Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

driftracer · February 2005

holdback system - either the invoice price was calculated with holdback, or it wasn't.

Kirstie_H · February 2005

Erm... I believe *I'm* guarding the henhouse, thanks very much.

You might have a look at our Dealer Holdback questions discussion. I simply don't see why holdback comes up at all. If you start negotiating from the invoice you've seen on Edmunds.com or other site, then that's where you start -- $X above or $X below, depending on model and availability.

Don't get caught up in line items. Negotiate a price you can live with, and don't even get started in a conversation about whether they're making profit or not. That kind of conversation will NEVER go well for you.

yojack · February 2005

I traded in my car for a newer car. The dealership was supposed to pay the remaining balance of my trade-in. After weeks of fighting with them to send the pay-off check, they finally did; and I received a letter from the creditor saying my account has been paid in full and is now closed (with the original contract stamped PAID across the top). However, a few days later, I got a call from the creditor saying that my account was NOT closed because the check that they received from the dealership did not clear. The dealership had closed down and filed bankruptcy days after mailing the check!!! Now the dealership is nowhere to be found, nor is the car that I traded! Now the creditor is trying to get me to sign a form giving them permission to give me an "extension" on my account so that this will not affect my credit while they are "working this out" with the dealership. However, they can't even locate the dealership. Something smells fishy. I have a feeling if I sign this document, I am going to regret it, like it is going to re-open my account or something. Am I even liable at this point, or is this the creditor and the dealership's problem? Do they have the right to pursue me for the payment at this point? They had even already mailed the title to the dealership.

mikefm58 · February 2005

WOW, that's a new one, never heard of that happenning. Hang on to all of your paper work and don't sign anything. It could get ugly for you though. As far as the legalities that could come next, I'll leave that up to the experts here.

benderofbows · February 2005

I wouldn't sign anything; in fact, I'd stay as far away from the whole mess as possible. Let them know that you are entirely removed. The dealer took your trade-in, you don't have to pay.

If you received a letter saying the account was closed that means it was closed right?

Call the credit reporting agencies and let them know what happened, you know have them put a notice on your records.

Keep us updated!

driftracer · February 2005

"The dealer took your trade-in, you don't have to pay"

Not accurate at all, unfortunately.

Staying out of it isn't an option, and this is one of the ugliest deals I've seen.

Releasing your trade and signing a power of attorney to let the dealer pay off your loan doesn't release you from the responsibility of paying off the loan, it simply allows the dealer to handle it for you.

I'd contact the local sheriff's department, since the dealership has committed theft - they stole your car, since they didn't pay it off - this is a crime, not just a messed up business practice.

You're a theft and fraud victim - don't sit back and stay out of the road on this one. I wish you luck, this is a tough one.

cadillacmike · February 2005

"By the same token, some customers have trouble understanding why we will devalue a trade in that is "smoked out". A heavy smoker's car can smell so bad we have to take them to the auction.

And, no, NOTHING will get rid of this. Even worse are smelly dogs in a car. "

Right on. I had to pass on several cars that had such a thick smoke odor, that I wouldn't even think of having my wife test drive them.

jasmith52 · February 2005

There probably is no crime here. The dealership and the original poster signed papers for the dealership to take the car and for the dealership to pay off the loan.

The only recourse that you have is for you (or the credit bank) to now sue the dealership to perform on their part of the contract and indeed pay off the car loan.

You'll get a judgement against the dealership in the loan amount (plus fees) but unfortunately you'll have to get in line with a bunch of other creditors. Most likely the dealership has few assets and lots of big bills. That's why they went out of business !

I suspect that this thing will take a year to resolve and that they'll pay back pennies on the dollar.

The question then is - Who gets stuck with the loss ?? Is it you or the credit bank that had the loan ?

As an aside - My wife had a somewhat similar experience when ordering draperies from a small retailer. She paid in full upon order and then the retailer went out of business - no phone number - no forwarding address - nothing. She made sure to file a claim with the state for her refund. Out of the blue a year later she got paid in full for the draperies that she had paid for with the now bankrupt company. The owner had to pay her claim before they could start their next business in order to obtain a business license.

stickguy · February 2005

Yuck. Probably want to touch base with a lawyer, but you are right that the lender is going to make your life miserable, since you are the one that they can lean on. They would just be another unsecured creditor in the BK.

