Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

isellhondas · May 2004

Took in two Suburbans in the same day. A lot of people dumping or trying to dump their gas hogs.

Pretty hard when we make our usual calls and get laughed at. The gas pigs are bringing thousands below what the books say.

jasmith52 · May 2004

For what it's worth, the national media reports are to the effect that gas prices have had no impact on selling SUV's. Looking at the sales numbers a little finer and you see that the biggest SUV's like Hummer, Excursion, Suburban etc are getting the biggest rebates and incentives. Analysis is that people are moving downweight (only somewhat) in their choice of SUV.

With respect to manual versus automatic transmission - With the advent of lock-up torque converters in automatics these days and 4 and 5 speed overdrive automatics, the difference in mileage between an auto and a stick is small compared to days of yore. Therefore I don't see a major comeback for manual transmissions. Maybe a few more will be sold but not anywhere like in the 80's when lots of people had them.

michaellno · May 2004

Yep, I'll agree with you. My sister and BIL just traded in their '02 Honda Odyssey EX-L (with DVD) for a black '04 GMC Yukon Denali, onto which they promptly stuck 20" rims. And, they live in San Diego!

Both my parents and I are appalled at this decision -- not that they can't afford it, but geez, they're looking at $70-80 to fill the tank!

Their reasoning? My sister just had her third child in December, and with the 2nd row captains chairs in the Ody, they couldn't haul enough stuff around with the 3rd row in its upright position. Now, with the Denali, all three boys (ages 6, 3 and 5 months) can fit in the 2nd row, which gives them the option of using the 3rd row for either cargo or grandparents.

I paid $21 yesterday for a tank of gas for my Ford Focus ($2.099/gal) and thought it was way too much! I cannot even envision a $75 tank of gas.

adawaal · May 2004

Only $2.099 a gallon? Where do you live? Last time I filled up here in Chicago it was up to $2.50!

butchbr73 · May 2004

$1.86 for regular in tennessee....

audia8q · May 2004

The gas station next to the dealership is $2.05 for reg. unleaded and $2.19 for super....

Oddly enough the only SUV that we are showing a slowing trend in sales is our smallest one that gets the best MPG....the Navigators and Aviators are still selling well....go figure.

jasmith52 · May 2004

Some of these articles may be of interest:

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/gas18e_20040518.htm

http://www.detnews.com/2004/insiders/0405/18/c01-155946.htm

Although this article seems to indicate that at least big SUV sales are going down

http://money.cnn.com/2004/05/17/pf/autos/suvs_gas/index.htm

ramped · May 2004

Thanx for the interesting stories on gas prices/SUV sales. It may not have hit the dealers yet, but common sense says that consumers aren't going to be interested in dumping large dollars into the gas tank unless they have to. Most of these things are primarily used to haul a kid or two to school.

Also, you're right in that there really isn't a large fuel economy savings between a manual and the new automatics. I am more interested in just rowing the gears. Haven't done it in a while and miss it.

I know you get killed on the trade, though. But, you don't have to do the automatic transmission service, which can be pricey over the the lifetime of the vehicle. Maybe manual vs. automatic wouldn't be a bad thread, huh?

jasmith52 · May 2004

Well lets play with some numbers:

Lets say you can afford a Tahoe/Suburban/Hummer whatever and make payments of between $500 to $1000 a month.

Well if you drive 12k miles a year and get a lousy 12 miles per gallon then you'll need around 1000 gals of gas a year. Well even for gas at $2.50 a gallon that's only $208 per month in gas costs.

The gas cost is much less than the payment. Therefore even at outrageous gas prices these trucks are still selling. Like one of the articles said - people are more worried about the number of cup holders than the price of gas.

bowke28 · May 2004

ranges from 1.84-1.89 a gallon.

dbgindy · May 2004

Just shot up today from around $1.90 (regular) to over 2.10 in most places...

