Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

guitarzan · September 2005

I am only recalling previous conversations here at Edmund's, but I believe it is the titling of the car that initiates the warranty. I don't know, but I would guess that a demo unit is titled to the dealership. There is no dealer trick in titling a vehicle - the buyer will know it has been titled.

bdr127 · September 2005

I am only recalling previous conversations here at Edmund's, but I believe it is the titling of the car that initiates the warranty. I don't know, but I would guess that a demo unit is titled to the dealership. There is no dealer trick in titling a vehicle - the buyer will know it has been titled.

When a dealer's car becomes a demo, it is not titled with the state. The Certificate of Origin from the manufacturer is still original and unused. The DMV does not receive any paperwork or acknoledgement of the car being used.

Kirstie_H · October 2005

A reporter would like to hear from consumers who have researched and just purchased a new car over the past three/four months who had some horror stories or advice to share for new car buying customers. If you have a story to share, please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime contact info., city/state of residence, and the make/model(s) that you researched no later than Tuesday, October, 4, 2005.

mikefm58 · October 2005

I checked my warranty booklet for my '99 CRV and the warranty clock does in fact start when a dealer uses it as a demo. Maybe other manufacturers are different or there's different state laws.

raybear · October 2005

I checked my warranty booklet for my '99 CRV and the warranty clock does in fact start when a dealer uses it as a demo. Maybe other manufacturers are different or there's different state laws.

That all depends on whether the dealer reports it as a demo to the manufacturer or lets it go unreported. You can wind up with a warranty that's good for time but not miles.

mikefm58 · October 2005

" That all depends on whether the dealer reports it as a demo to the manufacturer or lets it go unreported. You can wind up with a warranty that's good for time but not miles. "

Yeah, I was thinking after I posted that, some unscrupulous dealer could simply just not file the paper work. Which could lead to all kinds of other problems, like insurance if the vehicle was ever in an accident. Or when the vehicle was sold to an individual, how to explain all the miles.

bdr127 · October 2005

Dealers will typically get allowances from the manufacturer for demo use.... No sense in not reporting it if they'd get money.

audia8q · October 2005

Dealers will typically get allowances from the manufacturer for demo use

With the exception of a special/specific marketing program these extra incentives went away years ago. About the time salespeople demo's disappeared. In the last 5 years I can only think of 3 times where an incentive came down for putting a car into demo service. (5 different franchises). one of them was a special to address a service problem and the other two were part of a new vehicle launch to keep a car instock to show customers.

Demo's are essentially a big expense for dealers.

bdr127 · October 2005

As recently as 4 months ago, I know that GM dealers received a $1000 allowance for cars used as a demo.....

fordfool · October 2005

> As recently as 4 months ago, I know that GM dealers received a $1000
> allowance for cars used as a demo...

How much of a discount should a buyer expect on a 2005 demo?
Say 10K on the clock and one year gone on the warranty. Would the
demo be worth about the same as a one-year old used car?

stickguy · October 2005

that is a one year old used car.

mikefm58 · October 2005

" Would the demo be worth about the same as a one-year old used car? "

I would say Yes. But the demos I've seen only have at most a few thousand miles on them and I didn't find out the date it was "demo'ed". And the arrogant dealer wouldn't discount it more than a few hundred from the price of a new one.

bobst · October 2005

In my opinion, a year old demo with 10K miles is worth much less than a normal used car.

The demo has been driven on a lot of short trips, which is harder on an engine. In addition, it may have been driven more aggresively than most people drive their own cars.

graphicguy · October 2005

bobst....having bought a lot of used cars for myself and family members, I've never thought that someone telling me that their miles were "highway miles" netted anything more than a "that's nice" response from me. Highway miles certainly don't warrant extra cash out of my pocket.

It's the miles that made a difference to me. School of thought here.....most cars will get 100,000 miles + before any major work is needed (there's always exceptions) regardless of how those miles were put on the car (short of out and out abuse).

A 1 year old car with 10,000 miles is nothing in my estimation....whether it's a demo or not.

Case in point, my 81 year old Mother owns a '98 Lincoln with......get this......27,000 miles on it. She's owned it since new.....never driven it on the highway. She does get the oil changed every 6 months and rotates the tires, changes the filters at the same time. She's flushed the radiator several times and has even changed the tranny fluid a couple of times.

