I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

sda · February 2022

301 V8 performance, or lack of

This quote always stuck with me.

kyfdx · February 2022

My '77 302 V-8 had the same HP rating as the Bonneville. 135

uplanderguy · February 2022

I know it's different people, different magazine, doing the testing, but they show the Bonneville 5db noisier at 50 mph than the Caprice at 60 mph. Maybe some of that is the 301 working harder, who knows.

andre1969 · February 2022

Wow, that poor Bonneville. I actually feel sorry for it! I see they're using the THM200 transmission (2.74:1 first gear), which in theory I guess should help it launch a bit better than the 2.52:1 in the THM350, plus the transmission probably saps a bit less HP in general. But then they offset that by giving it that horrible 2.41:1 axle.

I know the weights listed in the engine chart compilations online aren't exactly the gospel, but I seem to remember the Pontiac 301 block was fairly light weight, at around 450 lb, whereas the Chevy smallblock was around 575. So I guess in theory the 301 should have a bit of advantage, although I don't know if shaving 125 lb from the weight of the car is going to really make a noticeable difference in acceleration. Or fuel economy.

And this one wasn't exactly a lightweight, either. And a bit of a pig, fuel economy-wise. And yeah, it's odd that the Bonneville is noisier. I'd think it would still have enough power that, at 50 mph it would be loafing along in top gear, so I'd think the engine should be quieter than the Caprice with the 3:08:1 gearing.

andre1969 · February 2022

Something else I wonder, about that R&T test. How accurate is that cutaway drawing, with respect to scale and such? I'm guessing it's a bit off, because looking at the outline of the engine and transmission in relation to the front seat, the transmission hump would be HUGE on this car! But, one thing I notice is that overall, the engine sits pretty far back, so the bulk of it is behind the front axle, which I'd think would be fairly good for weight distribution.

I remember seeing a similar cutaway of a Monarch or Granada, and remembered a good amount of the engine seemed like it was ahead of the front axle, which would make it more nose-heavy, I'd think. I wonder if that was one reason those Granada/Monarchs were criticized as handling so slopily?

sda · February 2022

I hope I'm not wearing everyone out...I am having a slow workday and have been browsing old articles. I found this interesting concerning the 78 Olds 350 V8 diesel that was initially 120hp, later reduced to 105hp.
Dad had the 120hp in his 79 Eldorado diesel and I thought it ran strong (though troublesome like most).

stickguy · February 2022

But the Pontiac at least got 13.5 MPG to make up for the slow acceleration!

andre1969 · February 2022

Here's another little pig to add to the 70's files...

A 1976 Volare with a curb weight of 3960 lb...at a test weight of 4370! So basically, car marketed as a compact, that's about has heavy as the Caprice and Bonneville...and as tested, slightly heavier!

I wonder why the test weight variance is so much greater? With the other two cars, it's about 220 lb, about the weight of a decent-sized driver. But with the Volare, it's about the equivalent of two people on board.

I know being a wagon it would be a bit heavier than a sedan, but it just wows me that this car weighed close to two tons!

sda · February 2022

andre1969 said:
Here's another little pig to add to the 70's files...

A 1976 Volare with a curb weight of 3960 lb...at a test weight of 4370! So basically, car marketed as a compact, that's about has heavy as the Caprice and Bonneville...and as tested, slightly heavier!

I wonder why the test weight variance is so much greater? With the other two cars, it's about 220 lb, about the weight of a decent-sized driver. But with the Volare, it's about the equivalent of two people on board.

I know being a wagon it would be a bit heavier than a sedan, but it just wows me that this car weighed close to two tons!

The acceleration numbers practically mirror the Bonneville and the Volare gets 1mpg less.

sda · February 2022

I maybe late to the party, but yesterday I discovered the Curbside Classic site while looking for road test info for the 77 Bonneville. I must say, I can lose time in that site, good stuff.

andre1969 · February 2022

Yeah, they have some pretty good stuff. They're the source I stumbled across awhile back when I had posted some stats on the Caprice vs LTD comparisons, and that 1981 Malibu versus Omega comparo.

Yesterday I stumbled across a page where they honored the 1975 Granada with the award of "Most Malaise Car Ever!"

One of the highlights of that page is a comparison between a 1975 Nova LN and a Granada, both equipped with 250-6cyl engines. The spec page is interesting, in that it lists a bunch of stats of 1974 cars, for comparison...

Resolution isn't the best, but if you right click and open the image in a new tab, it opens at a higher resolution. Some of those acceleration times are real eye openers, as to just how bad cars could be.

