember their roots. A Subie is at its core a value purchase, not a luxury purchase. In the US at any rate.
My error, you're correct! I should have said here in the Midwest, the ratio of autos to 5 speeds is about 90%-10%. Obviously, my statemenmt didn't take into account the Colorado and Pacific NW markets! Thanks for your correction!
I was also told that only 10% of all Subaru vehicles manufactured for N. America were 5-speeds when I was shopping for my Forester. I remember dealers trying to sell me automatics telling me that it's safer.
One thing I have noticed is that all the WRXs that have been tested by car magazines have been 5-speeds. Most other models (OB, GT, Forester) have usually been auto trannys.
CVT isn't unproven technology. Like Colin posted, it's been in use for some time. I think it's more consumer perception that has slowed it's transition to a mainstream market. Some of the new A4s will have CVT, if I remember correctly.
I'm sure the percentage of 5-speed manuals is much higher for Imprezas, than the rest of the Subaru range. Even more so this year, with the advent of the WRX.
If you only consider Foresters and Legacys/Outbacks, I bet at least 90% of them are automatics. That's shame.
Patti- can you confirm these percentages? Automatic vs. manual, per model line for MY2000?
to Product Planning, because I know you want me to, but, our's in the Justy (ECVT - just add electronic) was not that popular. I kind of doubt that they will re-visit that within the near future.
Thanks for sharing the information and keep it comin'!
Comments
Dennis
However, CAFE works in strange ways. You can accumulate credit from past years, and carry debts into future years. Who knows.
-juice
Leo
Medium-duty trucks and SUVs are currently excluded under "work" pretenses, even though vast numbers of them are sold each year for personal use.
-Colin
-mike
-Colin
-mike
All Subies are cars, so they don't catch the break that other manufacturers do. They were exactly at 27.5 last year, and given the 2.2l was dropped and the H6 and turbos showed up, I'm not sure how they'll meet the standard.
-juice
I agree - 5 speed auto trans first. That could even help highway mileage - a lot.
-juice
Are there many 5-speed autos out there in the below to mid $20k price range?
Dennis
-juice
-mike
The point is, Passat almost always comes up as an alternative to Subarus when people are shopping around, more so than the Audi.
-juice
-mike
twisting juice's nutz a bit this morning!
Mercedes and BMW will shortly launch 6-speed automatics on some of their models within a couple of years. That's already been announced.
Bob
And I should've included "cars with above average reliability".
Yeah, people do cross-shop VW, Audi and Subes now.
"Subaru needs to be there" on other issues as well. Like power. I think they're catching up slowly.
Dennis
I dunno, the WRX blows by any Audi rather quickly!
-juice
Ed
Just my imagination running free....:-)
Stephen
That's the only example I have. I think it would provide similar results for Subaru too! Imagine what adding 1 MPG or so to their CAFE numbers - oh, wait, that's a different thread.
Wondering what a 5 speed auto would do to a H6...
-Brian
Bob
-Greg
-Colin
In other words, it could be quicker AND more fuel efficient.
No doubt - we'd all like to see it.
-juice
Leo
Ross
Rebates? Never before, so that's a tough call. They also cut production in Gunma to build more WRXs, so supply will be short (and demand has always been high).
Roll the dice. My guess is probably not, and even if they do it would be small ($500).
-juice
Bob
I imagine it won't be long before entry-level BMW 3-series shoppers look at Subaru as well.
*wave* That's me. The Bimmer was a sweet drive, but it was a "stripper" compared to the Subie; adding enough good stuff pushed the price over $30k in a flash. Plus it had a tight back seat, plus the dealer barely paid attention to me--after all, I was only looking at a 3-series, plus they didn't even want to talk discount from MSRP.
I bought a Legacy GT instead. I got 95% of the car for 66% of the money.
Regards,
-wdb
what type of special financing? lower than they're currently offering:3.9% 2 years; 5.9% 3-4 years; 6.9% 5 years. Never really looked into Subarus until recently so I don't know if they do better than this or not.
