Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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first of all, a manufacturer wont repeal the francise contract over a $250 repair, only to lose 1000 sold units a year. THATS why it will never happen.
secondly, it may be bad business to you, and to others, but that doesnt mean the price of tea in china changes.
a manufacturer revoking a dealer's franchise over not doing warranty work is akin to a mortgage lender foreclosing on a house because you smoke cigars in it.
lastly, ddelise...
did he say WHEN you would get an appointment? no. you may be put off for days...maybe even weeks.
Not a Yankee myself, but was tempted to respond in kind to this post (from a Texan in Philly, right?) until I caught myself and decided to thank you instead for the Texan joke.
To change to subject somewhat (but still staying on topic): what is the general opinion about having a used car sold by a dealer inspected by a mechanic? I am talking about a fairly new vehicle, 2-4 y.o. but not under manuf. warranty. In the past, I always had used cars I bought inspected, but they were either older or bought from an individual. To provide more details, I've used this independent shop for several years for service, repairs and inspections, they are very good and thorough and charge $50-70 for an inspection.
It's always a great idea to have ANY used car checked out by a mechanic prior to purchase. Use someone you know and trust, and the $50 you spend may save you from making a critical mistake, even on what you may think is a risk-free vehicle.
Some dealers move a ton of used cars, so it's unlikely they spend tons of time with each one.
But, to me, $50 is well worth the piece of mind. I have done this (on a car under warrantly), and they found a few issues that needed to get resolved. Nothing major, but still stuff that needed to be done.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
You understand, of course, that this and the CCBA thread help me to avoid wasting the local dealers' time in person or by email/phone, since I am not quite ready to buy yet
No kidding that one complaint about a dealer not performaing a warranty repair won't in and of itself cause the loss of a franchise agreement. However, continued and obvious breach of contract over a period of time, with documented complaints by customers to the manufacturer will probably ensure some consequence to be paid by the dealer.
Finally, I made the phone call, and you were not on the conversation. As I said multiple times, the gentleman on the phone was extremenly cordial and helpful, and was ready to schedule an appointment with me right then and there. After I said I did not need the appointment now, he said to call back when I was ready, ask for him, and he would take care of me right away.
There was so insinuation that the appointment would occur in May of 2007. I did not feel the need to go through the exercise of actually scheduling an appointment and then cancelling (and I won't, don't worry anyone). It was easy to tell that he was very helpful and grateful for the business.
Finally, I think you are confusing bad business practices with illegal business practices. Breach of contract is illegal business practices; charging $89.95 for a oil change would be bad business practices.
I am just now on the cusp of the new car payment vs. cost to repair old car tilting towards the new car at $600 per month - and it won't be a Volvo.
"The progressive era was neither progressive nor an era. Discuss amongst yourselves".
Seriously, I have no animosity towards anyone, so let's move on.
And I do have another question, related to service in general, so probably for driftracer to answer.
It seems like service departments use standard time blocks to charge time for work done. It seems to me that many times the work is done quicker than the standard time. If this is the case, is it possible for a tech who works an 8 hour day, to actually book/charge more than 8 hours of work? Or does it work out that 50% of the time the estimate is under, 50% it is over, so the net is 0?
Scenario: You (the car owner) have had trouble starting your car and have had to jump-start it a couple of times. You bring [non-permissible content removed] to the sop and tell the guy what's going on. The technician checks the charge and hold on your battery and notes that the battery is fine, but discharged.
He discovers you need an alternator. The service advisor looks up the time and the part, determining that it'll cost $100 for the alternator, plus 1.5 hours for labor. You OK the job.
Tech #1 is new, and it takes him 3 hours to replace your alternator. You still get charged 1.5 hours, he gets paid for only 1.5 hours, but he worked for 3 - he should learn to do the job better...
Tech #2 has been a master tech and has 12 years experience. He's done 200 alternator replacements on cars similar to yours. It takes him 45 minutes to do the job, but he gets paid for 1.5. He can grab another job and do that one, too.
I've seen experienced techs log 20 hours in an 8 hour day. Of course, if the guy has 4 jobs come back, then we no longer call him "experienced", we call him "Comeback Carl", and start back-charging him for tim, or he just fixes the car at no charge to the shop because he didn't do it right the first time.
The next question most people have is if it only took the experienced guy 45 minutes, why do I still get charged 1.5 hours? Very valid question.
First, your car is out quicker, and it was handled by a guy who I know won't make your car come back. You can rest assured that an experienced person worked on your vehicle. It's also an industry standard that Tech #2 beats and Tech #1 can't yet meet.
Thanks, its bright silver and of course it has the Hemi!!
"And strongly recommended is a far cry from must. Strongly recommended is a bone to the selling dealership - must is an absolute with no recourse.
What "bone" is that?
"and that the dealer cannot turn you away because you did not buy the car there. I asked this specifically and pointedly"
OK- They may not turn you away, but where your vehicle lines in the "pecking order" of when the service is performed. As been already stated, I wouldnt apply this to moving to another state or emergency service while on vacation, etc.
