Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Honda CR-V Maintenance and Repair

15556586061227

Comments

  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,992
    "Honda did not change manufacturing or repair procedures for the '03 and '04 models and is looking into whether there were flaws with the filters or how they were installed. The fires have occurred only after original filters were first replaced."

    Which suggests that theories like the one presented by CR's analyst are without merit.

    No.. I think this supports CU exactly.. "They are looking into whether there were flaws with the filters or how they were installed". I see this applying to the original filter and installation as well.. Suppliers change all the time.... I don't think Honda could say that every single thing about the '02,03 and '04 is EXACTLY the same...

    Unless I'm wrong.....hmmmmm

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Suppliers change all the time.... I don't think Honda could say that every single thing about the '02,03 and '04 is EXACTLY the same...


    Absolutely, I agree.

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,992
    "With these cases Honda has proof that the majority of these fires are being caused by Tech error."

    I don't think they have proof.. it is still just their opinion.. If that is proof, then Sabrina's judgement against Honda would be proof that Honda is liable, and we all know that isn't so...

    Sorry for quoting.. I hate it when people do that to me... Wish I could learn to use italics.

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Even if that statement is true, what's causing the rest of the fires? Notice they didn't say ALL, just "majority".

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    The CR theory I was referring to was the idea that Honda changed the paint used to coat the engine blocks. If Honda did not change the manufacturing process (no new paint), this theory is bust.

    Theories about the filter, gasket, or installation are a separate issue. They do not belong exclusively to CR, either.

    The evidence they have found thus far points to two Tech errors (stacked and pinched gaskets). Is that iron-clad proof? No. Is it as close as we can get? Yes.

    If you do not accept the professional judgement of fire investigators, then there is no need for an investigation, now is there?

    Sabrina's judgement came before the investigation results were released to the public. By her account, the Honda reps at the trial were clueless. So I doubt the case was presented with those results. Perhaps she can clear that up?

    "Even if that statement is true, what's causing the rest of the fires?" - juice

    If you want to ignore the professional findings of the investigation, then I guess all this speculation about filter relocation, manifold shields, and other "solutions" are also bust. If you seriously believe that it's not the oil, why are you suggesting oil-related fixes?
  • for starters, adding England as a build location. Coincidentally, where most of the burned up CRV's were built, right?

    this could easily boil down to one operator on one manufacturing line forgetting to lube the oil filter on assembly, occasionally, and it sticking to the engine on removal. At which point most techs who do oil changes would remove the filter and not see the gasket, and go back up for it.

    Why not the element or accord? different assembly line.

    even if this was the problem, which Honda certainly should address and check, it's still the tech's fault for double gasketing, in my opinion.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Well, depends, if the oil filter was different for MY2003 maybe it's the combination of the two (later filter with that engine block coating).

    I keep saying 40+ but one source is now talking about 60 engine fires.

    A relocator kit moves the potentially spilled oil away from the hot spot.

    Here's one:

    http://store.modacar.com/products/Mazda/Miata/MODAOICO/

    -juice
  • yeah, that could be part of it also. But, then, I'd think the Element and other cars using the 2.4L and that filter would have some issues too.

    As for the post several pages ago (sorry, I haven't been here in a while) that Honda is not doing their duty by informing the public that their vehicle has a chance of catching fire, I'm not quite sure how to respond to that. There's a chance that lots of stuff could happen.

    What percentage of vehicles sold have to experience a problem before the company is negligent in not warning potential buyers? Do the 30 toyota engine fires represent a significantly better vehicle? What about the 1 Nissan fire? What were the percentages in each case? (numbers from memory, and probably wrong, but the point remains, I think)

    I'd be upset if my car caught fire too, trust me. I'm just trying to understand the cause.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Wait a minute. You just said that the investigators might have it wrong, that the problem has not been fully explained. Why recommend a relocator kit if you aren't certain it's an oil problem?
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Recent reports show that it has happened to an Element. Also a 2002 CR-V.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I didn't say the investigators are wrong.

    They were able to conclude the result of some of the fires, not all.

    The kit I propose would address the fire issue specifically because any failure whether its the filter or the tech or whatever would occur away from a hot spot.

    It would be effective REGARDLESS of what/who is to blame.

