Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

akirby

Just because Mercuries are heavily marketed to women doesn't mean they're exclusively for women. I like most Mercury vehicles as much or more than their Ford counterparts while my wife is the opposite. As for being a niche player I meant that rather than being rebadged Fords they could use Mercury to make unique vehicles off shared platforms (e.g. using the Miata platform for a Mercury roadster). Of course that can only happen after Ford gets the basic stuff sorted out, so I'm talking about 5 years from now, not next year.

As for Lincoln being the volume brand - Ford has already said that just a few weeks ago. Coupled with the obvious lack of new products from Mercury and I think the writing is on the wall.

marsha7

I believe the saying you were looking for is "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him eat spaghetti and meatballs"...:):):)

[Deleted User]

Yes, the writing is on the wall, but my point was, it is stupid writing. Lincolns are too expensive to take over the volume that is possible within the Mercury price range...unless of course they are going to be satisfied with the pathetic volume of current Mercury and Lincoln sales combined. Yes, Lincoln could probably attain that. But so what?

If Mercury had product there is no way Lincoln could sell more. It is just economics. It is better to aim high and miss than to aim low and hit. Whoever has been at the reins of Mercury planning is either oblivious to the facts or retarded.

akirby

Lincolns are too expensive to take over the volume that is possible within the Mercury price range

Mercury's price range is the same as Ford's price range right now. And it seems to work for Toyota and Lexus. Lexus starts with the ES350 and goes right up to the LS460. Why can't Ford and Lincoln do the same? Why do you need something in between a loaded Fusion and a base MKZ? Just allow Ford to move a bit higher and you're all set.

Don't forget that more and more dealers are merging into F/L/M dealers so you don't need rebadged Mercury models to sustain volume.

[Deleted User]

Mercury's price range is the same as Ford's price range right now. And it seems to work for Toyota and Lexus. This is exactly why we don't agree. First of all, Ford and Mercury are trying to cover the same territory. It never used to be that way. A Mercury used to be a junior Lincoln or at least a step up from Ford. And yes, Toyota and Lexus have hit on a formula that seems to work for them. Great. It's bad enough that the MKS looks like a Toyota or Lexus. Is Ford thinking they can make themselves over into that?

A Lexus is generally a quality product, a highline appliance. No matter how good (and they are), they don't have that gotta have it quality that used to drive people to buy Lincolns, and still entices people to buy BMWs, Mercedes, for a couple years the Chrysler 300, and now Cadillacs again.

Lexus may still get there...they have some concepts floating now that are actually neither bland nor derivative. Even if they don't jazz up their desirability to those who will buy anything but, their sales to non-car oriented people are (and will likely remain) quite impressive. But guess where old Lincoln will be if they try copying the Lexus model? Once again, behind. Lexus and Infiniti seem to have that base covered. Even Acura can't make real inroads there, and right now Lincoln's car lineup for the next few years most resembles Acura's.

akirby

So you want 3 brands across the price spectrum instead of 2 with Mercury falling in between Ford and Lincoln? What's the advantage over just 2 with Ford being a little higher and Lincoln being a little lower? The Japanese only have 2 brands (Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus (scion is a niche brand), Nissan/Infiniti). The Europeans really only have one brand each unless you count VW and Audi together.

I just don't see why you need 3 brands or why Mercury today has to be the same as Mercury of 30 years ago.

I also see why we disagree. I'm looking at what Ford, Lincoln and Mercury need to sell vehicles and you're only looking at it from the standpoint of them building something that YOU personally want to buy.

But guess where old Lincoln will be if they try copying the Lexus model? Once again, behind.

So you think they can compete with BMW and Mercedes more easily than they can compete with Lexus, Infiniti and Acura? Maybe once they get the new RWD platforms and new TwinForce and Hurricane engines. But right now they ARE competing with Lexus - like it or not.

And last time I checked - Lexus was selling a lot of vehicles - profitably.

I think you're just frustrated that they don't make the type of car that you want, as opposed to making the type of car that makes the most business sense right now.