I swear, after reading those, I'll never whine about my '03 Regal feeling "slow" ever again!

uplanderguy · February 2022

I have always loved the '75 LN, but I rarely saw them then and I never see them now.

I would've wanted the 350 4-barrel and the Turbine (like Monte Carlo Landau) wheels.

I prefer it to the Malibu Classic that year, two-door or four.

uplanderguy · February 2022

RE.: '76 Volare--I liked them when they came out. Seemed so smooth compared to the Valiant, which was long-in-the-tooth by then but certainly a good car. The wagon was something no other compact offered.

I like the original taillights too, before they got into some of those whacked-out (IMHO) revisions later.

People across the street bought a new navy blue 4-door sedan Volare. It said "Aspen" on the decklid.

stickguy · February 2022

72 HP out of 4 liters. Impressive. And 23 sec 0-60? That’s beetle with low compression territory.

uplanderguy · February 2022

Wait.... I can't tell....is that a Granada, or a Mercedes?!!!

In silver they're indistinguishable! LOL

I remember the commercial showing a Granada owner who got a parking ticket and it had "Mercedes Benz" written on it.

That must've been from 'Lovely Rita'.

I will say, the Granada surely sold well, at least where I lived.

The LN was a Nova, but the Granada looked different from a Maverick.

That's the type of criticism usually hurled at Ford and not GM, at least at that point in time.

This has been discussed here before, but I was always accustomed to how GM did instruments, numbers, shift quadrants, armrests, door lock buttons, window cranks, etc.

The Granada's single-square big instrument cluster, and the '67-68 Mercury single big circle, always seemed odd to me. Of course I realize it's all about what you were accustomed to.

andre1969 · February 2022

I'd seen that 72 hp thrown around for ages, with the 250, and used to think it was a typo. Most other years it tended to be in the 90-98 hp range. In the article text, they gave an excuse along the lines of Ford overdoing it in the emissions department, so that it ran so clean that it was compliant not just with 1975 standards, but '76 standards, as well, which apparently were stricter.

But the down side of making it so "clean" emissions-wise, was that it was slow, AND a gas guzzler. I always thought it was ironic, that sometimes a clean running car would be more of a guzzler. It's like oh, it's burning more fuel, but at least it's burning it more cleanly! Anyway, they did manage to get it up to 90 hp for 1976, and 98 for 1977, so apparently they figured out some way to have it pass emissions standards and get a bit more power out of it.

Years ago, I mentioned Consumer Reports testing a 1977 Cutlass Supreme sedan with the 260 V8, and getting 0-60 in something like 21.6 seconds. One of my friends repeated that statistic, on some other automotive forum, and had people arguing that there's no way it could have been that slow. But, seeing some of these other acceleration times from the era, suddenly that 21.6 seconds doesn't seem so bad.

The Olds 260 was another one of those engines where the hp seemed really low for its displacement, even for that era. It usually put out 100-110 hp, depending on the year. It always used a 2-bbl carb. But, the Buick 231-2bbl was usually good for 105-115 hp depending on the year. The Chevy 250-6 ranged from 105-115 I think, and that was just with a 1-bbl carb. And GM's other small V8s were a bit better, like the Chevy 267, which had 115-125 hp, and the Pontiac 265 had 120, IIRC.

Didn't the 260 use one of those 2-bbl carbs that looked like a 4-bbl, just with the secondaries welded shut?

sda · February 2022

When I was in HS a friend's parents had two Granadas. A 76 in light metallic blue, matching vinyl top, upgraded interior, 250, at, ps ,pb, ac. I drove it several times. I was quiet, rode well, wandered all over the road, much steering correction needed and was gutless. They also had a 77 Granada, white, no vinyl top, red base interior, 250, same as the 76. For some reason the 77 seemed to feel peppier, not quick by any means, just more alive. Otherwise drove the same as the 76.

andre---that's probably why..

"Anyway, they did manage to get it up to 90 hp for 1976, and 98 for 1977"

sda · February 2022

I was reading a long term road test review on the 71 Vega, overall not very complimentary. Noisy overall, rough engine, etc. However....

texases · February 2022

I think it was @andre1969 that commented earlier on the accuracy of the vehicle drawings - here's a good example, the Nova looks much shorter, difference is only about 1" in reality. Oops.

ab348 · February 2022

We had a '74 Maverick 4-door with the 250 "big six" and C4 transmission that was a total slug. Never felt peppy in any circumstance. Probably a good thing though, as the teacup-sized drum brakes were equally bad.