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,992
    Those are HONDA investigators... That is like asking the defense counsel to arrange for the DNA tests.. I'm not saying that makes them dishonest, but saying "we don't know" is kind of the easy way out..

    You can't blame it all on the techs.. CR-Vs are probably only 10% of what they work on.. Something is at least making the double or pinched gaskets more likely...

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Juice - I don't want to get into the semantics of it, but you questioned the judgement of the investigators when you wrote, "Even if that statement is true, what's causing the rest of the fires? Notice they didn't say ALL, just "majority"."

    If you truly believe that statement, then you must concede that solutions based on their findings are also questionable.

    You're saying that the results don't "prove" anything. Then using those same results to promote your theory.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

    Service Manager: "A customer's vehicle caught fire, today"

    Tech: "Yeah, the oil filter gasket was hard to remove, so I left it there."

    I don't see that line of thinking as a just reason to blame Honda. Just because a job is tougher for one vehicle does not excuse them from doing it right.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,992
    I'm sorry... but if it is happening more with CR-Vs than other models, then something else is wrong..

    Where I used to work, the overhead door had two yellow poles on each side... About once per week, someone would catch the one on the right as they were turning while exiting the door in an Econoline....

    The industrial engineers measured (a very large company), and came back with the findings that there was no good reason for that to keep happening and that it was "operator error".

    The point is.. If it keeps happening, maybe your standard of measurement is wrong.. Our manager paid the $800 to have it moved 10 inches out of petty cash... And, no one ever hit it again...

    If something keeps happening, there is a reason.. and blaming the techs doesn't explain why it happens more to CR-VS, and not Accords, or '02 CR-Vs..

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Now I'm really confused, what is my theory again? :o)

    I'll re-state it just to be clear - I think the root cause of the fires is a combination of several things, one or many of these:

    * substandard oil filters/gaskets
    * thin oil
    * location of oil filter (near hot spots)
    * rushed oil changes
    * something on the block causing stickiness where the gaskets meet

    It's not just one but several of these that results in fire.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    would go something like this:

    Service Manager: "A customer's vehicle caught fire, today"

    Tech: "I can't talk I have to finish 16 oil changes before lunch because that's the amount of time Honda has deemed is safe and fair for an oil change."

    Service Manager: "Sit down, this is important. Don't you remember all the training techniques we taught you?"

    Tech: "No. Because you never trained me"

    Service Manager: "Oops. Remember to lie about that when the investigators come. Did you read the Bulletin at least?"

    Tech: "You never showed me that"

    Service Manager: "Lie about that too, OK?"

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    In your conversation, the dealer is still at fault. Only now you are blaming the Service Manager instead of the Service Tech.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I knew you'd say that, which is why I was already preparing a faux conversation with the Honda rep (HR) that the dealer service manager (DSM) reports to.

    First an earlier conversation:

    HR: TCO is the big new acronym, you gotta get that down for the CR-V. We suggest you allocate 8 minutes for oil changes.

    DSM: our certified techs earn too much.

    HR: hire trained monkeys. Actually, don't train them either, too costly.

    DSM: perfect, profits are up, TCO is down and sales are up. Can you cheapen the filter even more?

    HR: we found the cheapest filter on earth, look for new part numbers soon.

    <months later>

    DSM: oops, it hit the fan, our plan backfired.

    HR: sorry about that, Lee Iacocca infiltrated our assembly lines with some Super Glue. Something like that. The gaskets stick like leeches.

    DSM: CR-Vs are ablaze everywhere.

    HR: fire the monkey.

    <later still...>

    HR: did you get The Memo?

    DSM: what memo?

    HR: you didn't get The Memo? Everyone got The Memo.

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,992
    Well... I don't buy that conversation, either..

    Every manual labor job is required to be done as efficiently as possible... That is called productivity, and it is important to profit and loss.. To assume that everyone works in an unsafe manner or is not trained because of it, is just wrong... Safety is just good business, and most businesses put a premium on it.

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • "Recent reports show that it has happened to an Element. Also a 2002 CR-V. "

    interesting. on first oil changes, or subsequent, for the 2002 CR-V? A double gasket can happen to any car at any time, of course. I would be sure that you would find a double gasket fire on a civic too, if you looked hard enough.

