****For the 12 Daewoos that are still on the road****
Hmmmm, I suspect Daewoo dropped all its cars here in Alaska, can't drive down the street without seeing at least one Laganza or whatever else they had. They are very popular with the BHPH crowd.
they're not welcome in the rest of the retail market - many lenders won't even consider financing one, and there are still new units on the ground. A dealer here in Philly is still advertising a two for one deal - pay list for any Daewoo product, get a second car free.
Sounds good.......except.........you're still buried even if you pay cash. I guess if you want 2 cars to drive into the ground it would be ok. There used to be a dealer in Fairbanks, but they got out before Daewoo went under.
I worked as a service manager at a Dodge/Jeep/Chrysler/Daewoo store before I started consulting - the Daewoo service experience was exceptionally strange.
"few things are a little askew here -- Chuck1 .. your opinion that the majority of dealers are bad people, is just that, your opinion .. maybe how you conducted business with poor results might have something to do with, I can't say, I wasn't there .. but usually the person that cries the most is the person that has the Chip on their shoulder, but a good Doctor can have that surgically removed with no problem" .
Here in Southern California-The "Power Automotive Group" got in to big trouble for changing paperwork after the fact and other things. As far as I do business, it's very simple Invoice, holdback, equals "X" over this amount. When I walk in dealers know within a few minutes they are not going to make much money off me, however this NEVER STOPS THEM TO DOING THE SAME OLD TRICKS. Then you walk in to the financing office and it's "UP SELL" again. Overpriced warranty, rust protection, fabric protection, glass etching, and the list goes on...................
"Overpriced warranty, rust protection, fabric protection, glass etching, and the list goes on"
These aren't "tricks", they're offers to buy products or services, and it's a standard in the automotive industry for an F&I person to present these items, because this person is also the one who handles your financing or takes your check - if you're not interested, say so, but no one is pulling a trick unless it gets slid into a contract without disclosure, and that's illegal. I'm sure you'll say THAT'S happened to you, too...
As far as I do business, it's very simple Invoice, holdback, equals "X" over this amount.
How do you figure in the Holdback? Do you find out how long the dealer has had the vehicle? If they have had it on the lot more than 90 days there is no holdback left. 30 & 60 days also figure into the equation.
While I agree that each person should take responsibility for saying "yes" or "no", anyone in the car business who trys to sell these products as "necessary", "recommended" or even "useful" is flat out lying to them.
Anyone in the car business knows that "rust protection" is not needed in todays cars and their warranty is totally useless. Some manufacturers will even void their own warranty if the aftermarket stuff was applied wrong (or they say it was). Glass etching makes no sense at all since it is just a number that you have to call a telephone number to trace and how many of those businesses have gone under? Aren't there VIN plates on several different places on vehicles?
"Paint Protector" and "Fabric Guard" are the biggest loads of crap there ever was. Back in the early 90's we used to call out the "Perma Shield" people to wax a vehicle with the stuff, which they charged $39.00 for. (Nowadays you can order a bottle right over the web.) We'd get one of the detail people to spray Eagle One Fabric Protector ($8.99/bottle) on the fabric and then charge the customer $399.00 for this "Protection Package". Of course the Perma Shield really had no warranty because to enforce it the customer had to only wash the vehicle with Perma Shield Car Wash.
There are a lot of misconceptions about the car business and each business does need to make money, however, having the F&I guy flat out LIE about a particular product to sell it is not right, period.
nothing is really "necessary", indicating that a product (like an extended warranty) is "recommended" or even "useful" is certainly not "flat out lying to them".
I don't appreciate being called a liar, and my experience has shown SOME of these products useful, so I would recommend them.
Would I have a dealer perform "fabric protection" on MY car? No, I'd Scotchgard the thing myself, like I've done with every vehicle I've owned. Would I "rustproof"? No, I'd buy 6 cans of undercoating at Wal-Mart, put the car on my electric lift, and do it myself.
By the way, if you think cars don't rust "these days", think again.
I'm an automotive expert by trade and career. I'd like to think I can do anything for my car or truck. Many people, however, don't even know how to check their oil or tires, so to put a car on a lift and spray undercoating, or to use three layers of different waxes and sealers is beyond them.
People like that may pay for those services. If you don't agree, don't buy it, but please don't call me a liar - I've never lied to anyone, except my dad in 1976 when I told him the dog broke his lamp, when it was actually me. He found out eventually.
I understand that a business has to make money to stay in business. I won't reiterate what was said above, but totally agree. It's all just padding to the bottom line that unsuspecting people buy, and some F&I people can be totally pushy. Some people "drop their guard" in the F&I office and end up purchasing these useless items....
You may not lie, you may not be pushy, but I can't tell you how many F&I people misrepresent the need for the rustproofing, fabric protector, glass etching, etc. If the F&I guys are paid a commission on these items, (and I know they are) the system is ripe for misrepresentation!
but what kind of MORON wouldn't do some research and go into a $20-50k purchase with some idea of what they were doing?
I guess, if you're into griping and whining, it's easier to go into the office, play dead like a lamb going to slaughter, then whine and cry about how those bad people ripped you off. What a crock.
Manufacturers warrant their vehicles for rust protection, at the very least 6 years/100,000 miles. I've seen these undercoatings, up on the lift and they are a joke for the most part. What good is undercoating when it does not get to the hidden places where water stays and metal rusts? What are the warranties on these products and who are they underwritten by?
