Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

brorjace · October 2001

I've never seen a dead-dino 5W50 motor oil, just a synthetic. Since dead-dino oils need more viscosity improvers in order to achieve the same multi-viscosity rating, I would think the amount of elastomer goo they'd have to use would be prohibitive.

Perhaps they have a dino 5W50 in Europe? I know they have 5W40 oils over there ... but I don't know if this is dino or synthetic.

Anyway, I don't want to drag Europe into it. They are so full of weird laws and regulations about this and that over there. I don't trust the way they tell everyone to use a wide-spread multi-vis oil and extend their drain intervals as much as they do. I think they are more concerned with motorists using another gallon of oil per year (and disposing of it afterword) than people properly taking care of their cars. Of course, once the car wears out prematurely ... it becomes another disposal problem. Typical, foolish, short-sighted thinking. <|^(

Anyway, the point is that at a given weight of oil, say 5W30, a dino will require more viscosity improver than a synthetic will to meet that standard. At 10W30, most synthetics use ZERO viscosity improver while dino oils probably still use quite a bit. Synthetics are more stable at both extremes of cold and heat and so naturally do a better job. >:^)

As for the ultra-thin stuff, I'm just as mistrustful of 5W20 oil as ever. If it were MY car, I'd use a 5W30 full synthetic and no one would ever know the difference. The 5W20 oils I've seen (Motorcraft, mostly) are all at least semi-synthetic.

Oh, and don't forget the additive package with those 40wt 'heavy duty' oils. They have more crucial anti-wear agents such as ZDDP that newer SJ/SL motor oil formulations lack. That alone could make up the difference in the amount of wear on those tests.

I think Chevron makes a Delo 400 5W30 (heavy duty) that would be a GREAT dead-dino oil to use! Actually it's a blend of normal dino and "iso-syn" which is a heavily isodewaxed/hydrocracked petroleum which some people (*cough* Castrol *cough*) believe is good enough to be called "synthetic".

--- Bror Jace

adc100 · October 2001

very interesting about the reduction of 150K to greater than 100K!! Where did you see this. I certainly don't doubt you. For personel reasons, I totally mistrust Ford. I was under the impression that Ford needed to probe to EPA that their engine would hold up to 150K with the 20 wt. oil.

wtd44 · October 2001

Could we conclude that if we use 10w-40 that in reality, the warranty people (manufacturer) could not really tell? If the vehicle operator declared that 5w-20 or even 10w-30 had been used, that the "warranty investigation" could not prove otherwise? I would assume that a sample of oil removed from the remains of a blown engine could be analyzed, and its residual viscosity and spread of viscosity could be determined.

armtdm · October 2001

If the engine blown and the 10W40 in there yes, it would show in analysis. However, probability of not being able to run engine is small ( perhaps bad rings, valves, gasket etc.) so if a warranty issue, drain and fill with a 5W20 and go for warranty!

wtd44 · October 2001

I doubt that the manufacturer could prove in a trial that the customer using 5w-30 instead of 5w-20 was paramount in the engine failure, or even contributory. I have read arbitration results that indicate that the owner might lose there, the arbitration favoring the manufacturer with bias.

mrdetailer · October 2001

This is what I got from Mobil

Thank you for your inquiry.

Most car manufacturers recommend 5W-30 or 10W-30 grades for normal
driving conditions. Improved engine technology with tighter piston ring
and cylinder wall tolerances allows the use of a lower-viscosity oil
without increasing oil consumption. (A "loose" engine - or one with
wide tolerances - allows too much oil to get past the piston rings and
into the combustion chamber, where the oil is burned along with
gasoline.)

We recommend that you follow the engine manufacturer's recommendations
as indicated in your owner's manual. For maximum low-temperature
performance and maximum fuel economy, use the lightest recommended oil
viscosity. Heavier oils can impede engine starting, lower fuel economy
and steal horse-power.

mrdetailer · October 2001

My lube manager just saw a training video on these newer vehicles and he definitely would not recommend using 10W-30 in place of a 5W20. They didn't mention a 5W30.

He he mentioned the same as the Mobil tech guy that the newer engine tolerances were closer and use of the 10W-30 could burn out valves.

Personally, if you use a synthetic, the molecules are uniform and smaller anyway. I don't think a synthetic 5W-30 would void a warrenty.

