Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

migraine777 · January 2005

I hear ya there, we have a store about 30 miles away from us that is the perfect example.... they say whatever they can to get our customers in the building, then pull a "well, since you're here" line on them...and sadly enough, some of the dopes still buy.

Perfect example from yesterday at work....

...lady comes in on a VP Civic 4dr Automatic....a blowout car basically. We advertise them at 14,190...she went to the aformentioned dealership on the promise of a 13,600 price....well...when she got there the GENERAL MANAGER comes to talk to her. "Well ma'am, yes we will sell the car to you for 13,600, but the car you are looking at has blahblahblah on it, so it's 14,800"... when asked about one that didn't have the "stuff", the manager told her they could order her one for an additional $600 'special order fee' .....which we all know Honda doesn't do. .......she bought it anyway....assured she was getting the car for 500 less...

...all that to show you....bad business is still business.....be careful consumers, we're not all bad guys...=)

k1922 · January 2005

I see where you're coming from. I used to be bitter and FULL of resentment towards people who drive across town to save $100. Personally, I don't understand this.

I frequent grocery, furniture and other retail stores that charge a bit more for their products.

I do so because I receive better services for paying a little more money

Yes, I pay more.

Customer service is extremely important to me.

Some people do not care about good customer service.

The question isn't WHY are they driving across town to save $100--the question is WHY SHOULDN'T they--particularly if their expectations are low to begin with. They don't understand or place any value in high customer service because they have never received it.

Oh, well. Why be bitter? Take the high road and give them them what they want. It will probably be one of the most important things they have ever done and will be most proud of.

driftracer · January 2005

My groups never sold alarms at all, if that's what you're asking.

isellhondas · January 2005

Oh, I'm not bitter but it does get frustrating sometimes after spending hours of time with them.

This is my tenth year at this and I don't fret the lost sales.

These are the same people I see in service years later demanding we fix something long out of warranty etc or showing us a scratch we "must have put" on their filthy car.

Life is short...

newkiaguy · January 2005

I could meat the nicest salesperson in the world and at the end of the day, I still feel like I paid too much no matter how good the deal might be. I'm on my fifth car from a dealer and each and everytime, despite the heavy price-shopping and netotiating, you always feel like "darn it...they could have done better".

It's the nature of the beast. Whenver people shell out a lot of their hard earned money they always feel that way.

driftracer · January 2005

feelings, but there's lots of folks who never feel confident like that. We see it all the time where someone does months worth of research, the pops in after the purchase, posts their purchase price, and asks "how they did". A little late to ask at that point, no?

You either feel confident in your abilities or you don't, and if you're a low confidence person, and I mean no offense, getting the car straight off the assembly line and having the GM/Ford/Honda CEO show you a bill of lading won't change your mind.

I'm of the school of doing some research, figuring out the packages I want, I've already got a dealer friend, and I make it happen, leaving enough room to keep my friend a friend, but not financing his next vacation.

Then, I move on, done deal. You can worry yourself into alcoholism or the need for prescription drugs on this or any other purchase. Life is much too short to get all anguished over whether you could have saved $50 on something that costs between $20-60k...

isellhondas · January 2005

I love it when people come here and ask " Did I pay too much"?

Without fail, someone will come along and rain on their parade.

Man, life is short!

rroyce10 · January 2005

..... Spend a little time and read the "Prices Paid" board .. there is hundreds upon hundreds of posts from folks that drop 4/5 posts in a short period of time, get some great info from some good people, then post back "did I pay too much" after they have bought the vehicle ....

               If it's okay for a Furniture store to make $1,200 on that $2,200 couch, or a jeweler to make $800 on that new $1,500 watch, or even better yet, let the boat dealer make $15,000 on that $45,000 sport boat - and lets go one step farther, it's ok to let the Callaway golf store make $350 on those new $600 woods and drivers ~~ but why isn't it okay to let the auto dealer make $500 on that $25,000 vehicle ..?!?

                           confused,

                                 Terry.

imidazol97 · January 2005

> Furniture store to make $1,200 on that $2,200

Does a furniture store make 12 on a $2200 couch?

If that were the case, the store where I bought my cars would be a furniture store for the profitability. There isn't one within 20 miles in most directions. It would pay more than you're saying selling GMs does...

There must be that huge markup on $60 labor in service department and markup in parts to compensate for what they're not making in the sale?