Duncan

steine13 · May 2004

... here in Lansing, MI, it went from 1.96 to 2.20 between morning and noon. Still cheap... -m

dbgindy · May 2004

Cheap for Europe. Here it's enough to cause a panic.
Jolie may have a lot of company up there soon when they start drilling.... :-)

Duncan

perna · May 2004

and drives a state car. When state employees fill up, they don't have to pay tax.

So, while I'm paying $2.19 a gallon, he's paying NINETY-SIX CENTS. No, not $1.96. $0.96.

Someone tell me again how big oil is the one ripping us off?

robr2 · May 2004

and drives a state car. When state employees fill up, they don't have to pay tax. So, while I'm paying $2.19 a gallon, he's paying NINETY-SIX CENTS. No, not $1.96. $0.96. Someone tell me again how big oil is the one ripping us off?

The Michigan gas tax is only $0.19 and the fed tax is $0.184 - that's less than $0.38 (per http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp). Are you sure he just isn't busting your chops? So your Dad can pull up to any gas station in Michigan and pay $0.96? Seems ripe for abuse by any state empolyee.

michaellno · May 2004

...halfway between Denver and Colo Springs. 85 octane is about $1.90-1.95, while 87 octane (midgrade, what Ford says we *must* use for the Focus) is $2.09 or thereabouts.

Not the highest, but not the lowest either.

bowke28 · May 2004

i would assume that the octane difference is because of altitude, but the rest of the country buys 87 as regular and 89 as mid-grade.

our 87 octane is under $1.90

grneyes · May 2004

Got quoted a killer price on a C320 sedan sunroof, cdchanger. $33,375, $4700 below invoice on dealer stock '04 last week. This was internet-generated, and $1K under carsdirect! Started talking about other avail. colors, he said he could get same model, same options by doing a trade with another dealer. We found the car and got ready to do the deal, and found the car at the other dealer was produced later in the year than the first, and there was a manufacturer's price increase. Now, the model I want is $1000 more simply because he made an error in the quote. Faxed me the invoices, showing that one had an earlier ship date and a $1,000 lower MSRP.
My choice is to take a color I don't want or pay extra. Does this sound right?

rroyce10 · May 2004

.... ** $33,375, $4700 below invoice on dealer stock '04 last week **

$4,700 below invoice ...? (cough, sneeze) what was MSRP ....?

Terry.

jwilliams2 · May 2004

Yup, price increase was Feb 1st as I recall. I think this model has $3000 or so dealer cash. So unless he can find one dated prior to the increase, you can either take the one he has, or pay the extra grand for the color you want. Its that simple.
JW

grneyes · May 2004

Exactly. An honest mistake. However, I bought and serviced my current car for the last 9 years from these guys. Offered to bring in a trade tomorrow which we hadn't discussed up until now, another opportunity for them if they want it.

A quote's a quote. I'm in high-ticket sales myself and the same thing has happened to me. Suck it up and try to be more careful next time. In my view, the guy is not doing the right thing.

akangl · May 2004

I was out driving the past 3 days, packed on about 1100 miles.

We are sitting at about $2.06/gal in Fairbanks, Anchorage was around $2.02/gal. Just love the $40 fill ups with the Explorer.

I think I'll be biking a lot more often these days.

grneyes · May 2004

First invoice was $40,400, second is $41,390. The first quote on the $40.4 was 33,375. His math is not adding up to $4700, not sure where he came up with that.

Only options I'm looking for are sunroof and Cd changer. They exist on the second car. According to the invoice, only a sunroof exists on the first together with an option I don't want, split seats and ski package. He assured me it had a changer, perhaps he intended to add it at no cost when he first quoted the price. There goes $400 of his $1000.
I'm going to the dealership in person tomorrow, all the exchanges to this point have been i'net and phone.

mystf18 · May 2004

I am a 1st time car buyer, and worked thru the internet to get quotes from local dealers. I got to a Civic dealer w/ a quote below invoice, but then they tacked on $800 worth of dealer fees. $300 was for secure etching and $500 of doc fees. What is this doc fee? I am in the Atlanta area- I feel like this is likely too high. I am not registering this car in the state I am purchasing it in, and the dealer says I am going to have to handle paying my sales tax and getting my tags myself, so what r they charging me for? Can some1 plz provide guidance? I think b/c I am a young college student, they are trying to take advantage of me.

