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You said that more people buy the Camry because it fit the family's needs better than the Accord. I was merely pointing out that the Camry 4-door is lagging in sales compared to the Accord 4-door. The Solara, which I don't consider a family car, outsells the Accord coupe, probably by a 2 to 1 margain. It's a simple mathematical data, without Solara and Accord coupe, Camry would be #2 in sales.
The fact is that Toyota has more models than Honda. It would be as unfair as comparing GM to Toyota, just look at how many models GM has. You said in the past that Accord had an unfair advantage because it had an Accord coupe, while Camry did not. Anyways, Honda is far from being stagnant, it sold over 1 million in America for the first time last year. And it has several models which command over MSRP. Toyota lacks any model that even comes close to the popularity of Odyssey and S2000.
Toyota isn't exactly as successful as you may think. Several of its models lag behind Honda's. Civic regularly outsells Corolla; CR-V outsells RAV-4; and Odyssey outsells Sienna. Landcruiser sales lag behind Explorer's; Tundra is no where near the popularity of Ford and Chevy.
Honda's growing in popularity in Europe too. I heard that sales have grown approx. 17% compared to last year. Honda is a global company with success to match any other. It's just a matter of time that it will overtake Toyota as the most successful Japanese company.
It's possible that if ES300 didn't exist, sales of Camry may increase. But it's less likely due to the significant price difference. The top of the line Camry V6 and ES300 w/ premium pkg is almost $9K. The difference between Accord V6 and 3.2TL is only about $3K. Do the math.
Yes, Camry would have a much higher resale value if everyone can buy it new for $15,700. But alas, only several can get this deal. But on the average, Accord has the leg up on Camry in resale value. I can vouch for this beccause I got over $15K for my '98 Accord LX. Used, certified, '98 Camry LE are regularly advertised at $12,800. Last time, they had 4 at that price. They also included the full VIN#, just in case you shout bloody murder.
So while Toyota is a giant, its a slow ponderous one compared to nimble and efficient Honda.
Honda net income last year: 260.6 billion yen.
That's $1 billion dollar difference in income!
Toyota is slow and ponderous? If being a small company is a good thing, then why are all the annalyists predicing there will only be 5 largest automakers left by 2005? Because, being small means less profit, and being eaten by bigger fish.
That's 1 billion YEN, not DOLLARS. It's probably about $500 Million Dollars after the converstion rate.
And wait, I have another message coming up.
Toyota does have more product, and honda has less. But who's fault is that? Honda just doesn't have the resources to put up that many products. So Honda is finally selling over 1 million vehicles in U.S. for the first time. What took them so long? Toyota BUILDS more vehicles in U.S than Honda SELLS here. And what Toyota builds here can't even supply 70% of the Toyota's sales in U.S. It really sucks to be just 1/2 the size of the competitor doesn't it?
And here is information and few correction for ya. Corolla out sells Civic world wide, not to mention that Toyota also builds the equivalent Chevy Prizm for GM to sell. CR-V does out sell RAV4, you got something right. But wrong on Odyssey out selling Sienna. Sienna sold 66,441 in first 10 months. Odyssey sold 56,530 in the same period. Again, honda's can't support the market.
Also Honda is NOT growing in Europe. For the first quarter of the 2000 fiscal year (ends in June 30, 1999). Honda's sale in Europe is DOWN! From 68,000 to 56,000 units. That's staggering DECREASE of 17.6%. Perhaps you mistook honda's falling sales for increase sales.
Toyota, during the mean time, latest figure I have (for 1999 fiscale year), indicating a 14% GAIN in sales, now selling over 500,000 units in Euorpe.
So let's see, Honda down 11% in Japan, 17.6% in Europe, up 7.1% in U.S. Toyota up 0.8% in Japan, up 14% in Europe, up 10.7% in U.S. Need I say more? You think it's only a matter of time Honda will over take Toyota? Ha, not at this rate. And don't forget, for each 1% Toyota growth in U.S, Honda has got 1.5% just to match.
As for TL vs ES300's affect on their lesser brethen's sales. I know my math. Don't forget, the market price for TL and ES300 isn't that big. That's why they will have relatively the same effect in increasing the Accord's and Camry sales if they were removed. Again, Honda, being smaller, is lacking the resources to harvest the market's potenitals.
