I agree with you 100%. Anybody who doesn't give the first salesman a chance to price match is more than a jerk. The best description for a person who does this can't be written here. I don't buy cars that often but I just bought one in April and I did just that, gave the first guy a chance to price match and he did. The second guy was via an internet quote so I didn't have to run around to get his price and I don't feel I wasted very much of his time anyway. Had the first guy not matched the second guys price I would have been gone. I'm talking about $800 here and since you know what I'd do for $1000 (post 13253) the second guy would have gotten half of this (his choice) plus the dog and some goldfish if he wanted them.
What I don't fully understand is why doesn't a salesperson, once they see that the buyer is truly interested in buying and not just trying to amuse themselves by test driving cars, give the customer their best price. Are you trying to make the car buying experience painful at the risk of losing a sale by allowing the buyer to walk away to see if they can do better. With all the information out there now, it doesn't take very long to be somewhat knowledgeable. I do realize that some of the information out there is not always correct and is misleading but isn't it worth a shot when you know the customer is right, to not let him get away. I believe $235 was the price difference here and you said that you could have worked with him over this difference. Was it worth it to let this guy get away if you could have done better with your price especially with what you feel you had invested in this deal?
You come across as an intelligent guy, would you consider changing the way you handle this type of customer?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Add to that, these are the people that when you meet them in public, you know where they work and what they do. They will buy you a drink at the bar, and talk about their business to you. They are always selling. Think Glen Gary Glen Ross. ABC- Always Be Closing. Even when they are making idle conversation, they are trying to earn your trust. They have an endless supply of business cards with them and pass them out at any given opportunity.
They belong to country clubs and the like. They market themselves as much as their cars. They keep in touch with you almost to the point of being annoying. But when you are ready for your next car, their names come to mind immediately. These people also stay at one store so you will know where to find them when you are ready.
when it comes to giving a great price - we can give what we think is a fair price based on transaction values here, and another dealer, who may NEED to hand a car away to hit numbers, can beat us by quite a bit, if need be. besides, any dealer can beat another price by $100,$200 or even $500 if they REALLY wanted to...and sometimes, to steal a customer from another area that would normally go to another dealer, its worth it (with their badge and license plate frame on your car as advertising and all)
its not that cut and dry...and i've given very aggressive prices to people who bought elsewhere because they just needed to get rid of a car, or had it in stock, or a variety of other reasons...it happens...
.. when I get a business card that actually belongs to the guy giving it to me.. Most of them have another name marked out and their name written in ballpoint above it...
I don't know why I ask..... but, 95% of salespeople tell me they have only worked there for 90 days or less..
So when a customer "factors" his/her price from the invoice down, they should also figure in the level of service they desire (adding what that good service SHOULD be worth) The cost money to hold that Blue truck with the black leather interior..for three months until the customer finally decided to get off his couch and come into the dealership? I will be retired when it happens, but I really want to see the day when the customers have to order the car...there will be demos..but you will pay MORE for them...not less...the customers will service the car with whatever service center they choose, as the place they pick-up and buy them from won't HAVE a service center. When the customers are cut loose from the nasty dealers and all that nasty dealer profit.
Be careful what you wish for, it may come true. and lastly....
Have you ever wondered why a Lexus dealer treats his customers so well? Wonder why the High roller gets treated so well in Vegas? Wonder why the fellow in the penthouse suit of the Luxembourg got the ring side tickets FREE to the big fight?
He paid all the money for something else...and they EXPECT the rest.
You can demand by demanding, threatening, and begging....I have found that paying works just as well. If you don't want to pay...then you get what you pay for.
Doesn't condone lying, cheating or misleading, but it does cover the endless posts I see...re: the dealers profit. To heck with profit. Hopefully the service will match the charge for the service. That's all I expect from a store of ANY product. But that's just me.
I've got to agree with thene on this one. Keep in mind that dealers are very concerned about their CSI surveys. If you appear to be upset with your dealings, then we are thinking in the back of our minds that we would rather not sell you a car because you are going to destroy us when the survey comes in.
I don't really know how to say this any other way, but factually. Salespeople on average don't make enough money to afford the vehicle you just bought. 15% of the salesman in this country sell 70% of the cars. Some make HUGE money...not very many...but some...oh and what is huge money to a car salesman? $100,000. I have never made that and I have been in the business for 28 years. I don't call the shopper back ever few hours to find out if he has bought a car and what I can do to put him in ours....I don't promise what I can't deliver and then blame the lack of keeping that promise as "well, my manager made a mistake"...I don't tell someone: "before you take less than 10,000 for that Yugo, make sure you call me, ok?" I don't have "the exact vehicle you requested, right here!! when do you want to stop down"?...when I don't HAVE the vehicle. I don't blame others when it's my fault the wood trim for your Freestar didn't get ordered. Not that you care but I will make around $45,000 this year. I stayed in this business for a really strange reason. I wanted to be a car salesman that you could trust. For this I THOUGHT I would get paid, but the customers would rather "just give me your lowest price..I'm gonna shop three dealers..well...for any car salesman...they have heard this before. And just
No one put a gun to my head and made me stay selling cars. I will stay until I retire with the hope that I can help some young couple not put their future in hock over a car or truck. That some retired schoolteacher isn't saddled with a truck she can't really use for "this really low 60mo lease".
But wait...you asked why there are so many 90 day sales persons.
Because the guy that was trotted out to that 90 day wonder. A fellow sitting at that desk on the showroom floor, sells 20 cars a month and makes 90,000 a year. So the young person thinks...wow, I can do that. He doesn't know that as soon as a managers job comes up, that 20 car guy is NOT going to be on the floor anymore. The 20 car guy doesn't want to deal with manager changes, and quality issues with the cars he sells, or the service manager that doesn't understand that his customer isn't obtuse, but hard of hearing or that the engine used in that Chevy was a poor design to begin with or that the customer base doesn't really care if HE is there in a year....they just want the lowest price.