The thing runs (and looks) like new. Even though her miles are all of the "back and forth" to the grocery, Dr's office, church, etc variety, I wouldn't hesitate to jump in it to make a cross country trip.

Point is, generally, it's the number of miles, not the way those miles were driven.

isellhondas · October 2005

A lot of times when someone is trading in a high mile car, the customer will dismiss the high miles by saying..." Oh, it's ALL highway miles"

It's almost like they think I'll say..." Oh, really, well then it doesn't matter"

Then I'll get..." And I change the oil every three thousand miles"

I will then try to explain to them that their 1999 Durango with 145,000 miles is a car that will be VERY hard to sell at ANY price.

And, sometimes, I'll ask them..." Would YOU buy it?"

They usually stutter a bit..." Well...ah...YEAH, it's a good car!

I agree with graphicguy here. I've owned two ex rental cars and they were just fine.

Some cars, however seem to fare better with high miles than others do and I'm not sure why. I've seen cars with 250,000 miles that ran better than another of the same make with 85,000. Maintenance has a lot to do with this and the older a car gets the more some poeple tend to not stay on top of things.

They figure the car isn't worth the trouble and expense I guess.

qbrozen · October 2005

usually you can tell if the car has been driven hard, even with just a few miles on it. Its not a foolproof system, no, but its pretty typical that when a car is driven real hard in such a short time that other areas are not taken care of either.

case in point, i checked out an '05 Pacifica with just 5k miles on it. It ran rough (although I'm the only one who could tell - or at least the only one who would admit it wasn't running quite right), something was leaking under the car, and the interior was pretty filthy for the miles. This was obviously a VERY hard 5k miles. Needless to say I walked away from that one.

user777 · October 2005

i agree with bobst.

my reasons: why did the vehicle get to 10K without an offer and sale? was it a "hanger queen" for a period of time? hmmm. was it taken on joy rides by the manager or one of his kids (no joke, once got in a demo mini-van with 2400miles, and I handed a Jack Daniels bottle and plastic cup to the salesman I had found under the seat). Bet I could have gotten a good deal on that one. There's the issue of oil changes and other PM...was that done at 4K or 6K, or was that done just before they showed it to you, or not at all. Tire condition?

unless someone is going to discount the vehicle heavily (much much more than a mileage concession), i wouldn't touch a vehicle with more than a couple hundred miles as "new". this one has 50x that amount of mileage on it.

graphicguy · October 2005

q.....I'm with you and Craig on this one. You can tell in pretty short order whether the car has been taken care of, regardless of the number of miles.

isell.....for numerous reasons, certain cars have a reputation for long longevity as well as a propensity to go for 100s of thousands of miles. Your Hondas are one example.....as are Toyotas. I'll throw in Crown Vics/Grand Marquis and GM 3.8L V6 cars (Like LeSabres). There are always exceptions, of course. But I wouldn't be fearful of any of the examples above.

isellhondas · October 2005

In 1989, I bought a new Buick Le Sabre T-Type brand new and I babied it until I sold it to a friend in 1996. It had the 3800 engine and it ran like a charm.

The guy who bought it from me is even fussier than I am. About a year later, it blew the engine without warning! He was the only driver and he never abused it in any way. I think it had around 70,000 miles at the time.

So, go figure? One of those strange things that can and do happen!

mikefm58 · October 2005

I agree with what you're say about miles. In my book, miles is miles. But I can't tell you how many times a SALESMAN has told me, Oh they're mostly highway miles. It works both ways.

graphicguy · October 2005

Craig.....those "blown" 3.8L engines weren't exactly the "garden variety" that are found in naturally aspirated form.

That said, the General used a supercharger on the 3.8L for many, many years with little to suggest they were any less durable than their "regular" cousins.

But, back to "bait and switch".....when I was a young pup and all I could afford were disposable cars, I used to buy cars from the "buy here-pay here" lots. I could usually find something that ran that would fit the $200-$500 I had in my wallet.

