Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Voyager

carleton1 · March 2001

A very important posting to retain in my files for future reference. Obviously it will be important to be very alert so that if and when the first problem occurs with my GC I should hurry
down to the nearest DC, Toyota or Honda dealer to trade it off.
Many of my friends have owned DC minivans (some are now on 3rd one) and none have had major problems (except for one who inherited an old dog 1986 Caravan that was bought by her father from a fly by night used car dealership. That old dog had engine problem and when she had engine rebuilt, the mechanic said it looked like it had gone 187,000 or 287,000 instead of 87,000 as indicated on odometer. The 86 odometer rolled over at 100,000 miles). When a person buys an old, abused dog from a fly by night 2nd hand joint, it is my opinion that they are buying some expensive problems.

geoduck · March 2001

Tom-
First, you got a great deal.

I fully understand your anxiety regarding the purchase of an AWD T&C. Prior to our buying the same vehicle 4 months ago, we had never owned an American brand (in over 20 years of car purchasing) and we were nervous going in, but surprisingly I haven't had any nagging feelings since

Premature transmission failure was the major risk we worried about, as I know several folks who had problems with pre-1997 vans. While Consumers Reports is not a holy source to me, their compiling owners survey data is a great service. I have been encouraged by the reliability trends for T&C transmissions over the past 3 years . It seems like major problems leveled out around 1997.
Furthermore, their data shows that the overall quality of Chrysler vehicles is pretty decent - better than most US makes-and not that far behind most Japanese brands. This gives me hope.

The 2100rpm effect seems somewhat variable for each vehicle. We are lucky-- the noise is tolerable--unobnoxious enough to converse with my 3yr old. Certainly worth having the functionality of an excellent AWD system. Maybe a fix will magically appear real soon, but I counted on something to be problematic on a version 1.0 model.

Otherwise, the T&C's quality seems excellent and owning one has been fun. Test drive one everyday for a week and you will be better able to gauge if you can live with the 2100rpm noise.

drew_ · March 2001

You're welcome...Since it seems that your van is in good shape now after 2 years, I'm betting that it probably will be for the future too. I suppose it's a question as to whether you are in the good or bad batch. Arguably there shouldn't be these sorts of erroneous batches, but still I'm sure that your dealership can rectify them, just like mine has (or at least tried their best to). I definitely wouldn't jump the gun and get rid of it. After all, ours is 7 years old now and it still runs pretty darn well! The AWD is excellent in the rain and snow, especially with the highly rated BFGoodrich Control T/A M65 tires (only 3K kilometres old) that are fitted to it right now.

The 3.8L V6 engine, while definitely not always as refined as some of the newer SOHC or DOHC designs out there, is torquey and that makes it more than adequate in most conditions. I do have to say that in certain uphill conditions, the transmission gearing could've been better matched with the engine. It seems that there is a big gap between 2nd and 3rd gear, and I have had to shift it between 3 and 4, or 2 and 3 when climbing up one of our local ski hills. That or leave the engine whirling away at 3500-4000rpms, obviously not something I want to do. This seems to have been rectified with the newer (like yours) models, at least with the loaner Chrysler minivans that I've driven, as well as the ones my friends own.

My fuel economy is not particularly good though, probably because I live on a mountain (about 700 feet above seat level; the town is at sea level) and do a fair bit of hill climbing almost daily. Fuel economy is usually about only 14-16 mpg. If I drive on the highway though, 20 mpg is possible. Due to the slightly smaller fuel tank with the AWD models, as well as my hill climbing, I am only able to squeeze about 290 kilometres out of one tank of gas. Ah well...

Just my humble opinion :-)

Best of luck!

