The Big 3 and the domestic issues that will affect them

gmctruck

"Healthcare concessions pass !!!! "

Now do you REALLY think they had a choice NOT to pass this?
If they didn't pass it, GM would be forced to make the cuts somewhere else like layoffs and closing down more plants.
These concessions should have been put into place a long time ago and don't wait until the company is bleeding to death.

rockylee

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0511/13/A01-380513.htm

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0511/13/D01-380420.htm

Rocky

gmctruck

That article was good reading. Miller made sure his top execs were "taken care of".... no sacrifice there.

The health care concessions are a good start, but I don't think they went far enough. I think the UAW should have given up the $1 hourly increase next year AND help share the high cost of health care benefits. I know that sounds brutal for workers, but which would you rather choose? Some sacrifice to save the company and keep your job, or no income or job at all?

Delphi is a done deal... what will GM/Ford do next?
It will be interesting to see what happens over the next year at GM/Ford. It's going to be a rocky road for sure.

dpat

Supplier pricing isn't really that great of a deal unless it's on a hot model. I notice Cadillac isn't included, and I bet they exempt the Solstice and Corvette. Supplier pricing is right around invoice, and you can usually negotiate down to there anyway.

lemko

An excerpt of an article by Michael J. Handel, FORBES magazine:

The conventional wisdom holds that our economic ills are the result of a gap between workers' skills and job demands. Actually, Americans are more educated now than ever before. Back in the early 1960s, almost half of U.S. students dropped out of high school. Today the dropout rate is below 15 percent. During the same period, college graduation rates climbed from 15 percent to 30 percent. The mythic link between education and productivity became entrenched in the 1970s, when scores on the SAT and ACT college entrance exams dropped along with the economy. But correlation is not causation. It's true that foreign students continue to outscore their American counterparts on the SAT and ACT. Yet by vitually every measure, "U.S. workers are still more productive than almost every other country's." The U.S., economy does have real problems. Income growth remains low and wage inequality continues to widen. But competitive pressures and rampant cost-cutting caused those problems--not the supposedly undereducated American worker. "Were not that dumb."

nortsr1

I priced out a 2006 base Vibe, with the power package, sport package and automatic transmission.This came to a total of $20,195.00. (this includes the dest. charge.)The Invoice price for the same deal comes to $18,472.00. The "RED TAG' price is $19,145.30 (I priced it at the GM site and clicked on RedTag price.) That comes out to $403.30 "more" than invoice AND they "discontinued" the $500. rebate. I don't see any savings on that deal.
I emailed the local Toyota dealer and they are selling the Matrix' for INVOICE and the price is less than the Vibe to begin with. Figure that one out!!
I don't know why they just didn't reinstitute the "Employee price for Everyone" and get it over with because that's what they will have to do to move the product off the lots.
I believe in buying GM (I also have about 2000 points on my GM card) but will have to wait for a better deal than the "RED TAG SALE".

rockylee

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0511/14/A01-381084.htm

This might be the beginning of the end.

Rocky

plekto

Survive or die. Simple as that. Weak companies don't deserve to be coddled or even survive, because something better always takes their place.

We've lost the auto manufacturing business, just like we did the semiconductor, TV, and electronics industries. Why? Purely out of hubris. We believe that wewe are invincible and we can do no wrong. Or at least GM and Ford did for many decades. Now they fall on their faces, as even now they are unwilling ot make real needed changes to stop the hemmoraging.

Yet, I see nobody complaining that their VCR isn't made in the USA anymore. In time, we will learn to live without the majority of vehicles being made here in the U.S. Same as televisions, computers, furniture, ...

gmctruck

"This might be the beginning of the end."

The End....No.
MAJOR changes.... Yes!

Incentives and Red Tag sales aren't going to be enough. GM needs to put their money where their mouth is by offering better warranties and working harder to improve customer service issues. They need to do it better than the rest in order to win customers back.

plekto

You overlook one critical thing. Time.

GM needs to reinvent itself and remake its products. It's not like their competition is going to stand still while they get their act together.

I doubt in the end if they are much larger than 5-10% of the market after the smoke clears.

gmctruck

"GM needs to reinvent itself and remake its products."

Yes... but are they willing to make the necessary drastic changes to do that? Or will GM management and the UAW just stand by and watch the company bleed to death?