I remember at the time reading my car magazines for info on the Ford 6-cylinder engines. The family ours had (144-170-200-250) was apparently designed for cheap manufacture and economy of operation at the expense of power/torque.The truck sixes (240 and 300) were totally different and responded well to hop-up tactics.

kyfdx · February 2022

My then girlfriend had a Monarch. '76-'78 range, I think. When going uphill, she would switch the A/C off, to maintain speed.

texases · February 2022

Pretty telling that the reviewers couldn't get that Granada up to 80 mph.

uplanderguy · February 2022

The car media was generally all-in on the Vega compared to other small cars (I remember 'best small car in the world' or the like). Styling, body style choices and flat cornering were frequently mentioned. I always think that had the '76 been the '71, things might've turned out differently.

I was on a Vega FB page for awhile until the 'leader' got upset with me for saying something, LOL. One would think every single new-Vega owner would've hated their cars. Far from it, at least from people who posted there. Some had more than one new one.

I've said this before, but I'm amazed at how many people have no idea what a Cosworth is. On other sites, people post, "When I had my '71, it (fill in the blank)". LOL If you post on a car site, you might think you might have a general working knowledge of what was out then.

But that brings me back to the guy who insisted he was right, that the Ventura was what Pontiac called the Bonneville four-door hardtop.

Best if you're not sure, to either say nothing or say you're not sure.

But I guess folks like that don't know they're not sure, LOL.

ab348 · February 2022

My only experience with a Vega was in a rental hatchback we got for some reason and I drove it back and forth to university for a few days. I think this would have been around '75 or '76. I quite liked it. I remember it was yellow with a tan deluxe interior. Don't know what it would have been like long term but I can't see how it could have been worse than the Maverick from what I recall about both.

uplanderguy · February 2022

I could still enjoy, besides a Cosworth, a '76 or '77 GT Kammback.

sda · February 2022

uplanderguy said:
I could still enjoy, besides a Cosworth, a '76 or '77 GT Kammback.

In later years you could get the 'Kammback' as a Monza or Sunbird with a V6. That would have been my choice. I did have a sunflower yellow 71 Vega GT in HS and freshman year at college. The orange sticker is the parking permit at UT/Knoxville. Burned oil but always started.

fintail · February 2022

Granada - can you tell its looks from a $20000 Mercedes-Benz? Why yes, yes I can. I suspect a Granada base enough to cost the same as a Rabbit was also not a luxurious ride.

Speaking of Granada, one came up on local CL, and it brought back a flood of memories

When I was a kid, a relative had a coupe, maybe a Ghia model as I think it had fancier trim and I think a velour interior. I think it was burgundy on burgundy. I vividly remember the clock, which was oddly located on the glovebox door, and was one of those mechanical "digital" rollover types. Seeing the nameplate badge on the glovebox in that ad made me think of the clock.

andre1969 · February 2022

A guy I used to know in one of the Mopar clubs I belonged to told me he once owned both a Vega and a Pinto. I forget the year, but they were both early models. He said that he did have to have one cylinder in the Vega sleeved, but that was about it. Otherwise, no major issues, and I think he had it to around 100,000 miles. I think he drove the Pinto about that same distance, and he didn't have anything bad to say about either one.

Now, the 1994 Chrysler Concorde he had at the time, that's a different story. I forget what problems he had with it now, but do seem to recall intake manifold problems, and a water pump failure were among them. It had the 3.5, which was OHC and got a lot of good press from the magazines at the time. But, I have a feeling Consumer Reports' long-term reliability charts were not part of that good press!

This was also around the 1996-1999 timeframe, so the car wasn't that old at the time, either.

uplanderguy · February 2022

The later Monza and Sunbird wagons could be had with a V6; I forgot about that. Pinto wagons could be had with a V6 in those later years as well. I do remember seeing a few of the Monza wagons at the dealers I hung out at, but not many. Those V6's would be more fun to drive of course. I guess 'cause I tend to like sticking my tongue out or thumbing my nose or whatever you like to call it, as a collector car I'd rather have the original Vega (but a late one).

Remember that there was a price-leader "Monza S" that was a Vega hatchback but with the unattractive (to my eyes) base Monza front-end styling they had in those late '70's years? I think I've seen one of those.