I have friends that had something similar recently. The consigned their car ( a fairly new Infiniti) to a local used car dealer, that had been in the same location for 25 years. Well, one night the owner packed up all the cars and stuff, and disappeared.

So, they go looking for an update, and find nothing. The local police were less than helpful. There seemed to be a disagreement as to whether it was theft, or just a business (bk) issue, and their insurance co. wouldn't prosess a claim unless the police filed a report.

So, they had no car, no money, and no idea where the dealer was. From news reports, his lawyer finally made an appearance, but I'm not sure how it was finally resolved for the people that had cosigned to them ( a fair amount of their business).

cadillacmike · February 2005

Your income does not affect your credit score.

driftracer · February 2005

how is this not a crime? The dealer HAS his trade-in, and paid NO ONE for it...

Getting something for nothing, without the owner's permission to take it for nothing, is theft. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

The same thing happened with a small dealership in our area - the dad spent 40 years building a good business, brought his oldest son in as an F&I guy, and when he'd get the trade-ins, he'd sell them, but not pay off the loans. Ruined dad's business inside of 2 years.

The son got 20 years in prison for theft, fraud, and breach of contract. Same deal here.

Kirstie_H · February 2005

Unfortunately, once bankruptcy is declared, the whole thing gets tied up in a messy legal system (I'm currently experiencing the same with a property title company that ran off with $50K of my/the bank's money).

Sit tight, don't sign anything. You might want to consult an attorney to make sure your interests are protected in any bankruptcy proceedings. As suggested earlier, make sure you write a letter to credit reporting agencies explaining the situation, should the account show up on your credit report.

cadillacmike · February 2005

"If you were selling your own car and you were asking, say 10,000 knowing you would drop a thousand if you needed to. First one to look at the car whips out 10,000 cash.

What would YOU do? "

Well for one, I would be sure to include the owners manual and all the extra kews that I usually insist on getting when I buy a car! I would probably even put new batteries in the remotes. But you can bet your keyster that I wouldn't pass up the sale.

kyfdx · February 2005

Well.. the bankruptcy thing might mean it won't be a crime..

But, my first inclination is that writing bad checks is a felony.. at least in the amount it takes to pay off a car..

If they are incorporated, though... It might just make it a bankruptcy matter.. Like when you pay the travel agent for the cruise.. and then they go out of business, before they paid the cruise company..

And, it isn't the bank's problem... It is the borrower's responsibility to make sure the loan is paid off... and, since the check bounced, that didn't happen..

Where you have leverage? Since that car wasn't paid off, it can't be re-titled... and you still own it.. Go claim that car.. Since it wasn't paid for, and the lien hasn't been released, it is still yours.. Get a re-po guy if you have to.. It is possible the bank can help you with this, since they still have a lien on it..

regards,
kyfdx

fredvh · February 2005

I agree with driftracer. Call the local police department. It is definitely a crime when they attempted to pay off your loan and the checked bounced, but the loan holder needs to call the police department too since they received the bounced check. Unfortunately your name is still on the loan and therefore you ARE still involved. I hope this helps. Please let us know how this progresses. I believe that you have a civil claim also but now that will be complicated because of the bankruptcy. By the way, filing for bankruptcy does NOT exempt one from obeying the law( e.g. writing the bad check).

cadillacmike · February 2005

"They really are using Fortran programs!!!? "

Sure, but not the IRS. FORTRAN is a scientific language, the Infernal Revenue DISservice is probbably using ANSI-68 COBOL.

Now NASA is probably still using FORTRAN:

Gene: "Hey Ralph, did you update the fuel flash point subroutine in the shuttle"

Ralph: "I thought you did it"

Gene: "Oh Oh"

Ralph: "Look at that big fireball"

jasmith52 · February 2005

The original poster did not elaborate but it seems that he bought a new (newer) car and traded in his old one, which was subsequently not paid off.

