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Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005
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However, I've never seen statistics about cracks and rattles. I'm quoting them here for posterity:
"The GM staff also handed me a sheet of paper containing J.D. Power scores for the "squeak and rattle" criterion for "premium mid-size" sedans, as reported by actual owners of actual cars — numbers I had not seen before.
Best-in-class was the Buick Century at 3.62 problems per hundred cars, followed by Chev Impala at 3.63, a projected number for the 2004 Grand Prix of 4.50, and the Buick Regal at 5.29.
The 2003 Grand Prix (built in Fairfax, Kan.) came next at 5.58, followed by Honda Accord (5.86), Chev Monte Carlo — also an Oshawa car — (6.24), 2003 Nissan Maxima (6.51), Nissan Altima (8.60), Volkswagen Passat (10.31) and Toyota Camry (12.12).
So much for the myth of Japanese or German quality superiority."
Mr. Lutz needs to know that seat fabric, all by itself, is enough that I would NEVER buy the current Grand Prix.
I have also test driven the current GTP with comp group. And a Mazda6.
I'll be buying the Mazda6 for many, many reasons, from handling to the interior to overall performance.
I doubt Mr. Lutz will be calling to ask my opinion, though.
ab348 : Fabric is fine, the pattern is the bad part. You should write Bob also.
I have also test driven an 04 Maxima SE (the one Lutz and the writer should have compared) and several 03 Mazda6's. I am waiting for SIRIUS to be available in the Mazda6, then I will buy one.
I don't post here just for you. I am not going anywhere. And my opinions are just as valid as yours. Actually more so. See, as I have stated several times, I have driven the car. I also have owned its predecessor.
The changes I see that Lutz has made to decontent the car are the ones that sadden me the most. A car is more than an engine.
Even Lutz concedes they could have done better with the interior. It's not just the hideous pattern on the cloth seats (this is not a cost issue--this is a MAKE THEM BUY LEATHER issue). Nope, the back seat is just unlivable. Totally uncomfortable for anyone over the age of about 11. Why do away with the coupe then turn the sedan into what amounts to a 2 + 2? (Actually a Jeep nut friend of mine answered that one, this is just like the seats...They need a serious back seat? Make them buy a Bonneville, a car that otherwise is not selling well)
I have other choices. Mr. Lutz needs to realize that. I strongly suspect he has his minions read this forum, so I am posting here. Letters can be ignored and answered with polite sounding tripe. Public opinions change things.
Dindak, I am sure you are a fine person. But, you come across as being GM's self-appointed apologist. My point is not to bash the car or GM. Others here do just fine at that, ad nauseum. But, you need to at least drive the car before you rush to its defense on every slight criticism.
The other day a friend of mine let me drive his new F150 Harley Davidson edition. It had great leather inside and it had the most awesome leather smell I have smelled in any car.
I have NEVER said that you points aren't valid and I HAVE also criticized parts of the new GP. Just because I defend some parts of the car that you don't like, does not make me this evil GM loyalist you are making me out to be.
I just think that if you dislike the car so much, make you point be known and move on with life. I want to hear more about what owners and others like and dislike about car itself, not the seat patterns all the time. My hope is GM does change the seats for next year and makes other improvements also. That said, over all I think the car is a winner in terms of performance and value from what I have seen so far. When my exams are over I plan to test for a final assessment but until then my 3 times in the car will have to do.
Let's cut to the chase....the reason the writer in the star backpedaled so much on his impression of the Grand Prix was because of all the pressure from the locals because he panned the car that was assembled right in the backyard. So, they had to concoct some positive press to appease the local apologists. Can't have a brand new 2004 built in the backyard that someone can badmouth! I suppose having a particular car built close by exempts it from scrutiny in the minds of many.
The whole point of the that test was merely to show the Grand Prix turning faster lap times, which it did. Put the SE max in there and the gap narrows. They did not attempt to proclaim either was the better overall car, because that'd be the Maxima.
Funny how they quickly mention the Grand Prix is not as refined but don't seem to make any light of it. As if refinement has no bearing on a car purchase decision or any part in determining what makes a car a class leader. But then again, GM ignores refinement quite often in comparison to other makes. Of course then, they would not want to dwell on it.