How long do you tell your customers these "Paint Protectors" last? It's a fact they last no longer than a good wax job in normal use.
By the way I did not mention the extended warranties because they are not a bad thing to get if you keep your car past it's manufacturers warranty and get it for a good price.
I'm sure you don't like being called a liar and wouldn't call you a liar. Deception is deception though.
Why should a person undercoat their vehicle when the manufacturer does and warrants it?
Why should a person pay $300 for a wax job that they could get at their local car wash for $59.00?
I could sell an ignorant person a bottle xx and tell them they really need it and mark it 300% but I would still feel bad about it.
YOUR reply is a crock. And defensive enough to tell me you don't feel good about it.
Isn't a person who makes his living with cars a "research" source? If someone who claims knowledge tells someone that something is necessary or recommended, why shouldn't they believe them?
You know why, because someone selling a product is not a RELIABLE source for information about the product.
The fact that there are a lot of people who don't know yet that someone trying to make money off of you will tell you anything that it'll get you to buy it does not take some responsibility off of the deceiver.
If I try to sell a car that has been wrecked as never having been wrecked and you go to buy it, have it inspected, refuse to buy it because it has been wrecked, does it change the fact that I still tried to deceive you? On the other hand if you don't have it inspected and buy it, does it change the fact that I deceived you?
You are making all sorts of assumptions and judgements about the buyer but regardless of whether they say YES or NO, if they are told something that isn't true, and the person who says it KNOWS it isn't true, they are still being deceived.
There are unsophisticated buyers, we all know that. They are most likely the "payment buyers" that were discussed earlier. I can hear it now...."for only $20.00 a month Mr. Smith (over the term of your 5 year loan!) you can have rustproofing, glass etching, fabric protector, paint protector- your investment will be protected!"
Sign here! Hey, if this is the way you F&I guys rationalize to yourself so you can sleep at night, that is OK!
I think where we are confusing things (or where I'm coming from anyway) is I think there is nothing wrong, unethical, etc to offer something to someone. However, when deception comes in the form of trying to convince them to buy it, that is wrong.
"However, when deception comes in the form of trying to convince them to buy it, that is wrong."
And in the F&I office, there is the F&I guy, (or gal) and the party buying the vehicle. I can tell them anything, or imply anything I want....who is to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!
However, when deception comes in the form of trying to convince them to buy it, that is wrong.
I've been required to "pitch" things I didn't believe in - like paint sealer, fabric protection, never had to pitch etching, thank goodness, 'cause I couldn't. Anyway, I never told anyone they "HAD to have anything or couldn't live without it. I simply told them that these products were available, lightly touched on each one, and gave more infor if requested - that was my job, and I did it. If you wanted to buy the whole shootin' match, that was up to you. I never needed to lie to anyone, and ironically my stats were higher than just about everyone I knew, including several people who would try to convince you the moon was made of cheese.
Why should a person undercoat their vehicle when the manufacturer does and warrants it?
The only warranty from the manufacturer is for "body panel perforation due to rust-through". There's NO warranty oin your paint finish or against surface rust - not that it matters, but just to clarify.
Also, I use undercoating because I don't like the frame of my vehicle to look like an old piece of metal that's been left out in the rain - I'd rather it be all one color - black - looks good, makes me feel good. It also deadens road noise.
If the guy comes off like a snake oil salesman, take your leave and don't do business there - if you get that feeling and don't take action, I have no sympathy for you - you get what you deserve.
I can't and won't speak for the industry as a whole, unless I'm testifying, but I know how I ran my office. I know there are some [non-permissible content removed] F&I people out there, too. Just like there are in any career field.
Okay for chuck & mfullmer I'm not in the biz. That being said the F& I guy is trying to maximize his dealer's profits right? YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THESE EXTRAS... :-)
If they say you must to get this price you bobst on down the street. All that's needed to be said is thanks but I'm not interested.
I just don't see what is so out of whack here. It's an additional service that's offered. If you don't feel it's of value don't buy it. If you feel your job is to reform the car business ( or any business for that matter) start working there and change it from the inside. Lobbing potshots at drift will not stop dealers from marketing these products.
Relators get paid a 7% commission (on average) to put your house in the MLS or to show you properties. Hiring an attorney to do your paperwork is a helluva lot cheaper but most folks feel they provide a service. The ones that don't do FISBO.
Is the fast food place wrong for offering you a drink or dessert if you didn't order one? These are their highest profit margin items (especially the drinks) so they try and get you to impulse buy them. The F& I folks are doing the same thing on a larger scale....
F & I guys. Here what is out of whack. There are people who can be taken advantage of (Elderly for example) there is no accountability on what goes on in the F&I office. You have no witness, and a guy who is paid a commission on what he can pass off that is really not needed. We stayed away from the extended warranty because THERE IS A VALUE IN THAT ITEM!! Everything else is pure profit and are purchased by people who don't know any better and are convinced by the F&I guy. And as far as REFORM, LOTS OF LUCK. The Car Dealers have some of the strongest lobbyist both on the state level and in Washington!
quit your job, become a car salesman, work in the career for the typical 3-5 years it takes to break into management, and become an F&I manager. You could set the example - lead by example, I say!
