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Comments
haven't read all messages but,
People, listen up...
I don't know about the USA, but here in Europe it's:
C class vs 3 series vs Audi A4 vs Jag X-type
E class vs 5 series vs Audi A6 vs Jag S-type
S class vs 7 series vs Audi A8 vs dunno 'bout jag
therefore
c32 vs m3 vs s4
e55 vs m5 vs s6
s55 vs no bmw vs s8
welcome to any comments
mercpwr
http://www.mbworld.org/forum/w210/board/home.html
http://www.mercedesshop.com
http://www.bmwm5.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro
(The last one is the M5 board but it's interesting sometimes to see what's happening at the other camp.)
Good luck, the E55 is truly a great car. There are not too many cars that can be so easy to drive, so fast and handles so well, so quiet and comfortable and safe, at any price.
It likes like a pretty good deal, 69K is the lowest I've seen one go for.
Those guys at Autobahn are jerks. In trying to make a deal for a C43, (they had two), after two hours of arm twisting, they came down a whopping $500 from list. Seeeeeeeyaaaaaa. Got mine for way under from a broker.
Which brings me to WIZKI, if you decide not to take it, can I have it? I wouldn't mind having one at list. I'm not gonna pay 15K over for a used one.
Thanks.
Im my experience the best Bay Area Mercedes dealer is Mercedes of Oakland. Joe the sales manager is a fair guy and Mark Watson is a great salesperson. I have purchased three cars from them and have two more on order.
I have a tough time deciding who is the worst of the remaining dealers although I would give a slight nod to Autobahn.
And yes, I saw a guy showing off his Designo E55 in front of a brewery one week ago or so. The color and two tonme leather did nothing for me - way too busy.
A '99 XJR has a retail value of about $50k, a '99 Merc E55 a retail value of 60k (check used car pricing on this website). Then again, an E55 sets you back at least 75k new when compared to the Jag's 70k. So we're talking about a $20k loss with the Jab over the first year, a $15k loss with the Mercedes. In my opinion, you shouldn't be buying any of these cars if $5k make a huge difference to you when it comes to such a large purchase. Sure I don't like to give money away, but to consider "investment protection" when you're sybaritically dishing out 75 thou on a car is somewhat of a contradictory thing to me: if you owwry about car depreciation, buy a normal E-class, and put the difference in bonds (a year ago I would have said stock, but hey).
As to the Porsche, a friend of mine has his 911 Turbo coming. You are *sure* that is not enough power and you need a double turbo?? Talk about horsepwoer addiction... We "super sedan" 370HP folk are wimps compared to that... :-)
In the end, to each his own. These are all great cars. And none of them a very logical choice, and thus our own means of pseudo-logical justification on why we need one of these over the others are all very valid subjectively. :-) I know "investment protection" was not high on my list, I knew I was just burning money on something I didn't really need. The other option I considered was to keep my convertible and get a 3-series or C-class for everyday practical use. I obviously decided against that, despite it being the far more sensible financial option...
How about checking out MBUSA.com and find out what the markups are for USED E55s? They are all above MSRP. Because they are limited production cars with a long waiting list, people are paying premium for even a used one.
Granted, what you see on MBUSA's web page are retail asking prices but that will give you a rough indication of the fair market value of a 1999 or 2000 E55. A low mileage (<10k miles) 2000 E55 retailing at around $75-80k. The M5 is similar as they do not depreciate $15k a year. I am not sure what the deal is with the XJR but the whole world seems to think that the XJR depreciates far more than the E55 and the M5.
Of course, that doesn't mean it's a bad car. Personally I would pick to drive the XJR over the M5 day in day out simply because it's an automatic. If I have to buy one, I too would stay away from the Jag. Most of the guys I know driving the XJR are leasing them.
Normal E class and regular 5 series do depreciate MUCH more than the E55 and the M5, call any dealer and you'll find out. Have you ever seen an old E320 or 540i retailing anywhere above their MSRP?!
You will not be able to find a car that depreciates much less than the E55, M5, Ferrari 360 or 996TT. For the Ferrari and the Porsche, you can drive it for a few months and make some money from sellling it, believe it or not.
Regarding Porsche turbos, they make a 911T, then a 993TT, and currently it's the 996TT. You do not have the option of the number of turbos in a Porsche.
Note I am *not* saying the XJR holds its own just like a Merc or BMW. It surely doesn't. All I am saying, repeatedly, is that I find that financial "value loss" consideration out of place on *any* of these cars, really. You pay a lot, you lose a lot, that is the case for each and every high end car around. I think if you bought any of these cars expecting to not lose quite a bit of $ when you sell them, you're in for a rough and unpleasant surprise. Sure the Merc and BMW hold their own somewhat better, but all in all it is a significant financial loss. If buying an E55 over an XJR is someone's idea of a "sound investment", I don't want them anywhere near any of my accounts...