Actually reading through a lot of those Toronto Star articles made me sick. GM cheerleaders all the way. They praised the Cavalier of all cars and said something as ludicrous as The Ion could very well be GM's best small car. WELL NO DUH, the Ion is the only new GM small car in like 7 years! It better be! All the articles were like, the car is cheap so that makes it a good car. Very few articles seems to give examples of the reviewers having any sort of high standard on the performance or refinement and quality aspect. All cars start and run and have seats. They didn't seem to much other criteria than just the basics.
johncline- I would encourage you to take a Saab 9-3 Linear out as a comparison to the Mazda6, the 6 is a really good car, but I thought the Saab had a little more Verve, no turbo lag, and was a nicer ride overall for not too much more dough. Its chassis felt tighter also. One step up even is the Vector or Arc if you can foot the bill. But I can see why you are going with the 6....cheaper than the Max, and its refined all the way through for the most part (as long as you skip the cloth). If I can actually get a new car soon I may look to the 6hatch or wagon as a first option when it comes out. Not having driven the Max yet, I can't speculate on it but the price is dangerously close to the a4/3SERIES strippers.
I'm surprised the 04 Grand Prix's back seat is tight. My family has owned 3 Grand Prix including an 02 now which I can fit in the back seat fine. I 23 and about 5'6. Did GM actually take out room in the back seat for the 04 Grand Prix's?
Nice to see we are still on the seat discussion. How dull.
Johnclineii, how is it you think the GP has a cheap interior but yet drive an Impala which has one of the cheapest interiors I have ever seen? The 04 GP is light years ahead of the Impala!
"Fabric is fine, the pattern is the bad part."
Sort of like a doctor saying, "The operation was a success, but the patient died."
Went back to my friendly Pontiac dealer this weekend to see if they had any with parchment cloth interiors and see if that was any better in the uglycloth (TM Regd.) department. No dice, they have dozens of 2003s but only the same 4 '04 GPs they have had for weeks. The only new thing they received since I was there last were 2 identical '03 Bonneville SEs (they almost never have these in stock, so why they have 2 the same is a bit of a mystery). The nicest thing about them was the color, a shade called Steel Blue metallic I have not seen on any other GM car. Unfortunately for $34K Cdn they had bolt-on plastic wheelcovers and the seats, while nicely shaped and not upholstered in uglycloth, had some of the crudest-looking seam stitching I have seen in ages. Who makes GM's seats these days, the former Lada factory in Russia?
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Just like the center stack in the CTS are the dell factory rejects of computer cases.....
that flunkie who wrote the GP article for the Star may be well respected but still its obvious the local pressure he's under to backpedal from dissing the car. The fact that he came back to write a 'retraction article' and caved under pressure from a GM celebrity is total 'journalism for sale'. Of course he's gotta try and come up with a new positive article......he needs a paycheck like everyone else, I can see the local paper threatening to cut the cord if he doesn't appease the locals, many of whom actually build the car.
;-)
ab348 : Bonneville is an ok car, not good value and kind of big for my tastes. I can see why it doesn't sell well. A GXP version with a DOHC V8 is suppose to be on the way but it will be pricey. I'd take the CTS for the same likely cost of that.
No, a car is not only an engine, but it's not only an interior either. A car that can't brake in uneven pavement has no place in my garage.
Then again, I don't mean that the GP would be my choice, a judgment that I'm withholding until I test-drive one, when the local dealers have them, that is.
:-/
just looked at an ad for the 2004gp in the paper. compared its performance results to a bunch of cars, including an 03 Maxima. The track numbers for a comp group GTP lap time nearly identical (within like a tenth of a second i think it was) to an 03 Max SE. So the whole lap time thing is almost moot anyways. If a last years version of the Max with a beam axle can equal a 'competition group' IRS racing suspension of the NEW grand prix, then what does THAT mean?
So throw a superchager on the Nissan mill, then we'll talk. Oh wait, IT DOESN'T need a supercharger to get out of its own way and make respectable power.