Also, I have been scrimping and saving for a long time now, and have enough to pay it all off in cash right now. My college friends say this is enough leverage to get about $1500 below invoice. Any guidance as to whether my cash can make that good a deal?

My friends also say that I should bargain for total price, not a quote before dealer fees. I think this makes sense. What do you guys think?

Also, what is out the door price? Does that mean including all dealer fees, but before taxes? And is it the same as drive out price?

Lastly, I don't absolutely have to buy this car right now. Should I wait until later on in the year when dealers might want to get rid of '04s in prep for the '05s? If so, when is a good time, and what kind of difference can waiting make? I am considering automatic sedans such as the Honda Civic, the Toyota Corolla and the Nissan Sentra.

Thanks SO much for any help. This is such a confusing time for me, and every1 here just seems so nice and knowledgeable, I thought it would be a good place to ask Q's.

bill100 · May 2004

Mystf,

In order to give you a good target price your really need to be more specific about what your looking for. From what I can tell you went to a Honda dealer and they quoted you $800 in dealer fees on a Civic right?

Well here's an example. My friend just bought the car a week ago now.

2004 LX Honda Civic Sedan (Automatic) with air.

Here is the magic formula alot of car buyers simply cannot understand. I just don't get why either.

Your target price is invoice - manufacture to consumer incentives and or rebates - manufacture to dealer cash if any is available. Sometimes Edmunds post manufacture to dealer cash. It's that simple.

Realistically your looking at a little over invoice - manufacture to consumer incentives and or rebates - manufacture to dealer cash if any is available.

The only fee that you should expect to pay is the doc fee. I honestly don't ever pay this fee. Some dealers try to say its mandatory but I just have them adjust my final out the door price to match the doc fee they tack on. In my area dealers try to charge $150. $500 is way to much. I have read many many times $50 is really even pushing it when it comes to this fee. This fee is negotiable. If it wasn't then they wouldn't be adjusting my out the door price accordingly. Do not pay for any other fee especially window or "secure" etching. Do not pay for undercoating or pin stripping or scotch guard as well. All a waste of money!

Bottom line: My friend paid 14,900 and got free tires for as long as she owns the car.

Her best quote was $14800!

Now you asked would it be possible to achieve $1500 under invoice simply because your offering to pay in cash. Let me tell you something. A dealer would rather you finance the unit through one of their lenders. That way they could make more money off the deal. As for you paying cash they could really care less. So your answer would be no! Their not going to go $1500 under invoice because you have cash in hand. If they did that then they would be dipping into what's called holdback. Possibly loosing all their holdback on the car if they went that low.

So at best your looking at $14800 - $14,700 "out the door" which means the doc fee is included along with any other fee you let them charge you. TTL is not included. You must be prepared to pay these extra fees at the tag office. The best way to get the best price in my opinion is to have dealers compete against one another. Simply email all the Honda dealers in your area and wait for their quote. After you receive their initial quote email them again announcing the lowest bid "do not reveal the lowest bidding dealers information. They do not like that!". Keep doing this until they finally say that's the lowest they can go. If they say "by all means buy from the other dealer" well then you pretty much know you have reached their bottom dollar. This process should not take you no more than a few days top.

On some makes and models you might want to consider Gap Insurance. No Honda Civic is not one of the models! Honda Civic has great resale value. From all the models that I seen you list in my opinion the Honda Civic would be your best bet. I personally own one as well right now and I have never had a problem with it yet!

Last thing...if you decide to finance make sure to check your credit score. 700-800 will land you the lowest rate possible. Some lenders require a 750 some require 730 other such as my credit union requires 700 to achieve the lowest rate.

To figure out how much you will owe once you tag and title your car all you need to do is ask the dealer for a vin number and know how much your final out the door price will be. Call the DMV, give them your VIN number and the out the door price and they can tell you exactly how much you will owe once you tag it. Some states offers credit towards the out the door price if you decide to trade in your old car. For example. Say your out the door price is...