Leo
-Colin
I gotta hand it to you, you've really been doing your home work. L vs. S, financing, incentives. Way to go.
The 2002s are about to arrive, and I've seen no changes in incentives for the 2001s. Given the 2002 has DRLs, the cargo cover free, and the intermittent rear wiper, all for only $30 more in freight charges, I'd go for that.
The S has rear disc brakes, 16" alloys, rear LSD, heated everything, and a 6 CD changer. Spring for the premium and get the moonroof and side air bags. That's a pretty complete package if you plan on keeping it for a long time.
If you only keep it for a short period (2 years, say), then get an L and then consider upgrading to an S when the 2003s come out. Resale is good so you won't lose much, and then you'll really have a long-term keeper.
-juice
Ken
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010329/phth019.html
5 speed drivers probably drive more aggressively, and so the grippy cloth isn't a bad idea for those drivers. Still, Subaru should offer the choice.
-juice
Ken
Bob
BTW, my wife drove my LL Beaner for the first time and complained it was "boring." I should have expected that from a 5 speed Impreza owner!
Don
There were something like 65%/35% 5spd/automatics for the '98 Impreza 2.5RS and MANY automatics sat around for a year or more. They learned with 99, and greatly reduced the automatic percentage...
I doubt if they would make the same mistake with the WRX. The will attract new customers, but the vast majority of those new customers will do the right thing and demand a manual transmission.
-Colin
With the new Audi A4 auto and the new Saturn S series and even a few other cars are coming out with CVT (Continuously Variable Transmitions) would it be a good Idea to develop and put one into their cars?
I mean, wouldnt a CVT kick [non-permissible content removed] on a WRX! It would keep the Turbo spooled up constantly
-mike
I try to research my next prospective vehicle.(First time to do this).
I have a wierd selection of cars. Looking at HB due to their versatility and utility not to mention good gas mileage. The only mini-SUV considered are Toyota RAV4 and Subaru Forester.
Regarding the HB. Looked at VW Golf 1.8t GLS which runs around 20 grand and requires premium gas. Mazda Protege 5 which with the options I want will run around 19 grand. Since I'd more than likely be buying in 2002, the Toyota Matrix would also be a consideration which should run around 18/19 grand. The Hyunadia Elantra GT is also consider since it a value leader coming in around 15/16 grand.
Since these HB are running around the 19 grand mark, figure might as well look at the RAV4 and Forester for a few thousand more.
Leo
-Colin
I guess I'm just sore about the bleeding edge technology used in my XT6 and how it has not exactly worked out very well...
-mike
Justys are cute! I still see them around here. Very popular cars among the cheapskate PA dutchies (said with complete respect - I'm pretty cheap myself - after all, I went with the Subie and not the Bimmer ). I also see a lot of L Subies, also very popular, also kept forever and a day by their owners. That is a tremendously solid base from which Subaru can launch performance and higher class lines; however IMHO they must always remember their roots. A Subie is at its core a value purchase, not a luxury purchase. In the US at any rate.
Cheers,
-wdb
My error, you're correct! I should have said here in the Midwest, the ratio of autos to 5 speeds is about 90%-10%. Obviously, my statemenmt didn't take into account the Colorado and Pacific NW markets! Thanks for your correction!
Don
One thing I have noticed is that all the WRXs that have been tested by car magazines have been 5-speeds. Most other models (OB, GT, Forester) have usually been auto trannys.
CVT isn't unproven technology. Like Colin posted, it's been in use for some time. I think it's more consumer perception that has slowed it's transition to a mainstream market. Some of the new A4s will have CVT, if I remember correctly.
Ken
If you only consider Foresters and Legacys/Outbacks, I bet at least 90% of them are automatics. That's shame.
Patti- can you confirm these percentages? Automatic vs. manual, per model line for MY2000?
Bob
Thanks for sharing the information and keep it comin'!
Patti