The 90 day wonder sells all his friends, relatives and a few folks, like yourself that stumble upon him. Then he looks at that paycheck and realizes that he could make just as much working 9-5 as a clerk and moves on.
If I could find a car dealer that didn't change philosophy every three or four years, I would manage. In twenty-eight years I haven't found one. No one listens to the customer. They tell you what they want, and if WE told them what we REALLY want, that would be nice too...but our industry doesn't really listen...parts of it do, but only for a while...then it's on to the next "business model" "floor management system" or "customer control module"
Why don't they listen? Well the last round of of "Family/Employee/what we pay" sale says it all. Before the sale you could buy a Chevy for the same amount...a Ford truck leased for a LOT less than it does..and the sale amount was really the same as well...I would suppose Chrysler would say the same...but the "SALE" brought Chevy a 41% increase in June sales...the attendant Ford numbers are forthcoming but I would guess from MY sales this month that they are going to be huge. The price didn't change. The deal, if you will, actually got worse but the customers came in droves. They will flock to the Toyota CLEARANCE sale in December (there is no money or incentive given to the dealer...just one heck of a lot of advertising by Toyota)
The dealer/manufacturer thinks...wow, SHEEP!
So Rollie shakes his head and figures out how to break it to this young couple that the Mitsubishi that they didn't have to make payments on for a year is worth about $5000 less than they owe..that the Chevy truck the consumer rolled $4000 of inequity into is worth $8500 less than is owed and that the 60 month lease the nice Ford dealer across town put you in is...well, you aren't getting any new vehicles for a while.
I really have the answer to all the confusion and frustration in our industry.
It is, however, like everything for sale. I won't give it away. If you buy a car, truck or SUV from me, you will get it free of charge, but if you wish to understand it, in any other way....you will need to write out a rather hefty check. You won't be able to find it on the NET...or in a "How to Buy Your Next Car" book. It's not mystical. But it is hidden in plain sight.
i guess the explanation as to why the salesman couldn't simply give "his best price" out of the shoot is if he did that every time, he would starve. as a case study, lets say a customer comes in and i price a vehicle to the point where i profit $1000. if that same customer goes and shops, he will certainly find a dealership willing to beat my price in order to make a sale. then again, no matter what price i quoted, he will still be able to beat my price. for instance, if the 2nd dealership he goes to quotes him a price that only shows a $200 profit, the customer will think he's getting quite a bargain. then again, if he comes back to see if i'll beat it, i probably will. depending on other factors, i may be willing to show a loss of $1000 on his new car. of course, the customer will definately get the short end of that stick when his trade is dealt with and his financing is done. the bottom line is this....that salesman really wont make much of anything unless he's got a front end profit of at least $1500, so he would be a fool not to ask for it. he could certainly sell the car for much less, but he would have to shift the profit from the front end to the back end. the dealership usually would rather have the profit on the back end anyway, because they will usually not pay the salesman any of that money. from the salesman's perspective, profit will be made either way for the dealership, but if he makes it on the front end price, he will get paid. he wants to make a living as much as you want to save a few dollars. for the record, i have sold "smart internet educated" shoppers that shopped many dealers end up with 5000 - 8000 total gross deals, while at the same time i have seen elderly people that simply go into the local dealer and buy the first car they like end up getting true bargains. all is not always what it seems.
i've been here nearly 2 years - but this is not a career for me. i enjoyed helping people, and being honest, and letting people know how it really works - that we all dont sneak, steal, lie or cheat - and i learned a lot myself in the process...
however i am tired of the hours, tired of the pay, and tired of being treated as i am by people. i dont know how many times ive been "beaten" by the schmoe down the street for $100, and i never hear back from anyone. all my honesty, knowledge, and time, has gone for naught.
and so, im leaving the business - but will continue to respect those who do it. i dont care about invoice prices, factory to dealer incentives, holdback...i care what i have to spend, and that i can get the car i want for what i have to spend.
the car business is like every other business - we are here to make money. but because our cost is known to the general public, people haggle, knowing that "hidden incentives" will keep us afloat...no worries - the dealers are making tons of money! all the salespeople have rolex watches and gold chains and drive bimmers...
oh well, never got the rolex, the bimmer, the vacations...but i got an education - and i helped others...but im done now.
as far as all the "employee pricing" promotions that are going on.......
gm/chevy/saab etc- cut all their rebates the day they went to that system. on some models, they cut them in half. i think they actually stayed the same on the malibu though. i dont think any real gm employees actually bought a vehicle while they were doing this.
ford/lincoln/volvo etc- cut some of their rebates by about $500 when they went to this. several models didnt change. not a bad deal.
chrysler/dodge- from what i could tell, they took a set amount off the sticker price of each vehicle. i doubt VERY seriously if this move had anything at all to do with true employee pricing. unless, maybe chrysler/dodge doesnt really have a true employee pricing system already set up.
"I believe $235 was the price difference here and you said that you could have worked with him over this difference. Was it worth it to let this guy get away if you could have done better with your price especially with what you feel you had invested in this deal?"
You make a good point, it just happens to be mine as well. Here's what I mean. "... especially with what you feel you had invested ..." It is because of what time and effort I had invested that I feel I earned the extra gross.
It's not the fact the customer should feel obligated to buy from me, it the fact that once he does buy from me, he should know he will be taken care of. He has to be sold on the whole picture of things. Remember, price is a one time thing.