[Deleted User]

Don't necessarily disagree with your thinking. I just think Mercury could be something other than scrunched between Ford and Lincoln. I also think they are foolish to believe that, at this point, they can build Lincoln into a Lexus-type model. There's not the room in the market first of all. It's not like the other luxury makers ahead of LIncoln are stumbling or planning to sell less. And Lincoln is so far proposing nothing that has Lexus or Audi or BMW, or even Cadillac scared. Have you seen the long list of models coming from Audi alone in the next 3-4 years? Sure, some of them will be mediocre sellers, but Aud and BMW and Infiniti and Cadillac are ramping up, do or die. Fat chance things like the MKS will scare them. Plus, why would I trust planners that take four years to come up with something like the MKS? After they tossed out all the Lincoln concepts that grabbed everyone's attention? You and I both know it will sell, but it won't make any significant inroads against the big guys. And it could have looked more like a Lincoln, or at least the new "champhered and divided grill-type" Lincoln, even being FWD. This was not planning. This is mediocre suit business as usual. I'll gladly eat yours and my hat if this Lexus-Infinity wannabe and its ilk turns Lincoln around and allows Mercury to be fully put out to pasture. Ford has now had literally decades to copy the Toyota-Lexus model. Well, Toyota didn't set about to shrink themselves to success. And I doubt as well that Scion will be the last division they create.

akirby

The MKS was already "in the can" so to speak when Lincoln figured out what it wanted to do with the brand and the only thing they were able to change was the grille.

The things that give me hope for the future are:

new global RWD platform (rumors are Lincoln will have their version more quickly than first thought, which would be a welcome surprise)

unique sheetmetal and engines (not shared with similar Ford or Mercury cars or crossovers)

new techno goodies (keyless entry/start, adaptive HIDs, sync, auto wipers, selectshift, auto cruise control, etc.). I believe this is as much if not more important than performance in this segment (and you may not agree).

The MKS is the first real attempt from the new Lincoln. I think the Lincoln Flex will take it even further since they've had more time with it.

volvomax

I don't know that Ford has the resources to remake Lincoln as a real luxury player.

It would have made sense to have Lincoln partner with Jaguar on new models, esp a new mid size RWD car.
The MKS exists because Volvo did the heavy lifting, but even so it is an unfinished product.

The ONLY business case for Mercury is as an importer of the Euro Fords.
The Mondeo, Ka, Euro Focus.
US Ford has nothing like these cars.
Don't bother w/ the Merkur badge, just call them Mercury's.
Saturn is doing this w/ Opel.

akirby

It would have made sense to have Lincoln partner with Jaguar on new models, esp a new mid size RWD car.

Yeah, because it worked out SO well for the LS, huh?

The MKS exists because Volvo did the heavy lifting

Yeah, because the MKS is EXACTLY like a Volvo. Keep dreaming.

marsha7

You did hit a note, there...our local Ford dealer, in the last year or so, became Ford/Lincoln/Mercury, and also added Hyundai...so he has all the FoMoCo bases covered...

Just a thought, why can't they really make a Mercury more than a Ford but not as luxury as a Lincoln???...have some option packages available for Mercury that are simply not available on a Ford, and make the sheetmetal different so a Grand Marquis really has a different look than the Crown Vic...

Small example...Explorer has 4WD while Mountaineer has AWD...maybe this is a poor example, but I still think that certain option packages, whether luxury or performance could differentiate a Ford from a Grand Marq...

Pie in the sky???...I don't know, but maybe they either need to put good money and distinguish Mercury or kill it and be done with it...

akirby

Because they could just offer more options on the Ford models instead.

I'm not saying they should get rid of Mercury - just that they could use it for unique vehicles instead of Ford clones, especially if Lincoln has enough vehicles to keep the L/M only dealers going (if there are any of those left).

jkr2106

There was a discussion similar to this thread on "Will Mercury soon be joining Plymouth and Oldsmobile?", and my vision for FoMoCo going forward is a bit different. Since Jaguar is up for sale, Lincoln should be ultimate luxury like Mercedes and BMW (and what Cadillac wants to be). Meanwhile Mercury can be similar to Lexus's volume/more attainable models like the RX and ES which generate much (most?) of the sales for Lexus. This would call for the MKX and MKZ to be Mercurys and they would compete with the RX/Enclave/MDX and the ES/LaCrosse/TL and keep L-M dealers with sufficient volume. This would also allow Lincoln to be positioned as a Tier 1 brand because they could focus on RWD ultra luxury without dragging their name through the mud with an MKZ (whick is an okay car, just not good enough for Lincoln).