My question is - Who has the title to the new car ?? Is it in the dealers name ?? Maybe that car is in limbo also ?? Will the car be registered by the dealer. If that's the case in your state then you probably need to worry about that also.

Driftracer - I respectfully disagree with your logic. The question is - Did the dealership intend to defraud the OP or did was it just a normal business bankruptcy. The former is clearly a crime the later is not.

kyfdx · February 2005

I agree... don't sit on your hands..

They don't say how long ago this was.. but, unless that car is locked away in a building, I'd have a wrecker picking it up today.. and let them sort out that mess later.. 9/10ths of the law, etc...

damish003 · February 2005

Boy, what a mess that one will be. Many years ago, when I worked indirect auto financing for GMAC, we had a pretty similar situation. It's quite clear that the bank is looking for the easy way out. Dealer being backrupt means the bank won't see a dime for years, if ever. However, they have you. If your agreement with the bank is like most, then much as I hate to say it, you're still on the hook. The bank can likely play hardball with you, where your only recourse is with the dealership principals. You may be one of many in a long line of owed creditors, as it were, since at this point, they owe you for your trade. The bank trying to get you to sign an extension is what you think it is, simply an acknowledgement that you still owe them for the loan. They may not really want to pursue much with the dealer on this case, unless they have many more dealings with them on other things.

I'd strongly recommend consulting an attorney on this one, especially before signing anything. Keep us updated if you would.

-Dan-

yojack · February 2005

I purchased the car in December 2004. It is an '04 and had 12,000 miles on it. It is being financed through another bank and not the dealership. I'm beginning to think it was intentional because they gave me the run around for a whole month before they sent the payoff check. When they finally sent the check (two months after purchasing the car), they "conveniently" went out of business and file bankrupt less than a week later.

kyfdx · February 2005

Do you know where the car is?

qbrozen · February 2005

I agree with what some others have said. First, call the police. Explain the situation, then find out if you are within your rights to go reclaim your car. You don't want to do anything that could be construed as illegal yourself. The lender on your original car, however, has to reclaim that title they sent. And I would be pretty angry with them for releasing the title before the check clears. What the heck were they thinking??

driftracer · February 2005

since you still OWN your trade, I'd go pick it up.

qbrozen · February 2005

But his lender said they sent the dealer the title, so, technically, doesn't the dealer now own it? They have a title that says they do.

mikefm58 · February 2005

Sorry jasmith, but I don't see your logic. Writing a check without sufficient funds to back it IS A CRIME, bankruptcy or not. If I did that and then went before a judge and said, "Gee judge I'm sorry, I've never been any good at balancing my checkbook." He'd still throw me in jail until I could make good on the check. It's a crime regardless.

jasmith52 · February 2005

YoJack:

Just for clarity, I'll restate my concerns about your new (2004) car:

There may be some risk here that the bank for the new car loan does not have the title to your (2004) car. In other words you should check with your (carloan) bank that they actually have a title to the new (2004) car. Otherwise you are paying for a car that you may never actually own.

You need to verify that the bank has the title. Tell them what you have been through to motivate them to search their records.

yojack · February 2005

They sent the dealer the title, but was able to "cancel" it, or whatever they do to stop it, or at least that is what the lender told me yesterday. FYI, I am a "she".

kyfdx · February 2005

Do you know where the trade-in is now?

yojack · February 2005

Oh, I see what you're saying now. I hadn't thought about that. I will definitely get to work on that. Thanks.

yojack · February 2005

I have no idea where the trade-in is, and the creditor has not been able to locate anyone involved with the dealership. The creditor has been telling me that they are working to get this resolved; however, I'm not sure what they mean by that.

imidazol97 · February 2005

There was a home builder in Northern Kentucky (Cincinnati area) doing something with checks and getting them into his own account. I don't recall he got any jail time though. Money talks. I think they did sell his BMW and a part of the judgement; but I don't think they got his Florida home.

KYFDX: Do you remember this? Isn't this your area?

kyfdx · February 2005

I'd do a drive-by and look for your car.. Since you have money at risk, it could be worth your time.....

kyfdx · February 2005

30 years for bank fraud...