If you believe so strongly that they're all a bunch of crooks who fleece old people, change it! You can do it - you have my vote!
"become a car salesman, work in the career for the typical 3-5 years it takes to break into management, and become an F&I manager."
I have never met a salesperson who sticks around that long. Can you take your combined experience at several different dealerships to get to the three to five years?
drift, that's not surprising. A local Kia dealer is offering a buy a Sedona get a Rio free promo.
Great. So, uh what exactly do I do? I need a Rio, so do I buy a Sedona at list to get it free? Nah, Rios are cheap enough. Ok, no wait, I need a minivan, so I buy the Sedona, get the Rio free and trade BOTH in for a 25% downpayment on a Dodge Grand Caravan Sport.
Sounds good to me. Geesh. I thought Kia was doing better than that.
"And as far as REFORM, LOTS OF LUCK. The Car Dealers have some of the strongest lobbyist both on the state level and in Washington!"
Give me a break, Chuck. 1) Full disclosure. I am not involved in car sales in any way. I do not work for a car maker. I sell insurance. Back to the point, by saying you should reform the system, Chuck, read the post. He encouraged you to quit your job, become a sales person and move up to F&I manager. Reform from within by selling the way you think it should be. Choose not to sell fabric/paint/rust protection if you wish. And see your pay plummet.
I agree that mispresenting the performance of these products or their necessity is deceptful. But simply offering it or even saying "I recommend" is not inappropriate. Every car buyer is an adult. If that adult is not sophisticated that they cannot say no to these things, that cannot be legislated away.
A good example of selling in my job that equals the F&I guy. Person comes in to write auto insurance. They have minimum liability limits, only has one car and it has full coverage but no coverage to reimburse them for a rental if they have an accident.
It would be wrong (and UNETHICAL!) for me to NOT show this person higher liability limits. In fact, it would be proper to say it is a necessity. If they say, no, fine. But, when they make the ONE mistake of their life while driving and cause an injury with a legit $100,000 injury, I can sleep perfectly fine at night. I don't think twice, because I can't force someone to do something they've got in their heads they don't need. I see the "my friend said you only need the minimums" or "uninsured and underinsured are the same thing" (uh, how could they be? They're DIFFERENT words!) or "you'll never pay anyway" (then why are you buying it?).
I ALWAYS show rental reimbursement. Many will say "eh, I'll borrow a car. Or, my dealer will give me a loaner." Fine. I don't push. But, then when that guy hits a deer and the guy he'd borrow the car from is gone on vacation and my insured has to get to work, but can't without coughing up $25/day, I can go home with total peace of mind because I showed him a way to avoid the problem (and explained WHY I showed it to him) and he refused.
The point of the matter? I don't make ANYTHING on these products. But my boss, the agent does. When she makes money, she's happy. When she's happy, I make money. But, it's irrelevant. These things ARE needed and my boss could bonus me $10 to sell a $7 coverage and I probably wouldn't sell anymore of it than I do now.
business since 1992 (after 10 years in the USAF as a Security Policeman), the last three and a half have been consulting for lawfirms in dealer fraud and lemon law cases. I've been with three dealer groups in that time, changes dictated only by circumstances with my elderly parent that moved me out of state.
Any more questions? I know plenty of places you can apply - I have friends in the business all over...
Sedonas are getting ugly in the lemon law world - that's good for lawyers (and me), but bad for current Kia owners (further dropping values due to consumer and auction buyer fears) and Kia itself - I've seen more transmission failures in Sedonas in the last year and a half than I've seen in over three years on Ford Windstars and all DCC van products combined - that is a substantial statement.
That's what I don't get it. Hyundai and Kia are more or less the same company. But, only yesterday I was reading an article that one of the latest JD Power studies (I believe IQS, not long-term reliability), Hyundai edged out Honda (one fewer problem per 100). Probably not statistically significant or easily dismissed if you doubt the validity of the study, but on a guy level, it's a quite a revelation.
Then, OTOH, you have Kia. Dealer desparate to get rid of the things. Reminding you of Daewoo and Suzuki sales. I don't get it. What I do get, however, is the Japanese automakers better look out for Hyundai, IMO.
1992 (after 10 years in the USAF as a Security Policeman
I want to personally thank you for this past work on behalf of our country. My 19 y.o. son is a reserve Army Military Policeman. He is currently on active duty (not in Iraq!)
"I sell insurance." Don't even get me started on insurance, with red lining, over insuring people (to get that bigger commission), drastic rates between companies, companies unwilling to cover my house in Southern California for fire. Yea insurance, that's a noble profession.... legalized numbers racket!!!
Heh heh heh. You know, I'm actually glad I brought up my job, because now I know how isell, drift, bowke, terry, et al, feel. People coming to this board looking for help and there's always a couple know-it-all, holier-than-thou reactionaries who don't know ONE SINGULAR thing about which they speak.
Although it's late and shouldn't even indulge you, I will try to at least provide a minimal defense.
1) Sure, car dealers need to be licensed. Sure, car sales are regulated (in WI) by the Deptartment of Agriculture, Trade amd Consumer Protection (don't even ask, because I don't get it). But, there is NO WAY that the process of getting a license, much less maintaining it, compares to what it takes to getting an insurance license, IMO.