On oil weight and analysis. I've seen many well run oils in analysis and they are generally heavier than what was put in anyway. I think it would be difficult after the fact to determine what weight was entered just by analylsis.

wtd44 · October 2001

It dawns on me that the 5W is the really important part, then. The 20 or 30 part refers to an indirect effect based on elastomers added to a "true" 5W oil. The 5W20 runs out of protection for your engine prior to when a 5W30 would, but both start at a cold 5 weight that will get into the tight tolerances of the newer engines. SO! Stay away from 10W anything on those engines, but don't get too weird about the 30 part being too heavy duty, somehow. GM determined years ago that going a spread of up to 25 points, based on elastomers, was safe in terms of "gumming up" potential.

mrdetailer · October 2001

In spite of what the FTC said, much engine wear occurs on a cold startup. Also all the more reason to have the greater protection of synthetic for close tolerance engines.

gsleve · October 2001

inconsequenital 5w opposed 10w are they not ? Both in a synthetic surpass API requirements for flowability therefore protection in a synthetic is immediate is it not ? Mobil 1 5w -60, 10w -65, 15w -55 degrees below zero.

These designations 5w 10w are within the context of petroleums and their respective flowability properties, which the API has established.

wtd44 · October 2001

Residual lubricity is protective, no matter what the base. When the oil pump pushes the lube to the wear zones, then dependable protection begins. Synthetics are not magic. Petroleum oils are not trash.

adc100 · October 2001

Synthetics have an affinity for metal, the molecules cling to the metal better. I really don't know why but they do.

gsleve · October 2001

and naturalness to cling better but isn't a dino severly lacking, in this area thus establishing that synthetics in particular their chemical makeup is a planned and predictive an engineered to cling to metal better and offer under ambient temperatures greater protection even for extended periods of time.

Dino's are just adequate oil's don't get me wrong they'll do the job fairly. Maybe this analogy may work. If we had the option to choose which medium music gets recorded 8 track, vynl or cd we usually opt for cd's given the new technology cd's are crisp digitally mastered thereby enhancing the music's listening quality. Given that one would not resort to listening to 8 track or vynl without an expressed purpose in mind.

CD's are the way to go yes by todays standards the old medium to record music were and are adequate yet we alway's are looking for better.

Oil technology has advanced to a superior height synthetics seemed to have reached that height. Petrol can't cut it by comparison, oh yes adequate and that is as far as they will go.

brorjace · October 2001

I think where your analogy breaks down is that the human ear hasn't evolved much, if at all in the past 100 years ... while internal combustion engines most certainly have.

Todays engines run hotter at higher revs to get the most power while keeping emissions low and fuel economy high. These conditions are murder on oil. A given dino oil from 20 years ago would NOT properly lubricate some of the newest, high-RPM engines of today and might be iffy at best on the rest.

As for synthetic oils at start up, I think their lower coefficient of friction and greater natural viscosity makes it harder for their film to get completely wiped off a given engine surface the first times the motor turns over during a cold start up. So, they should provide at least some additional protection until the oil system gets up to speed.

--- Bror Jace

wtd44 · October 2001

I couldn't agree with you more. And if you REALLY respect film strength, then polyol formulas are for you. Think RED LINE. (:^>
But I still must conclude that petroleum based oils are more than adequate for most vehicle uses.

gsleve · October 2001

my point was that their is a constant improvement and development to enhance or enrich our quality of life be it music or something else true the human ear has not evolved much yet it can appreciate ever so clearly the highs and lows and clarity articulated on a cd than vynl. I concur with you in terms of engine refinements and meeting the demanding needs of lubrication without sacrificing performance and longevity, synthetics surpass greatly in meeting these needs just in film strength alone petro exhibits film strength of 500 psi whereas a synthetics nominal film strength is 3000 psi next enter in cold startup, petro is at best adequate in meeting these needs of the modern engine. Manufacturers are seeing the light that dino oils in there present states cannot rise to the occasion, r&d is seeking to rerefine these oils ie: hydrocracked to replace the antiquated crude petro.

mack20 · October 2001

Hi.....

I have used 10W30 in an older Accord with 160K miles. Unfortunately, after my last
oil change, 5W30 was put in. When cold, the car emits blue exhaust until it warms up.
Previously, with the 10W30, this car was pretty clean burning with no blue exhaust.

Has the addition of 5W30 hurt the engine in any way? I'm assuming that due to the age
and mileage, the engine is pretty "loose". Will it hurt if I run 5W30 for at least another week?