Toyota is more successful than Honda, but still can't stand toe to toe with Ford or GM. After all, while all japanese industrial and population centers were being firebombed and nuked during second world war, Ford and GM were growing to unreal proportions on government war contracts. With a 40 year head start and all the extra money, it's not suprising how those 2 are the biggest by far. After all, this nation is the sole superpower left, and rightfully so! But for Honda and Toyota, and all the other japanese, who has to pull themselves out of the ashes, Toyota turned out to be the bigger (if not the biggest) success.
Where camry can't be bought at $15,700 when brand new, the resale price of a used 98 Camry will also correspondingly be higher, in keep with it's low depreciation rate.
Accord most of the time is few hunded dollars higher in resale. That miniscule difference is hardly what I call "a leg up". The population doesn't seem to even notice such a small difference in an expensive used car, as you can see, Camry is still more popular than the the Accord.
the line should go "And don't forget, for each 1% Toyota growth in U.S,
Honda has got to get 1.5% just to match."
I was on my honeymoon at end of Augest and early september. We when to the beautiful island of Maui, Hawaii. Renting a Honda isn't hard over there. Maybe Honda fleet sales is most concentrated in tourist area, where people are willing to pay higher prices for little more quality in just about anything. That maybe what's making rental agencies that rent imports such as HOnda and Toyota possible. Other wise, it just doesn't make sense to use expensive Honda and TOyota when they could rent cheap Taurus.
Here is an example of Honda rentals, if you are interested, www.cainrent.com/rates.html
www.hondaofspokane.com/fleet.asp
www.hondacity.com/fleet.htm
FY98-99 Toyota
Revenues...12749 billion yen
Net Income.356.2 billion yen
FY 98-99 Honda
REvenues....6231 billion yen
Net Income.305.0 billion yen
So while Toyota has twice as much revenue and sells twice as much cars, it only makes 17% more in profit.
BTW Toyota has been making automobiles since before the WW2, and along with Nissan were the only companies allowed to build automobiles in Japan for decades after WW2. Honda was only founded in 1948 making motorized bikes and finally allowed to make autos in the 60s. That's why Toyota currently is a much larger company than Honda.
Honda could grow faster, but it simply doesn't have the factory capacity at the moment to meed demand
And who cares if Honda is not in the top 5 in size for car companies when it is #5 in terms of net income and easily the most efficient. I believe the 90s have taught the world (and Japan in particular) the lesson that growth in earnings is more important than growth in revenues.
Your data must be unconsolidated data. The data I posted was from Toyota and Honda's annual report. your data is in error.
Net income, Toyota made $1 billion over Honda last year. Thank you very much.
As for Toyota's head start. Unfortunatly the entire operation was destroyed during the war. By the end of war, the term Japanese Industry was an oxymoron. There was nothing left, every city medium and large was bombed out, U.S was running out of targets by 1945.
Toyota was a loom factory. They were in the spinning and weaving business. The single model (and the first model) was from 1937. And their operation was completely obliterated during the war by American bombing. So there goes any progress. Back to start.
So at 1946, when McArthur is reforming the Japanese economy, everyone had an equal start from the scratch.
Toyota decided to jump into making cars. Honda decided to make motor cycles. That's bad choice on Honda's part. They think they could match profit with Toyota by making Motorcyles. Well, after a while, they realized that's not happening, so they switched gear into building car. So they choose the wrong way in the very beginning.
That's why Toyota is a much larger company. They had vision, and made correct decision all along the way and never really side-tracked.
And if profit is so important, then Toyota is winning all the way.
It's simple to see why size matters. The market is going global. And those who are big enough and has enough resoureces to support a global market will rake in the benefit and profit. THose who can not will become bought out or become some big commpany's supplier. Don't take my word for it. Take the words from those wallstreet experts.
Honda is having a hard time as it is trying to support the u.s market already. It's earning growth in the U.S by sacrificing sales in Japan and Europe. That suits Toyota just fine. Not only is Toyota out pacing Honda in America, with Nissan and Honda loosing sales, Toyota has also moved to fill the void in Japan, and now control more than 40% of the market there.
And the increase in sales means immediate profit, it will translation to long term pay off (effects of customer retention, and word-of-mouth advertising).
That's why size matters. Because larger size allow you to leaverage more weight, more resource, more security, support global economy, and the ability to crush smaller competitors in a overall strategy.
The number you report is the combined income of
the Honda motor corp. The result you posted is not
only automobil sale, but a combination income of
(1) automobile sale (2) motorcycle sale (3) power
tool sale.