I can't tell you how many times bad transmissions, broken heater cores, leaky radiators, etc I found within a week of driving off their lot. The difference was, Imy expectations were very, very low given the amount of money I had paid for those cars. It was a matter of patching them up as best I could until I could save up another $500 to buy another one. Matter of fact, I probably paid for a mechanics education by having to constantly fix those cars on my own to keep them on the road. That's also how I became acquainted with buying parts at the local salvage yard.

jipster · October 2005

We have a local "buy here-pay here" used car lot called, Circus Auto Sales.
It must be geared toward those not wanting to wait till they turn 16 to get a car. On the large sign out in front there is a bunch of smiling circus clowns getting into a little VW Beetle. Can't imagine anyone actually going in there to buy a car. Everyone knows how tricky and deceiving circus clowns can be . :P

isellhondas · October 2005

Dan,

That Buick didn't have the supercharger. The guy I sold it too still has it and it's been fine.

Well, it's not "bait and switch" but the trade-in's we reject get bought by wholesalers and the owners of small used car lots. A lot of these cars aren't "bad" but they may be just rough and not up to our standards.

Some, we just call a junkyard. Speaking of junkyards...Ah, now called "Auto Dismantlers"...I spent many an hour prowling through these places, pulling my own parts, trying to keep my beaters running.

I guess they don't let you do that anymore.

graphicguy · October 2005

Show's you what I know. I thought all the "T" type 3.8L Buicks were either tubo'd or supercharged.

All that said, I've seen plenty of 200,000 mile Hondas, Toyotas and those favorites of cab companies, older Impalas and Crown Vics running (and running well).

I can relate to scavenging at the "bone yard" salvage places for parts. And yes, I suspect they don't let you do that anymore for fear of injury and liability.

Those "Buy here-Pay here" lots were full of "bait and switch" back in the '80s when I first started driving. I'd go to buy one car they advertised (usually they prefered payments over cash, so I wasn't their target customer) and find out it was gone (if it ever existed). Once there, I ended up with something completely different than what I originally intended to buy. Some had a mechanic on staff. Some had little more than a "lot boy" that made the junkers look presentable with the "as is" warranty....usually mis-matched tires to show 4 that had at least some tread on them. Plenty of bondo on them to hold them together.

I would imagine that's a "no-no" these days, too. I would imagine the litigiousness of today's culture has done away with most of that.

Excue the trip down nostagia lane.

I see a bunch of higher end used lots these days. Big buck cars like 3,4, 5, 6 year old Bimmers, Benz's and luxury SUVs. I'll assume they are lease returns from the bank (why anyone gets into a 5 year lease is a mystery to me, too). They seem to do a "bang up" biz.

These days, I buy new. But, I often wondered how any dealer focuses on the used cars they know they can sell (as opposed to those they send to the auction house). At my local Ford dealership, he has 3 used '05 Mustang GTs on his lot (asking MSRP for them, too). Where do they come from and why did someone part with a car that's less than one year old?

1racefan · October 2005

"At my local Ford dealership, he has 3 used '05 Mustang GTs on his lot (asking MSRP for them, too). Where do they come from and why did someone part with a car that's less than one year old?"

Well....
"My wife won't mind me buying this Mustang GT ...our kids are still small, they will be able to fit in the back seat", says the man brousing the lot on his lunch hour. LOL

Or....
21 year old kid buys an '05 Mustang GT after owning a 1989 Civic, and then gets the bill from his insurance company reflecting the cost to insure said Mustang. Ouch

graphicguy · October 2005

race....you're probably right. I see a lot of barely used 350Z's, Boxters, 'Vettes, etc, in addition to Mustangs, that would fit that bill.

Getting back to "bait and switch", for numerous reasons, I've been to the new car dealers a lot this year. Just some quick observations....

I noticed a lot of "green peas" that were probably pressured by their management to sell a car. It amazed me how/what they would say/do in order to sell me something.

On the other hand, those who are seasoned pros (in the biz more than 12 months) have a better grasp of how to deal with their customers. They know their product, inside and out. They don't normally get into the financial details until they can pinpoint what the guy/gal is looking for. They are usually very upfront with what they can/can't do. I don't try to convince them otherwise, either. I tell them up front what I can/can't do.

That type of sales experience works well with me. Usually, I'm pretty well versed on what I'm looking for when I walk into a dealership. The inexperienced sales people tried to close me on something else (is that bait and switch?), especially if what I was looking for wasn't something they had.

Throwing payment info at me at the start of the process does nothing to help me make a decision (mainly because I mostly don't finance unless the rates are "special").

Thanks to the folks here, I'm confident that I've got a good grasp of what any particular model will sell for and what a trade (if there's one involved) is worth.