Of course all this would take money they (FoMoCo) don't have.

akirby

That could work as long as they're more than just rebadged Fords. But I'd rather see Mercury do different vehicles.

jkr2106

In theory, they'd be as related as the Impala and LaCrosse or Camry and ES...something along those lines.

akirby

So you'd have a Fusion and then a Milan which is basically like the current MKZ (different interior, sheet metal, engine). Where does that leave Lincoln? Or would Mercury essentially get the MKZ and MKS and Lincoln would only do $50K+ RWD sedans?

jkr2106

Mercury would get the MKZ(milan), MKX(mountaineer?), MKS (which AFAIC can die before it hits the market) and Lincoln would only do $38K+ RWD sedans(Zephyr=3/C/IS, Continental=5/E/GS/CTS, Town Car=7/S/LS), + navigator, and some non-FWD crossovers (navicross?=X3/future-GLK, aviator=X5/ML). Then after some success throw in some coupes/convertibles, and ABOVE ALL don't keep model generations on market for more than 5-6 years and not without significant refreshes for year 4.

akirby

I could see that I suppose. Of course they won't have the platforms to do that for a few more years.

I still think Mercury should do one-offs like a Miata based roadster.

jeyhoe

"Lincoln should be ultimate luxury like Mercedes and BMW (and what Cadillac wants to be). "

Cadillac is far closer to being what u envision that Lincoln ever was, or is ever likely to be.

As for Ford's ultimate luxury brand now that Jaguar is on the block? Volvo. They announced it this week. Ford is taking Volvo 'upmarket'. That's their luxury brand now. I can't see paying anymore for a Volvo than they already want, but maybe that's just me. Lincoln? C'mon folks we've been over this for 7 or 8 years now. THere was promise for Lincoln in the first couple years of the century. Now? Lincoln is relegated to a Ford trim level. Take a look at their offerings and deny that. Mercury? Niche vehicles? Already happening. The niche is women. There will be no euro-mercs or roadsters. Just another low-ball Ford trim level so the Lincolns can look good by comparison. Perhaps they'll soon offer a free Gucci purse with every Merc?

jkr2106

Cadillac is far closer to being what u envision that Lincoln ever was, or is ever likely to be.

Which is great for me because I'm more of a GM enthusiast than a FoMoCo fan.

Ford is taking Volvo 'upmarket'. That's their luxury brand now.

They're taking it upmarket, but I've always seen Volvo being to Ford what SAAB is to GM: a way to lure in customers who wouldn't buy from the core brands. Conversely, there are many people that won't buy a SAAB or Volvo and want an American luxury car. So, I don't think Volvo can be FoMoCo's only luxury brand. Lincoln NEEDS to step up.

I can't see paying anymore for a Volvo than they already want, but maybe that's just me.

It's not.

The niche is women.

I could be mistaken, but I'd venture to guess that the ES and RX have higher than average number of female buyers. So, IMO that image works well with what I propose for Mercury.

volvomax

Yeah, because it worked out SO well for the LS, huh?

actually, it DID work out nicely for the LS.
It was a much better car than the Caddy Catera that it competed with.
The difference is that Caddy worked on the Catera, and now they have the CTS.
Lincoln never bothered to improve the LS, and now Jag has the new XF sedan.

Yeah, because the MKS is EXACTLY like a Volvo. Keep dreaming.

the MKS borrows the new S80's chassis.
If it is half as nice as the new S80, it will be a very nice car indeed, and it will be much nicer than any Lincoln prior.

volvomax

Well, there are some problems with this.
Lincoln needs cars in the low $30's to draw people to the brand.
That is what the low end Lexus, Mercedes, BMW's etc do.
So, taking away the MKZ(which IS the Zephyr) and the Edge based MKX away would kill Lincolns sales.
Esp taking the crossover away.
Mercury doesn't have the image or cachet to justify $30,000+ pricing on cars that are essentially the same as Fords.
Also, Ford doesn't have the money or the platforms to keep Lincoln totally separate.

savetheland

Ford probably makes mistake by moving Volvo up market to compete with German luxury 3. There is a reason why best luxury cars are made by Germans and best ultra-luxury cars by British. Swedes are different and more modest. Volvo as a solid, winter FWD/AWD premium car perfectly reflects Swedish character. Luxury Volvo has no integrity in it – it will most likely flop in Sweden and all other markets. Lincoln better suits role of luxury brand for big comfortable cars - Ford needs only will to make this happen. Of course neither Volvo nor Lincoln can replace Jaguar because Jaguar is different kind of animal.

jeyhoe

The LS was and probably will remain the best Lincoln ever built. Idont really know why akirby denigrates it so much. The biggest negative about it was that Ford ignored it.

The mks does NOT borrow the new S80 chassis, rather it is built on the OLD S80 chassis, as are the Montego and 500 or whatever. Like the Jag before it, the Volvo will always have the more modern and expensive components when compared to the perennial stepchild, Lincoln.

savetheland

The main reason for that is that Volvo is a global car and all engineering happens outside of USA. So Australian and European Ford models will always be ahead of American ones.

jkr2106

Lincoln needs cars in the low $30's to draw people to the brand.
That is what the low end Lexus, Mercedes, BMW's etc do.
When you find a "low $30's" BMW you let me know. It may start at $32K, but the lowest one on my local dealer's lot is $36220. Even worse, only 5 out of the 18 were under $40K.