Getting the insurance license is admittedly, pretty easy in its own right. 4 hour ethics pre-course, followed by something like (I forget precisely) 6 (?) hours of class training for each line (property, casaulty, life, health). Then a test for each. After that, 24 hours each 2 year period of continuing ed. Not hard, but requires a degree of committment.
2) Insurance (at least in WI) is one of the most heavily regulated industries. Our rating programs are subject to review and approval and the Commissioner of Insurance does follow up on every complaint.
But, let's address your issues. I believe they are presumptuous, poorly thought out, but commonly held misconceptions. Redlining. Do I believe companies have de-facto policies of not insuring homes/autos in specific areas? No, absolutely not. The federal government is on this and after the lawsuits in the 80s, it does not happen.
Does that mean more homes in run down, crack, gang, theft and arson riddled areas are turned down than homes in low-crime, well-kept suburban areas? Absolutely! A consumer activist, crybaby attitude, says "that's not fair, you're discriminating against minorities". Well, ok. Let's say we do insure those homes. A purely objective view by ANYBODY says those homes cost 3x for similiar coverage as the suburban home. If you can't figure out why, then you DO NOT understand the basic concept of insurance and thus, have NO right to complain about it.
It's about risk. Why do 16 year old boys pay more for auto insurance than 45 year married women? Any middle schooler can tell you why. Their 16 year old brother drives like a maniac, mom drives like a grandma. (Simplistic, but to the point). Should a home in a area with theft 5x as high as another area not be more expensive to insure?
Overinsuring is stupid. It's not done for a couple reasons: 1) The product is price sensitive. If Company A across the street is $30 less for the SAME coverage, most people will go there. Why would we overinsure the house and create a greater price disadvantage? 2) The price difference between 100000 and say, 150000 is big enough to make people shop, but NOWHERE near enough to make a dent on the commission. That difference on the average house in my area is about $60...or $12 or less in commission. That $60 definitely costs us the business anyway, so nothing gained. 3) It ultimately fosters the "you'll never pay the full amount anyway" attitude. By insuring at the amount we calculate as replacement cost, we reassure the client they aren't overinsuring and in case of a glitch, there's a 20% cushion anyway. Besides, if the house is a total loss and the client chooses not to rebuild, we pay policy limits. Period. Another reason we definitely don't want to overinsure. My experience that people that are overinsured are because the market value of their home outstrips the replacement value. When they go to refi the mortgage or get a Home Equity, the lender requires dwelling coverage to equal the total lent amount. Thus, instantly overinsured.
I can't comment on the lack of available coverage in Southern CA, since I don't live there nor I am totally familiar with the situation. What I do know is this: if you live near the interface and refuse to mitigate, it seems like that would be the last house I'd want to insure, don't you think? Why would I want to insure an house that is the most likely to burn down? That might not be your situation, so again, I can't say why for sure.
"Drastic rates between companies". I assume you mean drastic rate differences. Think of insurance as any product with supply and demand. When a company has many, many homes in a given area, it may become overexposed there. It may then have borne the brunt of a storm (or wildfire). The premiums respond to that. Or it may want to pare back its exposure there without cancelling policies or freezing sales. Prices increase to slow demand. People have asked us this. "Why are you so high? Company X is $200 less". What I don't understand is why are you asking? First, what difference does it make WHY? We are. If you don't like the premium for the policy offered, you know where you can get it cheaper somewhere else. All I can tell a person is, you get what you pay for. Somebody's got a cut-rate premium because something else is cut-rate, whether it be claim rep training, customer service staffing or worse, its reserves.
Anyway, I know this post will only prompt more allegations that I'm a crook and I screw people out of their money and never pay, so I won't respond any further to you, Chuck. All I can say is, until you prove otherwise, I believe you're a troll. And they've come and gone many times here.
.. ** People coming to this board looking for help and there's always a couple know-it-all, holier-than-thou reactionaries who don't know ONE SINGULAR thing about which they speak **
Bingo ...!
What a funny quincedence, and it seems they never post any information on their profile either .. I guess that cross they carry is too heavy to hit those extra keys ......
No, I'm not going to drop the actual names and locations of clients, if that's what you mean. If you don't like my posts, I suggest paying the extra $5-6 and stepping up to a scrolling mouse so you don't have to click and drag the bar on the right side of your screen.
hi, firstly, let me thank in advance for the help. I've started looking at some sub-10K used cars, and the first problem I see is that carfax and autocheck return different number of records for a car. So which report should I purchase, or is it wiser to purchase both. Take for eg, VIN# 1FAFP3835YW175218 I was looking at at getauto. When I run the free check Carfax says it has 4 records, Autocheck states it has 8. Typically, autocheck seems to have more records. Any suggestions? thx.
many records are simply title transfers or auction sales events, in many states, even safety and emission inspections hit those history reports. You'll have to actually buy the service to figure out what you're looking at - a very much recommended step in any used car purchase.
thanks DriftRacer, so do you suggest I should buy monthly services for both Autocheck and Carfax? In my earlier post I just wanted to find out if one was decisively better and comprehensive than the other. One more question - how to choose the mechanic for testing out the car of interest. I just know one mechanic in my area, and wouldn't know if he was good :>. As you might have guessed, my knowledge about assessing a used car is abysmal. Now, is there any place on the web reviewing mechanics and garages?
I really don't keep track of ways to locate a technician or shop, since I have no need for that - unfortunately, I'm no help there.