$15700

The dealer gave you $700 towards your trade in.

Now the DMV will configure excise tax against $15000 instead of $15700. Follow me?

Only in these instances can a used car be worth trading in to a dealer. You just might make out by saving some money on excise tax.

BUT! In states where you don't have this opportunity its almost always better to sell your trade in yourself! Dealerships only offer wholesale or dealer only auction market prices. Most of the time these figures are much less than trade in guide book values such as what Edmunds, NADA, and Kelly shows. Now I have people all the time saying well then how come my dealer gave me so much over guide book trade in value for my vehicle? My reply is simple! I ask them how much did you get off of MSRP? A dealer will make up for it some way or another! Guaranteed!

Well I hope I have helped you in some way. If you have more questions just ask. No I am not a car dealer. I am a consumer advocate. I frequent this board because the dealers in here just love to read what I have to say. If you ask them I have no clue about anything! lol Go figure!

Good luck...

Bill

dbgindy · May 2004

Don't make it tough on yourself. Simply get their best OTD ( Out the door)price. That way they can configure it any way they want and it doesn't matter to you since you are just asking for their best overall price. OTD should include everything (doc fees,taxes, misc., etc). Once you settle on that do you really care how it's broken down? :-)

Good luck!

Duncan

bowke28 · May 2004

take their best price before fees, add about $100 and make that your OTD offer plus sales tax.

cash deals ARE NOT an incentive for dealers anymore. if you finance or lease, they get their money almost as quickly these days, so cash is actually a deterrent to dealing more.

driftracer · May 2004

with financing with a major lender, we were automatically funded at midnight upon submitting the loan. We'd do an electronic approval, like through Ford or Chrysler, then a confirmation back to teh lender that the customer was contracted. We got our money quicker through FMCC or DCC or Honda than by sending your check to the bank.

Most people who say they are paying "cash" are full of it, anyway - they're going through their credit union, local bank, or money market account - they just want to use the word "cash" because they think dealers will jump through hoops.

Dealers would rather you finance, so don't expect any special favors for your "cash"...especially when they can get their money quicker by using a lender.

grapevinetx · May 2004

Bill100 wrote:

"out the door" which means the doc fee is included along with any other fee you let them charge you. TTL is not included."

I disagree. TTL is (or should be) included in an out-the-door (OTD) price. If you plan to register the car in a state other than the one in which you bought it, then you should request an OTD minus TTL price.

kyfdx · May 2004

I see you were correct about the bad gas in Louisville. I've been reading the stories here in our paper... It looks like Marathon/Ashland delivered a whole batch of bad gas for about a week.

The articles said no engine damage, just damage to the sensors. Is this consistent with what you had repaired?

regards,
kyfdx

bowke28 · May 2004

on the cars with internal fuel pumps, most of them have an integrated fuel sending unit, and have to have the whole pump replaced. thats what they did on my car.

since i had no out-of-pocket expenses, ashland is sending me 2 free tanks of gas.

im not sure thats a good thing, though...kinda like getting food poisoning from a restaurant, calling them, and them saying "come on in...we'll give you a free meal for 2!"

bsmall · May 2004

I looked at the 740iL used BMW and 2 options:
1. 1996 with 84k miles for about $15k - no issues with car and good shape etc
2. 1999 with 90k miles for about $18k - same shape etc.

anyone out there in car land have knowledge if it is better to get the 96 for less $ or spend a few more and get the 99 -- or does it matter?
(96 and 99 have same body styles for the 740iL)

thx!

steine13 · May 2004

The mileage is nearly the same, so we're talking $3k for 3 years... no question go with the new one.

But more importantly, the years in question are special: 1996 was the first year for OBD-II (on-board diagnostics, level II), which was a BIG DEAL and overall a good thing for consumers.

But a lot of manufacturers took a year or two to get the bugs ironed out of a very complex system.