So, taking away the MKZ(which IS the Zephyr) and the Edge based MKX away would kill Lincolns sales.
Esp taking the crossover away.
1. I know the MKZ is the Zephyr, I just would prefer Lincoln use real names. It's not that alphanumeric names are bad, just that they want it pronounced "Mark Z" which I think is idiotic. So, I kept the entry-level Lincoln Sedan as a "Z"-something to promote some sense of continuity.
2. Most Lincoln dealers are coupled with Mercury dealers, so moving them to another brand should not be a problem, especially when MB and BMW don't even have a FWD midsizer.
3. It's not like I said they don't need a crossover. I said they don't need a FWD crossover, so I proposed something along the lines of the X3/upcoming-GLK and X5/ML which have either RWD or 4/AWD.

Mercury doesn't have the image or cachet to justify $30,000+ pricing on cars that are essentially the same as Fords.
That Mercury doesn't have the cachet is a legitimate criticism. But, hey, I can dream can't I? To be fair to my lineup, though, I'm not talking about something that is essentially the same as a Ford. I'm talking about going from a Camry(fusion) to an ES(milan) or a Highlander(edge) to a RX(mountaineer?). The MKZ starts at 30 and the MKX at 35. So, maybe the brand can't pull those kinds of numbers, but, in theory, an entry-lux midsize sedan and crossover of the same calibur should be able to.

Also, Ford doesn't have the money or the platforms to keep Lincoln totally separate.
I already said that. I know this plan takes money they don't have. Scroll up a few messages. :P

british_rover

3. It's not like I said they don't need a crossover. I said they don't need a FWD crossover, so I proposed something along the lines of the X3/upcoming-GLK and X5/ML which have either RWD or 4/AWD.

Well in the US at least there aren't any rwd X3/GLK or X5/ML. The average consumer doesn't even know the difference in how the engine is set up in a X3 vs the transverse setup in the MKS and the transverse setup actually does have some advantages over the longitudinal setup of the X3 and other cars.

jkr2106

I was pretty sure they were either 4 or AWD, but I knew for sure they weren't FWD. Thanks for the clarity.

akirby

The LS was and probably will remain the best Lincoln ever built. Idont really know why akirby denigrates it so much. The biggest negative about it was that Ford ignored it.

I know what it was - I bought one of the first ones and drove it for 6 years. The problem was the biggest engine that would fit in it was the Jag 4.2L. The 4.6L wouldn't fit which made it more expensive and limited the drivetrain options. The dew98 platform was good, but it had it's flaws (this from the suspension engineers that tuned it, so don't take my word for it). It was also too expensive for Lincoln (worked for Jag because they sold for $10K more right off the bat.

It just wasn't the right car for Lincoln but I think the new RWD MKR will be even better.

theman123

OK OK OK Lincoln is doomed because they don't make a 3000 HP rear wheel drive BMW 3 series fighter while delivering 100 MPG for half the price. And All Lincoln's need a 16 speed manual stick shift transmission so we can all rip our arms out of it's socket in stop and go traffic. And shame on Lincoln for building cars for people that actually go to work and need fuel economy for 7 years. They need to make nothing but BMW fighters so Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear can call them "American pieces of S$%^ !!!" What are they thinking !?!?!!?

Believe me WE GOT IT !!!!!!!!!!!! The LS is gone, and it WAS a great car let it rest in peace. But, something tells me that it's not gone forever. However, the MKZ is not chop liver. Now, it seems like to me that the secret of the MKZ is starting to get out. Check out this video review of the MKZ and tell me what you all think.

MKZ video review

euphonium

The problem was the biggest engine that would fit in it was the Jag 4.2L.

I remember the LS had a 4.2, but was understanding it was of it's own design and not parts interchangeable with the Jag 4.2. Please understand I'm not arguing, but just checking.

akirby

Actually the LS and Jag S type shared the same block but almost all of the other components were different right down to the cylinder linings. Jag started with a 4.0L and later increased the stroke to make it 4.2L. The Lincoln version had a shorter stroke than the Jag 4.0L and thus was a 3.9L in both the Tbird and LS. Lincoln never had a 4.0L or 4.2L version.