I have literally driven thousands of the Impala,Regal,Century, and now the 2004 Grand Prix. Sincerely I have not noticed the unsightly upholstery fabric that you mention, because when I ride on them they are covered in plastic. But let tell you with my eyes closed I know that I am on a Grand Prix seat, nice firm support that grips your butt. I believe that the seats are also made in Canada by Lear Seating. The egress from the backseat is terriffic, because the doors open so wide.
If I can be of help let me know, but I will tell you the truth about my impressions of any of the Oshawa built cars, even though my livelyhood depends on their sales. That said we drive a 2002 Buick Rendezvous and a 2003 Camry ES.
Jeff
The interior door panels and upper dash I can maybe cut a little more of a break on than previously. The real problem is the natty hard plastic on the center stack and steering wheel hub. That's the cheap looking stuff. Leather wasn't great and the cloth was rather mousy looking. Maybe the impression of the plastics would be improved if the DESIGN of the interior wasn't so.....not even a word for it. No theme, no reason or rhyme......just a stylistic mess. At least the gauges are big and legible and not up in the center of the dash.
Carrying that theme to the exterior I can see where the biggest flaw is.....yes its even lower and wider looking, but man, its just a real unpleasant looking car overall (IMHO). Just totally nasty and rather disturbing much the way the Ion is disturbing looking but possibly more so.
Panel gaps did appear to be quite improved in the trunk area FWIW. Actually, the interior and exterior appeared quite well assembled, much more so than the protoypes at the autoshow. I think its fair to say they did improve the car in that regard.
The black GTP with light leather had marked to to 29,800....yikes, 30k for this car? NOT! Not even with all that hp.
A great excuse for GM lovers to go buy an Impala.....or hell a Saab 9-3 Linear or Arc would be a sweeter experience overall.....the Saab has a bigger rear seat for crying out loud.
I also think there will be some cross shopping though maybe less than in the past as the Max seems to be going a more route.
Regal, Grand Prix, Bonneville, Aurora....none of these cars have luxuriousy spacious backseats.
;-)
I only know one family of cars this side of Lincoln Town Car that has really large rear seat area - Chrysler LH cars.
I myself used to drive a '99 Chrysler 300M and yes the rear seats there are limo-like.
johnclineii, from a certain angle the rear of the new Maxi resembles the new GP. My problem with the new Maxi is the front of it. BTW, the best looking Maxima was the 89-94 generation. Not a bad sedan in it's day at all. IMO the new Altima(V6 model) has taken on the role that the Maxi used to play. Remember when Nissan billed the car as a 4DSC "four door sports car"?
oldsman01, I used to own a 90 Maxima SE, and I agree that was a great sedan both to look at and drive. I still miss that car.
Now you see why I had such high hopes for the 04 GTP!
Now, I got my Bonneville SLE for about $26000, how come a GP is got for almost $30000??? Even if this figure is MSRP, it's way bloated. I think that the GP is a darn good value when it's in the low-$20000 range, "puhlease"!
SLE's now START at more than $30k!
The Grand Prix prices are not out of line--not if you look at transaction prices and not sticker prices!
;-)
That said, I would not buy a GP with the cloth. I don't normally have a preference between cloth & leather, but the cloth in these 04's is ugly. The leather looks very nice in either color. GM conspiracy or not, the cloth is a flop. Otherwise, I like the interior. I know it's not for everyone, but to each his own! If you don't like the interior, go buy something else and quit wasting your time here. Come back next year and see if things change! What I'd personally like to see is the small tray that the old GP's had in the center of the back seat. My kids can't eat back there now or drink a soda without a 99% chance it will be spilled. I also miss the rear-view mirror's auto tint or whatever it was called. I didn't get much out of the dual climate control, but I know some did. Those things aren't enough to make me buy something else, but GM should not have eliminated those options. The back seats are low, and could get uncomfortable on a long trip, but my wife and I have our Tahoe for that, so it's not an issue for us.
I am one that considered the Maxima over the GP. The main reason I didn't give the Maxima more thought is that I'm 45 minutes away from a Nissan dealer. Not driving all that way for service.
