Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

bobst · January 2005

In my scenario, the salesman did not say the customer did not qualify for 6%. He only said they would not offer 6% unless the warranty was also purchased.

It is like when I offer $20K for a car. It doesn't mean that is all the money I have. It only means that is all I choose to offer.

Heck, since I don't see any sham, maybe I should be an F&I guy.

mikefm58 · January 2005

<< have to buy the warranty to qualify for the 6% - you obviously already do - it's a sham. >>

Why do you feel that's a sham, but the salesman who was offered X$ by a customer for a purchase, but tried to get a little bit more to pad his pocket, isn't a sham? Even though he could make the deal at the original offer.

In both cases, the salesman and the F&I guy, they're just trying to make a bit more. And again, the consumer needs to be educated on what price he should be expected to pay for the car and what financing he should expect, which they should have already lined up before going to the dealer.

Sheesh, I'm a consumer and I'm sticking up for these guys....LOL.

stickguy · January 2005

This it hard for me to say, but I think Bobst made the same point I did. It's fine for the F&I person to offer different rates under different conditions, the same way it is fine for them to mark-up a bank rate (assuming they stay within the law). They just have to be upfront about what they are offering.

Lying about the manufacturers promotional program of course is wrong.

If you don't like the rate or terms the dealer offers, you can feel free to get your own financing.

Some buyers might actually understand the logic that the dealer is willing to make less on the financing if they can make some $ on the warranty.

OK< strike that last thought. I forgot that no buyer thinks the dealer should make anything ;->

imidazol97 · January 2005

" The only difference is, Syms like all of the other clothing stores (like furniture and jewelry stores) have a 80/120/200%+ mark-up .... most car dealers are trying to survive off a 3-7% mark-up"

Clothing store has clothing that doesn't sell. They mark it down and mark it down. Throw it out or give it a charity when it doesn't sell. Investment cost lost.

Every other store has clothing that's similar since anyone can sell clothing that's a dup or ripoff of items.

***************

Automobile dealer marks down the automobile. Get incentive from company to sell difficult-to-move model or gets end-of-year incentive money.

Buyer comes along offers a price near invoice. Doesn't realize dealer gets $2000 or $5000 to help move that $25000 car. Buyer gets upped in the FI office with mop-n-glow and higher finance rate for the kickback and so on. Still makes a good profit.

Car dealer only competes with other dealers for their brand of clothing -- Honda vs. Honda.

As I indicated in an earlier post I haven't seen any boxes turned into furniture (or clothing) stores because the dealer could make more money that way.

kyfdx · January 2005

Don't want to beat a dead horse...but..

Check this out.. It doesn't say specifically that this was in the F&I office, but it is the kind of behavior that bothers me...

subaru_man, "Subaru Crew: 2005+ Subaru Legacy/Outback" #5998, 4 Jan 2005 10:58 pm

It is a fairly short and concise story..

driftracer · January 2005

Because he's covering up the fact that you qualify for the 6% regardless, but only offers it if he makes additional profit - that's a lie.

stickguy · January 2005

<<<Because he's covering up the fact that you qualify for the 6% regardless, but only offers it if he makes additional profit - that's a lie. >>>

I thought it was routine practice to pad/mark-up the rate in the F&I office? Did you (do you) always quote the absolutely lowest rate someone qualifies for, no mark-up?

The key thing is, if you say you qualify for 8%, than it is lying. If you say I will offer you 8%, it's business.

Again, nuances.

kyfdx · January 2005

True.. but, to say you can "only" qualify for 6% if you buy a warranty.. That would be a lie..

If it is straightforward.. "If you buy the warranty, I'll knock the interest rate down to 6%, but I won't give it to you, otherwise".. that would be different... In fact, under that scenario, it could be entirely possible that the buyer does NOT qualify for 6%, and the dealer is buying down the rate..

But, I don't think that is the way it usually happens.. Usually, it is a flat-out lie..

regards,

kyfdx

driftracer · January 2005

what I'm talking about.

driftracer · January 2005

strong lenders and have strong relationships (hopefully), they can buy the money cheaper than you can at your bank, and mark it a point or two, equalling your bank rate, and make a profit. They do this because they provide a service of securing financing for your car purchase.