Incidentally the 4.6L would fit in the engine bay (Lincoln actually built one with a supercharged 4.6L engine as a test mule) but it could not be installed from the bottom due to one of the suspension pieces and that was a requirement for the assembly line.

[Deleted User]

"Whether this translates into marketplace success remains to be seen."

This was a commercial. There was no comparison with its peers, no mention of how it was better or worse than any competitors, no suggestions for improvement. It is of course a good car, but tell me any car in that price class that wouldn't come off the same way (as a good car) in that sort of presentation. Cadillac, Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Audi, Volvo...none of them make crap. MKZ sales have pretty much peaked at a decent, but hardly remarkable level. Better that Lincoln has it than not. But even Lincoln would agree that it would be even better had it not had to share doors, roof, all window glass, wheelbase and engines with the Fusion (which will have the 3.5 within months). Better if it had stability control like every other one of its peers.

Yes, it is good Lincoln has it right now. But it is no longer any "secret." It has been advertised up the wazoo. If and when Lincoln recovers, it would still make a better Mercury as it is now, with Lincoln getting a car in that price class that wouldn't need so many excuses. Think Cadillac CTS, even if that is not your cup of tea (it's not mine). The press everywhere is praising it, it does very well compared to its peers without needing a zillion hp or any other hype.

Lincoln isn't doomed, but it is in need of greater respect. That is gotten with product, not excuses, or pointing out that their cars seem to do stuff ok.

volvomax

When you find a "low $30's" BMW you let me know. It may start at $32K, but the lowest one on my local dealer's lot is $36220. Even worse, only 5 out of the 18 were under $40K.

Even $36k isn't expensive by BMW standards.
BMW sells a ton of 328is w/ vinyl.

1. I know the MKZ is the Zephyr, I just would prefer Lincoln use real names. It's not that alphanumeric names are bad, just that they want it pronounced "Mark Z" which I think is idiotic. So, I kept the entry-level Lincoln Sedan as a "Z"-something to promote some sense of continuity.

If Lincoln wants to go alphanumeric, they should go MK3, MK5, MK7 etc.

2. Most Lincoln dealers are coupled with Mercury dealers, so moving them to another brand should not be a problem, especially when MB and BMW don't even have a FWD midsizer.
3. It's not like I said they don't need a crossover. I said they don't need a FWD crossover, so I proposed something along the lines of the X3/upcoming-GLK and X5/ML which have either RWD or 4/AWD.

I have to agree w/ britishrover. I don't think most crossover buyers car whether the car is RWD or FWD biased. Most crossover buyers would be coming out of FWD cars anyway.

jeyhoe

"The LS was and probably will remain the best Lincoln ever built. Idont really know why akirby denigrates it so much. The biggest negative about it was that Ford ignored it.

I know what it was - I bought one of the first ones and drove it for 6 years. The problem was the biggest engine that would fit in it was the Jag 4.2L. The 4.6L wouldn't fit which made it more expensive and limited the drivetrain options. The dew98 platform was good, but it had it's flaws (this from the suspension engineers that tuned it, so don't take my word for it). It was also too expensive for Lincoln (worked for Jag because they sold for $10K more right off the bat.

It just wasn't the right car for Lincoln but I think the new RWD MKR will be even better. "

I hate arguing with you because you're the most helpful person on this forum. But, what the heck ... You and I both had new LSes. Yours 2000 V8? Mine 2001 V6/manual trans. You drove yours 6 years, I'm in my 6th year now. Mine, with 2 exceptions - the front sway bar bushings and the auto-HVAC (oh and those plastic chrome lug nuts) - has been darn near perfect. Yours? I dont recall u complaining much about your particular car?
Less than perfect has been the way the dealer and then Ford field engineering treated me and the car. THeir ineptitude and condescension alone would be enough to keep most people from ever talking about buying a Ford product again.

But I still dont know why you denigrate it.