Only time will tell what happens next.

nwng

now that they've used prev gen mb e class to turn out the 300 cars, will they use the prev gen ML ( model run just ended) for any vehicles in the future? Not necessarily a durango replacement, but something with the chrysler badge (supposedly more upscale)?

callmedrfill

GM should work on upgrading the buying experience throughout the company, like they did with Saturn. They're already there with the pricing. Maybe if they make they buying experience easier and more appealing, the cars will become more appealing, and easier to sell?

I don't know....better warranties, like the Koreans (not 10 years).

DrFill

rockylee

I agree, The Big 3 as a whole needs to offer better buying expierences. This also includes the service dept.
Rocky

dpat

The more I think of it, I have come to realize that the biggest mistake the big3 have made in their product lines is to surrender the small car market to the imports. Not because there's a lot of money to be made in selling $15,000 cars, but because that's where many of the most important potential buyers are, the first time buyers.

Take, for example, honda. The civic is an incredibly refined sub-$20k car. I doubt honda's making much money selling civics when you add in the cost of completely redesigning it every 5 years to keep it fresh. But, if somebody bought a 2000 civic 5 years ago, and is now looking for a midsized sedan, the fact that their civic has most likely been extremely reliable probably pushes the accord to the front of their list. Conversely, someone who baught a ford focus 5 years ago, and had to deal with a record number of recalls, probably isn't going to consider the new fusion.

If the GM, Ford, or Chrysler were smart, they's invest the money to produce a compact sedan that is BETTER THAN the imports. Even if they had to sell it at a loss, theey'd reap the benefits of a whole bunch of customers being very happy with their products, which leads to brand loyalty. Someone who buys a new Cobalt, Focus, or Neon as their first car will probably buy another 5-10 vehicles in their life. Are any of these cars likely to inspire brand loyalty?

plekto

Correct. I've also said this as well - that the first time buyer and your small cars have to be bulletproof. You want your customers to love their econoboxes that go forever on no maintainence. Then they buy the big 4-Runner in the future - where you make a nice profit.

GM? GM's cars are pathetic. The Aveo is a tin can and they could just up the price $400-$500 and not give you the feeling of being nickel and dimed to death on options. The Cobalt is well, it's no Civic. The gap between the imports basic models and even GM's second-lowest models is large. What's killing GM is that most people ARE willing to spend $1K more for a basic Civic or other better car over a loaded piece of junk.

Can't blame them, really. GM needs to agressively market first time buyers or it will die for sure in 15-20 years when its current repeat-buyer base passes away.

rockylee

Well plekto, the Big 3 might not be around in 15-20 years to have to worry about it. The Big 3 will be in the Future
Toyota, Honda, Hyundai

So basically you will have them to choose from.

Rocky

plekto

I like my Sharp TV set and my Sony VCR and...

Eventually we'll learn to wonder why we even bought those old domestic pieces of junk(classics aside, of course), just like how we don't miss black and white TV.

(only slightly tongue-in-cheek)

rockylee

So you must be one of those pal, that believes the United States can be a service society ???? It's really hard for me to imagine everyone being a real estate agent, doctor, lawyer, stock broker, wally world employee, car salesmen, etc etc. Do you think their will be enough jobs for that type of society in this country ???? or do you think we will have a unemployment rate of 20 % or more. Not every person is cut out to do "these type of service jobs" for a variety of reasons. It might work, but it's hard to phathom our country having to depend on others to build products for our consumption. I know many right wingers see this as our future. I have told them, the next step is a bunch of immigrants, willing to do their jobs for a 1/3 of the cost. I said, "you don't think a immigrant can't come over here and sell cars or real estate" ???? I said hell they could come over here and start a buisness tax free, and send the profits back home. I asked, where do you draw the line on this service society ???? I told my friend, "why would I pay you 7% to sell my home", when I can get a good savy illegal immigrant that will do it for 2% his face -> :surprise: I said whomever is the cheapest Randy !!!!! I am taking a play out of the new capatalistic playbook. Do it as cheap as possible at all costs, and don't look back at what and/or whom it destroys. Just as long as I can get it cheap. I better learn a few foreign languages, so I will beable to speak to my future real estate agent, and car salesmanger

