The Current State of the US Auto Market

busiris

I agree. However, in my earlier years, there were families that were glued to a manufacturer.. Regardless of reliability or experience (not that it was a good thing, by any means).

I knew countless families that always drove a "X" brand, and most kids (well, at least the males) I grew up with could easily identify most makes and models. While I experienced some difficulty in discerning makes and models sold well before I was born (1954), I could still easily tell the differences in cars still on the roads in any numbers, and easily identify them.

I still see the occasional advertisement implying there is that family brand loyalty out there, but I don't see it in my everyday life like I once did.

I think the Corolla's success over the years sums it up... Utility and function (both real and imagined) seem to be paying an increasingly larger part in car buying decisions for younger people today.

andre1969

I think the Corolla's success over the years sums it up... Utility and function (both real and imagined) seem to be paying an increasingly larger part in car buying decisions for younger people today.

I know a guy, mainly from the old car rounds, who used to be a dyed in the wool Mopar or Nocar type of guy. First ran into him way back in 1990. I had only had my '57 DeSoto maybe a few days, or few weeks at the most. Well, I drove my grandmother to the grocery store in it one Saturday, and when we got back, as I was putting it in the garage, a pale blue '63 Plymouth drove by and slowed down, backed up, and pulled into the driveway.

We struck up a pleasant conversation at first, talking about old cars and stuff, but before too long he was ragging on Japanese cars and their drivers, and using words that if I repeated here, would probably get me banned from Edmund's.

Dude was so strung out on Mopar that he actually got mad at me when I ran into him at a car show, where I had the DeSoto, but mentioned that I had just bought a '67 Catalina!

Well, I went through a span of nearly ten years I guess before I ran into him again at a car show. Started talking cars, and asked him if he had any old Mopars and he said no. He and his family got tired of the things breaking down, so by that point they were all driving Toyotas!

As for me, I actually try to keep an open mind, even though I've never owned anything other than a Mopar or GM product. I'm open to other products, even though in the past it's always been one of those two I ended up with.

busiris

Dude was so strung out on Mopar that he actually got mad at me when I ran into him at a car show, where I had the DeSoto, but mentioned that I had just bought a '67 Catalina!

Yep, that's the kind of behavior I remember...

I just don't see much of that any more. Probably lots of reasons why...

andre1969

Yep, that's the kind of behavior I remember...

I just don't see much of that any more. Probably lots of reasons why...

I wonder if people are quicker to forgive nowadays, too?

When I was younger, whenever I'd go looking at cars, I was always warned to stay away from a particular Pontiac dealership on Route 301 south in Bowie, MD. I never knew the exact details, except that Grandmom and Granddad bought a new 1949 Pontiac from them, and something went awry. Any time the name of that dealer came up, Grandmom would get mad.

Even in 1997, my uncle found a Silverado he liked, but he wouldn't buy it there, because of Grandmom. Well, that Pontiac dealer is, obviously, gone now. I think it's a Honda dealer, but not sure...it's something furrin' I know that much. A few months ago I asked my uncle what, exactly, happened that Grandmom hated that dealer. It actually happened before he was even born, so he didn't know first hand, but he thinks that all that happened was that Granddad went in there unprepared, bought a Pontiac that was a demonstrator, and Grandmom thought they took advantage of him.

Now, that didn't keep them away from GM, as they went on to buy plenty of other GM products over the years. And that Pontiac must not have been too bad, as they kept it until 1955, when they traded it for a used '52 Buick, at another dealer. But still, that's a long time to hold a grudge! But, Grandmom can be a bit irrational at times. :shades:

uplanderguy

Since 2004, Ford has sold 1,020,123 Mustangs worldwide. Chevrolet sold 345,026. Of course, during much that time, the Camaro was on ice, not being produced.

Wow! What a rational comparison!

Guess what? The Impala has outsold the Galaxie 500 too. ;

circlew

Wow! Sour grapes doesn't even begin to explain it! Shocker! :shades:

Did Ford make GM stop making the Camaro? Or was it the dreaded UAW? :P

It all started in 1964, when the Mustang, a brainchild of Ford general manager Lee Iacocca, scored a record-breaking 418,812 first-year sales and caught Chevrolet decidedly off guard. Chevy had primarily counted on its Corvair and Nova to hold the line against the newcomer, but they were no match for the Mustang's sex appeal and V-8 performance.