CARFAX is my hands down favorite although auto check provides a good service. Carfax is a service the most dealers use, so that's a good recommendation.
Tornado25a , I really do appreciate your definitions, although, it's not likely to change my perceptions about your industry. There are really two types of businesses that I despise, those are car dealerships and insurance companies. Both, unfortunately have given me plenty of reasons to have these perceptions. You are also correct that insurance is a heavy regulated industry, but our insurance commissioner in California is controlled by the insurance companies with all the campaign contributions he gets. And by the way, I am not a troll. I have read this board for years, I just have never posted!
Allrighty, I have a question. Dunno if anyone can answer it, but I have one. About how much investment does it take to open a car dealership? Kinda curious since I'd like to open my own buisness one day, and the buisness I'm in (IT) seems to be going south (and east..Bangalore, etc) fast.
I (like everyone, I'll bet) have ideas for running a better dealership, of course. You know, more honesty, etc, no overpriced extras ("if you'd like to protect your finish, there's a great detail place down the road"). Maybe figure out how to add some value-services that most car dealers don't offer; aftermarket stereos and stuff like that, or something, I dunno yet. Besides, the nearest Mazda dealer to my own is an hour drive away, so I figure there's a market (there MUST be, with all the new Mazdas driving around...).
....... Well, lets start out with the dirt .. if it's a Mazda store your going to need "at least" 3/4 acres in a Great location (remember, location location location) then you have to have the city and county give you the Big ok, with all the variances that go with and thats time and money .. then after you battle with the city/county for that, you have to be able to get all the property leveled, plumbed, drained, proper drainage area's and all of the city/county piping that goes with and off of the incoming streets, plus meet all of the Fed & insurance requirements (because you will have oil and gas on the property) plus ALL of the permits to go with ....
Of course, your going to need a builder/contractor/architect at the build site that "can" meet and/or exceed all of the franchise requirements and the city/county, and it gets into a big battle of size, direction, signs and sign posting (have you bought a new sign lately, ain't cheap, runs about $55,000 for one) height, dimensions, frontage, driveway size, traffic variance and you pay for the traffic change when they do a traffic measure ...
Then comes the building .. must meet the dealer/manufacturers requirements, plus pass the city/county specs .. so you have the showroom, service department, parts department, parts storage area, showroom frontage, inventory frontage, storage requirements, inventory requirements, people requirements, and all of the plumbing, electrical, air conditioners/heat and all that goes with, plus meet all of the Fed requirements ...
Then you have the actual build, thats always fun - remember, your money is tick-tick ticking away, because a 9 month contract can take 15+ months (and then some) because of city/county requirements can change with a new counceleman/woman, or the wrong supplies or half of the guys show up for work hungover a few times, or the cement pore is incorrect and/or the level is 2 degree's off the build sheets .... and that doesn't include the final closing of the financing, calling the builder 105 times because he went blind on the rear quarter dimensions, the inventory, getting the proper employee's, office furniture, computers, hand towels or the light bulbs .............. maybe your starting to get the "gist" of this ..?
Getcha about $2.5/$3,0 mill and that "might" get the doors open, and you better have at least another $700,000/$900,000 just for the "grins and glory" on the standby ~ ya know, the: "just in case money" -- then after all that, all you have to worry about is Day-1 .. .l.o.l..... nothin' too it ..... this is all before you can see Dime one.!
Comments
Terry
Hmmmm, I suspect Daewoo dropped all its cars here in Alaska, can't drive down the street without seeing at least one Laganza or whatever else they had. They are very popular with the BHPH crowd.
Daewoos are a rare sight around here.
Here in Southern California-The "Power Automotive Group" got in to big trouble for changing paperwork after the fact and other things. As far as I do business, it's very simple Invoice, holdback, equals "X" over this amount. When I walk in dealers know within a few minutes they are not going to make much money off me, however this NEVER STOPS THEM TO DOING THE SAME OLD TRICKS. Then you walk in to the financing office and it's "UP SELL" again. Overpriced warranty, rust protection, fabric protection, glass etching, and the list goes on...................
I'm sure you like to get a paycheck too?
These aren't "tricks", they're offers to buy products or services, and it's a standard in the automotive industry for an F&I person to present these items, because this person is also the one who handles your financing or takes your check - if you're not interested, say so, but no one is pulling a trick unless it gets slid into a contract without disclosure, and that's illegal. I'm sure you'll say THAT'S happened to you, too...
How do you figure in the Holdback? Do you find out how long the dealer has had the vehicle? If they have had it on the lot more than 90 days there is no holdback left. 30 & 60 days also figure into the equation.
Anyone in the car business knows that "rust protection" is not needed in todays cars and their warranty is totally useless. Some manufacturers will even void their own warranty if the aftermarket stuff was applied wrong (or they say it was). Glass etching makes no sense at all since it is just a number that you have to call a telephone number to trace and how many of those businesses have gone under? Aren't there VIN plates on several different places on vehicles?
"Paint Protector" and "Fabric Guard" are the biggest loads of crap there ever was. Back in the early 90's we used to call out the "Perma Shield" people to wax a vehicle with the stuff, which they charged $39.00 for. (Nowadays you can order a bottle right over the web.) We'd get one of the detail people to spray Eagle One Fabric Protector ($8.99/bottle) on the fabric and then charge the customer $399.00 for this "Protection Package". Of course the Perma Shield really had no warranty because to enforce it the customer had to only wash the vehicle with Perma Shield Car Wash.