The "high demand" thing is often geographic. Which means you could make money by buying such car somewhere else and driving/shipping it over. And while it's done, the margins are often way too razor-thin for it to be an attractive premise for someone in an upper income class (which people considering these cars mostly are). When the BMW Z3 came out, they commanded a *huge* premium in Germany, which meant several people considered getting a couple in California and shipping 'em over. Number-crunching showed it wasn't really worth it. My CEO has a near-new Ferrari, and is getting the 360 Modena real soon. Despite all the rumors about Ferraris selling for this and that, most of the money goes to the dealers, not to owners. He's selling his car privately, and he'll incur a loss in doing so. It's a small loss considering the value of the car but hey - cars are *never* an investment. It's like people saying thay buy a Rolex 'cause they hold their value - try selling one as a private person for that premium, and you won't get it.
Cheers.
You should talk to your dealers though, it's really true these cars depreciate less in % compared to the regular E, 5 series, or XJ8.
On the other hand, the Jag, you can go to a dealer and get it significantly off MSRP.
I am not disputing that with some luck you can minimize your loss, or in some cases even make some money with a car. The latter is the case with collectibles, though, and you better be an insider. None of these cars are collectibles, none of them will*appreciate* while the owner is putting a few thousand miles on them. The *dealers* are the ones that have the high demand for them and mark them up, but try selling your car in the rpivate market for much profit and you'll keep on waiting while that car depreciates some more.
Cars are *not* an investment, and all of these cars are basically expensive toys. Perceive them as an invetment at your own financial risk.
I think the XJR's bigger depreciation can simply be explained by supply and demand. I certainly see more XJRs in dealers' lot than the E55 or M5.
I for one did not pay remotely MSRP for my new XJR. Which makes everything you talk about inaccurate and the financial consideration near irrelevant.
And believe it or not, there are some of us (varich, probably jesseliu, myself) who find the bigger depreciation significant enough to want to stay away from the car, which is a shame because the XJR is really not a bad car.
Discussing with you was interesting in the beginning, I quite enjoyed helping you to see the difference between a 911T, 993TT & 996TT; however, it has now turned into a meaningless exchange of words like two little kids fighting over a candy bar and it's quite cruel to the other readers here boring them to death.
Enjoy your XJR Pablo, all the best.
Whoever has followed this topic for a while knows I am not at all a religious defender of my car, but I am not going to conveniently shut up when someone buttresses a half-cooked pisconception and patchily researched prejudice. This is supposed to be a forum that others use for information, and you are spreading misinformation - it's simple as that.
Good day to you.
Only 3 XJRs are listed: one '99, two '98 that sell between 49-53k.
On E55s, 2 2001s are available, 2 200s, and one 1999 that sells for 67k. Try to make a profit when you resell that baby.
And 4 2000 M5s are available.
So all of htese cars are: (a) in short supply (b) expensive (c) something you ought to walk away from if you want to make a profit or find a bargain.
*Those* are the facts as evidenced by easily available resources provided one wants information, and not simply half-chewed gut-feel.
In the end, you got to buy what you like, and all 3 cars are magnificent machines.
I didn't get the Jag because it wasn't sporty enough and becuase I didn't like the supercharger whine.
With the E55, fact is that either you are willing to pay *significantly* more than MSRP (up to the mid-80s, I know I was offered one at $86k), or you must wait very patiently for a *long* time. While this looks like the perfect environment for deal-making, the problem is finding the E55 at a price that will allow you to make a profit from market consitions, and when you do, you better sell fast, since market conditions can shift very quickly. Today's hot demand car is old news in 12 months, max. So if your goal is to make money, you are not buying the car - you are buying and immediately selling. You should not drive it.
Pretty much the same goes for the M5, but not quite as hotly as for the E55.
Finally, you have the XJR. The wait for one is long. They are factory ordered, and the same games that you see in Merc dealerships with cars that "were bought in the MidWest" and are sold over MSRP to some buyers are played. With my Jag dealership, since I had bought my old car there, and they had been working on me to buy a new car for a while, when oportunity arose I played hardball. They knew I'd pay cash, but only if I got a good deal. And I did get one. Thusly, for me the compelling financial advantage lay with the XJR. Since I do not even remotely entertain thoughts of selling it anytime soon, the whole point is moot. Were I to sell it, the loss would be bad. But I suspect it would not be as bad than as if I had bought the E55 for well over $80k, wouldn't you agree?
The only valid and reliable gauge are the used prices published in sites such as this one - everything else is a roulette game, and you should never count on the market holding up like that even for another 6 months.
People that buy any of these cars typically do not consider the "depreciation aspect" that much, since it is somewhat of an unknown quantity, particularly one year down the road. To claim anything else is misleading. It's like saying you can predict the stock price for AT&T for the next year, really.
In none of the comparision tests between these 3 cars was the resale value mentioned as ranking criteria, and probably with a good reason.
And, the luxury tax and other fees are lost as soon as you turn the ignition key. That is several thousand $ of loss right there.