Drew
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jackfactor · March 2001

Has anyone investigated getting a EX and having aftermarket leather put in? I wonder what that would cost. I have heard of people doing this on the Honda. I ask because the price between a LXI FWD with leather and similar options - except for the left power door is so much more even with the rebate.
Any more info on if the 3.5 will be coming this year or on the 2002.

carleton1 · March 2001

What vehicles has your family owned?
Experiences of my friends has indicated to me that the BEST reliability of major Japanese brand vehicles is as follows (in order of Most Reliable first):
#1. Toyota
#2. Honda
#3. Tie of Mitsubishi and Nissan
#5. Tie of Suzuki and Mazda
#7. Last place Izuzu
Is there any correlation with Japanese brand reliability to the fact that a major stockholder of Mitsubishi is Chrysler, Suzuki is GM, Mazda is Ford, and last place Izuzu is GM?
And Korean made vehicle reliability is about on a par with Izuzu...but ahead of Fiat and Yugo?
Although I have owned primarily GM vehicles since my first car, a 1950 Chevrolet 4 door sedan bought in 1957, I would NOT want any GM vehicle that has any parts supplied by Izuzu...including the much-hyped, powerful new Izuzu/GM Turbodiesel in GMC and Chevrolet vehicles. I recall too vividly the disgust my niece had with GM cars based on her 1981 Chevy Chevette (designed and made by Izuzu).

shepherd5 · April 2001

I would look into what your monthly payments will come out to. I too waited for the EX to be available in my area before finally ending up with a Limited. My advice is to calculate what the monthly payment on the LXi will be using no rebates and 0.9% to 3.9% financing (depending on how long you want to finance it for) and do the same for the EX using whatever rate you can get for it. Keep in mind the LXi feels more luxurious than the EX. When I ran the numbers, the Limited costs $70/month more for 5 years. This amounted to $4,200 over the 5 year period. At this point, I figured the enjoyment I derive from a much more luxurious Limited is well worth the extra $70/month (but keep in mind I am getting a tax break because I am using it for business purposes). I hope this gives you a useful perspective.

drew_ · April 2001

We're mostly a Mercedes-Benz family, but my parents and relatives have owned quite a few number of Nissans in the past. Obviously they're quite reliable or repeat purchases wouldn't be made.

We've only owned one Toyota, a '99 Toyota Camry XLE V6 (one of the few built in Toyota City, Japan) and for the short one year that it was with us before it was replaced by a MB, it was great. I did have a problem with the front brakes grinding after a month that it was bought. The brakes were cleaned a couple of times and then a TSB came out specifying brand new pads (different compound). To my surprise they not only changed all 4 pads, but all 4 rotors as well. No problems after that...the car was bought from the high rated (for customer satisfaction) Toyota dealership in this area.

I comment about Hondas from personal experience, but friends have had excellent experiences with them, mostly Accords and Civics, which seems to back up Consumer Reports' reliability ratings. Subaru seems to be way up there around Honda/Toyota levels of reliability and quality as well. Remarkable for such a small manufacturer. As for Mitsubishi, it's not sold in Canada so I can't really comment on that. I'd expect that they're up there too, but possibly below Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. Mazdas I don't have any personal experience with either, but from C.R and from family friends who are repeat buyers, they appear to be highly regarded, and definitely more reliable than Suzuki. Isuzu has improved significantly over the last few years and I would say that they have average or above average reliability. None of their products interests me though.

Overall, the domestic vehicles seem like they still have some catching up to do with their Japanese counterparts. Perhaps it may be because the Japanese brands don't nickle and dime the same way that the domestic makes seem to. I was shocked that Chrysler decided to compromise the design of the tailgate latch just to save 25 cents per vehicle. It was only after a few tragic events where the tailgates opened in a rear end collision that they had a recall (which ended up costing them more than 25 cents per vehicle). Yes, my vehicle was part of the recall campaign. Then there is Ford who tries to save a couple of dollars from a ignition module placement, and GM, with the fuel tank location fiasco of a few years ago.

IIRC, the Chevette was a GM design (not Isuzu) and it was basically a cheap car thrown together with various components from the corporate parts bin. Not surprising that it wasn't particularly well made, especially two decades ago where domestic car quality was far below the Japanese.

You may be interested in reading this (there is something in the Chevette on the 2nd link):

http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/flintspeech.htm

http://www.freep.com/business/gmfire7_20000107.htm

Anyway, I digress...back to the topic at hand. Hope you find the above links good reading at least.