Also, this is not some run-of-the-mill type of car or dealership type we're talking about here, and you guys know that. It's not like this guy is going to buy the car from me and me forget who he is in a month or two, like you might see at larger domestic dealerships.
jmonroe, You asked me if I would consider changing the way I would handle this type of customer in the future, and I guess I would have to say no.
I did everything right ... showed differences in cars with options, built value, etc. If I go into every deal scared that he will leave and call other dealerships and eventually buy at another dealership w/o giving me a shot to match, then all I will do is piss my gross away and lose credibility. Yes, lose credibility.
The minute I become an "old car dog" and ask a customer "What's it gonn a take blah, blah, blah," the customer realizes you're really not any better than the next guy.
I appreciate the "intelligent" comment, and you come across as a very smart, informed consumer. However, after reading what I just posted, you may change your mind.
But as I see it, well ... that's the way I see it.
I think you have just confirmed what I have always thought. No matter what deal you get you could have done better if you spent more time shopping. Just how much time and how far are you willing to go to get it is up to the customer. I don't blame sales people/dealers for trying to make as much as they can, it's just business. Car dealers don't owe us a thing, we owe ourselves a thing. What's the old saying, "caveat emptor" or whatever it is, it sure does apply to buying a car !! All that we car buyers are trying to do is keep as much money in our wallets/purses as we can when we leave the dealership.
As I've said before on another post:
"no matter how good of a deal we might have been able to make, it is ALWAYS good enough for the dealer or the dealer wouldn't have made the deal."
After all, it is the dealers car, doesn't he decide how much he wants for it, do we car buyers really think we can dictate price? Any car buyer who walks away thinking he just killed the dealer is probably the guy who just got beat up the worst. Look how long some dealers have been around, 30,40 50 years, nobody can be getting killed that long and still be around.
Thanks again for the confirmation.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
"I don't know why I ask..... but, 95% of salespeople tell me they have only worked there for 90 days or less.."
Check out my previous post (#13254).... Most people that get into car sales just can't hack it, for one reason or another. As I said, there is a good amount of turnover. These are not the people I was referring to when I said $35k-40k per year.... Those are salespeople that stay in the business and are "middle of the road" salespeople. The dropouts are probably making the equivalent of minimum wage. Like someone else said, they realize they could make the same money as a clerk and not work as hard and work far fewer hours.
Hi, wanted to get the salesperson's perspective on extended test drives. I'm in the market for a new car, and at this stage, have a number of different cars in mind. While I've researched them to death on paper, it's time to try them out in the real world. Perhaps not surprisingly, I've found the typical 15-20 minute test drive isn't enough most of the time.
While some salespeople/dealers will let you take a car out for an extended drive (even for the morning or afternoon - which is great!), I certainly understand when the store can't (or won't).
My problem is, however, how do I get the same sort of time behind the wheel? If I schedule 2-3 test drives, won't that be a major pain in !@# to the salesperson (especially those that have to accompany me)? Is there a way of doing this, without sucking up a lot of a salesperson's time?
the salesperson doesnt usually come with you on an extended test drive - the dealer puts you out on a dealer plate, and gives you a temporary registration. then you drive it around as you wish, and bring it back at the time agreed upon. just go in and ask - tell them you need a bit more time with the vehicle to be sure it is what you are looking to do...
Sorry, I hadn't been clear - I've come across some dealers who can't/won't allow extended drives (e.g. not enough cars, not their "policy"), etc. What do I do then - particularly when there's not another dealer nearby to go to?
I don't think any differently about you after reading your reply. You still seem like a pretty sharp guy to me and the type that I wouldn't mind doing business with on the rare occasion when I buy a new car. I just hope, for your sake, that you will be able to ride out the ups and downs of your business and the people you have to deal with (both customers and management) on your way up.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
then you gotta see if you can do one WITH a salesperson...im sure if you ask to take it for an hour, they should be somewhat flexible - though, company policy is company policy - maybe they had a bad experience or two in the past, and are only like this to protect themselves...
another way is to rent one - if you find a place that rents out the vehicles you are looking it, rent the one you are most interested in for the day - some people do that when they really want to put it through its paces...
Before you spend $$$ on a car, the best extended test drive is to go to one of the rental car agencies and rent the model that you are interested in. The cost of weekend rentals is relatively inexpensive ($15-30 per day) and if you make some calls, you can get most models.
Mike, you can read about the car in magazines and you can read the reviews here in Edmunds. You can also go to the dealer and sit in the car for a long time to see if you like how it feels.
Then you can make an offer contingent on a decent test drive. Yes, a specific dollar-amount offer that you stand behind.
Then the dealer may let you take the car on a 15-20 mile test drive. You should not expect anything more.
Just a word of caution on renting to try out the vehicle. We rented a vehicle that we wanted to buy, and it was nothing like the one we did buy. MOST rental cars do not come with the higher end options you would want to try out, or, even the engine size. If I had depended on the rental to judge the vehicle, I would have run to the nearest horse dealer..
i dont think you read my whole post. either that, or i wasnt clear enough with my point. what i was trying to get across was that the slaesman in question was trying to get the profit on the front end of the car deal in question so he would be paid on it. i was also pointing out that, a lot of the time, very smart, very educated people that do a tremendous amount of shopping and get the absolute "best deal" end up getting absolutely ripped on the back end of a deal. as a street smart self educated guy, i cant tell you how satisfying this is. usually, the absolute "best deal" is obtained by a customer that buys exactly the vehicle he/she wants from a reputable home town dealer at a fair front end price. like i said, i've seen the "little old lady who lives down the street" walk in, pick out what she wants in about 15 minutes, doesnt argue any pricing, and walk out with an absolutely great car deal. i dont mean it would be cheaper to go into a dealership, settling for the first car you find and paying sticker. all i'm saying is you dont always get even an average deal by price shopping when it comes right down to it. frankly, i can quote you any price i think you want to hear. sometimes, too much education is a bad thing. it's kind of like knowing just enough karate to get your butt kicked.
wow. that was kinda long winded and self indulgent. so....you're the only one that is honest and has this whole thing figured out. how bout these simple tips...