Again - I am not arguing in all likelyhood the E55 will hold its value somewhat better than the M5 and the M5 in turn over the XJR. But given the stiff initial price of these cars, the volatility of market desirability etc - I think the "value" condieration, while certainly valid, is of somewhat reduced significance. No professional reviewer brings up that consideration, and if it was such a major differentiator I am sure we'd heard about it. Jaguars have come a very long way in the last years, and that includes the huge depreciation associated with them some years ago. That was due to major reliability issues, and those are now turly entirely gone. I have driven Jaguars since 1994, and I have not had one single issue. I can't say the same about my 5 year BMW 3-series coupe ownership. The latter just being highly coincidental stuff, of course.
I did get my Jag well under $70k, loaded, without fees and taxes, of course, and got a lot of money for my old car, incidentally another Jag - the buyer loved the prisitne condition and color so much that they matched what *I* had paid for the car several years ago. Such are chancy market trends, and I can't say I had planned on it.
You know, I think the only gadget that may possibly work against aircraft or instant-on radar is a police scanner, such as the Uniden BearTracker BCT12 scanner:
http://www.jd-electronics.com/bearcat/bc12.html
I'm always curious if those things work.. I already have the V1 and K40 laser defuser installed but they're totally useless again aircrafts and instant-ons.
As to ".. the only gadget that may possibly work against aircraft .." I was thinking a little Scud missile, but didn't find any in autoanything.com... :-)
Definitely, one thing about these cars is that here in the US, with 65mph speed limits, they are fish out of water, and they invite infractions. After getting mine and feeling I'd broken it in well, for a while I was driving with adolescent antics, it's just too easy to put jerks that try to be all aggressive in their pitiful rides in their place, or drive way too fast on the highway... for some reason, after one such episode, I chilled a hell of a lot.
A new Jag XJ8 is due in '02, and what I have seen thus far does not look all too encouraging. I think the XJ8 is a design that established Jag's historical legitimacy, if they go for another shared base platform and a bubbly look, they might make the car more practical, but also kill off a huge part of the appeal of the Jaguar.
M
I picked up my E55 today, and it was at MSRP. The Jag dealer has 2 XRJ's on the lot, and they are also at MSRP. I drove the XJR for a week in LA and loved the car. I didn't look for an M5 because I want an automatic. All the reviews say that the XJR back seat is less comfortable than the E55, and i want to carry folks in the back on extended journeys. The XJR is the best looking of the 3 and has the nicest interior. It also seems to be the most available.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/9323/w211.htm
Varich, if you're interested in selling the BearTracker, please email me at e55_for_sale@yahoo.com, thanks. I had a 2000, wanted to sell it to upgrade to a 2001 but ended up directly trading in with the dealer. For what's worth, I bought the 2000 slightly under MSRP and after 10k miles and paying the dealer $1k, I got a 2001 model.
Btw, is yours a BCT10 or 12? How useful is it for the highway say if you have 20 miles between two urban areas or is it just too sensitive making it useless unless you're totally out in no-man's-land?
I have a V1 but I want something to protect me from instant-ons late at night when I don't have a fast car to follow. Aircraft is a concern too, I'm not very good at spotting them. Problem with the BeatTracker is that besides its sensitivity issue, I am not sure if I can find a place to mount it in a discrete manner.
Varich, since you have driven both the XJR and the E55, how do you compare the two in their straight line acceleration? The E55 should corner much better but I wonder about their straight acceleration. What I like about the E55 is that its traction control is quite advance, even if I leave it on, it doesn't interrupt too much so I still manage to have a fast and safe strong acceleration.
For me, the XJR besides its steep depreciation, there isn't enough headroom and I found the seat cushion too short. It's probably quite reliable unlike the models in the 80s but it's just too expensive for me to own. Yes, Pablo can continue to tease me about it.
As to straight line acceleration between the XJR and the E55, off the line they're probably pretty much identical with driver reaction time tilting the early advantage either way, but in the higher speed range the E55's better aerodynamics make a difference. It's somewhat surprising, since the E55's slightly lower power but slightly superior torque makes you expect the opposite, but aeordynamics and the Merc's refuse-to-go-away traction control seem to somewhat change things. I can't say I push the performance envelope in my car, but I was very duly impressed after a German colleague-friend took me from Munich to Frankfurt in his E55. The E55 seems to be the ultimate Autobahn tool. Incidentally, he just sold his E55, and is about to get a Porsche Turbo.
By the way, I fully agree with the argument that the XJR's interior space is far more cramped that the E55's - that is undisputable fact. But the interior is redeeming -at least to me- in other ways. I also find the Jag's very plush leather seats to find more comfortable, but it takes some fiddling to get the fit truly right, since the standard position tilts them forward way too much to preserve backseat legroom - that gives the impression that the seat is too short. Tilting it back gives you that leg support, but rear passengers' leg room suffers. I see the XJR as a 2 + 2 GT car, really. The rear seat passegners I've driven around have loved the car, and fell in love with the interior (everybody does), but I gather the love affair would have suffered a setback on a 6 hour drive.