In PA, interestingly, if you ASK the F&I person "is that the best rate I qualify for", they have to give their buyrate (I'm paraphrasing).

stubborn1 · January 2005

... if you have done your howework and gotten pre-approved thru a credit union or other financial institution. All you need to do is tell them what your bank can do for you and see what they can offer. Worst case, you stick with the financing your bank offered you.

I would expect the F&I person to offer me two choices:

1. Try and beat the rate the bank gave me, or

2. Offer me a slightly higher rate with the warranty included.

Since I already know what I should be paying per month, I can make a judgment call if the warranty is worth it. If I could get a warranty for an extra $10 or so per month, I really don't care what rate they are giving me.

migraine777 · January 2005

Not sure about nationwide, but in Florida, this practice is HIGHLY illegal. Has been for years. My suggestion is to find a dealer who plays straight. You have a right to know your BUY rate, which is the rate at which the dealer was able to get you financed. However, with Honda at least, special interest rates are usually fixed and the dealers are set as to what they can and can't give you....don't be rude about it, but you do have a right to know. At least in Florida...=)

isellhondas · January 2005

I don't think a customer has a right to know a dealer's buy rate and more than they have a right to know what the dealer paid for the car they are buying.

I mean, if the rate they are offered is acceptable why would that matter? If they don't like that rate they can either not buy the car or shop around on their own for a better rate.

Honda's special rates are, indeed fixed but this time, it was on a scale based on the customers credit score. 2.9%, 3.9% or 4.9&.

It's possible that this customer fell short of qualifing for the 2.9 rate. Maybe they bought the rate down with some of the profit in te extended warranty?

I have no idea what happened.

guitarzan · January 2005

If a car company advertises its finance division's subsidized rate, in order to move cars, either on TV, or radio, or newspaper, or anywhere, a customer who qualifies for the finance division's loan should get that subsidized loan! They can't advertise a low rate, then leave it to the dealer's to pad it for additional profit! A subsidized rate is subsidized for a reason: To move cars, not to make profit for the dealer.

Now, if they have rates they do not advertise, they do not overtly offer it to the public, then the dealer can pad it all they want.

I read the Subaru post where the dealer pressured the customer into an extended warranty/oil changes. People need to get informed: The days of the dealer telling customers that the car must be serviced there, or there is a risk of voiding the warranty, need to end. Computer salespeople do the same thing. I had a co-worker who made little old ladies cry by pressuring them into extended warrantees. But guess what-the boss LOVES that!

driftracer · January 2005

Here's a hint, though - you CAN'T mark up a subsidized rate - can't do it. I've dealt with all of the manufacturer lender arms, and none allow marking up rates, like Honda's 2.9 or GM's 0% - that's the rate, period.

kyfdx · January 2005

They have a subsidized 1.9% rate on certain vehicles... that dealers can mark up to 2.9%..

But, of course... they don't advertise it..

cartalk · January 2005

Regarding the advertised subsidized finance rate, it is very common for BMW dealers to mark-up the BMWFS rate for additional profit. For example, this past fall the advertised finance rate was 1.9% (for terms up to 60 months) and most, not all, dealers would not move off of 2.9%, generating an additional 1% profit on the financed amount.

A customer would have the knowledge that they were buying in at the 1.9% rate but the local dealer would say there was no moving off the rate.

kyfdx · January 2005

"Special low rates on CPO units!!"

But, they never say what it is... You can find out, but not directly from BMW..

cartalk · January 2005

It was advertised on new vehicles in the newspaper. Only saw the lease rates on TV.

raleighwolf · January 2005

Ok,

So the scenario where my wife and I purchased a Odyssey and qualified for the 2.9% rate and the F&I manager told us we HAD to purchase the Warranty in order to get the rate....well, this IS VERY illegal. In fact many Attorney Generals around the SE are cracking down on this practice.

I spoke with attorney and other friends of mine in the auto business. All of them say I have an extreamly strong case. One guy that is a cousin of my wife that works for an extreamly large dealer in the SE says his owner would just give me the van if this was brought to his attention. The attorney want to represent me and thinks we can get a large settlement.

This is a smaller dealer group so not sure what they are going to do. I could really get ugly with an attorney. At this point the owner has called me several times and I agreed that he can just give me the warranty and he is going to fire the F&I girl. I just don't want this happening to anyone else.