Especially in a BMW, I'd stay beaucoup the heck away from any 96's and early 97's.

-Mathias

bowke28 · May 2004

i wouldnt brag about landing a dealer that is stupid enough to outbid himself.

bill100 · May 2004

I see where you would assume that.

I said...

The first quote you see is an actual dealer beating his own previous quote that's why you see 4 bids have been placed up top.

What I meant was he was at 100 under invoice and another dealer came in at 200 then he rebid at 300 under invoice.

Bill

isellhondas · May 2004

When a dealer has to scratch in the dirt, outbidding himself for a nothing deal!

Pretty pathetic way for a merchant to move product.

mystf18 · May 2004

Bill, Duncan, bowke28, driftracer, grapevinetx, I appreciate all the awesome advice. Asking for OTD will really simplify matters.

I have another question. I buying the car in GA, but am registering it in another state. One dealer told me that I would have to contact my home state about taxes (the dealer would not be collecting tax from me; my home state would), while another dealer told me that he would have to charge me GA tax unless he delivered the car to me. Does any1 know which it should be? I definitely don't want to pay tax twice.

I appreciate any help.

719b · May 2004

i recall reading over and over how prices are market driven.
dealers and salesmen here justified selling cars with adm stickers by saying it's supply and demand... maybe the supply has out paced the demand. the pendulum swings in both directions.

bill100 · May 2004

Actually he beat a previous bid from a competing dealer. And as for the car business spiraling into a downfall the #1 desire for MOST car buyers is price! Price sells cars! Don't compete you just might get left out in the cold. There is to many websites out there informing consumers to buy low and then check around for who has the best service department if you don't like the one you bought your car from. Just my opinion!

By the way I had a fifth bid come in today. Brand new dealer and their offering to sell this unit at $14800. I doubt anyone is going to go much lower but I will keep you guy posted.

Bill

isellhondas · May 2004

Your point is correct however. It's the market that always determines pricing.

Just seems like a dumb way to sell cars but maybe I'm a dinosaur.

bill100 · May 2004

Think about it Isell. I know your not making as much money on these units. But every dealership is willing to sell a few here and there at a discount. Why would this be a dumb way to do it? To me its fast and its a easy car sale for you. You have a serious buyer and probably a informed buyer who will not come in and waste 2 hours of your time trying to haggle the same deal with you. I have to say this not only saves the consumer time and hassle but the dealer as well in my opinion! Its easy money!

Bill

719b · May 2004

you're not a dinosaur. it's economics. gas prices are going up and it's cheaper to pay $2+ a gallon than new car payments.
the american consumer will always want new cars. wait a few months when gas prices go down and the dealerships will fill up again.

grapevinetx · May 2004

Mystf18, generally speaking, you pay sales tax in the state where you register the vehicle. To be sure that you have the correct information regarding the GA dealer who said that he has to collect GA sales tax unless he delivers the vehicle to you out of GA, you need ask the GA DMV, but I would be surprised if that's the case.

Note that more and more states are developing reciprocal sales tax agreements. The DMV in your home state will be able to tell you whether they have a reciprocal agreement with GA. If GA and your home state have such an agreement, then your dealer in GA can collect the sales tax for your state and forward it to your state.

bill100 · May 2004

Even with gas prices this high you will always have a huge pool of new car buyers no matter what state of economical shock we're currently in, who will see a service such as Mycar.com work so well for their buddy that they must try it to see if it will work as well for them also. I only had to put in one submission and I can litterly see all the dealers quotes along with contact info and address on one web page. Plus I am notified by email every time a dealer beats the lowest current quote. No more wading through emails or making numerous phone calls or submitting numerous free quote request forms on multiple web sites to get the same effect. Its really kind of fun watching this go on without having to do very little. Its simple and effective! How does it get better than that? Can I do it myself without having to pay a middle man? Sure I could but it would mean more hassle and more time out of my day. Why not have an automated system do it for me instead so I can utilize my time doing something I want to do instead of spending most of it haggling with a car dealer. By using Mycar.com I pretty much received bottom dollar practically overnight without having to directly communicate with any dealer. And best of all my identity and phone number and email is hidden to all dealers except the winning dealer once the auction ends! With a free quote service ALL dealers have your contact info! Just really is a great way to go especially now since I saw that dealers in my area are actually eager to use a reverse auction service!