The Japanese won't be competitive anymore, and the koreans will beable to build a better Lexus for half the cost ! :shades:

Rocky

P.S. I hope the Indians or Koreans learn how to build me a Escalade for $25K :P

rockylee

Well the "perception" is by many in this country, that americans are dumb and lazy. :mad: The rest of the world looks at us just being really dumb in politics. :P

Rocky

lemko

There's only so much crap people can take before they snap. If there's a 20% unemployment rate in this country there will be a revolution and a nasty one. Crime will make "Escape from New York" look like "The Sound of Music." If illegal immigrants are taking everybody's job, there will be such a nasty backlash against them it would make the KKK blush. You will also see riots of jobless immigrants, both legal and illegal the likes of those happening in France.

martian

..to the japanese was a big mistake. i somehoe belive that GM has always tried to make their entry-level cars 9cavalier, neon) as cheap as possible. This was for two reasons: (1) to keep the pricing low, and (2) to convince the buyers that they should look at the next model up. Well, this has backfired on them. How much do they really save by putting a cheap interior in a Cobalt? Its probably a matter of at most $200-$300, between a dirt-cheap carpet and seat covers (which a base Cobalt comes with), and something nice 9like you get in a CIVIC). When will they learn? If GM would offer nice interiors, with some creature comforts ..even little things like powered mirros (which don't cost all that much0-which the imports have as standard equipment. Instead, GM will push these bare bones cars into dealer's lots, then wonder why they have to give $1000 rebates and financing deals to move these heaps. Look at the Koreans-they are offering multi-airbag systems on low priced cars-and are reaping new sales as a result.
I'm afrasid that GM hasn't learned a lot in 35 years.One solution might be to force the top executives to drive their low-end models to work-it migh take the blinders off some senior executives eyes.

callmedrfill

My First Ting: You guys are half-right on US economy cars.

The problem for the US isn't JUST that Corollas and Civics are better than Cavaliers and Focus. The problem is also that the gap remains when you move up to Camrys and Accords vs. Taurus and Malibu. The view never changes.

The Corolla and Civic have been studs for 20 years. Corolla more consistent in sales, around 250k for the last 15 years or so. The Civic took off in 1992, with a fantastic redesign, including ABS and SRS, plus 125HP engines, 6-speaker stereos and 3 body styles, one that will fit your needs.

The Ford Escort was still strong through this with the 5 cars for $10995 strategy, when they had a wagon, a 5 door, sedan, GT, and 3 door. The car had versatility, and had 25 years of being at least adequate, no shame in buying an Escort. At least they had a strategy!

When the Escort got it's redesign, it lost it's many body styles, grew a nice, ugly egg shape, and it's warts vs. Civic were much easier to see.

Cavalier was always a sled, and went I think 14 years without a redesign between '84 and '97, so GM accepted the defeatist mentality that Civic and Corolla were just better and they wouldn't invest in a competition. :mad:

The 2nd Ting is, In the Midsize market, since the 1992 Camry, Taurus has been on a steady decline in retail sales, right into oblivion. And Malibu has been pretty consistent bottom-feeder, rental quality car.

Ford had the momentum in 1986, but the fabled "Planned Obsolescence" strikes again and destroys a popular and important car. It learned no new tricks in it's 1992 redesign. :mad: Camry passed it and nver looked back.

Once Toyota shouwed they can make a stud V6, the Taurus had no real value, since that was the only remaining weakness in Accord/Camry. And you could make Camry into a budget luxury car too.

Poor planning, poor execution, poor marketing, lack of vision, ignoring customers, taking sales for granted. This is what killed the US auto industry. Everything else is window dressing.

I'm shocked that Cadillac has actually resesitated itself with this "Art and Science" angle! They're off life support.

Sitting in a CTS makes me wretch, but somebody likes it.

DrFill

xkss

There are other American cars.

The exotic Saleen S7 Twin Turbo

(has racing heritage unlike many current exotics)



and the hand-built Panoz Esperante

(also has racing heritage...an Esperante GTLM won the GT2 class at an ALMS race at Road Atlanta earlier this year)

xkss

Yet, I see nobody complaining that their VCR isn't made in the USA anymore. In time, we will learn to live without the majority of vehicles being made here in the U.S. Same as televisions, computers, furniture, ...

