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Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Voyager

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Comments

  • scannerscanner Posts: 295
    Larrysheer,


    "With all of the postings on the 2100 rpm noise, I'm surprised that there have been so few thoughts on what its source may be?"


    That's because this is Edmunds and not a site where they post thoughts on solutions.


    But, here's a hint:


    http://detnews.com/autosweekly/0008/30/eye/eye.htm

  • pgs_28pgs_28 Posts: 34
    Well that was a great idea. Extremely constructive.

    Okay let me try and describe it to you.

    1) It does not happen in idle. I have tried to put the van in gear with the brake on and accelerate to 2100 RPMs but I can't seem to get the RPM up that high.

    2) It is not so much a noise as it is a vibration. Like the vibration you would feel on a motorcycle but you feel this on on your gas pedal and occassionally in the mid seats if the driver can maintain the RPMs at the point where it vibrates.

    3) It is not connected to the fan motor... it happens all the time. Although I seem to feel it more when the van is cold. Winter in Toronto.

    4) I think it is connected with the Transmission or engine. However the engine must be under load for you to notice it. Idling at 2100 doesn't produce it. It happens at the low end of each gear. More noticeable at gear 1 going up hill and on the highway.

    5) I had my spare tire squared as per a previous suggestion. The exhaust is not touching the body anywhere and all the exhaust clips are accounted for.

    6) I have noticed what sounds like an odd exhaust sound that happens when I start the car in the morning in temperatures less than 0 C or 32 F. It is difficult to describe this sound but it sound like it is coming from the exhaust. It may be a slight leak in the exhaust... hmmm....

    7) It is not a noise like described by some others. It is a low frequency hummmm with a vibration attached to it. Once you find it and notice it, it becomes very annoying.

    Thanks for lending a helping hand. My email is [email protected]
    I will come to the board often to see your thoughts on the matter.

    thanks!
  • abealiabeali Posts: 13
    I find your remark rude and without class ...

    "Thoughtfull" people such as yourself should not be wasting time on this forum with "thoughtless" people like us. You should start your own forum ... " For arrogant people only" would be an appropriate name ... What a laugh - and a sad existence!
  • rolfe2rolfe2 Posts: 81
    FWIW, here are my answers to your questions (2001 GC ES AWD with trailer towing pkg):

    a) No, there is no 'vestige' at 0 mph. In other words, revving the engine to 2100 at standstill in neutral does not produce the resonance. To the contrary, you have to put some load on the engine to make it resonate, such as by pulling up a hill, even a fairly slight hill.

    b) Same results with stock tires and snow tires (latter: Michelin Artic Alpin);

    c)Engine cold or hot makes no difference;

    d)All seats in or all removable seats out makes no difference;

    e) In my case, my dealer found that my spare tire was against the exhaust system. When he corrected that, it reduces but did not eliminate the noise. I don't (yet) have other experience about what dealers will do when pressed.

    To reiterate an earlier post, to get a better handle on the situation, I test drove a GC ES FWD over a 'test course' consisting of a hill and then a GC ES AWD over the same course immediatly afterwards, specifically trying to reproduce the problem. I convinced myself that the problem is unique to the AWD, 'though I acknowledge my sample size is small. Some FWD subscribers here also report noise issues, but it's hard to say whether we'll all talking about the same thing.

    Those are my observations. Now for my speculations.

    a) Since you're an engineering-type, you'll appreciate my opinion that this 'noise' is a resonance, some kind of harmonic thing; It is sharply 'tuned' to 2100 RPM +/-.

    b) Because I'm specifically listening for it, I think that the 3.8L/powertrain combo in all these vehicles (FWD and AWD) has a natural frequency of the equivalent of 2100 RPM or so.

    c) That said, there is obviously more metal to move around in the AWD powertrain, and I think that exacerbates the problem such that it becomes annoying (at least to some) rather than unnoticeable.

    d) I believe this is a design issue, not an assembly issue. Other posts to the contrary, I believe the noise doesn't vary from one AWD vehicle to another as much as the tolerance to it of the individual owners varies.

    e) I originally said here that I thought it was either an intake manifold or exhaust system problem. I'm now leaning strongly toward the latter, partly based on my experience with the effect of the spare tire thing.

    f) As far as DC fixing the problem is concerned, the way it seems to work is that every individual dealer's shop struggles to address their complaining customer's problem. If unsuccessful, they have the option of calling for help. In my opinion, only when enough complaints percolate up from the service departments will engineering get involved. They will need to become convinced that it's a universal problem and/or that it is hurting sales (which from what I read, DC could use more of). (BTW, I also have reported this issue to DC Customer Service, as an earlier poster suggested. They claimed not to have heard of it before.)