In 2002, the Camaro and its venerable twin, the Pontiac Firebird, left the field. Declining sales had convinced GM executives that Americans no longer wanted coupes. But just as in 1964, the Mustang threw egg in their faces. The redesigned 2005 model racked up 160,412 sales, spurring Chevrolet back into action.

uplanderguy

It's not sour grapes, but the leaving out/ignoring of totally relevant information is so absolutely comical to me. It always has been, though. It's sort of like expecting somebody at MSNBC to have a complete assessment of Ronald Reagan or something.

imidazol97

> It's sort of like expecting somebody at MSNBC to have a complete assessment

MSNBC's president admitted they are not a news channel anymore. They are a party arm.

I wouldn't trust them on any car opinion they give either.

circlew

Did I leave out that GM canceled the Camaro? Wasn't that fact included in the article in the post? You didn't already know that? Think none knows that the Camaro was cancelled? GM defaulted. :shades:

So, at the end of the day, the Mustang won out by a dumb management decision by GM, right? Bottom line is the Mustang sold more. Period. :P

uplanderguy

IMHO, the only valid comparison that means absolutely anything now, is how the sales numbers stack up from when the current Camaro was introduced, to now. After all, the current car is generally the same car as introduced in late '09.

I don't know which is higher for the current-gen cars, but I do know the Camaro has not been the sales failure some (ahem) here commented almost immediately out of the box.

uplanderguy

Shut down GMs Colorado plant in the USA also.....electronics came from Japan.

OK, but surely you must admit that shutting down the plant where the oldest, lowest-volume GM vehicle still being made, or black Ford pickups not being offered, does not equate with the entire line shutdowns Japanese manufacturers endured. And that from companies who many here like to claim are more American than the D3, although the D3 did not endure anywhere remotely near the shutdowns experienced by the Japanese companies.

uplanderguy

Looked at cars at the nearest Chevy dealer today--not where I buy and deal. They still have the silver 4-cyl. Impala, sticker price $27,535, they've had for a couple months. It hasn't moved from its spot, it looks like. I'm stunned, as I think even the most jaded here would take a walk around and say that it's a lot of car for that money. I guess GM was right; most buyers would want the six. They have only one other Impala, another four, but an LT, which stickers at $29K.

A couple weeks ago, maybe less, they had a pearlescent white LT V6 for $34K, which is gone now.

The silver one for $27,535 now has the dealer's sticker in the windshield saying "Our best price $27,535", so apparently they're not sweating yet.

BTW, saw some '14 Cruzes already. Really like the deep metallic dark green color, new this year, almost a dupe of my '02 Cavalier dark green which I liked a lot.

circlew

It wasn't a sales failure but the Camaro was a LAUNCH failure. (So was the '13 Bu.)

OK, so by your rules, the Camaro comes out ahead since '09 but Mustang is ahead ytd 2012.

The FACT remains Mustang is the ALL-Time Winner.

uplanderguy

A launch failure means the car sold poorly. Remember, you implied that even the highest-performance Camaro needed rebates a year or two ago. Not the case even remotely with the Camaro. The Malibu, yes.

circlew

So horrible quality during launch is not a launch failure?

Edmunds Auto Observer - July 17,2009

One of the bright spots in a bleak inventory of sales numbers for the new General Motors Co. has been the 2010 Camaro. GM executives in recent weeks have pointed to the new-age Camaro as the example of how GM can connect expressive cars with customers willing to pay full price.

Luckily for GM, the car has a receptive audience -- after just three months on the market, the Camaro made a major statement by outselling the Ford Mustang in June -- because the Camaro's launch has been anything but smooth, largely due to quality-control issues.

After fits and starts, the Camaro rollout hit another pothole this week when GM confirmed to Camaro-enthusiast website Camaro5.com that the company is suspending shipments of Camaro SSs (V8-engined) with manual transmissions while engineers investigate reports of failed output shafts.

It isn't yet known if GM will recall manual-transmission Camaro SSs already sold, but one insider tells AutoObserver it is unlikely given the low numbers involved. Through June, Chevrolet sold a total of 15,397 Camaros, but manual-transmission SS models represent a markedly smaller population.

In January, GM delayed Camaro production for one month, pushing back the start of production at its Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, assembly site from February 16 to March 16 as engineers grappled with quality-control and supplier issues.

From there, the Camaro has endured a litany of confirmed and anecdotal quality problems perhaps most entertainingly characterized by an unintentionally humorous list posted at Camaro5.com to help potential new owners scour their Camaro for quality issues reported by other buyers.