Cars, unlike VCRs, have a far bigger emtional value. I truly enjoy the time I've spent with family and friends in cars unlike computers.

xkss

The new Solstice is the coolest Pontiac since the 1969-70 GTO.

Here is a 1969 Pontiac GTO Judge



1970 GTO Judge



New Solstice





The Solstice's shapely panels are formed by hydroforming (squeezing the steel into the desired shape against a mould under massive pressure) instead of stamping by press.

rockylee

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0511/16/A01-383806.htm :mad:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0511/16/strk-384475.htm

Rocky

lemko

...were VCRs ever built here? I believe Sony invented it. To get an interesting perspective on the history of the VCR, see the Kinnear-Dafoe film "Auto Focus" based on the life of actor Bob Crane. VCRs used to look like big reel-to-reel recorders back in the mid-1960s. When they went to cassettes, the cassettes were at least twice as big as they are now.

We feel more emotional about our cars for this reason - cars are the closest man-made object we have to a living being. So much of our culture is tied to the automobile from where we live, where and how we shop, how we vacation, and how we even come of age. Heck, I remember major life events on the cars people owned at the time. Many were GM cars and most of the memories are very pleasant.

iluvmysephia1

cars. I remember the Pirates winning the World Series in 1979 because I was going to school then in downtown Seattle and also interested in my 35mm camera. I still remember taking a picture of the winning run as the Pirate slid across home plate. I snapped a picture of it and recently found that picture in my wife and I's extensive picture collection. Where am I heading with all of this? I'll tell you.

The car I drove from Edmonds, 15 miles north of Seattle, to downtown Seattle every day was my original car, my 1965 Ford Mustang. I still love it and I can stare up on top of my computer whenever I want to look at a model of one. The model is a '65 convertible in ice blue, shown with the top down. My point is that I tie all of those memories together. There is emotion involved.

The 2006 Pontiac Solstice is the type of vehicle a person can be proud to own. I look at the Ford, DCX and GM lineup of cars now and there's basically the Solstice, maybe the Chevy HHR and SSR and maybe the Pontiac G6 (maybe the Pontiac G6) that might invoke emotion and this close tie to what's going on in your life at the time.

plekto

A few desireable models don't bring in the sales required to stay in business unless your drop to Porsche or Saleen in size. GM's problem is that it makes incredibly bland cars with horribly dated ergonomics on about 90% of what it sells. So they do poorly.

The new Mazda MX-5(Miata replacement) actually bested the Solstice in real-world testing - check out the video review on this very site. GM's innovation is really a step behind when Mazda can trump their newest yuppie toy.

BMW also is being pressured as well - the IS350 is a 3 series contender that appears to be besting the standard(not the M3) models with ease.

GM... Ford... Not enough bread-and-butter vehicles that are worth buying to stay afloat.

callmedrfill

They want to build Toyotas without the Toyota quality or image.

Toyota's aren't fun or exciting, and from the looks of it, that won't change much in the future. But they keep up with the times, gain USEFUL IMPROVEMENTS every 3-5 years (not 7-10 years), so they are always competitive with the best in class, and quality IMPROVES EVERY generation. Easy to use. Won't upset their owner.

The Big 3 don't keep up with Joneses. Redesigns can be 6-8 years away, if they feel the design is BAD (Ford Focus). If they think it's good, it could be 10-15 years (Cavalier, Corvette).

Another problem is if you get a Corvette, for example, and then you drive a Malibu or somethin', they might as well be made by different companies.

You sit in a Honda or Toyota, you can feel the same level of quality in a Civic as you do a S2000 or Odyssey.

The Big3 don't put the same amount of effort into all of their cars, and it shows.

You can tell Toyota sweated every detail on the Corolla, and the same with Honda and their Civic.