Kirstie_H · January 2005

Let's try to get back on topic - dealer's tricks - rather than focusing on dealership profit. Most of us know by now that "profit" isn't a trick!

Kirstie_H · January 2005

Off-topic posts removed. Carry on.

escortowner · January 2005

I have an opinion on your customer service comment. I must say in general though - I came to this site thinking I was going to learn something, but instead it seems more like a chat room instead of a place where I can learn about the tips and tricks. None the less, some of the messages are quite intreaging.

Anyway - my comment - Customer service expectations vs. price is a dynamic situation. Ultimately any customer is looking for the best VALUE which would be the combination of Price for the product, the quality of the product that serves the function you are looking for, and the customer service to complete the transaction.

There is a huge difference between purchasing a car for the lowest price and buying your groceries, or picking up your dry cleaning.

As you said earlier - you buy a car once every 3-5 years. This would be a very transactional relationship. If I am working in a transactional relationship, I am going for the best price - PERIOD (assuming the actual product is exactly the same). If I happen to come across an honest dealer that I would deal with again - great.

In fact, my last car purchase was the easier, and quickest I ever had - I had been negotiating with one dealer for a while, and when I saw them mark up the car an additional $700 for window tinting, I said F- this, and told another dealer if you can get the car to this price I will buy from you. An hour later, he came back and said he could do it. In the end, I ended up with a great deal easily.

Now I live 1,000 miles away, but have been looking for a new car, so when I was in town there over the holidays, I went back to see him about another car I had seen advertised. You know what he did - he advised me NOT to lease a car through him because the tax laws in Texas are different and I would end up getting screwed. So - If I ever move back there, you think I will go to him? for sure - if, he has the car I want, and if he can get me the best deal out there. I too believe in customer service - but at what expense? Customer SERVICE is just that - a Service - Should I Finance a 1 time Service over 3-5 years because of a 2 hour conversation? If you pay more for the car because the person is nice, that is essentially what you are doing - you are financing the service rather than the car.

Switching to the groceries or drycleaning you may go do that sort of things 3-5 times a Month. This would be more of a collaborative relationship. There is a reason I go across town to my same dry cleaners I went to before they moved. They do a good job for a good price - a great VALUE.

As far as someone going across town to save $100 on a car - lets put it into perspective a little bit. That $100 by the end of financing will be more like $125-130. For $125-130 I could practically buy a plane ticket somewhere. Now, realistically - I probably wouldn't quibbel over $100 - however, I would like to turn the situation a little bit.

Why would any DEALER LOSE a customer over $100 if they knew they could get the customer to purchase from them for $100?

By the way - I liked your note earlier about the customers vs. the sales people.

escortowner · January 2005

I read some interesting information - I think it was in "the chronicles of a car salesman" here on Edmunds - but I can't recall. Anyway, The number 1 moneymaker in a dealership is the Service department. In fact, I don't know if this is the case for all dealerships, but I know they usually charge the book price to get a job done, however, their cost is the difference between how long it takes to get the job done, and how long the book says it will take. the rest goes to the mechanic (or a %of the rest).

For example - say the book says it will take 5 hours to do a clutch at $90/hour plus parts. That is $450 in labor. If the mechanic gets it done in 3 hours there is $180 in fluff there that the mechanic gets, or a percentage thereof.

The second most profitable area of a dealership is used cars. Aparently new cars is hardly profitable at all. It is better used to get foot traffic for the used cars.

I went to CARMAX and got a quote for my car and they offered me about $4,000 less in trade in for it than another similar one on the lot. The difference - mine had half the miles, was a more desireable engine, and was in perfect condition with more options.

When I questioned the sales guy that offered the trade in - he simply said it takes an average of $3,000 per car to get it on the lot. I laughed for 2 reasons.

1 - I saw many of the cars they had taken on trade in and mine was nowhere near the condition of the others - it was in far superior condition.

2 - The thought of it taking $3,000 to get a car on the lot - I know there are building expenses etc, but the marginal cost between one car to another is small. In fact, it is probably just the cost of the labor plus a little extra. $3,000 for someone making $30/ hour - which is likely to be high for an average hourly rate of everyone working on the car - is 100 hours of labor. I don't think there is someone working for 2.5 weeks solid to get a car onto the lot. - especially one that is in perfect condition. (not even a door ding - knock on wood).

mirth · January 2005

escort-

$3000, sounds high, but $1000-2000 is probably right. It's not the labor so much I think, but parts (tires mostly). If your tires were brand new, then it would certainly be under $1000 to prep. If your car is beautiful but the tires are bald and they still need to change the oil, etc., it adds up.