I plan to switch back to 10W30 soon to protect the environment and avoid the embaressment, however its a pain waiting in line for 30-40 minutes for another oil change within a week.

Thanks

sdayalani · October 2001

depending on where u live, presuming the winter isin't as severe.
depending on the brand, i know synthetic 10w30 is capable of pumping at around -40 celcius.

imo, unless u live where i live (hint: see flag) your accord should be ok on 10w30.

gmlover1 · October 2001

I doubt if it,s going to hurt your engine to use 5w30. The only reason it,s smoking is because the thinner oil is going past the valve seals.

csandste · October 2001

but isn't that what it's good for? Cars with high mileage with leaking valve seals? I'd probably dump in a bottle and wait for the next oil change.

brorjace · October 2001

I already use Redline. >;^)

So far, I don't see an improvement over the PAO stuff (both Mobil & Valvoline).

Mileage may have even decreased a smidgen ... but I blame that on going with Redline 10W30 as opposed to having just come off using Valvoline 5W30. Also, the Redline doesn't seem to thin out when it gets hot as much as the others.

But, that should mean it's protecting better. >:^)

Anyway, I'm gonna switch to Redline 5W30 after Thanksgiving.

--- Bror Jace

adc100 · October 2001

And are you switching it in the same vehicle... after how many miles? Im doubtful that you would see the difference in milage. I would think you would be doing very-very many short runs to see that. I've never noticed any difference between the 5W/10W in any of my vehicles. The less goo in the oil needed to make the 5W-the better. I follow milage pretty closely. But any info on the Redline is appreciated. I was thinking of switching but for now -no.

wtd44 · October 2001

I used REDLINE in my 1986 Harley Softail for several years. I did not pay attention to mileage or any other easily observed variable. I did it to keep the moving parts in the reciprocating mass from abrading those in the rotating and stationary masses, etc. I also used it in several cars and trucks. I hope the second owner of each of those vehicles appreciated all that volume of money I spent on the REDLINE for their benefit. I did not keep any of the vehicles long enough to really get the long range benefit of tremendously reduced wear that I believe REDLINE can and will produce.

mrdetailer · October 2001

If it worked fine at 10W-30 then go back to that. I don't think 160K should be engine threatening on modern engines. STP may stop smoke, but it will definitely increase gas mileage.

adc100 · October 2001

Its good to know you are happy with it. I guess I wish I could get quantative evidence which is the best. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Redline is not the best.

wtd44 · October 2001

I agree. I also wonder if there is a reasonable trail to follow to the facts. The makers are not giving up enough tech info to make such comparisons. I suspect I will stick mostly to petro-based lube, unless the nebulous if not obfuscated info situation disappears. There are some risks involved, as well.

sdayalani · October 2001

i feel its suited for turbo engines ...or engines that run hotter than normal. its an overkill for anything else.

for an average compact or mid-sized passenger car, a brand name PAO synthetic (thats also easily available ..mobil1/valvoline) is more than adequate.

the fine print on the back of the valvoline synpower bottle states that it's suitable for extended drain intervals.

the only thing i cant figure out is why synpower 5w-30 didnt manage to meet ilsac gf-3 specs while 10w30 did.
both 5w30 and 10w30 meet API SL specs though.
something to think about ..

mack20 · October 2001

Hi....

i live in ontario also. Mississauga to be exact. So we will probably see temperatures around
-20 etc. I usually put in 10W30, however this time I forgot to tell the attendant.
I thought that its pretty standard to put 10W30 in a car of this vintage. In any case,
it just smokes upon startup with the 5W30. Once running its fine. Its just a little annoying. However I dont really want to spend the time waiting + money, on another oil change.

However if the engine is not going to get runined by using this thinner oil....I guess I'll wait for a while.

adc100 · October 2001

,

minahan1 · October 2001

My engine blew two rods through the block. Next week I go to civil hearing to have case heard because the evidence points to the quick change business as at fault. The mahanic who towed the car said it had to do with the quick change establishment also. He unfortunately changed his story after the claims adjuster from the quick change came and looked at the car. I don't want to jump around too much, but the adjuster came when the mechanic an myself were not present. I am no engine expert, but I sense I need to become one soon. I at least need to make it through the hearing without being bullied by experts because I have not counsel representing me.
PLEASE HELP

csandste · October 2001

I had earlier suggested a zinc product like STP to get you through to the next oil change. If you think that would be harmful to your converter (doubtful if its a one time shot) you could gradually increase your viscosity.