It's OBVIOUS that Ford didn't do that on the Focus. And the Cobalt is no benchmark either. :sick:

How the Focus skips a generation in this market, when they actually made a car people were buying, and lose their momentum, is beyond me. This Mazda3 platform is one of the best in the business, and Ford misses the boat, again. :confuse:

DrFill

anythngbutgm

Summed up nicely... Although, aside from the Focus, it seems FMC is getting better at it. The Fusion is a million times the car that the Taurus wishes it was and the Explorer seems to have gotten the necessary updates during its refresh. The Focus has languished a bit though and the Escape is DUE!

littlez

The two biggest problems Ford faces is their retiree benefit expenses and variable marketing. The retiree benefit expenses add nearly $2,000 to the price of each Ford. Then they have to turn around and incentivize the heck out of them to sell them. The imports will sell a vehicle near to sticker with little to no variable marketing expenses. Yeah, I know someone could write, but the import is worth the sticker price. Well, not always. There is quite a bit of customer perception that has to be overcome by Ford and GM. How do they do that? Building a better vehicle apparently isn't the answer. They're building them better, but customers who have left the domestics aren't coming back. If you look at some of the dependability studies, most of the manufacturers below industry average are imports; Kia, MINI Cooper, Volkswagen, Isuzu, Daewoo, Audi, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Subaru, Hyundai, Mazda, Saab, Mercedes-Benz, etc. Again I ask, how do Ford and GM overcome the "imports are better" perception?

fintail

Building a better vehicle can happen when one realizes that quality and reliability are not the same thing. Some industry bigwigs apparently don't get it.

littlez

Please explain. From my perspective, a quality built vehicle will not be back for recalls and repairs. Put in gas, change the oil and go. Doesn't that sound like long-term reliability also?

fintail

Quality = materials. Ask an Audi or VW owner about that.

A car can have poor materials but be above average in reliability. GM has shown this.

lemko

A Rolex watch may be better crafted and have gold and diamonds but it doesn't tell time any better than the cheap Pulsar watch I bought at Caldor over 10 years ago.

proteus456

Domestic manufacturers need attention to details, and quality materials in order to compete effectively.

GM CAN build decent engines. Northstar is a prime example.
Offer EVERY GM car with a refined, modern OHC engine as an option. Offer EVERY GM car with a modern, independent suspension as an option. Use high quality plastics, materials, and good switchgear on interiors. Modernize assembly plants to allow for quality exterior design with high tolerances (fewer gaps).

My most recent car buying experience was a family people mover a few years ago. Most domestic SUV's were immediately dismissed, since they were based on obsolete, unrefined truck platforms. The one modern design (at the time) was the Buick Rendezvous. After a test drive, we dismissed it immediately for the abysmal passing performance on the highway, due to the crappy pushrod V6. The interior seating was nice, but the switchgear and materials were all cheap, thin plastic. The lousy live axle suspension and gravel truck sounding engine doomed it.

Then, we looked at minivans. The GM models were ALL underpowered, with the SAME crappy pushrod V6 and cheap interor. Some even had drum brakes? Gah!

Next, we looked at the Honda Odyssey. Modern, powerful, smooth DOHC engine, putting out 250hp, with better mileage and less noise than the 3.4 GM pushrod. Nice interior, quality switchgear, and available DVD GPS navigation. Double wishbone suspension gave a carlike ride. And of course, modern brakes.
Did it cost a few $1000 more than the GM minivans? Sure. Did I give a crap? Not really. We'll be driving it for another 100k miles at least. Many of us American consumers are not "wal-mart" shoppers. We're willing to PAY for quality, if you actually offer it.

It was shocking to me that GM in 2002 was not offering features I had on my old '97 Audi, or even 95 Toyota Camry.
I sure hope its gotten better since then. Resale is another huge problem. I can lease a e-class Mercedes for less than a entry level Lincoln or Cadillac!

bumpy

"The lousy live axle suspension and gravel truck sounding engine doomed it."

In defense of the indefensible Buick Rendezvous, it doesn't have a solid rear axle. I don't know what it does have back there (aside from a ridiculously complex assemblage of parts that seem to be pretty much worthless), but a live axle's not it.

callmedrfill

The word for today is value.

Value is not a powerful engine, or a slick style, or a nice price. It's combining multiple factors that your TARGETED consumer will appreciate, presenting them in a cohesive unit, without showing them that you had to cut costs here to put something else there. Safety, materials in the cabin, NVH, unique features that highlight each model relative to the class, and the automakers lineup itself. Feature - Benefit.

Give the owner the right to feel like they are driving something special. If it cost an extra $1k to do that, fine!

Cars that have done that are the Chrysler 300, 1992 Toyota Camry, 1992 Honda Civic, 1999 Honda Odyssey, 1986 Ford Taurus, 1990 Lexus LS, 1999 Lexus RX, and 1984 Dodge Caravan, to name the most successful over the last 20 years.