BEWARE. This seems to be common practice. I even told her that it was illegal to do that and she argued with me. So, look out...dealer are liars

steine13 · January 2005

Lots of dealers are liars.

Lots of customers are liars.

But to say "look out... dealer[s] are liars" isn't nice, and it isn't tolerated around here.

I also think you got lied to; I think it is illegal; and I do NOT think you have a case, unless you have written documentation for the scam.

This isn't nice, and it isn't right, but is it really worth going to court over???

-Mathias

raleighwolf · January 2005

Mathias,

I have admition from the owner and GM that this is illegal. As for calling them LIARS when it is there practice to perform this scam, I have that right in any forum. America allows for freedom of speech.

Everyone I have spoken to says I have a case. Including the Attorney General of SC. Thanks for your legal advice though.

Yes, it is worth going to court over to teach dealers a lesson. That is why they do it. The consequences are not steep enough.

mikefm58 · January 2005

Be careful raleighwolf, you said in post 2266 "dealers are liars". There are many fine folks in the biz that post here that are far from liars.

Granted, you dealt with someone that lied to you, but don't make blanket statements. I'm sure some customers have lied. How would you feel if someone said "customers are liars"?

In regards to your lawsuit, I hope you have something in writing. It would be difficult to prove otherwise.

driftracer · January 2005

but it's simply a "he said/she said" situation that even the most agressive attorney will have no luck with. A judge wants to see some "meat" in a case, not just an accusation.

Kirstie_H · January 2005

No, it isn't acceptable to call all dealers liars. First amendment rights don't apply to privately-owned entities. Now there's some legal advice that I suggest you put to use, before some posts start disappearing.

Let's get off the name calling and stick to facts.

rroyce10 · January 2005

.... **At this point the owner has called me several times and I agreed that he can just give me the warranty and he is going to fire the F&I girl** ........ you just answered your own questions.



          **The attorney want to represent me and thinks we can get a large settlement** ...

             Settlement for what.?



         The Dealer principle (the owner) has done the right thing, he found the problem, addressed it and handled it, you've lost nothing and gained everything -- end of story.

            In the meantime, I'm sure another ambulance will be rolling by anytime now, and your "attorney" can chase that ....

                                Terry.

isellhondas · January 2005

Any business is only as good as their worst employee. The owner probably had no idea what his F&I person was telling customers.

Sounds like he did the right thing.

I would move on with life and enjoy your new car!

jif · January 2005

raleighwolf,

although i despise blanket statements about my profession.

i do commend you on calling out the f&i girl and getting compensation for her shameful practices.

it is people like her who give us honest dealers a bad name.

jif · January 2005

amen

this is the only way to make sure you leave no money on the table.

you should bring this info just as you would your drivers license, insurance info, trade title, or payoff when you go to contract your new vehicle..

steine13 · January 2005

" America allows for freedom of speech. "

Aside from the legal stuff, which kirstie adressed, there's always

Steiner's Law of The Internet:

"Anybody invoking the First Amendment to defend a statement made online should probably not have made that statement"

-Mathias

kyfdx · January 2005

Steiner's Law of The Internet

I have to start writing this stuff down...

imidazol97 · January 2005

Go back to visit and take a look in the FI office and see if she's gone for real, or if the manager was just talking tough for your benefit...

k1922 · January 2005

I've taken a two year hiatus and have returned to see that everyone is still here on these boards trying to figure out who is worse, the client or the salesperson.

After reading through your posts, I am decidedly unsure.

I have to confess that while I am a veteran salesperson, I see both sides clearly. I am disgusted that dealerships still exist where salespeople and management are up to the same old tricks, while throwing in a few new ones they must have picked up at a cheap seminar.

You have finance people tricking you into purchasing extended warranties, when all they really have to do is show you the statistics and outstanding labor rates in service departments. You have salespeople that sell cars out from under you and lie about everything under the sun.

Who can you trust?

Unfortunately, consumers lie too.

I am fortunate to work at a reputable store with ethical salespeople, service personnel and management.

You learn to treat people with fairness and equality. Your managers show you through example, and unfortunately at some stores we still have Toothless Fred running the show.

What I find interesting is that while most of you purchase a new or used vehicle every three-five years (assumption), you still spend an extraordinary amount of time prodding and poking at salespeople (just politely enough NOT to have your post deleted).

I understand why you do this, I really do. You have a tremendous amount of anger and bitterness as a result of getting mistreated or ripped-off.