    Because of the confusion in the minds of some prospective buyers, here is my suggestion if you are considering the AWD. Test drive one by going up a hill at a steady 2100 RPM and listening. The problem is 100% reproducible. You will quickly determine whether this is an issue for you (it may or may not be).

    Finally, to put things in perspective it's time for me to make one more thing clear. I'm thrilled with this vehicle, overall. It has far exceeded my expectations for fit, finish, amenities, comfort, power, handling, even overall quietness (the resonance not withstanding). If you look at reviews of the 1996-2000 model and note their complaints (e.g. poor headlights, marginal power, heavy rear seat, etc.) you will see that most if not all the issues have been addressed.

    I've now had a chance to put the AWD to the test with a nasty drive over Mt. Hood (Government Camp) OR in a blizzard. At least with my Michelin Artic Alpins, both the ability to accelerate and brake on snow was superb -- I was really impressed.

    I apologive for the long-winded post. Hope it's helpful to some.

    --rolfe.
  • rolfe2rolfe2 Posts: 81
    Immediately after I posted my long winded answer to larrysher above, I found the post from pgs28. The point I wish to make is that you'll find these reports/answers very similar -- and neither of us had read the other's post before constructing them.

    I'd like to add my observation that it doesn't seem to make any difference what gear you are turning 2100 RPM in, or at what road speed. Except that in OD, it is less noticeable because at 65MPH or so, there is additonal wind and road noise that tends to mask it.

    On another note, I appreciate those in this forum who communicate in a positive vein and on-topic.

    --rolfe.
  • pgs_28pgs_28 Posts: 34
    Rolfe.. eloquently put. You are dead on. Just one additional note. I have a 2001 T&C FWD so although you're idea that it is potentially only evident in the AWD is incorrect. However, you may be right in terms of the serverity due to the additional metal bulk required for AWD.

    Maybe you could post the phone number you called so others could follow suite.

    I kind of thing it may be some kind of resonance from the exhaust but it has a long way to travel to the accelerator pedal.

    I went to the website noted in one of the posts and I certainly agree with the observation. However the T & C is not a sports car. I expect the acceleration to be smooth on the pedal and reasonably quiet.

    Thx
  • scannerscanner Posts: 295
    Abeali,

    Thank you. I agree with your message, but I didn't mean to imply that people are "thoughtless". Think of it as a means of motivation. Sometimes it's just better to let people figure things out for themselves. For example, I'm pretty sure Honda owners wouldn't like it if I came over in their topic and informed them the power doors on their Odyssey were engineered by General Motors.

    http://detnews.com/1997/biz/9702/25/02250103.htm

    --

    Rolfe,


    Can I assume you appreciated the info that I emailed you? How about a little credit if you're going to repost my stuff? ;-)

  • cary28cary28 Posts: 53
    I talked to both Sharon & Keith and they were willing to offer $4600 off MSRP, on top of the $1K factory rebate. It is an attractive deal, but they have limited color selection. My wife likes the Champagne color, while I am leaning toward the Patriot Blue or Silver. Who knows, they may even give me a decent trade-in for my wife's 98 Accord EX-V6.

    With the arrival of the EX trim, I wonder if Chrysler will adjust the MSRP of both the LXi and Limited, since these are our of line. And if so, when and to what extent?

    I hear that perhaps the supply for Odys may get closer to demand, so availability may improve, and may even affect selling price. However, there is no easy way to upgrade the Ody to come close to the luxury of the T&C, and I also see from Edmunds postings on problems for the Ody as well.

    I thought buying a Minivan would be easy, but this is getting to be a tought choice! Any wise insights???
  • I spent the last hour back at my dealer talking with their service reps. Here are the additional facts those of you with 2001 T&C AWDs may be interested in:

    - The dealer has 4 customers with these vans - all complaining. They have 2 which their staff use as demos and several more on the lot. All exhibit this noise.