The lengthy -- and sometimes hilarious -- checklist includes such worrying entries as loose oil-pan bolts and oil-cooler leaks; "mismatched paint on parts of the vehicle;" hoods that won't unlatch, intermittent air-conditioning operation; loose emblems and interior trim pieces and misaligned and poorly fitting body panels.

Hilarious and comical indeed!

andre1969

I wonder how quick a 4-cyl Impala would be from 0-60? I think my biggest concern would be that even if it felt fine with just the driver on board, load it up with a few passengers, and its performance would drop off fast.

My old 2000 Intrepid was like that. Seemed great with just me driving it. And even with one passenger, it didn't seem to slow it down. But with three or more on board, it seemed like performance dropped off quickly.

stever

Dan Neil has a WSJ review up of the '14 Impala:

2014 Chevrolet Impala Review: Go Ahead, Impersonate an Officer

"My Impala, a fully loaded 2LT with the big 6—putting out a respectable 83.3-hp per liter of displacement, naturally aspirated—was a spirited car, for sure, with 19-inch painted aluminum wheels and some suspiciously amazing tires to help it around corners. Accelerating onto the highway, the engine spools up joyfully and the six-speed automatic shuffles ratios firmly and discretely. Zero-to-60-mph pace is in the mid 7's but the car is stronger overall than that."

circlew

There is still no 2014 Impalas at my local Chevy dealer. :confuse:

berri

I believe you're in California. It's politically incorrect to own a D3 car there, just trucks. For cars; if you made it you buy European, if not, Asian. Detroit is for second vehicle pick-ups and 4X4's. Right? Sorry about that Kia buddy. Better keep it in the right lanes so the European models can pass you by - just kidding!

gmcustsvc

Hi circlew,

If you would like for us to locate a 2014 Impala for you we would be more than willing to do so. If you are interested we'll just need your VIN and we can start the search for you.

Amber N.
GM Customer Care

obyone

If you are interested we'll just need your VIN and we can start the search for you.

How does one get a VIN from something that doesn't exist?

circlew

No, I'm in central NJ about 10 miles in from where Sandy hit Belmar.

The dealer here is very shabby as it is old and obviously no investment for years. Used car dealers in my area make the Chevy dealer look like a chop shop. You don't even have a place to park and the salespeople almost pull you out of the car when you drive on the lot.

Looking at the numbers, the Asians still own autos so D3 "Keep On Truckin'"!

I wonder if that can ever change.

BTW, I tested the Cadenza and wanted to test the Impala so I can give a balanced comparison but looks like I'll have to "locate" one for the chance to drive such a rare bird!

Here are the top and bottom states that have Detroit 3 customers:

States most likely to buy from the Detroit 3

1. Michigan - 79.2%
2. North Dakota - 68.1%
3. South Dakota - 65.6%
4. Iowa - 63.2%
5. Wyoming - 62.6%
6. Montana - 61.1%
7. Nebraska - 59.7%
8. Oklahoma - 59%
9. Arkansas - 55.7%
10. Indiana - 54.5%

States least likely to buy from the Detroit 3

51. Hawaii - 19.4%
50. District of Columbia - 22.6%
49. California - 22.9%
47. (tie) Connecticut - 25.8%
47. (tie) Massachusetts - 25.8%
46. New Jersey - 26.7%
45. Rhode Island - 28.7%
44. Florida - 29.8%
43. Maryland - 30.3%
42. Washington - 30.6%

circlew

How does one get a VIN from something that doesn't exist?

I'm sure she just wants me to do the work and find the car I want so she can "help me" get it to the chop...dealer here in NJ.

I can always go back to Woodstock, VA where I saw my first Impala in May.

VIN: 1G1115SL7EU100580
Grubbs Chevrolet Inc
21902 Old Valley Pike
Woodstock, VA 22664

There! Search ended. Good old GM service still the same!

stever

Hard to believe Florida is in the bottom ten on that list - maybe because all the snowbirds register their Buicks in Michigan?

berri

Belmar, that's Monmouth County right? I've visited that area several times some years ago. As I recall, Belmar is where the fishing boats come in. Besides the ocean and beaches, what I remember was some good restaurants and lots of jug handles. I always wondered if there was a Red Bank bank with a Long Branch branch...

busiris

Of the states most likely to buy, I'd be interested to see the sales of trucks .vs. cars.