Drew
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carleton1 · April 2001

And GM top brass needed a dose of reality. I have driven mostly GM...then got a 1971 VW Super Beetle for 2nd car and traded 67 Impala in on a new Volvo 145S. Later traded Volvo in on a 75 VW Rabbit...and could not wait to get back to GM and traded 75 Rabbit in on a 76 Chevy Nova (6 cyl 4 door made by GM...not Corolla Clone). After Volvo disaster and same with 5 VW, I stayed with GM for reliability and less costly maintenance.
We looked at all minivans very closely and narrowed it down to Ody and GC. Got 99 GC SE and love it but DC brass needs a pep talk like GM got in your links above. DC takes many nice features off all but most expensive minivans and then comes out with an EX model that has some nice features...but some I do NOT want. Why not just offer the more desirable 3.8L V6 and Trip Computer on all minivans? Would now get either Ody LX or Sienna LE.

Mercedes: Friends who owned them loved them but said MB safety and quality comes with a price: they are costly to purchase and routine maintenance is very expensive.

drew_ · April 2001

FYI, routine maintenance is free for the first four years for all US MB vehicles. Oil changes are every 10K-20K miles. The computer will calculate when you need to go in to the dealership based on your driving style and other environmental changes. Yes, they're more costly to maintain and service, but I guess if you can afford one, you should be able to afford the other costs too. They're no more expensive to maintain (in fact as cheap as Chrysler in many situations based on our experiences) than other luxury vehicles though.

I have to agree with the trip computer bit, but I think it's to cut costs. As for the 3.8L V6, perhaps some people don't want/need the larger engine and the accompanying fuel consumption costs. The new 3.5L V6, if it ever make production, is a step in the right direction. Smoother/more refined, less fuel consumption, cleaner, and more powerful. I think Chrysler's shareholders have blasted them already, so perhaps they're waking up. We'll see what happens in the next few months. It's for the better, I hope!

Good luck

Drew
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pgs_28 · April 2001

Dimitero

Hi... I couldn't help but notice your post. This is definitely good news. Can you tell me what this fix consists of and what the attribute the problem to? Any more information would be appreciated including a phone number I could call for clarification.

Thanks

dimitero · April 2001

I talked a second time to the dealer. He was much more vague. He said Chrysler was aware of the issue and was coming up with a solution but we do not know when...it is presumed that the dealers will be receiving it, maybe a KIT or something. He said he will call me.He still has not however..

kendolin · April 2001

Has anyone started to look at what may be causing the resonance?

I know that the MY 99 Mustang Cobra's had a vibration around 70 mph, which was related to the driveline (http://www.blueovalnews.com/svtproblems.htm).

Also, a common modification of the Ford Taurus SHO is to bypass the restrictive air intake (http://www.v8sho.com/sho/intake1.html). The effect of this is right at 3400 rpm when the intake secondaries open, a noticeable howl is felt (especially in the accelerator pedal) and heard. It occurs right at 3400 rpm and dissipates quickly as the revs climb. The howl is most prominent at high load and less prominent, but still noticeable, under smooth throttle application. The noise is similar to the howl that Don Knott's character makes in the Incredible Mr. Limpett movie. This modification may violate emission warranties as well as EPA noise levels. This second issue may prompt DC to fix the problem if the noise goes above EPA standards.

My wife took delivery today of a 2001 AWD Limited. When I get home Thursday, I will investigate some more.

Ken

josal · April 2001

I just picked up my EX and love it. I should just give up and be happy BUT... Paid 25,600. (including the ad fees that we didn't expect) salesman claims it $47 over invoice. Of course we had to add 8.25% tax. Salesman gave us copy of invoice but it is a copy and how do I really know if it is the real one! Anybody get a better price?? I have a case of buyers regret that we could have got a better deal!

carleton1 · April 2001

All DC ads state that the EX is not eligible for discounts, rebates, incentives. When you get an EX for less than MSRP, the purchase is a very good deal.

bbumassfan · April 2001

Just purchased and picked up a I&I EX with side airbags for $25,807.00. This was roughly $150 over invoice which I consider to be a very good deal. Live in NH so there is no sales tax! The dealer was great to do business with and my wife and I love the van. This is our first mini van. The EX is simply a great vehicle with great features for a great price.