You see, that represent the entire earning of 3
branches, not just automotive earning. If you take
out the other 2 branch, the earning form Honda's
automobile operation is ALOT less than Toyota's.
Toyota Motor corp, on the other hand, is JUST 1 of
the many branches of the giant TOYOTA GROUP! Toyota
motor corp is only in charge of Toyota's automobile
operation. So you were trying to compair Honda's
car, bike, and power tool earnings to just Toyota's
car earning alone.
Toyota as a whole, consists of many other branches other than
the Motor corp. And most of them are NOT called
TOYOTA. Here are few examples: (1) Toyota Fiance
Corp, obvioiusly incharge of finance operations,
(2) Toyota Industrial Equipment Mfg., Inc, making
heavy industry equipment, (3) MTA INCORPORATED,
high tech, (4) Teleway Japan Corp.
telecommuncation, (5) Nippon Idou Tsushin Corp,
cellphone, (6)Aero Asahi Corporation, aerospace
(7)Toyota System International, business software
engineering, (8) Himawari Network Inc, cable TV.
(9) Satellite Positioning Information Service, Ltd.
provide satellite related navigation information.
(10) Nagasaki Sunset Marina Co., Ltd, resort
related business (11) Toyota Mizunami Development
Co., Ltd., operate gulf courses, ....
That's just a small list, there are many more that
I just don't want to waste time listing (there are
over 300 business venture that Toyota own or has
partial ownership of).
So if you want a comparision between what the two companies makes on the car alone, then you will have to remove the Honda's sales on motorcyle and powertool. Which mean, the difference between Toyota's car earning and Honda's earning will be a lot bigger than what you originally calculated as 17%.
I've gotten to the point where I don't want to see a dozen cars exactly like mine on the way to work every day. I recently purchased a 2000 Passat. This car actually makes driving fun. Two years ago I would never have even gone to look at a Volkswagen, but after reading many excellent reviews on the Passat I decided to take a test drive. It feels much more solid than both Camry and the Accord. The only car in the class that I thought came close was the new Nissan Maxima.
Nothing toyota or honda has can come close to the F-series, except the newly released Toyota Tundra.
And here is a bit of news. Avis DOES purchase a large number of Honda's for their fleet rental. Both Honda civic and Honda accord are the major constituant of AVIS rental in locations such as Hong Kong, Thailand, and Saudi Arabia. In fact, Honda constitute much of AVIS's fleet in many Asia and Mid-eastern countries. Same is the case for Avis's Toyota rental, it's only noticable when outside of U.S.
http://www.avis.com/the_fleet/ap/p-hk-fleet.html
http://www.avis.com/the_fleet/eme/m-sa-fleet.html
Interestingly, Avis did not list Honda Accord or Toyota camry as their North America fleet.
http://www.avis.com/the_fleet/usa_can/u-us-fleet.html
http://www.avis.com/the_fleet/usa_can/c-ca-fleet.html
I guess, neither of these cars are a significant part of it's fleet here.
Although I'd not like to extend this "top sales" debate, but I've rented Accords in UK, never got a chance to see one sitting in a rental fleet here in the USA. Actually, Hertz rents more Camrys these days.
The fact of the matter is that the best mid-size sedan for me might not be the best mid-size sedan for someone else. The three vehicles discussed in this topic are all good vehicles in their own way. Rather than trying to declare a "winner" from an irrelevent statistic, lets discuss the positive and negative attributes of each vehicle.
They are not equal. But can often be related.
I never said Camry is the best car. Just given that all consumer's decisions are equally valid. The Camry looks pretty damned good.
But do you know how many of them are being
re- bought just because of theft of this vehicle?
don't you know that japanese cars have a higher rate for thieves to steal, not because they are good car but because the parts of the car are expensive, which means it is more expensive to repair a japanese car.
example
sold 400,000
stolen: ???
how many are being stolen and re-bought?
haha
After doing research on family cars and listening to all of you, I find it's quite interesting that some of the postings here represent opinions not facts.
What do I mean?
Let'ssy... "The leather is luxurious and nice looking" and "the ride is quick and smooth"
This are subjective opinions but not facts.
What type of leather is that? don't know? perhaps it's the high end version of vinally-leather?
So how quick is your car? (sorry we cannot count smooth)? 0-60mph: 7.8 seconds for accord and 7.9 for camry, am i wrong?
P.S. Look at the Motortrend this month. It shows 8.0 for accord and 8.1 for camry.