Also took down his father, sister, closing agent at his company and two bankers...

But, this was persistent fraud over three years or more...

It was very sad.. Mostly caused by greed and arrogance...

cadillacmike · February 2005

"There probably is no crime here. The dealership and the original poster signed papers for the dealership to take the car and for the dealership to pay off the loan."

WRONG!

The fact that they issued a bounced check is Larceny in most states. The fact thet they absconded with your car that they did not pay off is grand theft auto.

Was this a new or used car "stealership"??

719b · February 2005

if the woman with the trade-in has a document from the bank informing her that the loan is paid off, is she still liable?

Kirstie_H · February 2005

Please keep in mind that we can't give legal advice on these boards, so information you're getting here should be taken as ideas for next steps rather than professional counsel.

dbauer · February 2005

your income CAN affect your credit score, because it reflects on your DTI (debt-to-income) ratio. the higher your DTI, the lower the score goes.

cadillacmike · February 2005

DTI is not on your credit report. The banks will compute this based on your debts whch are on your dreadit report and your income which you provide to them (and if you are buying a house will have to verify for them).

I'm quite sure that none of the credit beureaus have any idea of what who my current employer is not to mention what my salary is.

The credit reports track your debt level and how well you pay it off, not how much money you make or where you make it. It's the lenders that compute the DTI ratios.

The past two cars I bought Aug 04, Jan 05), my income never came into play and the dealer referenced my "excellent" credit when trying to sell me on a rate that was nearly 1 point HIGHER than I already had from one of my banks (not "my bank" but you know one where I was a regular customer).

That said, income CAN matter depending on how close someone is to the margins of various brackets, etc.

dbauer · February 2005

on a transunion report, there is a column for "pay available", and the figure is in percentage form.

'pay avail: 34%'

when this figure goes to 0%, the score drops.

im not saying you CANT BUY with 0% pay available, but the rest of your report has to be seamless to do so.

danf1 · February 2005

The pay available on a transunion report indicates how much of the respective credit lines are available, not how much income is available. Cadillacmike is right on this one. Income is computed by the bank, not the credit bureaus.

dbauer · February 2005

ok...that explains why the score drops when it reaches 0...lol.

scanty · February 2005

If the lender closed my account and sent me the original contract with a big "PAID" stamped across it, and then came back to me with this, I'd tell them that it sounds like a "your problem" and not a "my problem."

driftracer · February 2005

what in the world is a lender (A BANK) doing releasing the title on a vehicle held as collateral on a loan until the check cleared???

Why would a bank float the loan and not worry about the check, unless it was an electronic transfer?

This baffles me.

For instance, my mother in law gives every child, grandchild, niece and nephew (yes, even me and my wife, both over 40) $25 for their birthdays, always in a check. I deposited the check into my account, in a bank I've had a bulletproof account with for 6 years, and they held the deposit until her check cleared - there's over $5k in my checking account, my MIL and her husband are worth half a million, but they held a $25 check for a week until it cleared...

WHY would a bank release the title to a $20-30-40k vehicle without having cash in fist?

steine13 · February 2005

Jack, 1st of all, please post the VIN. My carfax runs out tonight (it it hasn't already) and it's been long enough that a retitle *might* show. If it does, so much the better: It's not your car anymore.

"After weeks of fighting with them to send the pay-off check, they finally did; and I received a letter from the creditor saying my account has been paid in full and is now closed (with the original contract stamped PAID across the top)."

It sounds like you're in the clear. I'd love to hear their att'y explain in court how this document doesn't really mean anything.

"They had even already mailed the title to the dealership."

Who are these guys??? Bozo's Savings and Pizza?

I think this is great for you... the title is just a piece of paper, doesn't mean much without the car, except of course that they have shown themselves to be negligent. That's not going to help them in court, so they might not go.

Think about it: Had they NOT mailed the title (and sent you the PAID letter), you would be very clearly out the car AND the money; you'd owe the balance and wouldn't know where to get the car... much better this way.

The nice thing is that THEY are out the money and the car; YOU are out nothing at this point. What they will do is mess with your credit to exert pressure, but that's no big deal if you're reasonably well off and not planning to buy a house this year. And you can fight it, so it won't be a permanent bad mark.