1. dont EVER do a 60 month lease on ANYTHING. 2. dont buy a car you know will sink like a brick in value (deawoo, mitsubishi, jaguar, saab, kia, hyundai, isuzu, suzuki) unless you intend to keep it until you have paid for it and you in no way think of it as an investment. 3. do your own financing. 4. do not buy the extended warrantee or the etch. 5. never ever buy anything with any "dealer adds" of any kind. 6. never go for the "tire warrantee". 7. buy exactly what you have your heart set on as long as you can afford it. 8. dont try to get a new car every 1-2 years.
dont ever finance longer than 60 months on a purchase. some banks are now offering 84 months with strong credit. i hear chrysler financial is offering 96 months to anyone with a pulse. i cant wait to get the guy 1 year deep on an 8 year note on a freeking ram quad cab with a hemi trying to trade his rig in on something sensible. if you cant afford the 60 month payment, get something that costs less. you'll save yourself lots of heartache.
It is part of PAG so yes Volvo is considered High Line although I guess you would call it the bottom end of the high line market when compared to the Aston Martin, Land Rover and Jaguar.
i always thought volvo as kind of "middle of the road". even in ford's line up, i would consider volvo lower rent than land rover, jag, and lincoln. nicer than mercury, ford and mazda. volvo platform shares now with vord/mercury and has an upcomming model with a sticker under 25000.
Some time ago when I was between jobs, I sold cars at a very reputable local new car dealer. At least 6 out of 10 prospective buyers were upside-down on their current car loan. Additionally, many only wanted to put down $500 or less toward the purchase of a new car - which is ludicrous.
I would strongly suggest financing for no longer than 48 months, with 36 months preferable. Use the old-fashioned method of buying a car - save up your money until you have sufficient down payment, either including your trade-in or the down payment by itself.
Also, if you intend to trade cars every 3 to 5 years, make sure you buy a car with better than average resale value. This generally implies the Japanese marques (mainstream Honda and Toyota are the best), and only a few USA marques. However, if you keep your car longer than 8 years (which many people are doing these days), the depreciation rate becomes rather irrelevant. In these instances, you might be just fine with a Hyundai (which are improving by leaps and bounds with each new model release) or others.
I have always wondered about the whole "certified used" program that many dealers have. From the outside, it looks like just an easy way to sort of roll in the price of an extended warranty into the initial sales price--from what I can tell, that is essentially what "certified used" means you get.
I'm in the market for a new car later this year or early next year, and I'm considering buying a gently used 05 model, particularly if I choose a Chrysler minivan, which as a domestic brand I know is supposed to have painful depreciation. I've looked at inventory for a few of my local Chrysler dealers and notice they have a whole passel of gently used 05 Town & Countrys--where gently used is under 20K miles, sometimes significantly under. Out of this passel of cars, only one or two of them will be "certified used"--sometimes there are other vans with a lot less mileage than the "certified" van.
What's the deal with this? Why does a dealer "certify" one still pretty-new van and not another? Should I read from this that if it isn't "certified," it's probably because they suspect something might be wrong with it? One of my in-laws is married to a woman whose family owns a Toyota dealership here in Central Texas, and he has told me that in general, if the dealership CAN certify the car, they will, and I should not look at used vehicles that aren't certified.
Hello! Last night I got really close to buying a car....
The sticker was $23, but after reading all the guides, looking up black book and other market info I could get my hands on - I figured the car was worth $21 - the sticker was $23. It needed 4 new tires, which I specified I would purchase, they would put on. So the cost to me of those tires I figure will be about $500. My last offer was 21 and they didn't go any lower than 22. They let me walk and gave me my $500 deposit back that I had put down so they wouldn't sell the car over the weekend when I was out of town.
It's a nice car. Should I just suck it up and pay the extra $1000? That would make my total cost (including the tire purchase) 22,5 + tax. More than I think it's worth but maybe it's just market conditions and there's not many 2003 models used for sale. High black book on this car is 16,3.
I don't mind the dealer making a profit but I don't want to pay for his next diamond ring. What do you guys think??
this is an easy one. the reason why some are certified and some arent is due to the original cost of the particular car to the dealership. if they paid too much for it, once they add the cost of certification, the resulting price they would have to get for it would be prohibitive. if, however, they paid less than market value for the car, they would be able to certifiy it, add the cost of certification to the original cost, sell it at a respectible price and still make a profit. the big draw to a certified used vehicle isnt necessarily the extended warranty. the big reason to consider it is if you have a borderline credit rating, you can get a subvined rate when using the manufacturor's finance company. for example, if you had so-so credit and bought a new caravan and financed throguh chrysler financial, you might qualify for 12.9% interst where as on a c.p.o. unit through the same bank, you might qualify for a 6.9%. this example isnt using real numbers, but you get the idea. make any sense?
Just curious, but how did you get access to the Black Book?
Have you checked with Terry on Real-World Trade-In Values just to confirm your findings?
Personally, I usually don't pay more than $2-$3k or so over auction value. So if that black book is correct in this instance, I wouldn't be breaking $19K on said mystery car.
you really should double-check that number with Terry, though.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
GM Canada and Access Toyota websites have a link to it... you put in options and KMS. So that would give you what your trade-in was worth, might be a bit more at auction.
I tried terry but he never responded... i figured he didn't have Canadian data.