You say the engine bay limited the drivetrain options? Well, the LS had more drivetrain options than ANY Lincoln currently on sale. In fact, NO current Lincoln has ANY drivetrain options (not incl AWD). One engine, one transmission, NO control over the combo except D-L in several cases. THe LS had V6 or V8 and manual (2000-2002) or 5speed auto with or without 'auto-stick.' That's more than 1/2 dozen different power train combos. And I haven't heard a whole lot of complaints about having the Jaguar V8 in a Lincoln. And the V6 is practically bulletproof. And these options were available day 1. The mks will have only ONE engine avail day 1 with Twin force supposedly arriving a year or less later. Uh-huh.
DEW-98 is the aluminum-suspension chassis on which the LS and the still-for-sale Jaguar S-Type live on. It was designed by Formula-1 experienced engineers. Nothing is perfect for sure, though the only problem that's ever evidenced with my suspension is the afore-mentioned front sway bar bushings. Aluminum IS more expensive for sure. However, the Jaguar suspension was far more complex that the Lincoln version, using CATS technology, and this accounts for much of the cost difference. You've said many times that Ford lost money on every LS. But the person who was the Lincoln VP of marketing at the time the LS was designed and introduced and for 2 or 3 years running said the LS was a money-maker when he was there.
You say you think the mkr will be better than the LS, yet you dont know anything about the platform it will be on except that it will be RWD. How can u say this? Seems that the most probable chassis will be borrowed from an Aussie Ford. Personally, I'd much rather share my chassis with a Jaguar.

Last you say the LS was not the right car for Lincoln? I say bull. The LS was the first car that got Lincoln noticed by the automotive press for being anything but a poorly-executed Ford trim level with a luxury-wannabe personality. Lincoln was a joke. Suddenly the LS comes along, wins COTY, darn near beats the 5-series in a car and driver comparo, Beats the 5-series in handling, etc etc. With some work, the car could be where the CTS is now, he__ Lincoln had a 2 year headstart on Cadillac, then folded. "We were bluffing all along" is the way I read Fords' attempt to make Lincoln a world-class brand. No, Imaintain the LS was the right car for Lincoln, pointing the way to what it could have been. Now? There's nothing approaching 'world-class' in Lincolns' lineup. Nothing even capable of a good showing in a comparo. Nothing They finish near last when compared with anything. You say 'wait for the S - well, that's LAST YEARs Volvo. Wait for the R - which will probably be last years Aussi Ford.

Me? I'm not waiting. I am watching though and I hope you're right. But I have my doubts.

jeyhoe

Yeah, I got my 2 auto-magazines this month. In once, the CTS is crowned Car of the Year. In the other, the CTS is named one of the 10 best cars in the WORLD. Caddy has done what Lincoln did not have the stones to do.

jeyhoe

"Even $36k isn't expensive by BMW standards.
BMW sells a ton of 328is w/ vinyl."

And that $36k buys what is almost universally called the best drivers car in the world.

akirby

You're reading WAY too much into my statements. Just because I don't call it the best vehicle ever made doesn't mean I didn't like it or respect it. It had a lot of positives - great handling, nice features that are only just now returning to Lincoln with the MKS (select-shift, auto wipers, electric steering adjustment, etc.).

There is no way the 3.9/4.0/4.2L AJV8 can come close to matching the cost or power output of the corporate modular V8s. The aluminum suspension was extremely expensive. The rear end was 8.8" and not interchangeable with other Ford performance vehicles. No LSD. The rear legroom was atrocious. It was very harsh over bumps which was due to the suspension geometry (not enough front to rear travel IIRC).

Don't you think there was a reason why the Mustang team started with dew98 but ended up basically starting over from scratch?

The LS was designed for Europe - that's why it had a manual and such a small V8 among other things.

Don't underestimate the new RWD platform and Ford's new engines. The MKR will have more power and better handling at probably 2/3 of the cost of the LS with WAY more features (see the MKS) and a better interior.

I think you need to take off your LS blinders and be a little more open to reality.