fly6869 · April 2001

We bought a T&C EX inferno red for $26081 final price including tax. Used frieds and family coupon and recent graduate discount. Dealer called days later and asked us to pay them the discounts back because they didn't know that the EX was not to be sold with any discounts. Had to have an attorney call them to get title work sent because they wanted their money or the van back. After all this, the van with 800 miles developed an oil leak. The dealer today had to replace the power stearing rack. Hopefully not a sign of things to come. By the way, a dealer here in Ohio is already making plans to install leather seats in some EX's.

carleton1 · April 2001

Too bad you didn't have the attorney tell them to refund every penny you paid. They made money on the EX they sold you although it may not have been as much as they would like.

kcapri13 · April 2001

I bought my wife a T&C EX for MSRP with 1.9% Fin. for 48 MO. I know Chrysler made a mistake, but I wasn't going to tell them. By the way it's a great van.

carleton1 · April 2001

And as either a Chrysler T&C or Dodge GC it is an excellent buy at MSRP. Please let us know how you like the power liftgate and the modern design passenger power sliding door that also works very well manually.

stever · April 2001

Making a Marketable Minivan

Steve
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h20guy · April 2001

Now you started it Steve.

stever · April 2001

Well, the "I Don't Like SUVs'" discussion seems to be dying, so I thought I'd inject some controversy into your lives over here :-)

Steve
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oreo2 · April 2001

Looking for input for experienced mini-van owners. I recently purchased a 01 DC T&C LX with towing package, no hitch. Is it best to have the dealer install a hitch, or will an RV dealer be just as good if not better. I will be towing a pop up GVW of @2600 and a TW of @250. What about a equalizer hitch, are they worth the money? Any input would be appreciated.

jfz219 · April 2001

I have had hitches on my 1996 and 1998 T&C vans. I didn't get one for my 2001 when I took delivery because of availability. Reese, Draw-Tight, and U-Haul have class 2 and 3 systems. These are bolted to the unibody at the bumper attachment sites. Most hitch dealers will answer your questions as far as the appropriate application for your needs. I had a 2" receiver setup that worked great.

carleton1 · April 2001

And he apparently has not read in the Edmund's Town Hall where Odyssey transmission problems are a well documented fact. He overlooks the lack of padding on the Odyssey's armrests on the doors, the lack of a quality stereo, the lack of ability for front passenger and driver to set their own temperature comfort level, the lack of a Trip Computer, etc.
And he apparently has not read Consumer Reports where Odyssey reliability has dropped. Not everyone needs to haul a dozen sheets of sheetrock home each week from Home Depot so the "Magic Seat" is not the sole criteria for most people in selecting a minivan as it is for Mr. Wardlaw. The "Fish Eye" mirror in the Windstar is a safety hazard as one must move their eyes too far away from the driving line of sight to look at the activities of the children in the rear.
And why doesn't Mr. Wardlaw state the ACTUAL PRICE paid for a vehicle instead of MSRP? Edmunds paid well above MSRP for the test Odyssey while most consumers buy a DC minivan at a nice discount. Come on Edmunds, be more realistic and state actual prices paid.

stever · April 2001

Maybe it's because he owns a Sienna?

Steve
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h20guy · April 2001

I told ya steve this would happen. ;-]

h20guy · April 2001

I forgot to ask will this ever end??? I hope not, it's too much fun!! :]]

ed12 · April 2001

Folks:

Reference the price of the Caravan vs the Odyssey. I got a comparable quote on a Honda Oydessy and the Dodge Grand Caravan ES very nicely equipped. This was on a 42 month lease.

carleton1 · April 2001

If you want comfort get the Grand Caravan ES. If ease of access for cargo space is more important, get the Odyssey. One of Edmund's writers feels that the Magic Seat is more important than comfort, neglects the many reported transmission failures in Odysseys, and the lower reliability ratings of recent Odysseys...while transmission reliability and overall reliability of Chrysler T&C, Voyager and Dodge Caravan has been increasing.
For many of us, the BEST heating/airconditioning system of the DC minivans, a high quality stereo,etc. are more important than cargo carrying flexibility.

jfine · April 2001

I have a Dodge GC 2001 with a horrible howling wind noise from mid rear at speeds above 40mph. Anybody else have this problem?

jfz219 · April 2001

Before you do anything else, remove or move to the rear the cross members of your roof rack.

rolfe2 · April 2001

jfine -- You're in luck. Ask your dealer to replace your roof rack crossbars in accordance with TSB 23-002-01 dated Feb 16, 2001 Subject: Roof Rack Wind Noise/Howl Sound.