    - We test drove my van, then test drove another off the lot - the noise is the same. Talked to the driver of the one demonstrator, he experiences the same noise.

    - Contrary to a previous comment I made, now that I have sampled more vans and talked to the person at the dealership who has driven every 2001 AWD they've received, the noise isn't much different from van to van.

    - They have not had any FWD customer come in with this complaint.

    - Temperature doesn't seem to matter.

    - This dealer was directed by Chrysler to completely drop, check, and re-align the exhaust system on one of the vans - no change. Another neighboring Minnesota dealer was directed to take the torque tube (drive shaft) to the rear axle off and see if the noise went away - no change. Attention is now focusing on the engine mounts.

    For those of you who read rolfe2's post above, he is 100% on target regarding the type of test drive a prospective buyer should take. The noise is evident in any gear (but not neutral) at 2100-2300 RPM but the load put on the engine at highway speeds with the torque lock-up engaged really gets it vibrating/resonating. My dealer tech called it a droning vibration... an apt description. You may have to drive several miles before the torque lock-up will engage. You should be at 60-65 mph at the 2100 - 2300 RPM range.

    I also agree with Rolfe2 that all other attributes of the van are great. If you choose to buy one, please be sure you do a very thorough test drive and can accept the noise. Speaking from experience, it is a very bad feeling to be surprised by this after taking delivery. My mistake was taking a long test drive on a snowy Minnesota day - of course you don't get much over 40-45MPH on snow covered roads and you keep a light foot on the gas.

    My dealer still does not have an official answer on what action (if any) Chrysler intends to take.
  • rolfe2rolfe2 Posts: 81
    pgs28 --
    Thanks for pointing out that you have FWD! I missed that. Interesting...

    I should add that I can also feel the vibration in the accelerator pedal -- but I have to be looking for it to notice it. It's no big deal, in my case.

    Here's the info you need to call DC that I found somewhere on the web. This is the number I called. (edited later: Have your VIN ready.)
    *****************

    Call 1-800-992-1997 (1-800-465-2001 from Canada)
    Listen to the automated operator then press 2. (To continue.)
    Hold for the next available agent. DO NOT ENTER A FOUR DIGIT EXTENSION! WAIT ON THE LINE AND MAKE NO SELECTIONS. The line will sound dead and you'll think you screwed up. You DIDN'T! WAIT!
    When Prompted press 1. (you are a customer.)
    When Prompted press 3. (customer service issues.)
    Press 3 Again. (customer service issues.)
  • rolfe2rolfe2 Posts: 81
    "Can I assume you appreciated the info that I emailed you? How about a little credit if you're going to repost my stuff? ;-) " - post 550.

    Sorry, Scanner, I don't recall an email from you. (I don't know how you'd know my email address.) So I'm not sure what I posted that I should credit you with, though I'd be happy to do so.

    Can you clarify? Thanks.

    --rolfe.
  • pgs28,
    Do you have the 3.8L engine ?