I'd bet 2-8, and possibly 9 & 10 as well buy far more full-size trucks than cars from Detroit.

obyone

HMMM last I heard there were 50 states in the Union. Has something changed that I'm not aware of or has Guam or Puerto Rico become the 51st state?

About that VIN, if what you say is true that they wanted you to find that VIN wouldn't it be safe to say that you located that particular vehicle on your own and why would you require their help unless of course they have an Edmund's coupon worth a 25% discount on top of the manufacturer's rebates. If that were the case I'd find a '14 vette.

stever

They were counting the poor slobs in DC who pay taxes but have no meaningful representation.

Mr_Shiftright

"They were counting the poor slobs in DC who pay taxes but have no meaningful representation"

Oh, you mean the 50 states~ :P

uplanderguy

The fact that these new-production glitches didn't affect sales isn't typically what 'lousy launch' means. Ask around.

'Lousy launch' means, to most people, historically, that the car sold poorly out-of-the-box. GM's 'lousy launches' that have been written about over the decades include the first Cavalier and Celebrity, and I'd include the current Malibu. The Camaro sold well immediately.

And hey, the ZL6 never needed a rebate.

By your description of a 'lousy launch', one would have to say that the latest Focus and Fusion were 'lousy launches'--serious recalls, plural, early on, reflected by poor quality scores in CR, for those who hang onto that. However, both sold well right away so I cannot call them a 'lousy launch'.

Although I had to dig deep in your article and avoid your summary which conveniently left this information out, the Fusion is in a similar pecentage-of-fleet sales as the Malibu and the Altima.

circlew

OK. In your world, the Camaro launch was a success. In my world, the Fusion and Focus were lousy launches as well as the Camaro.

That's why you never buy a D3 vehicle the first year it is launched. Ask around. :lemon:

Wow, you really did read the link I posted. Agree the Fusion and Altima were up there but you know who the Queen is. :shades:

circlew

About that VIN, if what you say is true that they wanted you to find that VIN wouldn't it be safe to say that you located that particular vehicle on your own and why would you require their help unless of course they have an Edmund's coupon worth a 25% discount on top of the manufacturer's rebates. If that were the case I'd find a '14 vette.

You are spot on. Why would I need their help at all? Let's hope Amber N. can answer that and shed light on the service GM Customer Care would provide by me providing the VIN.

I'd take that Corvette as well with the coupon! Here is the VIN:

1G1YS2DW6D5104582
Here is the window sticker: link title

Here is the dealer in Atlantic city (70 minute drive for me). Kerbeck Corvette, World's Largest & Best Corvette Dealer

Where is the coupon??

circlew

Here is Market Share (cars+LT's) for CARS YTD 2013:

D3 = 17.0%
Asians = 27.7%

Of course, these days it's hard to define just what makes a car "domestic." Many cars badged by American automakers are designed and built overseas, while plenty of "import" brand cars were largely developed and assembled in the U.S.

Market Share (cars+LT's) for Light Trucks YTD 2013:

D3 = 29.2%
Asians = 17.1%

Total MS YTD 2013:

D3 = 46.2%
Asians = 44.8%

circlew

John Wolkonowicz, an automotive historian based in Boston, told Bloomberg that Detroit’s auto makers are doing things unseen and unexpected for generations. They are gaining market share, winning quality awards, earning fat profits and delivering products that buyers want – buyers who until very recently never would have even considered buying a car from Detroit.

“These are probably some of the best products we’ve seen from American manufacturers since the early 1970s,” Wolkonowicz told Bloomberg. “Younger buyers are more prone to buy American and one reason is they want to be different than mom and dad, who fell in love with Japan Inc.”

Wolkonowicz is not alone.

“The Big Three look like they can go toe-to-toe with Toyota, Honda,” Eric Noble, president of industry consultant Car Lab, recently said on Bloomberg Television. “On the hybrid side, Ford is actually cutting in on Toyota.”

Here at the halfway point in 2013, the misery of 2009 – the bankruptcies, the uncertainties – seems almost ancient history. But let’s not get carried away. The story out of Detroit is impressive now and that’s good. The car business, however, is all about the long game, about performance over years and decades.

The best imports from Japan and Germany have proven they know how to play that game and win. Detroit hasn’t, at least not in my lifetime. But I’m young enough to wait and see if Detroit’s current surge is a mere blip or a sign of bigger things to come.