Although I understand, how do you find the time to write these posts?

On the flip side, the same salespeople are complaining about the cheapest, ugliest acting clients that somehow always find their way into your store.

These people want to pay $1000 back of invoice and do not believe that you are TRULY MAKING ONLY $100. $100 for five hours with someone who treats you like a common criminal and THEN gives you a poor survey because everyone hates car dealers, right?

Remember, a good salesperson sells 12-15 cars per month. Do the math.

On top of everything else, they want $2000 more for their trade that obviously isnt worth the money (even though KBB says its worth it)

And we all know Kelly Blue Book is a real person that purchases trade-ins and sells vehicles, right?! 

Meanwhile, youre stuck with this 2002 Dodge Neon that you are buried in that no person in their right mind would pay that kind of money for. Then in April, a wholesaler is kind enough to tow it off your lot!

I am here to tell all of you: I understand. Do I ever. Really, the above mentioned client is 1 in 7. Most people are really very nice.

How do we win?

Consumers:

I understand that price is an important factor.

Next time you are doing your research on crash test ratings, 4 wheel disc brakes and rebates, take a moment to look at individual CSI scores. Talk to salespeople. Get a feeling about the salesperson and dealership and keep in mind that people really do make mistakes. Sometimes it is a trick, but most times its an honest-to-goodness mistake.

Salespeople:

Consumers think the worst of you. Period. Dont perpetuate the negative stereotype by lying and cheating. Set an example. Be different. If your store has a poor reputation, why do you work there? If your managers encourage you to lie, please go work somewhere else. I know some people can be rude and obnoxious, believe meI sold new cars for three years. Some of these people are taught that being rude is the only way they can get what they want.

The best advice I EVER received was this: If you have to take a mini on a new car, take it and take it fast. Dont be overly concerned with a thorough demonstration after F & I. No matter what you do you will likely receive a poor survey anyway, so move on to your next client.

So now yell at me!

Just kidding. Have a great year everyone and try to be nice to one another.

raleighwolf · January 2005

good post K1922.

Here is the thing.

Usually I do all kinds of homework and spend all kinds of resources researching a new car. This time, my wife and I just went to "look". We really like the sales guy and thought everyone at this dealership was so nice. I wanted to buy from them. I was 4 hours from my house on Christmas visitation and did not want to go back to Raleigh and buy from someone else after this guy had been so nice.

So I trusted them. Worked out a decent deal on the trade in and basically paid MSRP for the minivan.

So the experience was a good one save the price I paid but I figured I would only save about 1000 bucks if I shopped around. And I liked the sales guy.

We get tot he F&I gal and she was really nice too. So we are feeling comfortable and it was really the most pleasant car buying experience I have ever had. I was relaxed and not worried about numbers and being taken. Then she took me.

At the time of the transaction I told her I thought it was illeagal to do that. She just said, "that is the way we are offering it". So, I trusted her.

When I got home I talked to some buddies I have in the industry and they assured me that this practice was illegal. I then talked to an attorney and a friend that owns a dealership. They also confirmed that not only was this illeagal I could "Own" the dealership.

That is not what I wanted to do. I just wanted to be fair. So, I called the F&I girl back to give her an opportunity to be honest and fix the issue. She LIED again. Then mentioned a waiver' she could apply for that would make it so we could get the 2.9% with out having to buy the warranty. She only gets a few of these a month. At this point I went a little ballistic on her and called her out. She still stuck to her story.

I hung up with her and called the GM. Told him the whole story and he, with out questioning me, told me he would refund the money and that it was illeagel to do. He acted as if she did this on her own. I don't belive him.

So, If I offended anyone I applogize. Not all dealers are Liars. Just this one.

Kirstie_H · January 2005

Glad to see you back!

I think that the attitudes and advice of salespeople on these boards helps consumers understand that quality salespeople can be found, are an asset, and shouldn't be treated poorly.

It takes a long time and a lot of hard, thankless work to correct a negative stereotype, and unfortunately, the "old style" high-pressure sales techniques have been emblazoned in the memory of many a customer.

The best consumer advice we get on here can be summed up quite simply:

1) Do your homework - know what's reasonable to expect from your trade-in, know a reasonable price for your vehicle, and be aware of your credit, available rebates, and interest rates. A vehicle is too big a purchase to rush into without some research.