I *think* you need a lawyer, if only for an educated opinion.

Of course, all of OUR opinions here are free, and worth twice that!

The "permission to give an extension" slip is a great idea on their part to make you admit you still have some liability in all of this. Forget it.

Good luck to you, and pretty please, come back and tell us how it worked out in the end. This is the best story to come through here in a while...

-Mathias

rroyce10 · February 2005

....... Drift, we need to get you out more ..

Mathias and Kirstie_h are dead on the money on this one ... Don't Sign Anything.!

You can call the Cops, Sheriffs department, Highway Patrol, FBI, CIA, DHS, the FDA, maybe even the AAA .. but this isn't a criminal offense, it's a civil suit and they have nothing to do with it - they'll listen, but they have nothing to do with it ..

Kirstie makes a good point on the follow-up .. once it hits the BK court, get your name on the list and hold your breath for the next 9/12/15 months .. the good thing is: "You have the title" and it's *locked, *loaded and *signed off ~~ let the lender bounce off the walls for the next 300/400 days, no matter what they say - it's just words and you are now "out" of the loop ..... Whew, did you miss that bullet.!

Why did the lender send it.? .. they could have covered their floorplan, they might have done lots of business with them, maybe 60/200 cars a month, who knows .. I buy vehicles in 15+ states and I could drop a bad check tommorow and get the title --- but I won't ...l.o.l....

You might talk with a lawyer, but I wouldn't sweat this - just make sure he's a contract lawyer .. I actually bought my 3rd store this way: "On the Courthouse" steps, so to speak ..... sleep well my friend, you could be standing in line with 127 other people right now and waiting til' Easter of 2007 ...................... ;^}

Terry.

driftracer · February 2005

I was thinking with my politically correct portion of my brain - I mean get out the baseball bat and start looking up addresses in the phone book...

rroyce10 · February 2005

... **I mean get out the baseball bat and start looking up addresses in the phone book...** ....l.o.l...

Terry.

cadillacmike · February 2005

"The pay available on a transunion report indicates how much of the respective credit lines are available, not how much income is available. Cadillacmike is right on this one. Income is computed by the bank, not the credit bureaus. "

One more item to be aware of here as a creditee.

Do Not EVER let your balance on a credit card go over 80% of the available limit (which would show that "pay available" less than 20%). That will drop your score "like an anvil dropped on jupiter".

If you do a "zero % balance transfer" to neutralize interest paments, be mindful of this. What I did on one card was to nearly max it out at 0%, then i called the bank and asked for a credit limit increase to make the number around 85%%. They said yes, and within 2 months of payments, i was back below 80% of limit.

Bottom line, know the cutoffs, and you can make the system work for you.

cadillacmike · February 2005

" *think* you need a lawyer, if only for an educated opinion.

Of course, all of OUR opinions here are free, and worth twice that!"

"Twice nuthin is still nuthin, that math son" - Foghorn Leghorn...

So far every has given excellent advice, which is well worth its cost! :-)

I don't think that jack has the title, I believe that in his post he mentioned that the bank sent it to the dealer - and then "cancelled" it, whatever that means.

As to criminal or civil, well that depends on whether they sent that check before they declared bk. If so, it's likely criminal in most states.

jack, please keep us posted here, and DON"T SIGN ANYTHING until after you get a lawyer.

jdavidson · February 2005

I found an awd 05 santa fe about 120 miles away for $400 below consumer reports wholesale price. The consumer reports price includes holdback and rebates.

Tried to get two local dealers to match, both said no, since it was below their cost. Found a 3rd that agreed to match. My only other cost is taxes and tags. I had them fax me the total cost of the car broken out by line item.

I put down a $500 credit card deposit. They called my insurer for insurance cards. I'm supposed to pick up the car tomorrow at 2.

One of the dealers that refused to match wants me to call her either way...she figures either she'll sell me a car or she wants to figure out how they're selling me the car at that price.

Who thinks I'm going to get the car for $400 below cost? My wife thinks it's going to be "sorry, this price was never approved"...

thanks,
jd

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