As far as comparing Dell direct computer sales to buying a car, it's a comparison that's been made many times on this board and doesn't hold up. Computers don't have the same issues (test drives, trade-in appraisal, financing large sums of money, tax and title work) that car buying does, so although it sounds good they're not really comparable.

dbauer · January 2005

...and my father's sister knows this guy who used to be a porter at a small used car lot. the guy he worked for once knew this fella who had a cousin who bought a car once. i asked him and he said i can get PAID!!!!

please...

dbauer · January 2005

always makes me curious to know what the removed posts were...like watching a train wreck or something.

;-)

imidazol97 · January 2005

>always makes me curious to know what the removed posts were

Edmunds might make a webpage of deleted posts and charge for access -- much like Jerry Springer show outtakes. Grin.

The problem with a few people at dealers taking advantage of some people less than shrewd at shopping their financing and purchase is that it taints the image of all F&I people. They are all painted with the guilty brush.

That's certainly not true. But I have run from dealerships where the story got deep from the salesman trying to sell me. When I went back to the place where I had bought previous cars it was great just to haggle over the price knowing there wouldn't be a lot of tricks and treat after that.

escortowner · January 2005

well....check out the Japanese dealership system. It isn't the same as Dell, but - it is closer than what we have here in the States. The dealerships over there are owned by the manufacturers.

But the customer service aspect is much different to help taylor to the needs you just described.

when they first started selling over here they had to change their distribution approach etc.

escortowner · January 2005

By the way - the $3000 is what I was told, not what I thought up. I also tend to wonder how much effort dealerships put into keeping their replacement costs low.

My general feeling is - in the auto industry on average they will try to rip you off wherever they can.

Autoshops, dealerships, wherever. If you share your knowledge of the product with them, they typically will back off a bit.

Anyway, I am getting into hypothetical land now.

blh7068 · January 2005

"Why would any DEALER LOSE a customer over $100 if they knew they could get the customer to purchase from them for $100?"

If there's room to work that deal will most likely get done.

You have to keep in mind that sometimes there simply is no room left. However a sticking point in negotiations is the customer perception that there's always $$$ left on the table...

raleighwolf · January 2005

dbauer,

what in the world are you talking about?

migraine777 · January 2005

I'll agree 3000 is kinda high, but as mentioned, it depends on what needs to be done to the car....and not YOUR opinion of how wonderful it is, but the overall consensus of both the people that do this every day, AND the people who will be looking to buy your car next.

Secondly, I like to think of dealers as looking to make a profit on every aspect, yes....not rip you off. Unfortunately some are out for this very effect, and they make the rest look bad. Profit margin, yes...and as much as most consumers hate to admit it, we are in the business to make a profit. Selling cars, parts, service, warranties, is not our weekend stint to keep our good figure..it's a job. You go to work to make money, and believe me, some of us can do it honestly...=)

dbauer · January 2005

also, why do i want to be basically an unpaid consultant AND take a beating on the survey? thats like a suicidal person trying to shoot themself in the head TWICE.

dbauer · January 2005

nevermind.

isellhondas · January 2005

The dealer has no fear of loss. It's a nice car that's in high demand and he knows the next person will pay a lot more for it.

Why take a stupid deal?

escortowner · January 2005

I understand that part of the opinions etc. However, when you take a 2-year old car that has less than 15,000 miles on it and lump it in with the 5 year old cars with 100,000 miles on it and try to use the ...."well on average" bit, it just doesn't fly.

It is like acting as though every car has to have the same work done to it to get it onto the lot.

And you know what....there is nothing wrong with making money. But inordinate amounts of money, well, I tend to do that myself, but not have it done at my expense.

Believe me, on my first car - they made enough profit on that thing to pay a commission to all of future car salesmen that I buy a car from.

I don't blame the new car salesmen - shoot, one of the ones I am dealing with now is probably the nicest one I have met. It just so happens that the car I am looking at has huge rebates, and out of 12 cars, 10 of them are still on the lot since September, and they were there before I started looking.

bobst · January 2005

In the 1980's a friend of mine bought an Oldsmobile that had been sitting on the lot for about a year. Even the battery was dead. He drove that car for about 250K almost trouble-free miles.