2) Don't give your business to a crummy dealership just to "get it over with." Rewarding hucksters and rude salespeople hurts everybody, including the customer and all of the good salespeople.

river7 · January 2005

Just turned in a 2000 model car for a 2003. I ask the dealer does the 2003 have an alarm, "no". My 2000 had a very nice alarm installed by the dealer I originally bought it from. So come F&I time low and behold they are selling an alarm special with remote start for $499 installed. So I get them to "only" $349 and go for it. Get the car home and start looking around it better and there is a second LED from where another alarm used to be before I bought it. So I was curious if they purposely ripped out the first alarm on the 2003 to sell me a new one. Yup.

To confirm I called on my original 2000 car that was now for sale on the lot (confirmed the VIN on the web) and guess what......no alarm anymore. Nice self created sales opportunity. I'm surprised they keep the seats and tires on.

R

k1922 · January 2005

Please don't apologize.

I am not offended by any of the posts on this board. I completely understand the frustration that many consumers have.

Unfortunately, one unethical person and or practice ruins the whole experience. Your salesperson loses, too, because while he or she fulfilled all of your expectations, the finance person wiped all of that out.

Next time you or anyone else find yourself in that situation, raise a red flag and ask to speak to the sales manager in charge. Do not ask to speak to the salesperson because they have little or no authority and will only do as they are told.

In this instance and I'm sure others, your instincts proved to be true. Tell the manager that you feel something unethical and unlawful is going on and you don't feel comfortable going through with the transaction.

The mere threat of leaving without purchasing is enough to stop illegal and unfair practice.

About five years ago there was an automotive group in my area that was "packing" payments; meaning they were sneaking service contracts, life and disability, and rust proofing into the deal and quoting payments reflecting these extra's without the knowledge of the consumer.

Apparently, this went on for years before consumers caught on. This automotive group was sued and as punishment there was a hefty fine and the attorney general required that their finance department tape and record all transactions for a three year time period.

I can't believe that some dealerships are still getting away with this!

You know what? Even after this group was found to have been fraudulent, people STILL purchase vehicles from them!

Very sad.

Anyway, for all of us in the automotive industry that are ethical, I do apologize for your poor experience. Perhaps on your survey (which undoubtedly will be poor, with good reason) you can mention that despite everything, your salesperson was great.

Take care.

k

mikefm58 · January 2005

Don't be so hard on the dealer. I for one, would NEVER buy a vehicle with an alarm. To me, it just adds a few hundred bucks to the vehicle and I'd have no idea if it was installed correctly.

k1922 · January 2005

What is a "huckster"?

My grandfather was also in the automotive industry and he had all sorts of old-timer sayings that I found to be very amusing--

Here is a funny one that always brings a smile to the face.

"Sir, did you want a good buy?"

"Goodbye"!

Or,

"Let me just get the used car factory on the line so I can order just what you're looking for".

Another funny one:

If you're on the phone:

"You want to know what your trade is worth? Sure. Could you hold the phone up to your car? I want to ask it a few questions".

At least we can still laugh...

river7 · January 2005

I'm not being hard in the least. It is thet're perogative to uninstall an item and the consumer's option to reinstall a new one. I just find it intersting that they obviously do this for a reason and they made good cash off me on it. Everyone is entitled to a profit if it is honest.

It isn't the flat out lies that have happened to me just some not so straight forward practices such as removing features from a car so they can sell that feature separately to the new buyer at a larger mark up.

R

driftracer · January 2005

I've worked with, ALL alarm systems, unless they were installed by locally known shops, were taken out - period.

This has nothing to do with profit from selling another system - in fact, none of these groups sold alarm systems at all.

It's about the botched, backyard, shadetree installations that many alarm system get, plus having customers angry that they only get one remote, or being angry because no one knows how to work this XYZ system, or where the kill switch is, or how to lower the tones or sensitivity...

Dealership techs would have to be gurus on every alarm system made to keep these systems in the vehicles - it's just not worth all the grief, poor customer satisfaction, and botched electrical systems...

sjacobson81 · January 2005

k1922 - Excellent post, thanks for the perspective.