    Also, you will want the VIN when you call 1-800-992-1997 Customer Service.
  • I am glad you could get them to discount $5600. I was just there yesterday and didn't see a lot of Ltd in their lot but saw a lot of LXi. Yeah, my wife also liked the Champagne color but she said it would be too feminine for me. Since I will be driving it most of the time I picked the Patriot Blue. I was thinking about the Infen Red too but didn't want our minivan becomes a cop magnet. We didn't consider the silver because I like my car really shine after a car wash/ wax and light colored car can't give me that satisfaction. Yeah, I heard about the supply of the Odyssey will improve too but I am not sure the dealer will do much about the price. A lot of people here might not agree with me :-) but I still like the T & C better than Odyssey even with the safety issue that people constantly brought up. Then again, you have to weigh what's that you really want from your minivan. If safety is the biggest thing over anything else, I guess you either have to wait unit some organizations test the T&C or buy a Volve V70...sorry I really don't like the Odyssey :-)
  • I know that a bank called Fifth/Third has some pretty competitive rates. They offered me through the Chrysler dealer on a 39month lease 7.07%...but finance guy said they had a $650 bank fee which compared to my lease at Chevy Chase Bank (actually in Pennsylvania, not Maryland), which came to 8.20%, would have put my payments at $10 more a month...I don't know if he was pulling my leg on that up front bank fee...but I figured the payment was good enough. From what I understand, I am in the finance (bond) business, the rates will definitely decrease as they did already this week...We are all going to see lower rates steadily throughout the year...but the dropping of the residual hurts you worse as it drops than the interest rate dropping a little. I was quoted rates when I got ours anywhere from $508-$568/month...what a ripoff. That $2600 cash back should help too..when we did it, it was only $840 on a lease. Also, ask the dealer about dealer cash...they have a progressive cashback rebate for the dealer only that started at $300 and goes all the way up to $1,000...based on unit sales...if you tell the dealer you know about it, he may be willing to dip into it for you even a little to help you get a better price...TOMTOMTOM...I don't remember what I posted, but my friend didn't pay less than me for a Limited...he paid about $31,000...with all rebates...I cap costed mine around $29,000. I am not insulting any other make of minivan,,,but I am sooooooo glad I got the Chrysler...we also liked the instrumentation on the dash better than the Dodge...as for the 17" wheels...all that means is that when it comes time to replace them, we will spend more for the Dodge...besides, how sporty (or how can you call a minivan "Sporty"). The Chrysler just seemed to look classier..also, liked the grooves on the side moulding...You will love the way this van drives...what a joke compared to all the others!!! Forget about safety that we don't yet know..because it hasn't been tested yet. Yes, Hondas are reliable, but I am leasing the damn thing...I am only out of warranty for 3 months...also, you have roadside assistance 24/7 for 3 years or 36,000 miles...I may be wrong because I don't know what the other co's offer...but do they offer this on their vans??? And I don't know why Chrysler doesn't advertise this fact on commercials...I think it's a big advantage...or maybe some Oddysey owners will say based on their past reputation, the Chrysler owner will probably need it more than the Honda. Whatever!!!
  • pgs_28pgs_28 Posts: 34
    yes I have the 3.8L engine. The 3.5 isn't available in Canada yet. I'm glad to see that we might be getting some action on this problem. Please let's keep eachother posted on our progress. Thanks to all who have responded to this issue.
  • scannerscanner Posts: 295
    Look at all the motivation. ;-)
  • scannerscanner Posts: 295
    My messages keep disappearing.

    Is there something wrong with Edmunds or is someone trying to tell me something?
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Your email bounced....

    Steve
    Host
    SUV and Vans Message Boards
  • scannerscanner Posts: 295
    Just got the email.

    That was a real address, not cloaked profanity.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    It wasn't when I checked it. Please reply via email if you want to discuss. Thanks!

    Steve
    Host
    SUV and Vans Message Boards
  • scannerscanner Posts: 295
    Are the last 4 letters of your email address "mann"?
  • egrandegrand Posts: 14
    away with you...hotspur...away...to honda...away.....away...
  • The message from mnoutdoors (#552) is the first one that I think gives a truly promising clue to *the noise*. Inadequate, or mistuned, engine mounts would be consistent with every noise report I've seen so far. In particular, the idea that the noise occurs when the engine is strongly torqued is an important symptom. It is easy to imagine that this year's increase in torque for the 3.8L engine was not matched by a properly coordinated redesign of the engine mounts.

    The engine-mount hypothesis says that it is the 3.8L engine and not AWD that is the noise-critical factor. That suggests that a 3.8L non-AWD vehicle would exhibit the noise. I don't recall--were there any reports to that effect?
  • Regarding the 2001 3.8L engine mounts and whether there should be noise in the FWD or not,
    the response from pgs_28 in (558 & 549) would indicate there is at least one FWD that has a vibration like this.

    I asked the test driver/technician at our dealer what else is different between the AWD and FWD engine mounting. He honestly answered that he didn't know, but speculated that the yolk could be different based on the way the drive shaft exits to the rear - could be other things as well - he really didn't know.

    It would be interesting to put an AWD and FWD up on lifts side by side and compare. Better yet, if the parts depts have blow ups, comparison of the part numbers for each in the engine mounting area could tell whats different as well.

    All I can tell you is that the test driver/tech was adamant that he hadn't had any FWD instances of this to date. That's just one dealer's experience however.