"As I mentioned earlier, I was nervous about buying a car from one place and asking to have it serviced at another, and it turned out my fears were unfounded (the point I am trying to make here today). This is good information for consumers to understand so that they feel confident and comfortable making their purchase of their new car"
And the information about why its good idea to give the local dealer the first chance
to earn your business is good, too.
To avoid further reprimand, I too am done on this topic. I just found it interesting what my warranty booklet said in the midst of this thread. (and it was new information, which kirstie said was permitted.)
And I appreciate ddelise's time in his research, your research too answered a lot of my questions. I think someone mentioned that ddelise's research does not prove anything, but I think it's darn good enough.
Martin thread broke the record for the most,"o.k I'll stop but only after one more post" posts.
I would also like to second my appreciation for ddelise's research into the matter. I also felt reluctant to bring my Mazda Zoom Zoom to a dealer that I did not buy from. The reason being the dealership I bought from had a service dept. that didn't have very good service... and did not seem very well organized.But, from now on I won't give it a second thought in going to a different dealer.Good day all.
Yippee, a new topic......
When I was a svc mgr in Oregon (no more naming dealerships for me!), we did quite a few Chevy big block (454) replacements in older motor homes - lots of folks from that area regular spent winter in Quartzsite, AZ - never figured that out, been there, looks like the dark side of the moon, but whatever.
I had a "heavy line" (engine/drivetrain) technician with three apprentices and the team could swap a motor in under 8 hours. Ted had 42 years of experience, made $33 an hour, and paid three techs out of his pay. Hi steam regularly logged 220 hours a week.
Normal time for this job was 22-24 actual, book time was 20-22, and our "menu" pricing was 22 hours for the tech, but the customer only paid for 18 - kind of a "motorhome special". People were really pleased that they could get a new GM 454 installed, with new hoses, belts, and tuneup items, for under $3k.
This old guy heard that we had quick turn around time, so he tried us on, by the cantankerous old guy told me that he'd check on his rig three times a day, and make sure "those guys back there weren't leaning on it and eating sandwiches".
I told my old mechanic about the guy, he kinda chuckled, and got started. They were done with it on the first day. At about 9:00 the next morning, the old guy came into the service drive, and was going to check with me, then go look at his rig - I called back to the senior tech and told him the old guy was here. He had one of his apprentices fly under the rig with a creeper and a hammer and start lightly banging on stuff under the RV.
The old guy had a pleased look on his face, that they were hard at work on his RV, and I told him he could come back and pick up his RV at 6-7 that night. He couldn't be happier...
I feel bad that we fooled the old guy, but we had FOUR guys on the job, and I didn't want a knock-down, drag-out with a retired railroad worker.
When a host says "move on," they mean drop it, change the subject, no more posts about it, not even just one, start with something new, agree to disagree, meditate and feel the inner peace take over.
About 20 posts are missing this morning. Boy, you're all quite fortunate that I got up early this morning and had the time to do it instead of just closing this topic for awhile.
Carry on.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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"Cannot say if it was caused directly by their bad service, but I personally know of two dealers who lost their franchises after exhibiting poor customer service. A Ford dealership in New York which repeatedly failed to provide proper service for my fathers Thunderbird, and Magic Mountain Cadillac that provided screwed up service on my 1988 Cimmarron. Both were under new management the following year, The first selling Pontiacs and the second still selling Cadillacs. "
(From the CTS forum in Jul 2004)
So, i guess dealers have been revoked by mfrs in the past, but it is not a common occurrance.
I've seen dealers give up a franchise before. The group that I work for recently got rid of two franchises mainly because their sales were non existant, but I'm sure the dealers who took them over are telling customers that the manufacturer pulled it from us.
Actually, only one of them was replaced, so I guess nobody wants a free Isuzu store.
Can any body point me to a good event team that will come into my dealership and bring their own guys to do one of those super sales with the mail and inserts, etc?
Kind of hard to pull out a month whith 3 guys when you are used to having 7.
Thanks for the help!
Same crew of guys each time also...
Rich
Since my tastes in vehicles tend toward the geriatric, do people *really* pay $2k for fancy wheels, or is that crazy??
Thanks
Andy
"The wings and fart cans too !!!!! "
That's too much - LOL
According to my reading of the code (the note following 26 USC 6050I (d)(2)) the answer to this question is no.
It seems to me that 26 USC 6050 I is intended to prevent the use of cash payments for money laundering and disposal of illicitly garnered funds, so to require the dealer to file a Form 8300 on anyone who walks in with a cashier's check from a loan settlement, or from legitimately collected funds deposited in a financial institution, etc., makes no sense, hence the exception for checks drawn on an account associated with a buyer referred to in the note I referenced above. After all, banks are subject to the same sort of reporting requirements (under 31 USC), so if the check is drawn on the buyer's account with the financial institution, any funds supporting the check would already have to have been reported by the bank if they exceeded the $10,000 cash limit.