Viewing everything as a business relationship as opposed to an adversarial one, usually nets a smooth transaction. Sales person knows I'm a buyer. I make it a point to tell them up front if I'm just shopping around or if I'm ready to make a deal (if we come to an agreement).

Calling the dealership's clerical "greeter" before I make a trip will tell me who the more/most experienced sales person I need to talk to. Making an appointment with that person helps speed things along, also.

Through all of that, there are dealerships/sales people I'll buy from....and there are dealerships/sales people I'll only shop. I've got my favorites. The "high pressure" dealerships, with lots of sales turnover, don't get my business. The ones that give honest information and service, do get my business.

Just some general observations, for what it's worth.

isellhondas · October 2005

But for many shoppers, all they care about is PRICE. They don't care about how they are treated and they aren't loyal.

Then some of these people come here and complain about the experience.

Calling the receptionist is probably a good idea...

" I'm interested in buying a new car but I want a low pressure, experienced salesperson who has been there long term...someone who get's a lot of repeat and referral business"

I get a lot of business that way,

Sadly, in a lot of stores, their "senior" salesperson has been there less than a year, Pretty typical.

Or just ask your co-workers and neighbors for a referral.

1racefan · October 2005

I have developed a pretty good relationship with my service advisor. They always do good work, and do the job right on the first visit. I have never had any complaints with the service department, and always reward them when I get the survey in the mail. The service advisor has always gone above and beyond in my opinion.

I plan on asking him for a sales referral when it comes time for us to purchase our next car.

rroyce10 · October 2005

...... And a very good point made by you ........

Some people will email 10 dealers, call 5 different stores and then drive 100 miles to maybe save $100/$200 ... then get that "dead mullet look" when the service advisor leaves them cold because they bought somewhere else ...... somtimes the service guy can make all the difference ......

Terry.

bobst · October 2005

In 1985 I bought a Honda Accord at the price the sales person gave me and always had it serviced at the dealer. However, when there was an unusual problem, they did not treat us well at all.

That taught me a good lesson, which I have never forgotten. Buy a car for the lowest price we can. Deal with the service later.

The lessons we learn from our own experience stay with us for our entire lives.

rroyce10 · October 2005

.... **In 1985 I bought a Honda Accord .....**

In 1985 I bought a pair of Levi's that ripped and they wouldn't take them back til' I called Corporate Levi .. but I didn't stop buying Levi's from that particular store ..... C'mon Bobst.

What..? .. no key story .............................?

Terry.

isellhondas · October 2005

Shhh...it's been a couple of months now!

bobst · October 2005

So what lesson did you learn from your sad experience, Terry?

rroyce10 · October 2005

........ I learned: "there is no bones in ice cream" .....................

Terry.

bobst · October 2005

That's a good lesson to remember, Terry, but how will that help you avoid buying an inferior pair of blue jeans in the future?

Remember, we are supposed to learn something valuable from our bad experiences.

jipster · October 2005

Terry..."In 1985 I bought a pair of Levi's that ripped..."
Bobst.."So what lesson did you learn from your sad experience..."

What happened to the, "expect nothing" lesson? I thought that was the answer to aquiring inner peace, a smooth sales transaction on a vehilce.... or at least to finding a pair of jeans big enough to fit into.

graphicguy · October 2005

Although I was not far from "wet behind the ears" at the time, I remember shopping for a Honda as a new college graduate for the first time in '85.

IIRC, Hondas were "hot" numbers back then. I believe they were going for near MSRP.

That's when I "learned" to shop the dealership, not just price. Figuring all dealerships would be a couple of nickels of each other on the pricing front, that's when I started interviewing service depts as well as the sales staff at dealerships as part of my buying criteria.

Through a few bumps and bruises with new vehicle purchases, overall I've not had any major service issues that weren't tended to in a satisfactory manner. That strategy has served me well when buying, not only the car, but from straight up dealerships that would go to bat for me if any problems arose.

bobst · October 2005

Interesting response, Graphic. You looked at the facts as you saw them and, instead of whining, you developed a plan of action and carried it out to your satisfaction. Good for you!

graphicguy · October 2005

bobst....absolutely nothing wrong with your way of buying a car. Matter of fact, I like it. Here's the offer. Yes or no? Then move on if the answer is no.

