A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

There will be a big shakeout of repair shops and technicians, and after that shake out, those left standing will raise their rates considerably,

This has already happened. Shops are vanishing and only the VERY strong and VERY smart are staying in business.

Mr_Shiftright

I have a network of really good indie shops that I do business with (or we just help each other out) and even one dealership. These shops charge from $110 to $160 an hour, and they are often booked weeks in advance. Two of them have even expanded as of last year. One expansion was strictly for engine-building (Porsche, mostly).

thecardoc3

I just visited an area where most of the shop owners believe that they can't charge more than $70/hour. Some are as low as $45. Good people, good techs but by pricing too low have issues they cannot afford to overcome. Consumer price pressure has left them convinced that they cannot change their pricing so they are failing. Meanwhile, their techs careers aren't advancing with the technology and even if new blood did come in to the trade, the wage scale is effectively being set by those who aren't trying to improve themselves and their positions.

Mr_Shiftright

I would agree 100% with that

fushigi

thecardoc3 said:

You are starting to get the message, but you still haven't grasped one key detail. The length of time that it takes to master the career. From the time someone graduates from school until he/she has enough hours on the floor to be truly competent is more than a decade. Meanwhile during that decade of trying to get up to speed there will be another decade worth of advancements in the technology that the technician then has to work with. So that means the learning never stops, there is no educational finish line for the technicians. Trying to import warm bodies isn't going to change that, even if they would work for pennies.

This morning I was listening to Mike and Mike on ESPN ...

Perhaps a better analogy would be the IT industry. Most areas within IT are constantly evolving as new technologies are developed & become commonplace. In my profession, IT Security, we have to know how to handle both traditional and emerging threats. Know how to mitigate on not only cutting edge hardware & software but on the old stuff that vendors no longer support but companies rely on to run their manufacturing. Manage the ever-evolving risk & compliance landscape. Deal with corporate management that doesn't understand what we do. Continual self-education is key to keeping current.

The key difference, though, would be jobs & compensation. Nationally, IT Security has negative unemployment (more jobs than people to fill them) and it does pay pretty good once you've got a few years of experience. It can certainly be stressful (I've effectively been on call 24x7 since 1988) but I do enjoy it.

Mr_Shiftright

How would you like my friend's job? He's on call to repair Air Traffic Control radar at San Francisco airport. No "oops, I'm sorry" is allowed.

fushigi

As a rule, I limit my job stress to technology; I don't take jobs in healthcare or where lives depend on what I do. I'm good at my job & confident in my skills, but why take on stress unnecessarily? Often times those employers don't compensate high enough to make it worthwhile. Especially if the government is footing the bill.

stever

I remember an acquaintance talking about getting read "the riot act" every year or two by a lawyer his company would hire to talk to the A&P mechanics. The techs would get reminded annually that people's lives depended on them doing their job correctly and that messing up or taking shortcuts could result in lawsuits wiping out the company (and their job/career).

Wonder if that happens at the dealership or the franchises?

Of course, A&P mechanics are certified and have to have experience and pass tests before getting the certification. Otherwise you can work on "aviation related work" only under supervision of an A&P, and even then, there are a lot of parts you can't touch.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

How would you like my friend's job? He's on call to repair Air Traffic Control radar at San Francisco airport. No "oops, I'm sorry" is allowed.

My nephew did similar work to that in the Navy. Part of his responsibility was working with the ship to ship radar communication so that all of them put together created an umbrella over the entire fleet. After leaving the Navy he went to work for a company that repairs medical equipment. (X-ray machines, C-Scan, etc)

The difference between what he does and what the top automotive techs do is the company that he works for gets more than a thousand dollars an hour to guess which parts to try in a modular repair fashion. That's a lot like what Steve keeps lobbying for except and ours has no tolerance for anything even remotely appearing to work that way at a fraction of that price.

The real difference between our jobs? I could do his job starting next week. He couldn't fix a car if he had to and is amazed at how complicated some of the things that go wrong with them can be.

Mr_Shiftright

Well we wouldn't want airport radar to be designed like an automobile...that would result in absolute carnage.

stever

"The upcoming all-new F-Series pickup will be easier and less costly to repair, thanks to the modular design of its aluminum-intensive body-in-white, Ford tells dealers here." (Ward's Auto)

From 2012 - "Volkswagen Group has announced the introduction of a new vehicle architecture that optimizes standardization and use of technologies, extending from compact cars to large SUVs and sedans." (carbodydesign.com)

Modular Design for Technology Devices (huffpo)

The idea isn't new at all. I think it's inevitable that swapping assemblies will be SOP for car "repair" in the future. We're already there with parts swapping.

Mr_Shiftright

I think both HVAC and Driver Assist packages are just about ripe for modular repair, right now.

roadburner

This is stunningly moronic- even for an "Instant Oil Change" shop:
Audi S4 Carnage

thecardoc3

stever said:

"The upcoming all-new F-Series pickup will be easier and less costly to repair, thanks to the modular design of its aluminum-intensive body-in-white, Ford tells dealers here." (Ward's Auto)

That's what they said back in 2014. How's that worked out for them now that the trucks are here?