There are a lot of misconceptions about the car business and each business does need to make money, however, having the F&I guy flat out LIE about a particular product to sell it is not right, period.
I don't appreciate being called a liar, and my experience has shown SOME of these products useful, so I would recommend them.
Would I have a dealer perform "fabric protection" on MY car? No, I'd Scotchgard the thing myself, like I've done with every vehicle I've owned. Would I "rustproof"? No, I'd buy 6 cans of undercoating at Wal-Mart, put the car on my electric lift, and do it myself.
By the way, if you think cars don't rust "these days", think again.
I'm an automotive expert by trade and career. I'd like to think I can do anything for my car or truck. Many people, however, don't even know how to check their oil or tires, so to put a car on a lift and spray undercoating, or to use three layers of different waxes and sealers is beyond them.
People like that may pay for those services. If you don't agree, don't buy it, but please don't call me a liar - I've never lied to anyone, except my dad in 1976 when I told him the dog broke his lamp, when it was actually me. He found out eventually.
I guess, if you're into griping and whining, it's easier to go into the office, play dead like a lamb going to slaughter, then whine and cry about how those bad people ripped you off. What a crock.
Manufacturers warrant their vehicles for rust protection, at the very least 6 years/100,000 miles. I've seen these undercoatings, up on the lift and they are a joke for the most part. What good is undercoating when it does not get to the hidden places where water stays and metal rusts? What are the warranties on these products and who are they underwritten by?
How long do you tell your customers these "Paint Protectors" last? It's a fact they last no longer than a good wax job in normal use.
By the way I did not mention the extended warranties because they are not a bad thing to get if you keep your car past it's manufacturers warranty and get it for a good price.
I'm sure you don't like being called a liar and wouldn't call you a liar. Deception is deception though.
Why should a person undercoat their vehicle when the manufacturer does and warrants it?
Why should a person pay $300 for a wax job that they could get at their local car wash for $59.00?
I could sell an ignorant person a bottle xx and tell them they really need it and mark it 300% but I would still feel bad about it.
Isn't a person who makes his living with cars a "research" source? If someone who claims knowledge tells someone that something is necessary or recommended, why shouldn't they believe them?
You know why, because someone selling a product is not a RELIABLE source for information about the product.
The fact that there are a lot of people who don't know yet that someone trying to make money off of you will tell you anything that it'll get you to buy it does not take some responsibility off of the deceiver.
If I try to sell a car that has been wrecked as never having been wrecked and you go to buy it, have it inspected, refuse to buy it because it has been wrecked, does it change the fact that I still tried to deceive you? On the other hand if you don't have it inspected and buy it, does it change the fact that I deceived you?
You are making all sorts of assumptions and judgements about the buyer but regardless of whether they say YES or NO, if they are told something that isn't true, and the person who says it KNOWS it isn't true, they are still being deceived.
Sign here! Hey, if this is the way you F&I guys rationalize to yourself so you can sleep at night, that is OK!
Rationalizing in order to sleep at night is just the product of a deceptive personality that says "Hey, if you'll buy it, it's not my fault."
And in the F&I office, there is the F&I guy, (or gal) and the party buying the vehicle. I can tell them anything, or imply anything I want....who is to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've been required to "pitch" things I didn't believe in - like paint sealer, fabric protection, never had to pitch etching, thank goodness, 'cause I couldn't. Anyway, I never told anyone they "HAD to have anything or couldn't live without it. I simply told them that these products were available, lightly touched on each one, and gave more infor if requested - that was my job, and I did it. If you wanted to buy the whole shootin' match, that was up to you. I never needed to lie to anyone, and ironically my stats were higher than just about everyone I knew, including several people who would try to convince you the moon was made of cheese.
Why should a person undercoat their vehicle when the manufacturer does and warrants it?
The only warranty from the manufacturer is for "body panel perforation due to rust-through". There's NO warranty oin your paint finish or against surface rust - not that it matters, but just to clarify.
Also, I use undercoating because I don't like the frame of my vehicle to look like an old piece of metal that's been left out in the rain - I'd rather it be all one color - black - looks good, makes me feel good. It also deadens road noise.
He presented me with this very elaborate, laminated sheet with their packages on it, I said no thank you, and he put it away.
If the guy comes off like a snake oil salesman, take your leave and don't do business there - if you get that feeling and don't take action, I have no sympathy for you - you get what you deserve.
If they say you must to get this price you bobst on down the street. All that's needed to be said is thanks but I'm not interested.
I just don't see what is so out of whack here. It's an additional service that's offered. If you don't feel it's of value don't buy it. If you feel your job is to reform the car business ( or any business for that matter) start working there and change it from the inside. Lobbing potshots at drift will not stop dealers from marketing these products.
Relators get paid a 7% commission (on average) to put your house in the MLS or to show you properties. Hiring an attorney to do your paperwork is a helluva lot cheaper but most folks feel they provide a service. The ones that don't do FISBO.
Is the fast food place wrong for offering you a drink or dessert if you didn't order one? These are their highest profit margin items (especially the drinks) so they try and get you to impulse buy them. The F& I folks are doing the same thing on a larger scale....
Just my .02
Duncan
If you believe so strongly that they're all a bunch of crooks who fleece old people, change it! You can do it - you have my vote!