I have proofs to say that:
Where is the top quality auto plant in the world? Not only, America?
1) and 2) are tied. One is in Japan, forget the name, but i remember it is a toyota (anyone please corect me if i am wrong) and the other one is the buick city in U.S. (correct me if i am wrong, too)
all these are from the JD power&associates
so where quality for U.S. built-japanese cars come from? (YOur "JANPANESE" cars are built in U.S."), quality rating? haha, you go find out yourself.
Can anyone say there are no major recalls for you accords and camrys?
all below information comes for NHTSA
Accords: Auto transmission bolt
and other minor recalls
Camrys: Ignition Key removal (imagine you can take you key out in highway!)
and some minor recalls as well.
Problems for both Accord and Camry:
Emission problems
Honda has already paid the penalty rather "quietly" to the government and Toyota
pays "loudly"
in this price range;
only 15" inch wheel tires for
the sedan, which are way too small!
cassette is not standard for EX-V6
No power passenger seat
fog lights OPTIONAL!!!
Toyota Camry: Yeah, luckily there are 16" inch
wheels this year, but how about
the past?
No automatic climate control
fog lights OPTIONAL!!!
Steeromg-mounted audio controls?
quite expensive!!
VW Passat: One sentence, way too expensive
for the V6 Model!! The Passat is
certainly not in the price range
of Accord and Camry
yeah, the passat 4-cylinder is
quick ... with the manual only,
not the auto, but who does not
know that the manual is always
quicker than an auto?
(By the way, the stastics for
manual transmission cannot be
based on regular driving basis
because when the car is "idle",
the tester is alreay revving the
engine to 4000 rpm+
How come?
Look at the Chevrolet Impala LS.
1) It accelerates quicker that either Accord or Camry
2) it provide better fuel economy 20/29 <--- See,
this is a fact, not just saying , oh yeah, my car is ver fuel effeicient.
3) and finally, which is most importand, the Impala is haveier than Accord or Camry by at least 180 lbs.
Don't Japanese cars feel shamed? or should their owners feel shamed?
For more details,
www.chevrolet.com
or just www.edmunds.com
but www.chevroelt.com provides more information
you may ask why. when I look at cars, i don't look according to my subjective opinions.
Like, luxury interior <--what's that stand for?
smooth, quick engine <--how quick (once again, can't count smooth!!)
good quality <-- a lot of recalls means good?
good fuel economy <-- you bet (See posting 204)
Pricy <-- Yeah, that's the only thing i agree with Japanese cars
VTEC is a technique (from an advertising poing of view) that pumpps up the horsepower of a engine that is not capable of before adding VTEC.
So what does that mean?
Very simple, the VTEC only "operates" in high rpms
, more that 4800 rpm. You can't operate the VTEC if you are driving in either city or highway unless you are speeding. You can only operate VTEC on race tracks.. but are you going to bring an Accord down to the race track? Even the prelude is sort of incapable. The only japanese sport car(s) which is capable (not the very expensive ones) is the Acura Integra Type R. without leather sunroof, and optional for air-cond and cd-player for its expensive price tag
This topic covers the 4 cylinder versions of these three cars. The variance in price is rather negligable. MSRP has the Passat around $1,000 more than Camry and Camry around $1,000 more than Accord. These cars definately are competing for the same buyers.
here is something from the Camry brochure.
STANDARD FEATURES1
All CE and LE Standard Features Plus3:
All models
Dual color-keyed heated power outside mirrors
P205/65R15 tires on 15" aluminum alloy wheels
Leather-wrapped steering wheel
Multi-adjustable power driver's seat with lumbar support and power passenger seat
Wood-grain-style interior trim
Dual illuminated visor vanity mirrors
CFC-free automatic climate control with soft-touch controls <---- automatic climate control
Anti-theft system with engine immobilizer
Remote keyless entry system with panic feature
JBL Premium AM/FM ETR/Cassette/CD with 6 speakers and FM diversity reception
V6 models add
P205/60R16 tires on 16" aluminum alloy wheels
You mean opinion is more valuable than facts:
First, opinions are biased. No doubt.
Secondy, then, why don't we care about those opinions then.
E.G. If i say the camry is very fast, yeah you can agree if you are driving a somewhat 1988 camry with 4 cylinder. So what is fast? Tell me the 0-60 mph.
By the way, i did not explain why the type-r is capable.