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-ford-f150-repair-cost-20150729-story.html

thecardoc3

stever said:

Modular Design for Technology Devices (huffpo)

BTW maybe you haven't seen this.
http://www.redbubble.com/people/icool/works/16649132-99-little-bugs-in-the-code?body_color=black&country_code=US&p=t-shirt&print_location=front&size=medium&style=mens&utm_campaign=shopping&utm_medium=google_products&utm_source=google&gclid=CjwKEAiA18mzBRCo1e_-y_KLpXISJACEsANG6d4_YM9iUYcNab5R9Dd54-jzSgjE1n5G163_vrtu4xoCEePw_wcB

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, gee, what a stunning revelation. Aluminum body panels take longer to repair than steel ones. Who would have guessed?

stever

Y'all are still not getting it. R&R is last century.

Get a ding? Replace the front clip, get back to your life in a couple of hours.

How affordable and efficient is it to have a body shop tie up your car for ten days while they beat out metal by hand and then repaint it? You wind up with stressed metal that doesn't have the same molecular structure or strength it had when it was formed, so you lose a bit of structural integrity and safety.

Mr_Shiftright

That would be great if you didn't mind your car or truck looking like it had been designed by the Red Army.

thecardoc3

roadburner said:

This is stunningly moronic- even for an "Instant Oil Change" shop:
Audi S4 Carnage

The sad part, the really sad part is that this will in no way have any impact on the quick lubes ability to take market share away from qualified technicians who would have made an easy job of servicing the car correctly, with the right products without damaging anything. In fact its far more likely that suspicion and blame for this incident will find its way onto people who don't deserve any of it than it is to stick solely to the ones who genuinely earned it.

stever

>designed by the Red Army

Is this really much different from a Vette? As far as that goes, is it really much different from a Camry? Car design is still pretty much stuck in the "four wheels and a running board" stage.

Mr_Shiftright

You also have the wonder what the hell the owner was thinking, taking an S4 to a quik-lube shop.

thecardoc3 said:

roadburner said:

This is stunningly moronic- even for an "Instant Oil Change" shop:
Audi S4 Carnage

The sad part, the really sad part is that this will in no way have any impact on the quick lubes ability to take market share away from qualified technicians who would have made an easy job of servicing the car correctly, with the right products without damaging anything. In fact its far more likely that suspicion and blame for this incident will find its way onto people who don't deserve any of it than it is to stick solely to the ones who genuinely earned it.

thecardoc3

Mr_Shiftright said:

You also have the wonder what the hell the owner of an S4 was thinking, taking a car like that to a quick-lube shop.

Fixed it for you.

Mr_Shiftright

No, can't let you do that. Those are my words and I own them...but I get your point of course...some people think NO car should be brought to a quick-lube shop.

roadburner

I'd change the oil in my driveway at a 15F ambient temp before I'd go to a kwicky-lube joint- even the Jeep...

imidazol97

roadburner said:

I'd change the oil in my driveway at a 15F ambient temp before I'd go to a kwicky-lube joint- even the Jeep...

Been there. Done that.

roadburner

imidazol97 said:

<
Been there. Done that.

I replaced a blown dash speaker in the Wrangler at 20F. That was fun.

thecardoc3

I've done all kinds of repairs when it was as cold as -20f, but I did them inside a heated building.

qbrozen

i had an experience at a quick lube shop ONCE and it was not a complicated vehicle, nor a tall ask. It was a '98 Subaru Forester. I explained to them when I checked in that it takes 4.5 qts. Please don't overfill. They acknowledged. I saw the kid working on it and told him it takes 4.5 qts. Please don't overfill. So what happened? They overfilled. I drained a half qt when I got home.

PF_Flyer

stever said:

Y'all are still not getting it. R&R is last century.

I get the concept and I'm with you, I think it should be possible. I also get the law of unintended consequences. If the new front clip can be "snapped on", some bean counter somewhere is going to think it would be more cost-effective if the clips were sort of universal mount. Why then you could clip any front end on any car depending on what you feel like that week

stever

Good example since an experienced mechanic could swap out the engine on a Bug in under a minute.

stever

Got an oil leak on a popular new car/truck? Figure a week to fix it, especially if one of the two trained techs is out.

PF_Flyer

I just keep setting 'em up...

thecardoc3

stever said:

Good example since an experienced mechanic could swap out the engine on a Bug in under a minute.

Ahhh, bit of a misquote there? Under an hour, absolutely. Under a half an hour meant that someone was there before you and they left some of the bolts out, and you did too.

thecardoc3

stever said:

Got an oil leak on a popular new car/truck? Figure a week to fix it, especially if one of the two trained techs is out.

So, do you really think that this article and/or the comments about it is going to generate a positive change for the consumer? Or said another way, is it going to help make the situation better, or simply contribute to things getting worse even quicker?

So they only have two techs certified to do this work on the trucks. It's very likely those two techs are also the same two who do all of the work on any of the more advanced systems. It would serve people right if they find the article and many of the blind assertions made in the responses offensive enough that they both called it a career and walked out in the search of better things for themselves.