I always liked the Kammback (and even the Panel Express) best of the Vega styling. I will admit however than when the Pinto wagon was introduced a year or so after the Pinto came out (initially as only a two-door sedan; hatch and wagon released later), the Pinto wagon had more cargo capacity than the Kammback and had the availability, I think, of swing-out windows for the rear seat (not certain now that I think hard about it). But hard to beat the looks of a Vega wagon for a car at that lower end.

uplanderguy · February 2022

BTW sda, do you remember if your Vega GT had the Custom Interior option (essentially, Camaro bucket seats)? What a distinct step up from the agrarian standard interior! I can see in the pic the grab bar on the dash but I think the GT got you that.

I always liked the Vega GT and Cosworth instrument panels....straightforward, instrumented, grab bar, and open cubby hole for storage.

uplanderguy · February 2022

RE.: CR....you know me, but I had to laugh. In one year the '18 Cruze (one year newer than mine) went from much-worse-than-average to much-better-than-average this year. Surprised to see the '18 Civic being much-worse-than-average per them this year.

sda · February 2022

Unfortunately my Vega GT had the standard interior but did have the optional two position driver's seatback and tinted glass. The custom interior was so much nicer. Thankfully the interior on mine was in good shape, no rips, tears, nice carpet. The plain seats were actually comfortable.

uplanderguy · February 2022

Back then, I took a special interest in Vegas because my grandparents bought the very first one our hometown dealer got in, and they were built maybe 35 miles from where I grew up. We got Youngstown TV stations and whenever anything was celebrated, or a negative hiccup occurred, at Lordstown, it was always on the TV news we got.

In 1974 sales of the Vega were so high they started building them at Ste. Therese, Quebec as well as Lordstown, to satisfy demand in the U.S. and I assume Canada. Until then, they were only built at Lordstown.

sda · February 2022

On our drive a couple of years ago to visit friends in the Detroit area I remember driving by the Lordstown plant. IIRC it had billboard exclaiming 'Home of the Cruze'. Ofcourse I knew the plant was built initially for the Vega. It gave me satisfaction to see it and also made me sad as I knew the Cruze and plant for GM was history.

uplanderguy · February 2022

When Lordstown opened in 1966, they were building full-size Chevrolets. Believe it or not, when the FIrebird was introduced in mid-'67, those were added to the mix. Had I not seen it myself, I'd be skeptical, LOL. When the vans were redesigned for the '71 model year, both Chevy and GMC, they were built there then. The plant was largely retooled to build the Vega, which started production in July or August of '70.

There's an electric truck maker called "Lordstown Motors" in there now, but they seem to be dogged by negative press. GM actually has built a new battery plant in Lordstown although do not assemble vehicles there anymore, of course.

andre1969 · February 2022

Back in 2009, on my way to the Cedar Point amusement park, either me or one of my friends took this pic of the Lordstown plant...

Man, where does the time go? That doesn't seem all that long ago, but to think that the Cruze has come and gone since I took this pic, and this June, it'll be thirteen years!

uplanderguy · February 2022

I'll tell you, when I heard of the closing announcement, I felt like I'd been kicked in the stomach. People where I live now, and where I grew up, worked there over the decades. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised--the plant was over fifty years old, and they were only building the Cruze sedan. That the Cruze hatch wasn't built there was a clue.

In 2016, for the fiftieth anniversary, they had a big car show, especially for Lordstown-built cars. I went although it was rainy (drove my Cobalt). The place is out in the middle of nowhere; I approached it from the south and you crest a hill and there it was...like the Emerald CIty.

There was the east plant, and the west plant (or maybe the north plant, and the south plant). When vans were built there, they were built in their own plant, that I remember. Anyway, I couldn't even find the car show! I had to stop and ask a security guard. He was friendly, maybe because I was in a Cobalt. But I did find it. I enjoyed it even though it was wet out.

andre1969 · February 2022

I was looking through some old pics, and found this...

A friend of mine took it in DC, about five years ago.

fintail · February 2022

W114 coupe, before 1974 with the small bumpers. 250C/250CE/280C/280CE. Unloved on the market for a long time, I am pretty sure a really nice one can still be picked up in the US for 15K or so.

kyfdx · February 2022

fintail said:
W114 coupe, before 1974 with the small bumpers. 250C/250CE/280C/280CE. Unloved on the market for a long time, I am pretty sure a really nice one can still be picked up in the US for 15K or so.

I love the '70s 280 coupes. Might be my favorite Mercedes

sda · February 2022

@fintail said:
W114 coupe, before 1974 with the small bumpers. 250C/250CE/280C/280CE. Unloved on the market for a long time, I am pretty sure a really nice one can still be picked up in the US for 15K or so.

sda · February 2022

I always liked those along with the CS series BMW.