Just to see if I can do it once the auction is over I will try to adjust the out the door price so the dealer will pay for my expenses incurred using Mycar.com! I have a feeling I am not going to have much trouble having a dealer adjust such minimal fees in order to close the deal. I will let you guys know the outcome!

Bill

bsmall · May 2004

thanks for the input -- that's what my "gut" told me by I admint my auto ignorance -- this is the first time I'm straying from the Japanese car makers(Prelude and Maxima have been my only other cars except for the wife and kids vehicles of Explorer and now a new Suburban!) and going with something a bit more "interesting" -- what I've read on the town hall pages seems most are pleased with the 740iLs except for the new ones -- I also researched prices and the $18k range seems reasonable -- Carfax checks out ok on the VIN as well -- (owner must have done extra travel on the car in past 3 ys as it went from 50k to 90k since spring '01) -- do you think the price looks good? also, my first choice was going to be an Audi A8 but was told to stay away from them for servicing problems (1998 with 68kmiles for $18k).
thx! -

wibble · May 2004

A little late on the conversation here but here goes. The G35 sedan / G35 Coupe / Nissan 350Z and Infiniti FX35 all share the Nissan FM (Front Midship) platform and engine. No other U.S. marketed Nissan or Infiniti uses that platform.

kyfdx · May 2004

Mathias has a pretty good handle on buying used cars, but I'll take a stab at this one. A 740iL with high mileage is a big leap to take for your first foray away from the Honda/Nissan family. Even if this car is in great shape for the year and mileage driven, you can probably assume about $200/month minimum for maintenance/tires/brakes. Start adding on if it needs repairs (and it will). Almost any repair on a 7-series will be four figures.

I'm not sure what else to recommend, considering where your desires seem to be. There really isn't anything comparable to those two cars, unless you look at a Lexus LS.

These are smaller, but a '99 or '00 Lexus GS would be a much more reliable car, and less costly to maintain.

If you have to get one of these, Mathias is right, the newer one is the better buy.

regards,
kyfdx

automan227 · May 2004

Personally owning a '98 A8, I can tell you that reapirs are so much more expensive because the car is made of aluminum.

Great cars, but don't ever get hit in it (i've been lucky so far).

AS

steine13 · May 2004

... I think the stuff to stay away from is the gadgetry -- S-class Benz's have all kinds of little and not-so-little electrical thingys that will bite you later.
I-drive needs to be avoided.
And with the A8, there is the Al body.

A '99 740 may be no worse, in principle, than a 3- or 5-series of that vintage... it's really not a question of how many cylinders -- unless you need an engine rebuild -- it's a question of how many sensors and chips and what will they charge you for it... my neighbor's oldest ist driving a '91 850 (V-12) and says it's largely two 6's fused at the crank, with lots of parts compatibility. Of course, he thought he could flip it quick and make a buck... yeah, right.
But reliability has been OK, and I think his mileage is up there.

In any case, things can get ugly expensive, but cool cars nonetheless.

-Mathias

rroyce10 · May 2004

.... ** it's a question of how many sensors and chips and what will they charge you for it.. **

Great vehicles, but if the air drops out your lookin' at $3,500, if the power window turns in-op it's $185 just for the part and 2.5hrs labor at $90ish an hour for around $220, that equals, aah, ugh, uummm, hmm (lets see, carry my four, add the two) $400+ and then oh, lets add some tax, so figure $430 to make the window go up and down, God forbid the wiper motor goes "bye bye" at $360 and 4 hrs labor cuz' the top shroud has to come off ....

Great vehicles, I love to drive them and they are very cool, but just be prepared, it's a hi mileage Luxury vehicle thats costs more than a Cavalier to fix ..........

Terry.

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