Perhaps I introduce more complexity than is needed. But, both you and I, as well as many others around here, have been around long enough and have bought enough vehicles that you get a "feel" whether you're working with a good sales person, store, service dept, etc or not.

Between kyfdx and myself, we've probably been in every car store in the Cincinnati area at one time or another. I'm sure the same is true with you in your local 'burg.

For you, the deal begins and ends with the sales process. You buy cars that have a good reputation for reliability and longevity (Hondas, for example). If something does per chance go wrong, that's when the rest of the dealership and their philosophy come into play. While I never expect to have any serious troubles with a new car, if I do, the store's handling of those issues will make or break my ownership experience. That's why it's important to me to shop not only based on price, but the "feel" of the dealership. They're the first line of communication with the manufacturer.

Most of what I've learned comes from making mistakes at the dealership. I've made my fair share of them, too.

I think that's the entire reason I've got all the keys that were ever due to me when I purchased......

raybear · October 2005

Yeah, I was thinking after I posted that, some unscrupulous dealer could simply just not file the paper work. Which could lead to all kinds of other problems, like insurance if the vehicle was ever in an accident. Or when the vehicle was sold to an individual, how to explain all the miles.

The mileage is still reported at the time of sale.

honestyfired · October 2005

Hello. I was fired a couple of days ago. I was called into an office that I had never been in before. A second person in addition to the manager was present. I was told by a lying, non-moral unethical person that "this is the hardest thing a manager has to do." "You don't fit in so we have to let you go" I reply with "What"? "Why?" "you don't fit in." Me, "That is your reason?" Manager, "Yes, you know you don't fit in." Me, "Well I know that I don't get along with you very well, but I do get along with everyone I work with."

I have had the last 48 or so hours to think about this. Every one of the customers I sold to either asked me "Why are you in this business?" or told me, "you don't belong in this business." My unrealistic and hopeful beliefs were and are that I could sell cars and keep my personal beliefs, morals and ethics the same. My personal philosophy ws this: If I can educate the customer on how to buy a car for a fair price to the customer by telling them to get online and do research so that they would have negotiating power then I will negotiate for them once they have done their homework. I know that since I was new in the business that the mini ($100.00) per sale wasn't going to be much of a paycheck when you sell 8-10 cars in a month. But I was thinking long term. It would not be long before lots of people would learn about me by word of mouth and over time I would build a clientelle and would hopefully increase my sales numbers so I could make a decent salary. Before I took the job I studied all the negative things stated about car sales people and I swore I would shock customers with my beliefs and ethic. Well, I was fired. I never told any customer what the invocie price was because I didn't know. I never told a customer about all the lies and tricks I saw salespeople pull and managers brag about. It sickens me to know what I now know. One manager bragged about how a senior citizen just layed down. I didn't know what he meant by this...I asked a floor salesman for the defintion... She trusted the manager so she did every thing that he told her to do. She paid full retail and he gave her 2k less for her trade than he should have. dealer profit was huge.

So in the last 2 days my spouse has told me that I should get another auto sales job immediately because I sold cars so easily and I will be successful. My spouse also said that I better follow protocol next time though so I won't get fired. I was shocked that this was said that to me. I asked my spouse if being taken advantage of by a couple of thousand dollars is fair? My spouse said no. BUt on the other hand if is our income we have to take care of us.

Amazing how $$$ makes it ok to lie, cheat and steal. Well, not for me!

Here is a list of UNETHICAL things I witnessed at the dealership that fired me for "Not a good fit"

Certified Used---not up to certified standards--not repaired before being certified.
FALSE advertising. the ad that ran for a very low lease payment on a car that NEVER been on the lot and they don't even know when one will come in.

SAles people promising things like fabric protector (without management knowing) and then lying about the application

oh... I think I will write a book--- I tried so hard to be a Great auto salesman. I didn't lie once. I didn't promise anything I couldn't deliver or that was unethical to the dealership. I worked hard and put in long hours. I was so hopeful to make it and be a different kind of auto sales professional. I was so shocked when I was told I was being fired for "Not a good fit" I am still shaking my head over this.

So to all of you who hate auto sales people or mistrust them.. there are a select few who are very honest. There was one man at this dealership who has been in the business 28 years who is a complete consumer advocate. The rest at the dealership.... well, I wasn't there long enough to know them all but I did over hear them bragging when they took someone for a lot of money. Every sale I made was a mini. I guess this was a clue to management as to how I dealt with customers.

stickguy · October 2005

I guess what you didn't fit into was the profit profile of the dealer. Remember, if you got a mini, the dealership didn't make much on the deal. And guess what is nearest and dearest to a dealer (hint, it's not your ethics).