jeyhoe

Blinders? Hey, the LS is not the be-all and end-all of cars to me (and I never called it 'the best VEHICLE ever made' - I called it the best LINCOLN ever made). Just one heckuvan effort from an American company to match the best in the world. Nothing Lincoln has in the pipe now even aspires to that.
I paid about $32K for my LS (sticker $37,600). Are you saying I will be able to get a more powerful, better handling, better appointed mkr for about $21-24,000? OK then, I'm there dude. Unfortunately, you probably mean that it will cost Ford 2/3 of an LS. But it will cost me and the rest of Joe public probably 1/2 again more than an LS - like $50,000 plus.
The LS was not designed FOR Europe, but it was designed to be sold in Europe. But it never was. Another bluff and failure for Lincoln.
Rear legroom "atrocious"? Disagree. "Very harsh" over bumps? Compared to what? The sport package did ride a little rougher- an engineering tradeoff for better handling. No LSD? HAHA - what Lincoln has an LSD now? At least you could get Advanctrac in the LS and I did. The Z? Nope.
Of course there's a reason Mustang didn't use DEW-98. You can't sell a Mustang for the price of a Lincoln. Also, Ford decided to cheapen the heck out of the Mustang supension, not even putting in IRS. Speaking of which, BTW, a new Hyundai Mustang-killer out next year DOES have IRS. The new Camaro and Challenger? Ditto (I think).
I can't underestimate what I have no knowledge of. Except of course that "past may be prologue" and probably will be. Twin Force might be a good thing. But there are MANY negatives like Ford's inexperience building engines like this (and the complexity of the engine itself) will probably lead to HUGE maintenance issues and costs, it's still a V6 and many buyers in this range demand a V8, I doubt it will have much better milege than a modular V-8 incarnation. Heck, I used to get 28 on the highway in my Mark VIII. That was a 1993 engine.
I think maybe, Allen, you need to take off your Ford blinders and see what's really going on. Ford is dying and the cavalry is lost. I just saw the sales figures. Most everything is down, altho Crown Vic and Marquis are WAY up. The only thing up for Lincoln is the mkx, and that's cause they didnt sell em last year. The much-touted name change by the brilliant CEO has resulted in about an increase of 100 cars total this month adding 500, montego and freestyle so that's a complete failure. Now he wants to make all fords look the same around the world. THat's bordering on stupidity. WHO CARES if my Ford looks like the one I can buy in Indonesia? ANd the next new vehicle from FOrd, the Flex, is real questionalbe at best re finding a market for it. Meanwhile, GM has the CTS, the new Malibu, the Enclave, the G8 and on and on. Chrysler is probably doomed. All just this one man's opinion.

cruiser69

Well said big3forlife. Your idea is almost exactly the same as mine. I wish i knew what the real reason is behind the Big 2.5 not building what people want. Is it because there truly is a lack of design talent today? Or is it really about the bottom line among all other things? I guess we will never know.

Lincoln could be the true luxury turn around brand, but as what was stated before, you cant have a Ford salesman in a Lincoln dealership. If you have ever been to a Ford Lincoln Mercury service department, they are usually cold and uninviting. The service desk is usually annoyed with your presence and most make you wait a long time to schedule an appointment. If im going to spend 70 grand on a car, if Lincoln will ever ascend to that price range, i better be traded like i spent that much. I expect fancy service departments, clean and well dressed staff, staff that listens to all concerns with interest in what i am saying and try to find the solution together.

I also expect a clean, modern waiting area with complimentary refreshments and available loaner cars that are comparable to what i am driving. All i can say is, Lincoln better learn from Lexus.

akirby

The MKS may not be cheaper than the LS (comparing sticker to sticker) but I absolutely guarantee that Ford will make way more money on it. It's a cheaper platform with much higher volumes (the platform, not the MKS) and more expensive options. And they only need to sell 40K/yr. Should be a piece of cake.

The MKS is not Lincoln's end game. But it's the best they can do right now given the mismanagement of the last 7 years. At this point it's not about sales volumes - it's about profitability. I still think you're confusing vehicles you like with vehicles that can be sold at a profit and right now Ford and Lincoln need the latter.

The Flex and Lincoln's version are going to sell great. Again - they're not trying to sell 200K. Reduced production volumes keeps incentives relatively low and increases per unit profit. From that standpoint the MKX is doing well. The MKZ is actually up 6% over last year and the TC is only down because they stopped making them a few months ago to move production to STAP. They start again in January.

So instead of griping about what they're doing wrong - tell us what Lincoln should be doing.

lemko

"The LS was and probably will remain the best Lincoln ever built."

As far as I'm concerned, the best Lincoln ever built was the 1961-65 Continental. It was all downhill after that.

jeyhoe

"I still think you're confusing vehicles you like with vehicles that can be sold at a profit and right now Ford and Lincoln need the latter. "

There's the rub - I need the former.

In answer to your last question: "Build world class competitive vehicles that increase the cachet of FoMoCo and that people want and need." As I sit here idly thinking about it, I'm having trouble naming one Ford product that meets my simple spec.

jeyhoe

Those Continentals were fantastic cars in many ways. Looks and cachet were unmatched. But they were not driver's cars as the LS is (was). They were not cars that could run with a Beemer of the day.
But I agree, they were great and they carry HUGE weight when one thinks of what a Lincoln is and should be. Unfortunately, the powers that be at Ford eschewed a beautiful concept that modernized the best of those Continentals and could have been a seriously beautiful and , if it had a world-clss platform (stretched DEW-98?), could have been what a Lincoln should be. But Noooooooooooooo.

akirby

In other words - you'll know it when you see it. Got it.

Which other vehicles meets your simple spec right now?

jkr2106

Even $36k isn't expensive by BMW standards.
BMW sells a ton of 328is w/ vinyl.
I agree, but I was only disputing you're comment that other luxury brands have cars in the low 30s to draw people into the brand when, in actuality, most from BMW at least, are over $40K and the lowest is hardly "low 30s".