--rolfe.

shelbydog25 · April 2001

Where can I periodically check for any TSB notices for my 01 DC GC?

stever · April 2001

You can find links to Recall notices and TSBs, under the Safety banner here.

Steve
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pgs_28 · April 2001

Thx for the info on how to access a few TSBs relating to SAFETY. However, does anyone know where I can get a list of all TSB for the 2001 T&C Ltd? I noticed that Rolfe quoted a TSB number above that was not related to a safety issue and was not part of the database that Steve suggested. Any help would be appreciated.
Thx

stever · April 2001

hmmm, I'd suggest alldata.com, but they don't seem to have the '01 model info posted yet.

The NHTSA link does have the howling problem listed--just has a different #--(Service Bulletin Number: 00063). When I compared their database using my '99 Quest, 21 records show up (including, for example, a sunroof cycling issue--is that a safety issue?). Only two TSBs show up at alldata, but 16 show up for the Villager twin. Now I'm really confused! Maybe you can get a dealer to show you the list?

Steve
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jackfactor · April 2001

I was looking forward to the 3.5 improved engine until I read this:

http://chicago.tribune.com/marketplaces/cars/printedition/article/0,2669,SAV-0103080002,FF.html

Nice marketing skills. It looks like the Germans scapped this plan to focus on the EX and regain share lost to Honda with the lower priced vans.

I am now putting off any purchase until the 2002 models are coming out this fall to see if they will offer the new engine as well as any updates and fixes. If they do not then I will get the 2001 when they are tring to clear them out at model year end. It stinks that they announced it and then pulled it away.

brian3240 · April 2001

Have I got this straight;
-all 2001 wad DC vans have the 2100 ram howl.
-nobody knows why
-DC issued a service bulletin (NTSC #00063
-all of us owners continue to wait
-nobody has challenged DC for a refund

carleton1 · April 2001

Since the 3.8L has the most HP AND Torque of any minivan .... and does not require the costly premium fuel. I prefer the 3.8L V6 with its proven reliability over the newer technology 3.5L.
My lesser 3.3L in my 99 GC SE has more than enough power for most of my needs even though I would opt for the 3.8L over the 3.3L or new 3.5L.

aps5 · April 2001

Hi Rolfe. I have just lived with the roof wind noise. Is this TSB to completely replace the cross bars? Do you know what was wrong with them? I fiddle with them sometimes, and the sound is fixed, only to come back.

Thanks.

1lowrider · April 2001

My first post got lost, so here it is again: My 96 Grand Caravan (3.3 engine w/ 52k on it) began running rough a few days ago. The "service engine soon" light came on. Took it in to the Dodge dealership and they replaced plugs and wires. Didn't fix it. They looked further and discovered a problem with the rear cyclinder. It needs to be replaced and a cost of $1,750. The warranty - of course - was 3yrs/36k. It seems to me Dodge should cover part or all of this repair. Doesn't seem to me the cylinder should fall apart after 52k miles, with regular maintenance completed. Anybody have some thoughts?

stever · April 2001

While working to fix some problems today the database was corrupted. Unfortunately we were only able to recover data up to this morning - meaning that most posts made to Town Hall today are missing. We'll find out in the morning if the people pulling the all-nighter can recover them. Apologies.

Steve
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pgs_28 · April 2001

Hi Rolfe

As usual you are on top of everything. It has been awhile and I'm still in a state of disappointment over this resonance problem. Contrary to the fact that most people are saying that it is a AWD problem, I know for a fact that it is also a FWD problem. I know cause I have it. The wind noise of course is pretty bad but I attributed it to the increase noise reduction insulation in the body. But today I actually heard some howling and whistling. Can you be really specific as to what the TSB said. Also, if anyone on this planet knows how to secure TSBs on the 2001 T&C LTD than it is you. How did you get them and where did you get them and could you share them with us.... please.

Keep us all up-to-date on the resonance/vibration issue. Thx again for you very eloquent posts.