I'm sure I understood your post 13273. What I'm saying is, a customer has to do their best to get the best deal that they can. Front end, back end,up,down, or side ways !! If he is getting ripped on the back end this is not the best deal that can be made. Isn't this why car buyers have to be informed ? From your post, your words, " i was also pointing out that, a lot of the time, very smart, very educated people that do a tremendous amount of shopping and get the absolute "best deal" end up getting absolutely ripped on the back end of a deal. as a street smart self educated guy, i cant tell you how satisfying this is.". Again, isn't this why car buyers have to be informed ? As for your comment as to how satisfying it is to you to see customers getting ripped, this tells me and anyone else reading this, it's this kind of dealing/thinking that has given your business the reputation that it has. When you say "very smart, very educated", you must mean in a field other than car buying. As as you have already confirmed, smarts in one field doesn't necessarily translate to smarts in another field. Again, (I have to keep saying this so that it is clear that I mean INFORMED as it relates to car buying) if you are an informed car buyer you aren't going to get "absolutely ripped" you'll probably get just a "little bit ripped" when you buy a car. You guys are much better at this than the car buyer is, you do it all day long. You know what the real costs are, we're just guessing.
As for your words: like i said, i've seen the "little old lady who lives down the street" walk in, pick out what she wants in about 15 minutes, doesnt argue any pricing, and walk out with an absolutely great car deal. i dont mean it would be cheaper to go into a dealership, settling for the first car you find and paying sticker. all i'm saying is you dont always get even an average deal by price shopping when it comes right down to it. I think you said two different things here, 1. doesnt argue any pricing. 2. not paying sticker. I think what your saying here is, cars are never sold at sticker. I guess you always take a very, very modest amount off because even "little old ladies" know that nobody pays full sticker. I hope you don't think anybody believes that you can get anywhere close to an average deal (whatever that is) without doing at least some price shopping.
As for your comments about too much education being a bad thing, from where I sit you can never, ever have to much of an education when it comes to buying a car.
When it comes to buying a car I'd prefer to deal with guys like bmw3434, rolson1, toyotaken, or thenebean (oops, can't go to this guy, he doesn't do this anymore, seems that he doesn't have the stomach for this business anymore and that's a shame). It's these guys and guys like them that are the only ones that me or any other car buyer should be dealing with. They are also the only ones that have a prayer of turning the negative image of the car buying process around.
Unless I've misunderstood again what you have written, but I doubt this could happen again, I don't think I would want to do business with you. I know this will probably break your heart, ruin your day, cause you to go home early, and who knows what else but that's how I feel after reading you posts.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
OH, Canadian, eh? Sorry, didn't make the connection with the name.
WELL... that makes it tough ... I could see Subies being in more demand up there, too. HOWEVER, $22K seems like a lot for a used Subie to me. Even if this is pretty well optioned, what was original purchase price? $27K? $28K? The vehicle is almost 3 years old now. They just don't hold their value THAT well.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
No Probs.... the 2005's are MRSP at $34, but I've heard you can get $4k off that - not sure if that's just in the states though.
It's just got the standard options, plus limo tinting on the back windows. It is getting darn close to 3 years on the road - September. She did the % of what they expect at 24 months for leasebacks, at 55% of wholesale it came in at just under $20k. Then she started saying so I dont' think that 21-22-23 is really out of range. Well hold on you just rounded up 3k!!!
" Unless I've misunderstood again what you have written, but I doubt this could happen again, I don't think I would want to do business with you. I know this will probably break your heart, ruin your day, cause you to go home early, and who knows what else but that's how I feel after reading you posts. "
And I thought I was the only one who felt like that......
without you identifying the car, the condition, and the mileage, this is a tough one to answer. i'll put it like this. if you figured out exactly what book is, you can bet the dealer paid that amount, tops, for this car. there are incidental legitimate fees incurred by the dealer on any new car. if the car in question is a foreighn luxury car, these costs can get quite high. refusing an offer of 4000 over book doesnt make much sense.
perhaps you understood my post then. i'm not suggesting to go in and buy whatever for whatever price you are offered. i was just pointing out that knowing a little about the car business is just as dangerous as knowing nothing. as far as car people who are out to change the image of the business, count me out. i dont make nearly as much money acting like that. i will be honest and open in this forum, and im as honest a man you will ever meet......outside of business. when it comes to providing for my family, however, all's fair and i hope you can understand my vantage point and not hold it against me personnally.
Question for you......Do you think salesman should use tactics like "Tell the customer anything they want to hear over the phone to get them in to the show room"?
Like........I'm calling to offer $1K more than I did yesterday because I think I over valued my trade. Salesman says...Fair enough, we can do that. So I go in and he starts negotiating again.....grrrrr
Or how about....I'm calling to see if you have model x in red with options a, b, & c in stock. Sure we do come on in. After showing up, finding out they never had it.
the personal comments. You can talk about auto sales & salespeople in general, but personally-directed comments won't be tolerated, and (again) put this discussion in jeopardy of being marked the dreaded "read only."
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
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I agree with you 100%. Anybody who doesn't give the first salesman a chance to price match is more than a jerk. The best description for a person who does this can't be written here. I don't buy cars that often but I just bought one in April and I did just that, gave the first guy a chance to price match and he did. The second guy was via an internet quote so I didn't have to run around to get his price and I don't feel I wasted very much of his time anyway. Had the first guy not matched the second guys price I would have been gone. I'm talking about $800 here and since you know what I'd do for $1000 (post 13253) the second guy would have gotten half of this (his choice) plus the dog and some goldfish if he wanted them.
What I don't fully understand is why doesn't a salesperson, once they see that the buyer is truly interested in buying and not just trying to amuse themselves by test driving cars, give the customer their best price. Are you trying to make the car buying experience painful at the risk of losing a sale by allowing the buyer to walk away to see if they can do better. With all the information out there now, it doesn't take very long to be somewhat knowledgeable. I do realize that some of the information out there is not always correct and is misleading but isn't it worth a shot when you know the customer is right, to not let him get away. I believe $235 was the price difference here and you said that you could have worked with him over this difference. Was it worth it to let this guy get away if you could have done better with your price especially with what you feel you had invested in this deal?