Michaell · February 2022

kyfdx said:

fintail said:
W114 coupe, before 1974 with the small bumpers. 250C/250CE/280C/280CE. Unloved on the market for a long time, I am pretty sure a really nice one can still be picked up in the US for 15K or so.
I love the '70s 280 coupes. Might be my favorite Mercedes

Agreed. $15K wouldn't be too bad for something to drive on the weekends - like the fintail.

andre1969 · February 2022

Wow, it's amazing what a difference color can make...

The LTD-II is one of those cars I didn't care for when they were newer, but now that they're pretty much just the stuff of car shows, I'm finding a new appreciation for them. And this color just wows me.

But, on the downside, good LORD that is an ill-fitting bumper! I'm wondering if it's the same bumper they used on the '76 Elite. Looking at the two, there's a very strong resemblance. While it juts out too far on the Elite as well, it still seems like the overall shape works a bit better with that car.

These cars became obsolete the moment GM downsized their big cars, and to be fair, the Torino/Montego versions were on thin ice before that. But, I still kinda like them. While these were still just warmed over, old-school intermediates, I think Ford did a better job updating them, in an attempt to keep the modern looking, than what Mopar did with their intermediates.

I'm not a huge fan of the stacked headlights on the LTD-II, and they're inset a bit too far for my tastes. It almost looks like the front was designed for a Granada, but then they stuck it on a much wider car. But, heck, if I came across one in this color, in good shape, I could see myself being tempted.

uplanderguy · February 2022

I like those colors, but could do without the "II" decal.

By '77 I was so enamored of the idea of big interior/reasonable exterior, that that-there car is probably every bit as bad in the space-utilization department as the same year Monte Carlo.

Although, probably the worst use of space were Camaros and Firebirds of that era.

I know, that's not what anybody bought any of these cars for.

But at least it doesn't have straps on the decklid.

I like the looks of these better than the original Elite....wide side moldings, wide wheel opening moldings, double opera windows, many pieces of taillight trim.

stickguy · February 2022

well, to me that car is hideous but I do love the color!

ab348 · February 2022

Ford did impact bumpers the worst of all the domestic manufacturers. Chromed railroad ties.

andre1969 · February 2022

Here's Pontiac's take on that 2-tone green, from '77...

Pontiac called the light color "Bahia" and the dark color "Berkshire". That "Bahia" is the color that makes me think a bit of the early 80's light jadestone, and where to my eye, at least, it seems to have just the slightest hint of blue in it.

One thing that I notice though...for some reason I don't find the combo quite as appealing on the Pontiac. I don't know if it's because I prefer the dark color on top, like on the LTD-II, or just the two-toning in general, the way it comes to a peak on the hood, or what.

Or it could be something as simple as I like the Grand Prix a lot already, so the color doesn't improve on it that much. But with the LTD-II, it's taking a car that I never was that crazy about, but really makes it pop, so in that case, it really is all about the color.

Style-wise though, I think the Grand Prix has it all over the LTD-II. The bumper seems to fit better, the front just seems so much more smooth and tasteful, and even the proportioning looks better. The LTD-II is too much hood, and also too much overhang in front. And, with the way it slopes in the back, it seems like it doesn't have quite enough rump. But the Grand Prix just seems "right" overall.

sda · February 2022

Two tone paint was really popular in the late 70s, early 80s. For the most part I like it, depending on color, of course.

uplanderguy · February 2022

Ford did impact bumpers the worst of all the domestic manufacturers. Chromed railroad ties.

I like these cars, and the simple grille, but it'd be hard to note more of a 'chromed railroad tie' than the front of a '73 Chevelle.

They were made slightly more tolerable mid-year, when the filler panel changed from silver on all exterior colors to body color, but still...what were they thinking?

RE.: Two-tone--I loved it on '77 Caprice Classics when I first saw them. I will say, I saw more than one where application of high-power spray like at a do-it-yourself car wash, the dividing tape pinstripe went flying off, sigh.

World's worst two-tone--'76 Monte Carlo "Fashion Tone". Only the front-fender blister and surrounding area were the contrasting color on the lower body. Just a big blob of different color. Truly yuck.

I loved the Light Jade Green over Dark Jade Green on my '81 Monte Carlo. Roof and hood the light color; everything else dark. I wasn't even looking for that, just the Dark Jade Green, but my dealer located this car that was close to everything else I wanted. I'm glad I did buy it at age 22.5 even though the car didn't have the Rally Wheels I'd been looking for.

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

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