Will they forget history?

uplanderguy

Wow, you really did read the link I posted. Agree the Fusion and Altima were up there but you know who the Queen is

You apparently have some inside information, as your article mentioned that the Fusion, Altima, and Malibu all had similar fleet-sale percentages.

The gal from GM Customer Service is apparently used to asking for VIN number as I've seen in other forums, and obviously wouldn't need a VIN to tell you where the nearest Impala is. The Chevy website should be able to tell you that in thirty seconds.

gmcustsvc

Hi Uplanderguy,

I'm sure Amber just misspoke by asking for the VIN, when all we need is your zip code to locate all the 2014 Impalas located in a specific area that meet your search criteria.

As far as the coupon goes, I'm hoping they double my coupon to I can get what I really want..

Marlea Wilson
GM Customer Service

tlong

...on the fact that the dealer associations are sponsoring bills in a number of states to make auto sales of new vehicles by internet a crime :surprise: . This is clearly aimed at Tesla, one of the most innovative US companies in a long time.

Typical protectionism and NOT a good idea IMHO. Great idea to kill new meaningful competition and preserve the archaic ways of doing things.

Imagine if this had happened to books we wouldn't have Amazon today.

stever

Did you sign the petition? Didn't take long to hit the 100k minimum.

Now that Borders is gone and lots of independent booksellers are toast, book prices at Amazon have shot up (except for the blockbusters). (NY Times)

fho2008

Trying to kill another start up.......sounds like what happened with Tucker. But Tesla isn't for everyone, last time I looked you had to put down 100k for one.

If I had 100k for a car I'd look at Tesla. Hopefully the price has come down.

What is the former big 3 afraid of? They used to make pure electric cars, they have big factories....whats the problem?

busiris

..on the fact that the dealer associations are sponsoring bills in a number of states to make auto sales of new vehicles by internet a crime

Hmmm... When workers band together to prohibit companies from using alternative labor sources, we call it a union.

When dealer associations band together to prohibit alternative sales channels we call it a cartel.

In both cases, it doesn't take much to disenfranchise the product end-user, ie., the consumer.

I wonder who stands up to support one, but not the other?

uplanderguy

There is still no 2014 Impalas at my local Chevy dealer.

There is simply no way your dealer hasn't gotten one yet...they've apparently sold them quickly.

imidazol97

The local store had gotten in a 4-cylinder, I was told, a week and half ago. It was sold the same day. These are selling like hotcakes, apple pie, and Chevrolet, as Dinah Shore would have said.

circlew

You apparently have some inside information, as your article mentioned that the Fusion, Altima, and Malibu all had similar fleet-sale percentages.

Correct! :shades:

Malibu 39% sales from fleet :lemon:
Fusion 34% sales from fleet
Altima 33% sales from fleet

uplanderguy

I think the average, reasoned person would hardly conclude that Ford and Nissan are doing a much-more-commendable job by having only 33% and 34% of Fusion and Altima sales to fleet, as opposed to 39% for the Malibu.

Obviously, there's a problem at all three.

berri

I am seeing more new Altima's in the rental fleets. Not a bad looking car to me. But really, Altima, Fusion, Sonata - they are all starting to look a lot like each other in the roof line. Like them or not, I think you have to give credit to Malibu for not joining the angular 6 window profile mass movement.

busiris

But really, Altima, Fusion, Sonata - they are all starting to look a lot like each other in the roof line.

I've stated this before: it seems its getting more and more challenging for manufacturers to have significant differentiation in their products. In a large way, more and more, cars are looking like each other.

berri

Now as the quality and components also keep getting closer, I've got to wonder if there won't be a shake out of manufacturers before this decade is over? That leads to the next question, if it happens will it be more consolidations like the airline industry is undergoing right now or BK's?

ohenryx

I have had an Altima, a Camry, and an Impala as rental cars. Not a Malibu (yet). They are all decent, basic transportation. If I were going to own a sedan, I would probably lean more towards a Passat. Although the lease deal on the Volvo S60 does look tempting...

circlew

I think the average, reasoned person would hardly conclude that Ford and Nissan are doing a much-more-commendable job by having only 33% and 34% of Fusion and Altima sales to fleet, as opposed to 39% for the Malibu.

But ANY person with the least modicum of thought would conclude GM is doing the WORST job of the 3.

circlew

Like them or not, I think you have to give credit to Malibu for not joining the angular 6 window profile mass movement.

Yep, the fleet customers need some differentiation from the last Malibu and Impala.