You come across as an intelligent guy, would you consider changing the way you handle this type of customer?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
They belong to country clubs and the like. They market themselves as much as their cars. They keep in touch with you almost to the point of being annoying. But when you are ready for your next car, their names come to mind immediately. These people also stay at one store so you will know where to find them when you are ready.
its not that cut and dry...and i've given very aggressive prices to people who bought elsewhere because they just needed to get rid of a car, or had it in stock, or a variety of other reasons...it happens...
-thene
I don't know why I ask..... but, 95% of salespeople tell me they have only worked there for 90 days or less..
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Be careful what you wish for, it may come true. and lastly....
Have you ever wondered why a Lexus dealer treats his customers so well? Wonder why the High roller gets treated so well in Vegas? Wonder why the fellow in the penthouse suit of the Luxembourg got the ring side tickets FREE to the big fight?
He paid all the money for something else...and they EXPECT the rest.
You can demand by demanding, threatening, and begging....I have found that paying works just as well. If you don't want to pay...then you get what you pay for.
Doesn't condone lying, cheating or misleading, but it does cover the endless posts I see...re: the dealers profit. To heck with profit. Hopefully the service will match the charge for the service. That's all I expect from a store of ANY product. But that's just me.
It has been my experience so far that car sales makes us all thespians.
whether it is good for anything else, i cant say :-P
-thene
No one put a gun to my head and made me stay selling cars. I will stay until I retire with the hope that I can help some young couple not put their future in hock over a car or truck. That some retired schoolteacher isn't saddled with a truck she can't really use for "this really low 60mo lease".
But wait...you asked why there are so many 90 day sales persons.
Because the guy that was trotted out to that 90 day wonder. A fellow sitting at that desk on the showroom floor, sells 20 cars a month and makes 90,000 a year. So the young person thinks...wow, I can do that. He doesn't know that as soon as a managers job comes up, that 20 car guy is NOT going to be on the floor anymore. The 20 car guy doesn't want to deal with manager changes, and quality issues with the cars he sells, or the service manager that doesn't understand that his customer isn't obtuse, but hard of hearing or that the engine used in that Chevy was a poor design to begin with or that the customer base doesn't really care if HE is there in a year....they just want the lowest price.
The 90 day wonder sells all his friends, relatives and a few folks, like yourself that stumble upon him. Then he looks at that paycheck and realizes that he could make just as much working 9-5 as a clerk and moves on.
If I could find a car dealer that didn't change philosophy every three or four years, I would manage. In twenty-eight years I haven't found one. No one listens to the customer. They tell you what they want, and if WE told them what we REALLY want, that would be nice too...but our industry doesn't really listen...parts of it do, but only for a while...then it's on to the next "business model" "floor management system" or "customer control module"
Why don't they listen? Well the last round of of "Family/Employee/what we pay" sale says it all. Before the sale you could buy a Chevy for the same amount...a Ford truck leased for a LOT less than it does..and the sale amount was really the same as well...I would suppose Chrysler would say the same...but the "SALE" brought Chevy a 41% increase in June sales...the attendant Ford numbers are forthcoming but I would guess from MY sales this month that they are going to be huge. The price didn't change. The deal, if you will, actually got worse but the customers came in droves. They will flock to the Toyota CLEARANCE sale in December (there is no money or incentive given to the dealer...just one heck of a lot of advertising by Toyota)
The dealer/manufacturer thinks...wow, SHEEP!
So Rollie shakes his head and figures out how to break it to this young couple that the Mitsubishi that they didn't have to make payments on for a year is worth about $5000 less than they owe..that the Chevy truck the consumer rolled $4000 of inequity into is worth $8500 less than is owed and that the 60 month lease the nice Ford dealer across town put you in is...well, you aren't getting any new vehicles for a while.
I really have the answer to all the confusion and frustration in our industry.
It is, however, like everything for sale. I won't give it away. If you buy a car, truck or SUV from me, you will get it free of charge, but if you wish to understand it, in any other way....you will need to write out a rather hefty check. You won't be able to find it on the NET...or in a "How to Buy Your Next Car" book. It's not mystical. But it is hidden in plain sight.
...and so it goes
I'm lucky that I work for a dealer that hasn't changed it's philosophy in almost 60 yrs.
My advice is to get out of low line sales and into hi line sales.
(Generally) better working conditions and better earnings potential.
i've been here nearly 2 years - but this is not a career for me. i enjoyed helping people, and being honest, and letting people know how it really works - that we all dont sneak, steal, lie or cheat - and i learned a lot myself in the process...
however i am tired of the hours, tired of the pay, and tired of being treated as i am by people. i dont know how many times ive been "beaten" by the schmoe down the street for $100, and i never hear back from anyone. all my honesty, knowledge, and time, has gone for naught.
and so, im leaving the business - but will continue to respect those who do it. i dont care about invoice prices, factory to dealer incentives, holdback...i care what i have to spend, and that i can get the car i want for what i have to spend.
the car business is like every other business - we are here to make money. but because our cost is known to the general public, people haggle, knowing that "hidden incentives" will keep us afloat...no worries - the dealers are making tons of money! all the salespeople have rolex watches and gold chains and drive bimmers...
oh well, never got the rolex, the bimmer, the vacations...but i got an education - and i helped others...but im done now.
sorry for rambling...