BTW the best part of this article is what it does for the perception about whether the shortage of qualified techs is real or not.

stever

thecardoc3 said:

stever said:

Good example since an experienced mechanic could swap out the engine on a Bug in under a minute.

Ahhh, bit of a misquote there? Under an hour, absolutely. Under a half an hour meant that someone was there before you and they left some of the bolts out, and you did too.

Yep, totally messed that one up.

The world record is one minute and six seconds by some guys in Australia. The rest of y'all are just slackers.

Fastest VW Beetle engine swap (guinnessworldrecords.com)

thecardoc3

There is a difference between what they were doing, https://www.vwheritage.com/blog/2014/10/21/engine-change-times/ and what a real R&R for a repair entails.

I'm pretty sure most would not approve of someone simply dropping their engine onto the floor from any height. Then there are the modified wiring harness plug, fuel line, heater controls and tubes, etc.

stever

But it does illustrate how it could work. Forget R&R and go P&P (plug and play).

thecardoc3

So the alternator goes bad and it costs $4000 to fix it because its only serviced as part of the assembly.
Then a starter goes bad and it's the same result.
Get an oil leak? Same.
Misfire? Thermostat start sticking? Just imagine. No one to fix it, just plug and play the whole modular assembly.

stever

Yep, and it's fixed right the first time and fast. No down time. No making three trips to the dealer trying to accurately diagnose the flaky alternator. The "core" is sent back for refurb and reuse. The economies of scale will crank the price down if you are out of warranty. The way shopping is going though, by the time it happens, it'll makes more sense just to lease. We're just about at 30% there now and that number is growing.

Millennials More Likely to Lease Vehicles than Older Americans, Reports Edmunds.com

Mr_Shiftright

All you'll do by intensive modular repair as you suggest is triple the cost of auto repair. Why do you think auto repair is already so expensive? Even if you are a well-trained technician, by the time you get to the bottom of the diagnostic tree suggested by your technical manuals or online database, and after you've done all the testing, and you've found the problem---it always says "replace the part". We are already "modular" in many ways.

No one goes in an solders up HVAC control modules for instance. They replace them, and on some cars that's a $1000 whack in the head.

What I hear you saying is that we will make all this affordable by decreasing the labor time. Yes, but increasing the parts costs a great deal. So, owner gets screwed, technician gets screwed, parts suppliers and dealers make the profit. And the level of waste is enormous.

The only way your plan would work for the car owner, as I see it, is that all the "modular repairs" must be done under warranty. As soon as you are out of warranty, modular repair will turn on you. You will have to throw your car away, like you do with an old water heater.

stever

I think there could be less waste. Less labor would be needed at the consumer level and the module would be returned to central casting for a make-over. You'd be paying a fee for a module swap, not a repair.

And at the central location, it could even be feasible and cost effective to refloat the solder on the bad computer boards.

Mr_Shiftright

Sure, like the "refurb" computers and iPads you see on Amazon. But those still aren't cheap.

It's really of no benefit to the car owner if his modular transmission can be swapped out in 1/2 hour when perhaps all he needed was a cleaned up valve body in the first place.

Be careful what you wish for, is my advice.

stever

Well, the refurbs are complete units. You buy one of my cars new, you agree to take a refurb module if one of your systems breaks. Same warranty or license agreement arrangement covers it but your front clip may be older that the original car you bought, yet certified to meet or beat current standards/requirements.

(We do have two refurbed iPads here. )

isellhondas

stever said:

Good example since an experienced mechanic could swap out the engine on a Bug in under a minute.

When I managed a large shop I had a guy who worked for me tell me he could take a VW bug out of it's stall in our parking lot, pull it on his rack, pull the engine and replace the clutch in less than a half hour including reparkling the car in the lot. I bet him lunch he couldn't do this.

I bought him lunch that day.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes but in the end it was still a VW bug. Nonetheless, VW did revive the "home mechanic" legacy that started with the Model T.

Ah, Steve, so now you've moved up to the "modular car", but literally? I've always been a fan of the recycled car idea--you drive it under warranty, then turn it in to the factory at a set date for another one.

stever

Avoidance of repair bills is one reason why leasing keeps growing eh? It's not cheap, but your costs are mostly fixed.

Mr_Shiftright

Sure. Look, the handwriting is on the wall. Pretty soon, keeping a modern car after warranty expires is going to be a deadly game of russian roulette. One of those 6 chambers in your check engine light is going to have a $10,000 bullet in it, aimed at your wallet.

isellhondas

Yes, this is EXACTLY why leasing has grown in popularity so much.

Still, those off lease cars have to end up somewhere!

stever

Used car leasing is way up too.

Mr_Shiftright

Unless you're a duct tape and string kind o' guy who doesn't mind cracked windshields, spongy brakes, dead suspension, a holed muffler, and those little orange flecks on your clothes from your torn upholstery, chances are you'd be spending at lease half a lease payment per month just to keep a high miles car in tip-top shape.