The moral - don't be totally against a car that you think might have gotten 'stale' by sitting on a lot.

k1922 · January 2005

Most salespeople and or dealerships will not take care of their clients after the sale because they already got their money..isn't that what all consumers think?

Good customer service is returning phone calls, actually being there when their client has a serious issue with their vehicle:

1. Personally scheduling an appointment in the service department.

2. Providing a loaner vehicle in the event of an emergency, even if the vehicle they purchased does not include rental or loaner vehicles

3. Providing detailed copies of any extended warranties purchased in case such documentation was lost.

4. Picking a client up when they have locked their keys in their vehicle.

There are several other instances.

I'm more motivated to go out of my way for someone who treated me with respect. I don't get terribly excited about helping someone who was rude and didn't truly believe I deserved to make money--even if it was only $100. I dont get excited about helping someone who, no matter what price they received still believe they were taken advantage of.

But, that is my job.

When someone purchases a used vehicle with 80k miles and ten days later the cooling and fuel system goes out, and you purchased the vehicle "as is", who are you going to talk to?

In my state, when you purchase an 80k mile used vehicle and do not buy an extended warranty, you are responsible for this repair and the dealer is not.

Hopefully, you purchased your vehicle at a reputable store and they believe that customer service after the sale is important and will try to take care of you.

I was not frivolously comparing purchasing cars to a box of crackers.

Have a good day!

k1922 · January 2005

I agree with your post.

k1922 · January 2005

"..on my first car--they made enough profit on that thing to pay a commission to all of future car salesmen that I buy a car from".

Being a veteran, I find that very implausible, unless you purchased a Bentley, RR or Maserati. In which case commissions can be anywhere from $10-25k.

The most I've ever made on a vehicle (and I've sold everything used from a Honda to a Ferarri) has been $5500. Keep in mind that this only happened once in eight years.

Take that $5500, subtract $500 for the G.O. (gross overhead) and I take my 30%.

That is $1500 before taxes.

Definitely a good deal, but hardly a commission to pay for the salaries of several salesmen.

What did you purchase when they made so much money?

kyfdx · January 2005

I think he was being facetious....

You know.. after he told his buddies what he paid... the next day, they come to work, and tell him they noticed the dealer was closed up, with a big sign in the window:

GONE TO HAWAII

k1922 · January 2005

Good one!

Let's face it, no matter what any consumers may think, there is not huge money to be made on new vehicles.

The easiest deal I had was when a previous client came in to purchase a new vehicle. There was $1100 profit margin and we agreed to split it.

They have purchased three vehicles since then and that is what we agreed to do in the future. It makes it easy on everyone.

Kirstie_H · January 2005

Let's continue this conversation in Questions for a Car Dealer and leave this one for talking about alleged or actual tricks.

cadillacmike · January 2005

"Let me just get the used car factory on the line so I can order just what you're looking for".

The F&I guy at Ed Morse Cadillac in Tampa FL said this to me when I mentioned that I was looking for a 1992 Brougham with this that & the other option! That's too funny.

cadillacmike · January 2005

"The easiest deal I had was when a previous client came in to purchase a new vehicle. There was $1100 profit margin and we agreed to split it.

They have purchased three vehicles since then and that is what we agreed to do in the future. It makes it easy on everyone."

You agreed to split profit with a customer ????

cadillacmike · January 2005

Post dating my first payment to 45 days instead of 30 days. it made the monthly payments go up by 20-30 dollars. I caught it on the spot. I can't believe that they actually tried to pass that off though. I was royally ticked off and this was 13 years ago!!! i wonder how many others fell for that. Then next time (different dealer) I made sure to know the exact monthly payment before going to sign everything. They matched.

The way to prevent this from happening to you is to EXAMINE the finance / retail credit installment contract. and make sure that your first payment is exactly one month from whatever today's date is. You can also go home or to your car where your laptop is and punch in the rate term, etc into a spreadsheet to get the monthly payment. That's what I did back then, I agreed on the car, came back the next day and caught the higher monthly payment.

A few years ago a dealer agreed to beat my bank's rate (not by much but every little bit helps) so I went for it. Mistake, too many "we need your insurance info" letters and they once actually sent me a bill for insurance!!!!. But overall, they weren't bad, just not as customer friendly as USAA.