-thene
gm/chevy/saab etc- cut all their rebates the day they went to that system. on some models, they cut them in half. i think they actually stayed the same on the malibu though. i dont think any real gm employees actually bought a vehicle while they were doing this.
ford/lincoln/volvo etc- cut some of their rebates by about $500 when they went to this. several models didnt change. not a bad deal.
chrysler/dodge- from what i could tell, they took a set amount off the sticker price of each vehicle. i doubt VERY seriously if this move had anything at all to do with true employee pricing. unless, maybe chrysler/dodge doesnt really have a true employee pricing system already set up.
feel free to cuss / discuss me.
You make a good point, it just happens to be mine as well. Here's what I mean.
"... especially with what you feel you had invested ..." It is because of what time and effort I had invested that I feel I earned the extra gross.
It's not the fact the customer should feel obligated to buy from me, it the fact that once he does buy from me, he should know he will be taken care of. He has to be sold on the whole picture of things. Remember, price is a one time thing.
Also, this is not some run-of-the-mill type of car or dealership type we're talking about here, and you guys know that. It's not like this guy is going to buy the car from me and me forget who he is in a month or two, like you might see at larger domestic dealerships.
jmonroe,
You asked me if I would consider changing the way I would handle this type of customer in the future, and I guess I would have to say no.
I did everything right ... showed differences in cars with options, built value, etc. If I go into every deal scared that he will leave and call other dealerships and eventually buy at another dealership w/o giving me a shot to match, then all I will do is piss my gross away and lose credibility. Yes, lose credibility.
The minute I become an "old car dog" and ask a customer "What's it gonn a take blah, blah, blah," the customer realizes you're really not any better than the next guy.
I appreciate the "intelligent" comment, and you come across as a very smart, informed consumer. However, after reading what I just posted, you may change your mind.
But as I see it, well ... that's the way I see it.
bmw3434
Thanks frnkrzzo,
I think you have just confirmed what I have always thought. No matter what deal you get you could have done better if you spent more time shopping. Just how much time and how far are you willing to go to get it is up to the customer. I don't blame sales people/dealers for trying to make as much as they can, it's just business. Car dealers don't owe us a thing, we owe ourselves a thing. What's the old saying, "caveat emptor" or whatever it is, it sure does apply to buying a car !! All that we car buyers are trying to do is keep as much money in our wallets/purses as we can when we leave the dealership.
As I've said before on another post:
"no matter how good of a deal we might have been able to make, it is ALWAYS good enough for the dealer or the dealer wouldn't have made the deal."
After all, it is the dealers car, doesn't he decide how much he wants for it, do we car buyers really think we can dictate price? Any car buyer who walks away thinking he just killed the dealer is probably the guy who just got beat up the worst. Look how long some dealers have been around, 30,40 50 years, nobody can be getting killed that long and still be around.
Thanks again for the confirmation.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Check out my previous post (#13254).... Most people that get into car sales just can't hack it, for one reason or another. As I said, there is a good amount of turnover. These are not the people I was referring to when I said $35k-40k per year.... Those are salespeople that stay in the business and are "middle of the road" salespeople. The dropouts are probably making the equivalent of minimum wage. Like someone else said, they realize they could make the same money as a clerk and not work as hard and work far fewer hours.
While some salespeople/dealers will let you take a car out for an extended drive (even for the morning or afternoon - which is great!), I certainly understand when the store can't (or won't).
My problem is, however, how do I get the same sort of time behind the wheel? If I schedule 2-3 test drives, won't that be a major pain in !@# to the salesperson (especially those that have to accompany me)? Is there a way of doing this, without sucking up a lot of a salesperson's time?
Any thoughts, suggestions, etc. much appreciated!
Mike
-thene
Thanks,
Mike
bmw3434,
I don't think any differently about you after reading your reply. You still seem like a pretty sharp guy to me and the type that I wouldn't mind doing business with on the rare occasion when I buy a new car. I just hope, for your sake, that you will be able to ride out the ups and downs of your business and the people you have to deal with (both customers and management) on your way up.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
another way is to rent one - if you find a place that rents out the vehicles you are looking it, rent the one you are most interested in for the day - some people do that when they really want to put it through its paces...
good luck!
-thene
Unless you want an exotic ...
Then you can make an offer contingent on a decent test drive. Yes, a specific dollar-amount offer that you stand behind.
Then the dealer may let you take the car on a 15-20 mile test drive. You should not expect anything more.
1. dont EVER do a 60 month lease on ANYTHING.
2. dont buy a car you know will sink like a brick in value (deawoo, mitsubishi, jaguar, saab, kia, hyundai, isuzu, suzuki) unless you intend to keep it until you have paid for it and you in no way think of it as an investment.
3. do your own financing.
4. do not buy the extended warrantee or the etch.
5. never ever buy anything with any "dealer adds" of any kind.
6. never go for the "tire warrantee".
7. buy exactly what you have your heart set on as long as you can afford it.
8. dont try to get a new car every 1-2 years.
how's that?....i didnt even charge for it.
dont ever finance longer than 60 months on a purchase. some banks are now offering 84 months with strong credit. i hear chrysler financial is offering 96 months to anyone with a pulse. i cant wait to get the guy 1 year deep on an 8 year note on a freeking ram quad cab with a hemi trying to trade his rig in on something sensible. if you cant afford the 60 month payment, get something that costs less. you'll save yourself lots of heartache.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would strongly suggest financing for no longer than 48 months, with 36 months preferable. Use the old-fashioned method of buying a car - save up your money until you have sufficient down payment, either including your trade-in or the down payment by itself.
Also, if you intend to trade cars every 3 to 5 years, make sure you buy a car with better than average resale value. This generally implies the Japanese marques (mainstream Honda and Toyota are the best), and only a few USA marques. However, if you keep your car longer than 8 years (which many people are doing these days), the depreciation rate becomes rather irrelevant. In these instances, you might be just fine with a Hyundai (which are improving by leaps and bounds with each new model release) or others.