I have never met a salesperson who sticks around that long. Can you take your combined experience at several different dealerships to get to the three to five years?
Great. So, uh what exactly do I do? I need a Rio, so do I buy a Sedona at list to get it free? Nah, Rios are cheap enough. Ok, no wait, I need a minivan, so I buy the Sedona, get the Rio free and trade BOTH in for a 25% downpayment on a Dodge Grand Caravan Sport.
Sounds good to me. Geesh. I thought Kia was doing better than that.
"And as far as REFORM, LOTS OF LUCK. The Car Dealers have some of the strongest lobbyist both on the state level and in Washington!"
Give me a break, Chuck. 1) Full disclosure. I am not involved in car sales in any way. I do not work for a car maker. I sell insurance. Back to the point, by saying you should reform the system, Chuck, read the post. He encouraged you to quit your job, become a sales person and move up to F&I manager. Reform from within by selling the way you think it should be. Choose not to sell fabric/paint/rust protection if you wish. And see your pay plummet.
I agree that mispresenting the performance of these products or their necessity is deceptful. But simply offering it or even saying "I recommend" is not inappropriate. Every car buyer is an adult. If that adult is not sophisticated that they cannot say no to these things, that cannot be legislated away.
A good example of selling in my job that equals the F&I guy. Person comes in to write auto insurance. They have minimum liability limits, only has one car and it has full coverage but no coverage to reimburse them for a rental if they have an accident.
It would be wrong (and UNETHICAL!) for me to NOT show this person higher liability limits. In fact, it would be proper to say it is a necessity. If they say, no, fine. But, when they make the ONE mistake of their life while driving and cause an injury with a legit $100,000 injury, I can sleep perfectly fine at night. I don't think twice, because I can't force someone to do something they've got in their heads they don't need. I see the "my friend said you only need the minimums" or "uninsured and underinsured are the same thing" (uh, how could they be? They're DIFFERENT words!) or "you'll never pay anyway" (then why are you buying it?).
I ALWAYS show rental reimbursement. Many will say "eh, I'll borrow a car. Or, my dealer will give me a loaner." Fine. I don't push. But, then when that guy hits a deer and the guy he'd borrow the car from is gone on vacation and my insured has to get to work, but can't without coughing up $25/day, I can go home with total peace of mind because I showed him a way to avoid the problem (and explained WHY I showed it to him) and he refused.
The point of the matter? I don't make ANYTHING on these products. But my boss, the agent does. When she makes money, she's happy. When she's happy, I make money. But, it's irrelevant. These things ARE needed and my boss could bonus me $10 to sell a $7 coverage and I probably wouldn't sell anymore of it than I do now.
Any more questions? I know plenty of places you can apply - I have friends in the business all over...
Then, OTOH, you have Kia. Dealer desparate to get rid of the things. Reminding you of Daewoo and Suzuki sales. I don't get it. What I do get, however, is the Japanese automakers better look out for Hyundai, IMO.
I want to personally thank you for this past work on behalf of our country. My 19 y.o. son is a reserve Army Military Policeman. He is currently on active duty (not in Iraq!)
Don't even get me started on insurance, with red lining, over insuring people (to get that bigger commission), drastic rates between companies, companies unwilling to cover my house in Southern California for fire. Yea insurance, that's a noble profession.... legalized numbers racket!!!
Although it's late and shouldn't even indulge you, I will try to at least provide a minimal defense.
1) Sure, car dealers need to be licensed. Sure, car sales are regulated (in WI) by the Deptartment of Agriculture, Trade amd Consumer Protection (don't even ask, because I don't get it). But, there is NO WAY that the process of getting a license, much less maintaining it, compares to what it takes to getting an insurance license, IMO.
Getting the insurance license is admittedly, pretty easy in its own right. 4 hour ethics pre-course, followed by something like (I forget precisely) 6 (?) hours of class training for each line (property, casaulty, life, health). Then a test for each. After that, 24 hours each 2 year period of continuing ed. Not hard, but requires a degree of committment.
2) Insurance (at least in WI) is one of the most heavily regulated industries. Our rating programs are subject to review and approval and the Commissioner of Insurance does follow up on every complaint.
But, let's address your issues. I believe they are presumptuous, poorly thought out, but commonly held misconceptions. Redlining. Do I believe companies have de-facto policies of not insuring homes/autos in specific areas? No, absolutely not. The federal government is on this and after the lawsuits in the 80s, it does not happen.
Does that mean more homes in run down, crack, gang, theft and arson riddled areas are turned down than homes in low-crime, well-kept suburban areas? Absolutely! A consumer activist, crybaby attitude, says "that's not fair, you're discriminating against minorities". Well, ok. Let's say we do insure those homes. A purely objective view by ANYBODY says those homes cost 3x for similiar coverage as the suburban home. If you can't figure out why, then you DO NOT understand the basic concept of insurance and thus, have NO right to complain about it.
It's about risk. Why do 16 year old boys pay more for auto insurance than 45 year married women? Any middle schooler can tell you why. Their 16 year old brother drives like a maniac, mom drives like a grandma. (Simplistic, but to the point). Should a home in a area with theft 5x as high as another area not be more expensive to insure?