More recently, this past August, I had already obtained a rate and loan amount for my wife's next car, so I knew a rate already. Into the F&I office I go (same Cadillac dealer). They already had my info since I was there the day before. Now this is a used car 4.5 years old with 77,000 miles on it (but it was a Cadillac Convertible and so was pricey) so some lenders might have an "issue", so I awasn't expecting much. The F&I person said "well, were able to get "X" rate, but only because your credit was so good" X was some 0.8% HIGHER than USAA had already agreed to loan to me at! I "explained" this to mr F&I. Within 2 minutes X was now "Y" which was about 0.3% LOWER than USAA. I told him I'd think about it. I went back to the salesman's office and called USAA. They lowered their rate to about 0.5% LESS than "Y" so now I'm happy. I could have probably went back to Mr F&I, but remembering the hassles I got from the lender last time, I decided to go with USAA - same company as insurance, so no hassles with insurance binder, they also had the trade's loan so they closed it out electronically and saved me another $30.00 or so, but that messed up the dealer's nice sales sheet so thay had to redo it twice to match all the numbers! Bottom line, be prepared but you can still be had if you are careless.

Next car (this month another used car, a 2005 CTS same dealer), I determined to not even bother with dealer F&I on financing. I called USAA, they told me that "rates had gone up" - by about 1.4% (I guess they're not above a little gamesmanship either), so I asked if they "could do anything about the rate". They asked me to hold. Probably did an instant credit check, lo and behold, I'm back to the same rate as in august (the good rate). So I'm really happy now. F&I was 5 minutes on this car (no trade) mainly the time it took to sign everything.

I must point out that the salesman was real nice about everything (I had been bothering him for 2 months on the latest car and had him looking for that convertible for me for almost 3 YEARS), and the sales manager was also very nice, ran CARFAX reports for me, GM dealerworld summaries and service history for about 20 cars for me, many which were not even in his lot! I could have hammered them on price on the 2005 CTS a little bit (couldn't do that on the convertible, someone else would have bought that car in 1 week or less and besides I put them through ringer with needed service items and got 4 NEW tires and new factory CHROME wheels for no charge), but that would not have been worth it. I'm still friendly with the salesman and sales mgrs, he went and had a front license plate holder installed for my wife's dolphin plate, and is getting proper fitting floormats, etc. (yeah big deal). but I'm happy so who cares how much it cost. it's only money

PS I did ths with only a part time job, my wife is the full time breadwinner (but I'm shipping off onto active duty in a week or so - got to make those payments!)

Are these guys the exception? I don't know. I make it a point to be knowledgable, and have walked away from maly cars / deals at the slightest suspicion of tomfoolery, but at least these guys do not operate a high pressue cooker environment like a lot of the rice burner dealerships. And they seem to be doing ok too, they sold 3 cars I was considering on new years eve before I could make up my mind and then another one in the three days it took me to go back after new years. My salesman had 3 buying customers on the day I bought the CTS, so they must be doing ok (I think he is one of their top selling salesmen).

I think I'll go to a toyota dealer in town and tell them i'm looking for a convertible for my wife and see how that experience goes. Might be interesting...

driftracer · January 2005

"Post dating my first payment to 45 days instead of 30 days. it made the monthly payments go up by 20-30 dollars"

Things that make you go "hmmm" - spent lots of time in F&I...just bought two vehicles, on one, we talked to the F&I lady and changed the payment from 30 days out to 40 days out to fit our bill schedule. On a $20k loan, it changed the payment $3.32. I think that $20-30 a month generalization is a bit overboard....

audia8q · January 2005

I was thinking the samething...

But to be fair....if you finance $318,000 for 60 months at 10%...30 days to first payment vs. 45 days the payment bump is $26

so if he is purchasing a Bentley Azure and actually needed to finance part of it, his example would apply.

danf1 · January 2005

More than a little overboard. If you financed $100,000 at 18% changing a payment to 45 days from 30 would cost $18.78 per month. Maybe he bought a Bentley.

dbauer · January 2005

and im still trying to remember a cadillac convertible from 4.5 years ago...they stopped making the allante (sic) in 1993 or 1994.

isellhondas · January 2005

To each his own, I suppose?

cadillacmike · January 2005

So let's check and see if my fuzzy memory can clarify things a little. Remember rates in 1991 were a bit higher than today, we're talking 12-15% for a car loan back then (at least that's what they were charging my wife). That had a bigger effect on such a practice than it does now.