If you lose a quart of oil through start up smoking, there's no reason why you couldn't dump a quart of 10-30 or even 15-40 into the mix to get you through to the next oil change. I don't think the problem is anywhere bad enough so that you'd have to change your oil.

wtd44 · October 2001

Perhaps your (local) bar association could help you find a lawyer willing to take your case on contingency. That is, you do not pay for the help, but you share in the money should the lawyer win your case for you.

brorjace · October 2001

Well, I thought I'd tell you that I was running a mixture of 5W30 and 10W30 Valvoline Synpower in my car this past spring and early summer (I had a little of both weights on hand). Then, on the 4th of July, I switched over to Redline 10W30. The really warm weather had settled into upstate NY and that's when my '95 Civic DX begins to get phenomenal mileage ... 45+ mpg. When I switched to Redline 10W30 ... which seemed significantly thicker, my mileage actually dropped back down to 43-44mpg ... consistently.

So, I'm switching back to a 5W30 oil ... still Redline ... and I'll see if I can get back those few MPGs ... of course I will have to wait until next summer ... and the components on my car will have aged another 15,000 miles in the interim making even an imperfect comparison difficult.

<:^(

--- Bror Jace

sdayalani · October 2001

if 0w30, 5w30 and 10w30 all exhibit the SAME "30" viscocity during warm weather, but 0w30 exhibits better flow properties during winter, followed by 5w30 and 10w30, why dont manufacturers specify one viscocity all year round, instead of saying that 10w30 should be used during summer and 5w30 during winter?

whats the harm in using 5w30 all year round, since it has the same viscocity as 10w30 during summer and also has the added advantage of flowing better than a 10w30 during winter.

or as a matter of fact, why dont they standardize on 0w30 to be used all year round.
on my mazda protege, i change oil every 5 months according to mfr recommendations, and everytime i have to try and take a guess as to whether 10w30 or 5w30 would be most suitable for the temperature range within the coming 5 month period. this also means that i end up stocking both 5w30 and 10w30, and i'd really love it if that could be avoided.

elitees · October 2001

Hello all,
I have a 2001 Mazda Protege LX 2.0 Liter. Mazda apparently recommends against the use of full synthetic.
The car just turned over 3000 mi. I originally changed the oil at 1600 mi from the factory shipped with Quaker State to Castrol 5w 30.

Should I run like half Reg. Castrol and half Castrol Syntec to get the right blend going?

Is Castrol OK, or should I go with another off the shelf brand?

Thanks in Advance

yurakm · October 2001

You wrote: 0w30, 5w30 and 10w30 all exhibit the SAME "30" viscocity during warm weather...

The oils have the same viscosity when engine is hot. Not the same as warm weather. At much higher temperature, something like 190F.

adc100 · October 2001

If its a rotary-Mazda does not recommend syn. Mobil 1 has done testing and found its brand worked very well in the Rotary. They will defer to Mazda for liability issues and probably would not come running to your aid if the engine failed. I would not use Syntec because it is not a full synthetic oil. They have managed to call it "full synthetic" due to court rulings. If the engine is not rotary my preference would be Mobil 1. You have to look at the warranty issue.

sdayalani: as yurakm said the first number is its 100 F. viscosity grade and the second is its 200 F viscosity grade (approx) the "W" means its tested for Winter conditions. In general the lower the first number the less protection is offered in hot coneditions. Also the greater the range between the two numbers the more viscosity enhancer "goo" needs to be added. This "goo" can break down. More "goo" is needed in conventional oils than syn. Thats why (in my opinion) 10W-30 syn is the way to go.

armtdm · October 2001

Well, I use both a synthetic 10W in 4 cars and a 0W in 1. The 0w30 does seems to get to the upper areas quicker but really not sure. It costs much more for the 0W for me as Amsoil charges about $2/quart more for 0W30 over the 5W or 10W. I find no increase in MPG with the 0W so it is strictly for cold starts. The 0W I use in a car calling for 5W, other 4 all call for a 10W. So much depnds on where you live. If I lived in Northern New England, Upstate NY, WI, MN, SD, ND, ID, NE, MI etc where it really gets cold I would definitely use a 0W30.

mrdetailer · October 2001

I have one that has the same oil recommendations. It's frustrating. I pestered my Mazda mechanic about what oil to use and he is adamant about using only 5W-30. That's what he put in when he changed my oil in July and the average temps were over 100% F. He likes the flow characteristics when the engine is cold much better.