First, it has a better acceleration than a honda prelude.
Secondy, it has a better skidpad result than a honda prelude.
They are facts, check that out in motortrend or what so ever.
See. you got to explain things by facts, not just saying "Yeah, I think" or "Yeah, i feel"
You mean opinion is more valuable than facts:
First, opinions are biased. No doubt.
Secondy, then, why don't we care about those opinions then.
E.G. If i say the camry is very fast, yeah you can agree if you are driving a somewhat 1988 camry with 4 cylinder. So what is fast? Tell me the 0-60 mph.
By the way, i did not explain why the type-r is capable.
First, it has a better acceleration than a honda prelude.
Secondy, it has a better skidpad result than a honda prelude.
They are facts, check that out in motortrend or what so ever.
See. you got to explain things by facts, not just saying "Yeah, I think" or "Yeah, i feel"
Passat is about $1000 more than a camry LE.
Yeah, statistically, but you forget the passat is with Manaul? So what is the cost of an automatic.
Haha!
Then, Passat is not about $2000 more than an Accord LX. You should say $3000 if you don't know how to round off numbers. (Dont't you think a $2660 should tends to $3000 more than $2000?)
Don't fool people around here.
Passat is about $1000 more than a camry LE.
Yeah, statistically, but you forget the passat is with Manaul? So what is the cost of an automatic.
Haha!
Then, Passat is not about $2000 more than an Accord LX. You should say $3000 if you don't know how to round off numbers. (Dont't you think a $2660 should tends to $3000 more than $2000?)
Don't fool people around here.
Yeah, you probably will. So you house will probably fall if you do not do the math before
(The MATH are the facts, numbers, countable quantity)
So the camry and accord owners cannot dream in their own frame, just assuming japanese cars are good in quality and expertise in enginnering. YOU have to tell the manufacturers that you know their tricks, so that they cannot use it again.
By the way, don't you think the previous japanese cars just garbage metal with four wheels on it?
If you don't belive that, just tell me on the posting, and I will explain why.
Peter167, what is your purpose on this topic? Are you the self-proclaimed referee? Do you have anything constructive to add to this topic about the Accord, Camry, or Passat?
Although, I guess I should live my entire life based on nothing but facts alone. Attention, everyone!! You should be looking at nothing but pure numbers on spec sheets and pricing guides. Everyone should come to the conclusion that the Chevrolet Metro is THE car to have because on paper, it is the most economically and financially efficient vehicle out there. Part of being human is having opinions. Let me ask you... what kind of steel is your car built with? No, you can't say strong steel. I want the exact type of steel, because that is what I am basing my buying purchase on. Who cares if the fake leather in BMW's feels better and lasts longer than most real leathers? Since it is not hand-tanned Connolly leather, I guess I won't buy it.
Anyone else get my point? Please, express your opinions. That is what these boards are here for. The human race has reached a point where we can express our opinions. I think that happened in the Renaissance period.
You cannot compare a Metro with any cars that are not in the price range, and you seems a little be excited about my comments, which certainly implies
SOMEthing.
The type of steel you car is built can actually be found and you don't know or want to find it because you just believe what you think, not what you see.
It's too bad that you are the old referee who always believes some fairy tales. Are you educated? Do you know what is inquiring?
I hope you will change your attitude of your life.
but please go to carpoint.msn.com first before you
put any comments on my comment. They have a comprehensive review of all the used cars. go out there, check your car and check other cars as well.
Find out what is different now?
90' Acura Integra
91' Infiniti Q45
93' Bonneville SSEi
94' Honda Accord
96' Toyota Camry
I don't need to go look the site you are refering to, I can speak from my own experiences. All of my Japanese cars were excellent cars in build quality and fit and finish. The Pontiac left much to be desired. The Accord and Camry in my "opinion" were quality cars but boring to drive.
I currently have a 2000 VW Passat and a 1999 Mercedes ML320. Over the next several years I will form my "opinion" on these German vehicles. I obviously thought that I would like them or I would not have made the decision to purchase them.
Rather than basing your thoughts on spec sheets and others reviews why not form some "opinions" of your own.
You people believe what you think, not what you see. (from other surveys and staistics that are less subjective than your opinions!)
so when your math teacher ask you what is 1+1,
just tell him or her that it is 3. Why? Because you think it is 3, and it will be absolutely right because what you think is always right.
So no need for math, no need for science, no need for logic. Because what everyone thinks is right!