Go and do likewise. The one thing these cars all share in common is they were all OVER-engineered, and took their model to a new level, they became the clear standard, not for a year or two, but for a generation. They didn't play catch-up (Fusion, Malibu), they made their companies THE LEADER in that category. They MADE the category! :shades:

Like Lee I. would say, Lead, Follow, or get out of the way!

It's 2006! We should be getting better cars from America than Malibu, Colorado, CTS, and Uplander. These are not even competitive! They are filler!

With the Toyotas of the world on full-attack mode, it becomes pretty easy to see who is playing to win, and who is playing the game just to say they are a player. Just to say they are somebody.

Like my man Herm Edwards would say, "You play to win the Game"!

I don't see Ford or GM winning many games, and they have no one to blame but themselves.

At least Chrysler's got some good dogs in the fight, with Mercedes' considerable help.

DrFill

plekto

Saab, Mercedes, BMW, and Volvo also made stellar entry-level cars from time to time, with the 940 probably being the best example of quality and refinement at the time(for only $22-24K if you shopped around).

GM... My "project" classic 67 Mercedes(needs another month of work and $500-$800 more in parts to be mint again) even has some features that modern GMs are missing, believe it or not, like dual climate zones, foglights, 4-wheel disc brakes, and of course, leather seats. If they can do that nearly 40 years ago, why not today, even on the most basic cars?

fintail

What kind of old MB do you have?

plekto

It's kind of - okay - quite off-topic - lol... but it's a 230S. Drives quite differently than more modern cars, yet has style and safety that are adequate, even by today's terms. I guess it makes me wonder sometimes - why we need all of the computers, plastic, and so on and STILL companies like Chrysler and GM can't seem to get the basics of the engine and transmission right.

fintail

No worries, nobody is posting here anyway

So you've got a fintail! Cool! I have a 220SE. Fintails are pretty excellent cars.

rockylee

I have to agree with you Dr.

Rocky

djm2

The "Big Three" created their own problems back in the 70s when they produced poor quality products, and they trained their factory reps. to ignore the concerns of the customers. As a result, the buying public moved over to Honda, Volkswagen, Toyota and Nissan. Now their children are purchasing the same brands plus Kia, Hyundai, Isuzu, Daewoo, Audi, Suzuki, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Saab and Mercedes - Benz. The unions did not kill the "Big Three", rather, their "attitude toward the customer base" killed their professional image in the market place. If all the people in the United States, who are presently purchasing one of the above listed vehicles, would now purchase a Ford, GM or a Chrysler product, the "Big Three" would be "ok"! The "Big Three" would like the buying public to believe that the union demands put them into this financial situation, but that is simply not true. Customers have abandoned them over the years because of poor quality, and poor customer service when something went wrong with the product. The "Big Three" created their own problem. A good example of this is the Chrysler Corp.. The Dodge Intrepid has been plagued with engine / oil related problems, steering, suspension, A/C, and electrical issues. The "net" is loaded with consumer complaints, but Chrysler chooses to ignore the customer, and blame everything on the customer. (It is always the customer's fault!) They design beautiful vehicles, then they stop short, with the mechanical quality and customer satisfaction! If the "Big Three" wants to come back, they need to win the American Buying Public back, and that is not going to be easy. They have created a monster over the years! ----- Best regards. ---- Dwayne

rockylee

Great points !

littlez

Good points, but can I add another one?

The japanese government back in the 70's was dumping billions of dollars into their industrial base; electronics, motorcycles and automobiles. They continued to help all japanese companies to put American companies out of business. Guess what, who owns the electronics industry now? Who owns the motorcycle industry? And now, who is trying to own the automobile industry? Think about where our disposable income goes and what percentage actually goes to anything American-made anymore.

I'm not saying that there is no fault on the Big 3, but the japanese government involvement with technologies and alternative fuel vehicles is why Bill Ford went President Bush to ask for help.

lemko

That and the United States government was pouring billions into its military to protect Japan from the Soviet Union and Red China for 40+ years. Without our military defense, Japan would've been invaded by Joe Stalin to become the Nippon Soviet Socialist Republic. They'd be building Lada-based Toyoskis and Hondovs today.