SOunds like it might not be the business for you, but if you want to keep it up, more power to you. just figure out what type of store will fit with the way you operate.

rroyce10 · October 2005

...... Have you tried interviewing for the show, "the Apprentice" ..? .... maybe you'd get along better with Donald Trump .......

Terry.

jb_turner · October 2005

Something sounds fishy about this (story).

raybear · October 2005

My personal philosophy was this: If I can educate the customer on how to buy a car for a fair price to the customer by telling them to get online and do research so that they would have negotiating power then I will negotiate for them once they have done their homework.

You deserved to get fired.

Telling a customer to go shop around is also telling them you are not interested in making a sale...and you leave the door open for a more experienced salesman taking the customer away from you. As the internet manager at the dealership where I work, I can tell you from personal experience that I take advantage of nice guys like you every month. For me, it's a numbers game, I'm going to sell about one in ten of my contacts; I give my best price right up front and often at delivery I hear about the salesman at the dealer down the road who refused to give a price or suggested the customer shop around before they finalized negotiations. People are too busy to bother with going back and forth like they used to in order to save a few bucks, more often than not they will look at a car and then shop online for a best price, and that dealer is the one who wins the sale unless they try to pull something (another source of my customer base).

Look, as a salesperson it is your job to do one thing and do it well--sell cars! What's wrong with giving your best price to the person who's in front of you at the moment and asking for their business? You owe it to yourself and your family to do a better job than you have. Find another dealer who has a better reputation than the one you were fired from and ask for a job, this business can use more nice guys like you and all you need is experience.

By the way, I was also fired from a dealership where promises went unfulfilled and customers were treated like cattle sent to slaughter; it was a relief! I called a friend at another dealership and told him what had happened; his response was, "What's the matter, too honest for them?"

nortsr1 · October 2005

Sounds to me that you are DEFINITLY in the wrong profession. Have you thought about something in the religion field???

dpat · October 2005

If you want to stay in the business, you might want to look into getting a job at a no-haggle dealership if there is one near you.

Kirstie_H · October 2005

Well, perhaps this person has some things to learn about the sales profession and how to integrate ethical behavior with good sales techniques, but I think that if he/she enjoys selling cars, then the potential for a good career exists.

honestyfired, look for a better dealership - we have a lot of salespeople who participate on these boards, and they can attest that there are good dealerships out there that can make a buck without "taking down" their customers. You don't have to take all the "minis," but you don't have to be a jerk either. There IS a middle ground!

dino001 · October 2005

In movie "Matchstick Men" the main character (a con artist played Nicolas Cage) was asked how he felt about stealing peoples' money. His response: "They gave it to me". He was at least consistent, when after he got conned in response to question Why aren't you angry at me?" he said "I gave it to you". So when a senior citizen or a single mother "gives" the money to the guy, why not take it? As you read here, it is actually his duty to the employer and his family. Don't like it? Terry sends you to Trump for a lesson, others suggest switching majors.

For a moment lets leave the sarcasm. General sentiment appears to be "rule one - ain't no rules". It is present on both sides of the process. (Many, not all) sales people think it is OK to lie and overcharge underinformed customer but also (many, not all) customers feel it is OK to lie as well about what they're really interested in and what their real circumstances are, sign papers and still shop, etc..

How to change it? I have no idea. Everybody claims just trying to survive, but I have a strong suspicion that it is not all there it. Too many seem to enjoy it too much.

martian · October 2005

I feel bad for you. But, i have been buying SATURNs now for the past 12 years, and here is why: every sales guy (at SATURN) that i have dealt with has been honest. the only dispute i have ever had was about the value of a trade-in. In that case, the sales manager popped in, and made the deal on the spot(without undercutting his salesman in nay way). At SATURN, everybody knows the price of the car-and they don't go in for that phoney 'rustproffing' and "paint sealer' crap/scam stuff at all.
I'm a satisfied SATURN owner, and i have nothing but good to say about the sales staff i have dealt with.
In contrast, I once went to check out a Toyota-and the sales guy turned me off right away.

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

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Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.