Overinsuring is stupid. It's not done for a couple reasons: 1) The product is price sensitive. If Company A across the street is $30 less for the SAME coverage, most people will go there. Why would we overinsure the house and create a greater price disadvantage? 2) The price difference between 100000 and say, 150000 is big enough to make people shop, but NOWHERE near enough to make a dent on the commission. That difference on the average house in my area is about $60...or $12 or less in commission. That $60 definitely costs us the business anyway, so nothing gained. 3) It ultimately fosters the "you'll never pay the full amount anyway" attitude. By insuring at the amount we calculate as replacement cost, we reassure the client they aren't overinsuring and in case of a glitch, there's a 20% cushion anyway. Besides, if the house is a total loss and the client chooses not to rebuild, we pay policy limits. Period. Another reason we definitely don't want to overinsure. My experience that people that are overinsured are because the market value of their home outstrips the replacement value. When they go to refi the mortgage or get a Home Equity, the lender requires dwelling coverage to equal the total lent amount. Thus, instantly overinsured.
I can't comment on the lack of available coverage in Southern CA, since I don't live there nor I am totally familiar with the situation. What I do know is this: if you live near the interface and refuse to mitigate, it seems like that would be the last house I'd want to insure, don't you think? Why would I want to insure an house that is the most likely to burn down? That might not be your situation, so again, I can't say why for sure.
"Drastic rates between companies". I assume you mean drastic rate differences. Think of insurance as any product with supply and demand. When a company has many, many homes in a given area, it may become overexposed there. It may then have borne the brunt of a storm (or wildfire). The premiums respond to that. Or it may want to pare back its exposure there without cancelling policies or freezing sales. Prices increase to slow demand. People have asked us this. "Why are you so high? Company X is $200 less". What I don't understand is why are you asking? First, what difference does it make WHY? We are. If you don't like the premium for the policy offered, you know where you can get it cheaper somewhere else. All I can tell a person is, you get what you pay for. Somebody's got a cut-rate premium because something else is cut-rate, whether it be claim rep training, customer service staffing or worse, its reserves.
Anyway, I know this post will only prompt more allegations that I'm a crook and I screw people out of their money and never pay, so I won't respond any further to you, Chuck. All I can say is, until you prove otherwise, I believe you're a troll. And they've come and gone many times here.
Corey
Bingo ...!
What a funny quincedence, and it seems they never post any information on their profile either .. I guess that cross they carry is too heavy to hit those extra keys ......
Terry
firstly, let me thank in advance for the help.
I've started looking at some sub-10K used cars, and the first problem I see is that carfax and autocheck return different number of records for a car. So which report should I purchase, or is it wiser to purchase both. Take for eg, VIN# 1FAFP3835YW175218 I was looking at at getauto. When I run the free check Carfax says it has 4 records, Autocheck states it has 8. Typically, autocheck seems to have more records. Any suggestions?
thx.
so do you suggest I should buy monthly services for both Autocheck and Carfax? In my earlier post I just wanted to find out if one was decisively better and comprehensive than the other.
One more question - how to choose the mechanic for testing out the car of interest. I just know one mechanic in my area, and wouldn't know if he was good :>. As you might have guessed, my knowledge about assessing a used car is abysmal. Now, is there any place on the web reviewing mechanics and garages?
CARFAX is my hands down favorite although auto check provides a good service. Carfax is a service the most dealers use, so that's a good recommendation.
I (like everyone, I'll bet) have ideas for running a better dealership, of course. You know, more honesty, etc, no overpriced extras ("if you'd like to protect your finish, there's a great detail place down the road"). Maybe figure out how to add some value-services that most car dealers don't offer; aftermarket stereos and stuff like that, or something, I dunno yet. Besides, the nearest Mazda dealer to my own is an hour drive away, so I figure there's a market (there MUST be, with all the new Mazdas driving around...).
Of course, your going to need a builder/contractor/architect at the build site that "can" meet and/or exceed all of the franchise requirements and the city/county, and it gets into a big battle of size, direction, signs and sign posting (have you bought a new sign lately, ain't cheap, runs about $55,000 for one) height, dimensions, frontage, driveway size, traffic variance and you pay for the traffic change when they do a traffic measure ...
Then comes the building .. must meet the dealer/manufacturers requirements, plus pass the city/county specs .. so you have the showroom, service department, parts department, parts storage area, showroom frontage, inventory frontage, storage requirements, inventory requirements, people requirements, and all of the plumbing, electrical, air conditioners/heat and all that goes with, plus meet all of the Fed requirements ...
Then you have the actual build, thats always fun - remember, your money is tick-tick ticking away, because a 9 month contract can take 15+ months (and then some) because of city/county requirements can change with a new counceleman/woman, or the wrong supplies or half of the guys show up for work hungover a few times, or the cement pore is incorrect and/or the level is 2 degree's off the build sheets .... and that doesn't include the final closing of the financing, calling the builder 105 times because he went blind on the rear quarter dimensions, the inventory, getting the proper employee's, office furniture, computers, hand towels or the light bulbs .............. maybe your starting to get the "gist" of this ..?
Getcha about $2.5/$3,0 mill and that "might" get the doors open, and you better have at least another $700,000/$900,000 just for the "grins and glory" on the standby ~ ya know, the: "just in case money" -- then after all that, all you have to worry about is Day-1 .. .l.o.l..... nothin' too it ..... this is all before you can see Dime one.!
Terry ;^}