Bottom line is, there's no car that will please everyone. Yes this car has some areas that could be improved upon. That's why there's 2005 and beyond. GM's in the car business to make money and they are good at taking it from many of us. Maybe they're over-priced, and maybe they're not. There are many things we buy every day that are over-priced, it just depends on who you ask. It doesn't matter. If you can't afford the asking price, don't buy one. I've read quite a few negative posts on this car here and can't believe all the crying about the little things. Get over that and enjoy what this car does ON THE ROAD! I did, and it's special. After all, a car is meant to be driven, isn't it?
ctl1, you've got a good point on the GP's price and performance versus the competition. In 97 when the last generation came out, you'd have to spend way over 30K to get nearly anything else with the same level of performance. As I mentioned earlier, both the GP and the new Maxi can creep into luxury car territory when loaded up with options. For little more than what a loaded GTP comp-g stickers for, I can get a Saab 9-3 Arc or Cadillac CTS. My guess is the GP will be discounted as they have always been. I'd personally like to see GM price their cars at a "resl world" price and not have to fool with the discounts and rebates.
greg, I have the cloth and it's ok in my opinion. More importantly the seat are very comfortable for long highway trips. Over all I think this car in GT form is one of the best 6 cyl sedans on the road in terms of handling, power, ride and quality. No regrets.
As for the Maxima, it was a fair bit more than my GT and I really didn't want to spend any more than C$30K.
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“GM will add more standard equipment to the redesigned car and will try to raise the transaction price”
This article raises a very interesting issue. (actually several.)
Clearly the Grand Am has for years slotted below the GP in Pontiacs hierarchy. With the possibility of AWD and a (small) hp advantage over the 2004 GP, and much more distinctive exterior styling, (like it or not) where would this leave the GP RE: the GA? Is this why it will be re-named? Will it actually slot between the GP and the Bonne? Will it be priced higher than the GP? And what will the interior look like? What interior materials will they use?
And what will 2005 bring for the GP? Dual A/C?
And will the 2006 Bonne be related? Or based on the new RWD Caddy CTS?
So many questions . . .
Should be interesting times ahead!
Cheers,
- Ray
Who is not currently in need of a new car – and looking forward with interest to 2004 and beyond . . .
The G6 looks way cool, hopefully it will get the full Lutz influence. You are right, the GP was likely mostly done when he arrived. I know he scrapped the Regal which is why it's not coming until next year.
So for those who may want to send their feedback on the 2004 GP, you might get something like this:
"Thank you for contacting the Buick Customer Assistance Center. We appreciate
your suggestions for the future products of Buick.
We are interested in your suggestions and appreciate it when customers like you
take the time to write to us about them. We value the opinions of our customers
and we always take them into consideration as we plan for future models.
Thank you for giving us this opportunity to assist you.
We have documented your concern under Service Request #1-102633842. To contact
us, please e-mail us again or call our Buick Customer Assistance Center at
1-800-521-7300. Customer Relationship Managers are available Monday through
Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m
Please don't hesitate to contact us again if you need further assistance.
Sincerely,
Ms. Jade Brown
Customer Relationship Manager
Buick Customer Assistance Center"
I have to say, although a pleasant experience in my drive, GM missed the mark. Yes the new GTP has clean lines but once you get inside it ends there. I found the interior dash/console package quality to be extremely low end value (I kept thinking about the Camaro/Firebird interior) and how will this look after 3 years. The instrument cluster layout is fine. I would have liked to see the TAP shift not on the steering wheel but on the stick as it should be.
I question why no 5 speed auto tranny and in this day of powertrains is a supercharger still in? Should GM go the way of normal aspiration, you would think after all these years of the 3800 engine they would get higher numbers without supercharging?
As far as pricing wait until the fall when GM throws incentives on the hood and you can talk down to invoice pricing, wont be long..right now I was offered a $500 rebate and 5.9% financing.
Next inline is to see what Buick and Chevy do........as I see it this GTP model run will be VERY competetive with the likes of the Mazda 6 and others.