Paul

shelbydog25 · April 2001

I too also had my 96 Voyager rear cylinder head replaced. My 3.3L had 63,000 miles and the service engine light came on. I could hear what sounded like an arcing noise above 2500 rpms . I pulled the codes which indicated a "cylinder miss fire" at which time I replaced the coil pack. Still more arcing sound. Then I replaced plugs and wires. Still more arcing sound. Turned out to be a crack clinder head - rocker arm tower. My quote was $ 1,200.00 repair. I'm a shade tree mechanic and did some more research with full time Dodge mechanics who say the 3.3L is relatively bullet proof..... Maybe so, but my wife now drives a 2001 GC..... Heads up! 96' Wasn't a good year for DC....

rolfe2 · April 2001

Paul, the way I got the TSB was that I think someone on this conference referred to it (I believe by number) and I simply asked my dealer to print it for me, which they did. I have it in front of me. Unfortunately, there is boilerplate on it forbidding its reproduction, transmittal, etc. Otherwise, I'd be glad to quote it. Again, it's TSB 23-002-01.

I wish I knew a reliable place on the web to see all TSBs, but I don't. I'm aware of alldata, but they don't seem to be current.

My communication with other owners, much of if offline from this forum, convinces me that the 2100 rpm resonance issue is PRIMARILY (almost exclusively) in AWD. DC has concluded that it IS exclusively in AWD from everything that I can determine. What I'm saying is that your FWD seems to be an exception. I base this opinion on having driven about 3 FWDs and 3 AWDs personally, but also knowing another person that drove a total of over 15 vehicles (both FWD and AWD) specifically trying to select one with minimal 2100 rpm resonance.

So it might be that you have something else wrong. One way to confirm that is to take a test drive with a technician in both your vehicle and another FWD on the lot and compare. You do the driving and reproduce the problem. (I did this with AWDs.)

Fortunately or unfortunately, I've learned quite a bit about how things work with DC (though not enough yet) during this whole noise experience. I'm told by a reliable source that if you are dealing with a 5-star dealership and have less than 15,000 miles on your vehicle, you get VIP treatment (but I'm not sure this is common knowledge). Has to do with the requirements for them to maintain 5-star status. But don't be bashful in any event :-)

Thanks for the appreciative comment. I try to post the kind of information I'd appreciate discovering here, and I really strive to be accurate.

--rolfe.

fly6869 · April 2001

T&C EX has been in the shop since Tues. and will not be out until at least next Tues. Developed another oil leak, this time a timing chain cover and the part seems to be hard to find. Did I perhaps buy one of the first EX lemons? Dissapointed already; hate giving "magic seat" owners any more ammo. Van has 1300 miles at this time. Hopefully things will work out..

carleton1 · April 2001

Looks like fly6869 may have got a lemon...just like the Odyssey lemons I have read about in the Town Hall. There are even Sienna minivans with problems which is highly unusual for a Toyota.
I have read about Chrysler lemons in CR and other places but NOT one of the many Chrysler minivans owned by friends has had problems. The top reliability track record of DC minivans in the real world where I live convinced me to take a gamble and buy a new 1999 GC SE...which so far has had ZERO problems.
That Dual Zone Temp was VERY nice today while driving in moderate weather where the person on the sunny side FEELS much warmer than the one on the other side.

hayneldan · April 2001

Minivan comparasion
Check this site for a head to head comparision of Odyssey and DC vans.http://www.detnews.com/autosweekly/0104/11/lead/lead.htm Alexjr1 check the head knocker on the Honda Odyssey inside view. Any comments?

rolfe2 · April 2001

Finally, some encouraging news on the AWD 2100 resonance problem.

I heard from a reliable source today that Chrysler has identified the problem and is somewhere in the process of redesigning the front driveshaft. They will work or are working with vendors to determine cost, delivery dates, etc. for a replacement. The plan is to have a fix available by "summer." It will probably not be a recall, but a TSB or special service program to deal with customer complaints.

I can't personally vouch for this information, and sorry, but I can't reveal my source. If this information is vital to you, I'd suggest that you have your dealership confirm it with your District Sales Manager. If you do so, please post what you hear back.

--rolfe.

Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Voyager

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