17,000 at 15% is about 200.00 in interest being capatilized in 15 days, the 36 months payments would amount to $6.00 per month at a ZERO interest rate. so maybe 8-12 / month extra. It was very noticable to me, and if you all think that this is an honorable thing to do to WITHOUT telling a customer that you are doing it and so stand to make an extra $300 out of the customer's pocket, then that's what I expect from industry types.

Yes it's a conversion, Coach Builders LTD, in High Springs FL one of the best conversion shops around. They do current model DeVilles too, but I don't like the new crest.

1993 was the last year for the Allante which I never liked the styling of. The XLR is not mich better looking, but it's a much better built car, but whocan afford 75 THOUSAND for one, especially when the F&I guys are pushing out those payment dates :-)

boomer1b · January 2005

I see a few of those late model custom REAL ragtops posted at some of the Caddy sites.........

A bud in my car club has a 78 Coupe Deville droptop!

cadillacmike · January 2005

were not made at the factory, 1976 was the last year until the Allante in 1987, although highly regarded shops such as Hess & Eisenhart and Superior Coach Builders made conversions from 1977 to the late 80's. They can be real nice or real "chop jobs". H&E and Superior were the last of the "old guard" as it were while Coach Builders LTD is the best of the "new guard".

but now I"m getting off topic...

boomer1b · January 2005

Yea, I know its a aftermarket job.....

HEY !........Stop over to the sedans thread here at Edmunds.....

Check out the Deville thread. A Few Caddy heads there. I wanna hear about your Caddy ragtop !!!!!!

Don't want to get a nasty gram from the host(s)...

cadillacmike · January 2005

My wife won't allow me to have three. I'll go over to the Cadillac forums section and see what' brewing there. Nothing wrong with an aftermarket conversion, H&E and Superior were first class outfits back in 1978.

dreamstar · January 2005

I placed an order yesterday for a 2005 bmw 330Ci convertible. The salesperson tried to sell me an identical one that was a 2004 with additional options for a slightly higher price I was told but I said no. When it came to signing the order form, I was soon concerned about additional costs and making sure to total Out the door price was going to be what I was quoted, I missed some info on the order sheet that might hurt me. There was no year specified for the model I wanted, no order number, nor were all the codes and price quotes for options filled in. I was told it would take 2-3 months for the special ordered vehicle to arrive and left a deposit in check form which I'm sure they already cashed.How will I know if the car "delivered' is really a 2005 let alone the options did not come out of another car? I feel so stupid... please.. help me. What can I do at this point if any to make sure I don't get burned when they call me back in to sign papers upon delivery?? HELP!!

dbauer · January 2005

first, take a breath....there...now listen...

they arent building 2004s anymore at the factory, so an ordered vehicle can only be a 2005. if its still a worry, then look at the VIN of the car that comes in. find the 10th character from the left, and make sure it is a '5'. if it is a '4', then its a 2004. if it IS a 2004, then you have the right of refusal. get your deposit back, and move on.

dealers dont have the time or money to be switching major components just to make a deal, especially when its a new car...there are serious fraud laws that apply.

check the VIN, but dont worry too much. this is more buyers remorse than anything else. enjoy your car.

dreamstar · January 2005

Oh Thank You for the input! After reading some of the Dealer tricks on buyers horror stories, and reading about all the things I didn't verify on the Purchase Order Form Prior to signing.. well..

It's a lot of $$$ to drive off and not know you got shafted!

I called the salesperson today about the Purchase form. She stated she was planning on sending me a copy of the actual summary sheet for the order. My signature is on the Purchase form that I neglected to verify fields like entries for each option cost and such... Could the dealer/sales person try to rip me off once the car arrives during F&I processing by changing the quoted figures because they were blank?

driftracer · January 2005

"Could the dealer/sales person try to rip me off once the car arrives during F&I processing by changing the quoted figures because they were blank?"

I realize this is a dealer's tricks forum, and I've certainly dropped in several posts from dealer fraud cases I've seen.

Having said that, I've seen maybe 8-10 REAL fraud cases in 4 years, and that's covering 6 states. Talking with other folks in my field, their numbers are lower because they're not in the Northeast like I am (no offense, NE folks, but there are more dealer problems here than anywhere, it seems).

If you go into this BMW deal with such an enraged and paranoid attitude, you're likely to ruin a good experience with a good dealer.

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

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