Unfortunately, for us "educated consumers" truly looking for the honest dealerships and trustworthy salespeople, the pickings can be pretty slim. For example, I am in the market for a new vehicle in Southern California - considered by many to be the "mecca" of auto dealers. One would think that, with the veritable plethora of dealerships in this area, finding a reputable one selling your chosen make would be a piece of cake.

NONE - I repeat - NONE of the dealers, from Ventura to San Diego, that I have researched has a Better Business Bureau rating higher than "B", and the majority are rated in the C-class (C, CC, or CCC). The ones with whom I'd like to deal have several outstanding complaints against them, and less than satisfactory ratings. Also, two of those are listed on one of the TV stations' investigative reports websites for shady dealing!

What's a consumer to do?

Goodness knows there are plenty of lousy customers out there - dealers weed us out by running a FICO, profiling based upon the latest sales seminar, etc. But it's also very hard to find - at least in my personal experience, in this market - a dealer with a truly honorable reputation, using the available tools at my disposal.

Suggestions are most welcomed, please!

k1922 · January 2005

for driftracer. This is infact true. I sold an Audi TT a few years ago and had no idea that it had an aftermarket alarm system on it. Nor did I understand how it worked.

The next day, my client could not start his vehicle. We towed it to our service department where the tech, after an hour, discovered the alarm system. The alarm system had been triggered, preventing the TT from being started.

Our policy now is that after the used vehicle inspection is performed, any after market alarm systems found are removed and thrown out or can be purchased by a dealership employee.

I have rarely heard of a dealership removing one aftermarket alarm system and installing it on another vehicle. That sounds like more work than it's worth for $300. (Paying $108 labor rate to install an alarm and make $200?)

driftracer · January 2005

they'd sell you a new system, one that they sell.

Having been on both sides of the fence (sales and service), I'm not a fan of alarm systems at all. I've seen them installed by great shops with great reputations and still cause electrical gremlins, ultimately costing the car owner their warranty.

isellhondas · January 2005

A lot of aftermarket alarms are garbage. They cause more trouble than they are worth. The go off on our lot by themselves etc.

As far as I'm concerned, they are a liability rather than an asset.

Exactly why we often just remove them!

k1922 · January 2005

In my state we have a similar rating system, but I have a few suggestions:

1. Good old-fashioned word of mouth.

Frankly, any store can boast of having a high CSI score--which changes month to month so how can you keep up?

I would highly suggest speaking with a few close friends, acquaintances and family members. Where would they recommend going?

2. Stop by a few dealerships. Speak to a few salespeople. Take a tour of their facility. Ask yourself a few important questions:

A. Is facility clean and well maintained?

B. Is the entire staff friendly--from the receptionist to the GM? Do they appear to enjoy their jobs?

If the majority of the staff is friendly and energetic, that's a good sign. You know when someone is being fake.

C. How do the managers treat their staff? Do the managers beret or insult their staff, or do they treat everyone with respect?

D. Talk to people in the service waiting area. Ask them if they purchased a vehicle from this store. If so, how did they enjoy their experience?

E. Look around you. Many of my previous clients stop by to say hello when I am in the middle of negotiations with a potential client. They are very nice and friendly to me and that gives a potential client a good and positive feeling.

Okay, okay, so if you don't have time for all this, word of mouth works brilliantly. And, trust your instincts. Purchasing from the right store is as important as a low price.

Good luck!

river7 · January 2005

Correct they sold me a Pursuit Alarm and remote start that they sell as their prefered system.

I wouldn't they would sell a used alaram sys separately, they are selling a new one to their customers.

SJ

imidazol97 · January 2005

Thanks for the insight into the ethical dealer's intent.

You didn't say if those dealers pushed alarms as part of the sale or not. If they sell them but don't push them, I agree they've probably saved the customer and themselves some grief on the ones that wouldn't work right.

river7 · January 2005

They probably did save some grief with the alarm removal, however they do push them pretty hard.

Several "this month only special" signs as well as it was one of two things pushed on me in the F&I office.....the alarm "special" and the warranty.

I think this happens to be a situation that just works out well for them. They have a valid reason and it just so happens they can make some cash on the new alarms as well.

SJ

isellhondas · January 2005

Excellent advise that I've given in these forums myself.

Trouble is, for many buyers including people who frequesnt these forums, PRICE is all that matters to them. They will put up with rude stores who pull tricks if they think they can "save" a hundred dollars.

Funny thing is they ofen end up paying more.

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

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