    As someone else pointed out as well, if the van is going to make this noise, it's there from day one, and it's always present. There is nothing intermittent about this. So if you test drive a van that's nice and quiet, it would seem that it doesn't fall into this set of noisy cars.
  • I've read every single post but couldn't find any comments on the 2001 Chrysler Voyager. The engine would be a 2.4L 4-cylinder engine. Any comments about low frequency noise? Any comments on performaance of the engine?

    I am interested in it because I could get a new minivan for under $20,000. Any suggestions?
  • I went to a Chrysler dealer in Richmond Indiana in October to test drive a 2001 LXI with idea of trading in my 1996 LXI, upon the test at 2200 rpm, I heard this LOUD droning noise, I took the van back to dealer, told salesman my findings, he suggested that I drive the other LXI on the lot, I drove it the very same route & got the same LOUD droning noise, in the meantime he was appraising my 1996 LXI for trade-in, I returned to the dealership, went straight to the Honda dealership, ordered an Odyssey, received the same amount as a trade for my 1996. Of course, I am not sure of the cause of the noise problem, but, it could be the design of the new alloy wheels on the 2001 Chrysler as this is the first year for them, too!!
  • pgs_28pgs_28 Posts: 34
    Hi again
    Interesting comment about the engine mounts. I definitely have an FWD and it is definitely there. I noticed it when I picked up the van and had in twice to see if it could be remedied. I came to the Edmund's site when I was searching the net looking for anyone who might have had the same problem. I couldn't believe it when I read that some people had. There is nothing worse than having a problem isolated only to your vehicle and everyone at a dealership telling you things like "it's normal" or "I don't feel it".
    I think the guy above was a tad premature running to his Honda dealership. The T&C is still a great vehicle and I'm confident, with the help of this forum, that this problem will be resolved.
    I agree that the new torque may be the potential cause of the problem. When one thinks of it, there are very few places the drive train contacts the body. Certainly one is the engine mounts, the 2nd is the exhaust brackets and the third... maybe... might be some kind of transmission mount. I presume the vibration that we are feeling could find it's way to the body via one of those roots. Of course I don't think the vibration on the gas pedal is not going to be effected by this. The gas pedal is picking up the 'torque' vibration and transferring it via the accelerator cable. Even if one was to ensure that the right engine mounts absorbed the vibrations from the drive train, that would only stop the vibration to the body but not to the gas pedal. Therefore I suspect that it is the increased torque that is playing havoc with the whole system. A problem I don't think is easily resolved. The best one can do is minimize the vibration transference to the body and then figure out a way to do the same with the gas pedal. Some kind of rubber coupling might alleviate this.
    I am not an engineer. I worked in a gas station through university but that doesn't qualify me to diagnose anything. Just some logical thoughts off the top of my head. I would appreciate anyone else's comments as to whether this is a reasonable hypothesis.

    thx
  • pgs_28pgs_28 Posts: 34
    One other comment.... on one occassion that I had my T&C in for service on this, I received a 2001 GC Sport as a loaner. It was FWD and it showed the identical symptoms as mine but magnified. I'm don't think that the Sport has the 3.8L engine.. I think it is a 3.3. So this might blow our theory out of the water. Is this true? If yes did they change the 3.3L engine?

    thx
  • rolfe2rolfe2 Posts: 81
    The report from pgs_28 that he has the 2100 rpm noise in his FWD has gotten me thinking (usually dangerous!). What seems to be the case is that the complaints TEND to come mainly from AWD owners, but at least some FWD owners also complain. Furthermore, the test drive I did of the FWD showed no noise, and the test drive of the AWD showed noise.

    So what other variable (other than FWD vs AWD) might it be? I know this is a stretch, but could it be something like heavy duty suspension as the common denominator? Or the load leveling and height control suspension included with trailer tow group?

    After all, HD suspension is STANDARD on the ES AWD and OPTIONAL on the FWD.

    (Don't ask me how the suspension could affect noise, I'm just looking at it statistically for the moment.)

    pgs_28 -- do you happen to have a HD suspension on your FWD? What about trailer tow group?

    --rolfe.
  • pgs_28pgs_28 Posts: 34
    Rolfe

    I have the towing package... I have everything available except AWD.

    I'm not sure that we can say with certainty that FWD drivers don't have it. I've only driven two FWD but both had it in varying degrees. Of course one was the T&C and the other the Sport.
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