For me, I have changed my interval to every 4 months. I still like 10W-30 for the hot summer months and use 5W-30 for the rest of the year. If I were using pure synthetic I would use the 5W-30 since it is tougher.

In cold months it's a definite advantage. I had 2 4 cyl cars last winter, one with 10W-30, and the other with 5W-30. The lighter weight oil started much easier, and the engine during warm up was much smoother.

I put in a block heater last year, and that allowed me to start the car, scrape off the windows, and have real heat. Love them when it is below freezing.

wtd44 · October 2001

I was contemplating how to describe the slight "lie" that exists on the quality of the "30", based on the number to the left of the "W". You pretty much said it all! Good post #838. (:^>

chikoo · October 2001

bs.
my mazda dealer helps me put in AMSOIL 5w30+mobil1 filter in my engine. He does not refuse nor does he advise me not to do so...and he is a personal friend and biggest dealer in Philly.

sdayalani · October 2001

my oil changes done through my dealer, i always bought my own oil (mobil1) which he said he would put for me.
but once the car went inside the service bay, god knows whether he actually poured mobil1 or ended up using dino pennzoil, thereby pocketing my mobil1 for his own personal consumption.

sdayalani · October 2001

adc100 · October 2001

5 A.M. and I'm here!!!If you can't watch him put in the oil, ask for the empty containers back. Its not foolproof but it'l get 'em thinking. Also Mobil is lighter than other oils. If you have a shiney dipstick you should be able to see the difference. As a matter of fact with my Sentra the dipstick is very shiney and its difficult to determine there is oil in because its so light. I remember that when I had my auto trans replaced after 300 miles (groan) I had changed the oil as soon as I bought the car. I cautioned the dealer that syn oil was in and was hard to see on dipstick. (didn't want them to put 4 more quarts in!!!)

alcan · October 2001

How's the Sentra hangin' in? Was thinking about you the other day while replacing another *&^%$# Cavalier heater hose & pipe. You won the Beretta/Corsica war yet? ;o)

adc100 · October 2001

Good to see you here!!!

The latest: The '94 Corsica I gave to my daughter. After $1400 is hanging in there.

The '92 Corsica got back from her after about the same $$is also hanging in there. (complete with new heater hoses __&^(*(*%&^$). I'm thinking that the water pump at 130K miles is next to go (%$@#%$). I'm plannng on doing it myself (groan). I priced a new one (wish I could remember the brand) at a local autoparts dealer for $45 with a lifetime guarantee- that seems far to cheap. Do you have a recommendation for a brand (and place to obtain)?? It looks like an ugly job and I don't want to do it twice. Should I go with the GM OE??

New Sentra is good with the "Old Remanufactured" auto trans. Just kidding. I'm glad I listened to you on that one.

Take care,
Al

sdayalani · October 2001

i know mobil is a light coloured oil compared to dino, but the thought of checking the oil color on the dipstick after the oil change never crossed my mind. tks, maybe i'll try that next time.

re. asking the dealer to give me the empty containers back, i'm sure he has a bunch of empty containers back there and might just pour my mobil1 into one of them and give me my empty ones back.

wtd44 · October 2001

I sincerely think that when you use synthetic engine oil, you should find a way to leave no doubt about what is going in the crankcase. I would "insist" on using an oil change service that would provide me the opportunity to SEE the procedure as it is occuring. Better yet, I would do it the way I now do all oil changes. I do them myself. I never end up with controversial or bad results.

alcan · October 2001

Al, Murphy says the odds of the seal leaking, the bearing going bad or the impeller spinning on the shaft are directly proportional to the difficulty of getting the sucker back out of there. For anything like that with a screwuppery potential I like to use OEM parts. Try this link for a GM pump. I think their listings only go back to '94 but a call to your local dealer's parts department will let you know if the part number's the same for a '92:

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/

tsjay · October 2001

OK, Guys, I'm giving it a shot... had the oil changed yesterday in my '89 S-10 with 139,700 miles on it, and I had them put in the 5W-30 Max Life that I had bought.

Just have to see how the truck likes it, I guess.

tom

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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