How about it, dealers? Do you guys file one of these on every cashier's check that crosses your desk, even if it's identified as a loan settlement? I am only asking because I just had one of these filed on me for a loan check my bank had made out to the dealer with explicit lien-issuance instructions over the endorsement space. I think this is a waste of time and stupid, and like anyone else, I certainly don't welcome any additional attention from the IRS.
I just refinanced my house last week and took money out. I deposited a substantial check - well over the $10K limit - without a question from the bank.
Terry.
As robr2 and rroyce10 said, it would be money laundering if there were cash involved, but with a cashier's check the money has to be traceable. That's why, I believe, they put the exception into the statute that it doesn't apply to monies associated with an account at a financial institution.
Do you have a different legal analysis? If so, how is mine flawed?
Or is this just a 'CYA' thing dealers do? Seems to me that's more the case. It's not that big a deal, really, but like I said, no one needs more scrutiny from the IRS, and it seems to me I might get it. The dealer is covering his butt, but possibly at my expense.
Another question: how do most small financial institutions transmit monies if not by cashier's check? Do you file an 8300 on everyone who doesn't finance through your corporate lender?
I did a similar deal a couple years ago, only for $40k, and I didn't have one of these things filed on me, at least not that I was told.
And I can't remember the last time I provided a cashiers or certified check to a dealer as payment, my last few cars were a small MC deposit and that was it.
Heck, with the offshore check scams nowadays, I'd be more afaid of a "certified" check than a normal check from a local bank.
No trace, could be South American gun running money or East Side crack money for all Dan knows...
I'd do the form, too - if you have a problem with signing the form and having me verify your identity, we probably shouldn't be selling you a vehicle.
Cadillacmike is right on. I am more concerned about cashiers checks than personal checks. With a personal check, the providing bank has all of your identifying information. As drift said, with a cashiers check there is no trace on the money thereby making it my responsibility.
When you see people from dealerships going to jail on Dateline or any other news program, it is usually the F&I person. We are the ones with ALL of the legal responsibility at the dealership, so naturally a good F&I person will cover his or her rear end.
You can avoid this by financing the vehicle. If you want to pay it off in a short period of time, you are free to do so. But if you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't worry about it. Also if I told you that while you are trying to buy a car that makes me guilty of "structuring" which is the same as laundering in the governments eyes. That is why I just do the form and keep my mouth shut about it.
In Texas, for instance, I had to be a state-licensed insurance agent to even OFFER or talk about credit life or disability insurance, not to include selling it as well. I had to be bonded (personally) to sell the insurance.
You can bet, when licensing, bonding, and overseeing state agencies are involved, a good F&I person will not only protect the dealership, but themselves, as well.
I went to an advanced F&I management training course in Boise, ID in 1998 - sponsored by Universal Underwriters. Cool course, learned a lot, great time.
One of the guys I was in class with had just been promoted (a week earlier) to F&I after selling Jeeps for 5-6 years. I congratulated him, and he said it wasn't by choice, and he'd make the best of it. Weird response, I thought, so I asked him what he meant.
He had sold a new Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited to a 44-45 year old single guy, well to do, owned his own business, etc. They got along great, and he dropped the new owner off with the F&I guy and took the Jeep to detail.
After the buyer got out of F&I, he and the buyer walked just around the corner, but stopped a few feet from the F&I office and looked at an alarm system display in a cabinet.
Evidently, the new buyer had bought a nice warranty, credit life, disability, exterior/interior/undercoating, etch, GAP, and a few photos of the F&I guy's family..he bought EVERTHING.
While the salesman and customer were 6-8 feet away, but out of sight and not detected by a young sales manager who stopped the F&I guy as he was walking out of his office...the sales manager asked "How did that (insert buyer's last name) deal go?".
The F&I manager, a boisterous guy, announced loudly "I put that (insert Richard Pryor/Eddie Murphy curse word here) in THA WEEEEEEDDDSSS!"
"That (insert expletive) moron paid $2600 for a $550 warranty, bought choke and croak, mop and glo, I got $800 for etch ($20 cost, by the way..), a $750 GAP policy and I think I could have sold him my shoes if I wanted - what an idiot!"
Exact words....the salesman and customer heard it all...as did several people sitting in the adjacent service lounge, the GM, and a few other people working deals in the showroom.
Everyone in the showroom knew which customer he was talking about.
The F&I guy was fired on the spot, leave NOW, not tonight. The customer left, and the GM called the dealer group attorney - the GM called the new owner right after he got home.
They gave him the Jeep and all his "extras", except that he wouldn't need choke and croak with no loan, and $100,000 to settle before the lawyers tore it up and it made the news.
I can see why the new F&I guy/former salesman would be a little weirded out by the whole experience.
Do you mean the Jeep at NO CHARGE plus $100K? Really!!!
What is choke-n-croak?
Did the GM go over any other past deals to see if the F&I guy packed the extras onto some others or was that just water under the bridge for those buyers? I'm just curious-not trying to make a point.
Great story. But i would think a successful business owner be a little more screwd as to what items are of value to him and which aren't of value at price offered?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,