Its already here. The S40 starts at under $24k, as a matter of fact.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm in the market for a new car later this year or early next year, and I'm considering buying a gently used 05 model, particularly if I choose a Chrysler minivan, which as a domestic brand I know is supposed to have painful depreciation. I've looked at inventory for a few of my local Chrysler dealers and notice they have a whole passel of gently used 05 Town & Countrys--where gently used is under 20K miles, sometimes significantly under. Out of this passel of cars, only one or two of them will be "certified used"--sometimes there are other vans with a lot less mileage than the "certified" van.
What's the deal with this? Why does a dealer "certify" one still pretty-new van and not another? Should I read from this that if it isn't "certified," it's probably because they suspect something might be wrong with it? One of my in-laws is married to a woman whose family owns a Toyota dealership here in Central Texas, and he has told me that in general, if the dealership CAN certify the car, they will, and I should not look at used vehicles that aren't certified.
What do y'all think about this?
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The sticker was $23, but after reading all the guides, looking up black book and other market info I could get my hands on - I figured the car was worth $21 - the sticker was $23. It needed 4 new tires, which I specified I would purchase, they would put on. So the cost to me of those tires I figure will be about $500.
My last offer was 21 and they didn't go any lower than 22. They let me walk and gave me my $500 deposit back that I had put down so they wouldn't sell the car over the weekend when I was out of town.
It's a nice car. Should I just suck it up and pay the extra $1000? That would make my total cost (including the tire purchase) 22,5 + tax. More than I think it's worth but maybe it's just market conditions and there's not many 2003 models used for sale. High black book on this car is 16,3.
I don't mind the dealer making a profit but I don't want to pay for his next diamond ring. What do you guys think??
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Have you checked with Terry on Real-World Trade-In Values just to confirm your findings?
Personally, I usually don't pay more than $2-$3k or so over auction value. So if that black book is correct in this instance, I wouldn't be breaking $19K on said mystery car.
you really should double-check that number with Terry, though.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I tried terry but he never responded... i figured he didn't have Canadian data.
Mystery car is a 2003 Subaru Outback
frnkrzzo,
I'm sure I understood your post 13273. What I'm saying is, a customer has to do their best to get the best deal that they can. Front end, back end,up,down, or side ways !! If he is getting ripped on the back end this is not the best deal that can be made. Isn't this why car buyers have to be informed ? From your post, your words, " i was also pointing out that, a lot of the time, very smart, very educated people that do a tremendous amount of shopping and get the absolute "best deal" end up getting absolutely ripped on the back end of a deal. as a street smart self educated guy, i cant tell you how satisfying this is.". Again, isn't this why car buyers have to be informed ? As for your comment as to how satisfying it is to you to see customers getting ripped, this tells me and anyone else reading this, it's this kind of dealing/thinking that has given your business the reputation that it has. When you say "very smart, very educated", you must mean in a field other than car buying. As as you have already confirmed, smarts in one field doesn't necessarily translate to smarts in another field. Again, (I have to keep saying this so that it is clear that I mean INFORMED as it relates to car buying) if you are an informed car buyer you aren't going to get "absolutely ripped" you'll probably get just a "little bit ripped" when you buy a car. You guys are much better at this than the car buyer is, you do it all day long. You know what the real costs are, we're just guessing.
As for your words:
like i said, i've seen the "little old lady who lives down the street" walk in, pick out what she wants in about 15 minutes, doesnt argue any pricing, and walk out with an absolutely great car deal. i dont mean it would be cheaper to go into a dealership, settling for the first car you find and paying sticker. all i'm saying is you dont always get even an average deal by price shopping when it comes right down to it. I think you said two different things here, 1. doesnt argue any pricing. 2. not paying sticker. I think what your saying here is, cars are never sold at sticker. I guess you always take a very, very modest amount off because even "little old ladies" know that nobody pays full sticker. I hope you don't think anybody believes that you can get anywhere close to an average deal (whatever that is) without doing at least some price shopping.
As for your comments about too much education being a bad thing, from where I sit you can never, ever have to much of an education when it comes to buying a car.
When it comes to buying a car I'd prefer to deal with guys like bmw3434, rolson1, toyotaken, or thenebean (oops, can't go to this guy, he doesn't do this anymore, seems that he doesn't have the stomach for this business anymore and that's a shame). It's these guys and guys like them that are the only ones that me or any other car buyer should be dealing with. They are also the only ones that have a prayer of turning the negative image of the car buying process around.
Unless I've misunderstood again what you have written, but I doubt this could happen again, I don't think I would want to do business with you. I know this will probably break your heart, ruin your day, cause you to go home early, and who knows what else but that's how I feel after reading you posts.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
WELL... that makes it tough ... I could see Subies being in more demand up there, too. HOWEVER, $22K seems like a lot for a used Subie to me. Even if this is pretty well optioned, what was original purchase price? $27K? $28K? The vehicle is almost 3 years old now. They just don't hold their value THAT well.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It's just got the standard options, plus limo tinting on the back windows.
It is getting darn close to 3 years on the road - September. She did the % of what they expect at 24 months for leasebacks, at 55% of wholesale it came in at just under $20k. Then she started saying so I dont' think that 21-22-23 is really out of range. Well hold on you just rounded up 3k!!!
And I thought I was the only one who felt like that......
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Like........I'm calling to offer $1K more than I did yesterday because I think I over valued my trade. Salesman says...Fair enough, we can do that. So I go in and he starts negotiating again.....grrrrr
Or how about....I'm calling to see if you have model x in red with options a, b, & c in stock. Sure we do come on in. After showing up, finding out they never had it.
This was just recently used on me and co-workers.
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