    Are the elements catching fire at the same rate as the CR-V's? That might be an interesting data point. Also the Accords and TSX that share the engine, though I don't know whether they are laid out in the same way with respect to the oil filter and the exhaust in question.
  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    Yes, I tend to agree that "something" is making the CR-V more fire prone than other vehicles. Something is increasing the risk of a second problem (fire) after the first (Tech error).

    But if the Tech error can be corrected, you eliminate the possibility of a second problem. So why not start with the Tech?

    "The point is.. If it keeps happening, maybe your standard of measurement is wrong..."

    So why are people not allowing Honda to see if it keeps happening?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,992
    It could be that the "something" is making the tech error more likely, not the other way around.. For your scenario, he would be screwing up every oil change, but just the CR-Vs catch fire..

    I think its more likely that there is something that makes it more likely for the tech to make an error... I think the "something" is the cause in the cause/effect relationship..

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    The article was not specific about whether or not the 2002 CR-V fire was the very first oil-change. It was for the Element.

    I thin it's a bit premature to try determining the rate for fires for the Element. Right now, it's about 1% with only one vehicle on the record. That's slightly lower than the rate for the CR-V. But if one more Element has a fire, it will be almost twice the rate of the CR-V. Too small a sample.

    Both the CR-V and Element come as AWD vehicles. The addition of a transfer case and prop shaft can have a significant impact on where the exhaust systems are routed. They are also Mac strut designs, while the Accord is 2x bone. So the engine compartment is shaped differently.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,992
    No offense, but you could be a union rep... Lets forget about productivity.. Who cares if prices go up.. and we lose jobs, the government can just print money, right? And then, if the government can't pay their debts, they can just default on them.. And who cares if their oil changes cost $150 a pop?

    All jobs are required to be productive enough to turn a profit, or the job no longer exists.. But, safety still comes first.. I've been in plenty of auto service bays, and I don't see anyone killing themselves to make their goals.

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    "It could be that the "something" is making the tech error more likely"

    Sorry about the quoting.

    I agree. I think it is very likely that something makes the gasket more difficult to work with. (I do not claim to know exactly what that "something" is, or how to fix it.)

    However, that does not excuse the Tech from doing the job properly. (Hence my conversation post.)

    My corporate job involves training people. It is much easier for me to train people who are "smart". That does not excuse me from not training those who are "dumb". If I have to spend more time working with some people, I am paid to do that. If I have to develop extra teaching aids (visuals, group projects, etc.), then that is what I must do to accomplish the goal. If a student comes out of my program clueless and bewildered, it reflects poorly on me.

    The goal here is a proper oil change. If the Tech does not accomplish that, they are responsible for the results.

    Now, I would agree that Honda could probably do "something" to fix "whatever" is making the CR-V more challenging to work with. But they need to know what the difficulty is before they can address it. Nobody knows that, yet.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,992
    If I hit the post pulling out of the building, I am responsible for it... But, if the entity responsible for putting the post there does nothing about it, after it is hit 20 times more often than usual, then they are the ultimate cause of the problem.. or at least, future problems..

    Hey.. I'm getting paid right now!! Hope I'm productive.....LOL

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • varmintvarmint Posts: 6,326
    So how much time should Honda be given to study the impact of their notice?

    Honda dealers were contacted in mid-July. Honda and the NHTSA missed the deadline for the industry trade publication where the warning would be published for oil-change retailers. They will get the warning in the next publication (October).
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,992
    Hey.. I'm just answering philosophical/logic questions today...

    I can't answer your other question, because I don't know the cause of the fires.. Your question would only be relevant if I knew the cause... and..(here comes another wild*** guess), I'm thinking Honda knows the problem, has fixed it at the assembly point, and is hoping that the "tech education" will take care of the ones already on the road.

    regards,
    kyfdx
    (philospher, logician) EDIT: (wild*** guesser)

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • Sorry, haven't been around, but the posts are interesting.

    Since I was mentioned I want to clear up recent events...Few weeks ago Honda agreed to a settlement without admitting fault. I cannot discuss the settlement other than to say the matter has been resolved and I am satisfied (which I truly am).

    I continue to believe that the posts on this site, although repetitive at times, at least saved a few cars and possibly a life, since many people realized that a small leak could have disastrous consequences. Also the info here has been invaluable.

    I AM NOW moving on...(at least on my case)
Sign In or Register to comment.