If Lincoln wants to go alphanumeric, they should go MK3, MK5, MK7 etc.
...or at least not expect us to say "Mark Z" or have they changed their mind on that again? But why would they want to (publicly) copy BMW? All that would do is tell buyers we have an inferiority complex with BMW because they are better. So what would be the incentive to buying a Lincoln?

I have to agree w/ britishrover. I don't think most crossover buyers car whether the car is RWD or FWD biased.
Maybe Probably not. My position is just that a FWD crossover would not fit well in a RWD lineup. For starters, FoMoCo has these 3 core brands that need to be well differentiated, and not just a trim level of one another. How can you accomplish enough differentiation if you put 3 crossovers on the same platform? You can't and end up with a setup like the Fusion/Milan/MKZ which are all nice, but much too similar. Secondly, R/A/4WD will always command a premium over FWD. Lincoln should be the premium brand, so they should get the premium platform. Finally, the automotive press and enthusiasts love the driving experience of RWD baised drivetrains, and Lincoln will need all the acclaim it can garner.

Lincoln is not in the position to be complacent. They need to churn out no excuses vehicles and not just something that the majority will be okay with; we need Lincoln's everyone has to have.

Most crossover buyers would be coming out of FWD cars anyway.
link, please?

british_rover

I have to agree w/ britishrover. I don't think most crossover buyers car whether the car is RWD or FWD biased.
Maybe Probably not. My position is just that a FWD crossover would not fit well in a RWD lineup. For starters, FoMoCo has these 3 core brands that need to be well differentiated, and not just a trim level of one another. How can you accomplish enough differentiation if you put 3 crossovers on the same platform? You can't and end up with a setup like the Fusion/Milan/MKZ which are all nice, but much too similar. Secondly, R/A/4WD will always command a premium over FWD. Lincoln should be the premium brand, so they should get the premium platform. Finally, the automotive press and enthusiasts love the driving experience of RWD baised drivetrains, and Lincoln will need all the acclaim it can garner.


If you asked 100 crossover owners, man I hate that term too it is the definition of a catch all, to tell you what the torque split of their vehicle was the majority would ask you what the hell torque split was.

Almost every Japanese and domestic crossover is FWD biased because they are based on the car platforms that those automakers have. All the german ones are RWD biased because they are based on the car platforms that the germans have.

The most popular luxury SUV is still the Lexus RX which is not only FWD biased but is sold in FWD only form too. The RX doesn't even send power to the rear wheels unless the fronts start to spin a fair amount. It has one of the worst reactive based AWD systems I have driven. It does get decent mileage though since 99 percent of the power is going to the front wheels 99 percent of the time.

jeyhoe

""Build world class competitive vehicles that increase the cachet of FoMoCo and that people want and need."

What vehicles meet my simple spec, Allen asks? I said none that I could think of by Ford. Some *may* say the Mustang and in some ways I might agree (though nobody really NEEDS a Mustang :>). But if we change Fomoco to GM, there are a number of vehicles that come immediately to mind. I mentioned some of them elsewhere today but no harm doing so again:

The 2008 Cadillac CTS. Without question the best American sports sedan available. MT COTY. C&D one of 10 best. Etc
Chevy Corvette. Just about any years
2008 Chevy Malibu. The rave reviews are amazing, saying things like "Even better than GM says it is." for example. It's badge-engineered cousins are pretty good too. Wasn't Saturn Aura COTY last year?
Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook. Bigger, more powerful, seat more and better gas mileage that the 5 passenger Ford xovers.
Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky.
2008 Chevy Tahoe hybrid. Called a better hybrid system than Toyota uses. Codesigned with BMW. Gets 20mpg city which is DOUBLE what my Navigator gets.

And I will mention the Chrysler 300, the new 4door Jeep Wrangler and their minivans as examples from that company.

But Ford? Maybe Mustang. That's it.

jkr2106

If you asked 100 crossover owners, man I hate that term too it is the definition of a catch all, to tell you what the torque split of their vehicle was the majority would ask you what the hell torque split was.
agreed

Almost every Japanese and domestic crossover is FWD biased because they are based on the car platforms that those automakers have. All the german ones are RWD biased because they are based on the car platforms that the germans have.
I understand your reasoning, but the fact is that German crossovers command higher prices. So, the American consumer at least percieves these rear-biased crossovers as more prestigeous. Again, I'm not saying get rid of the FWD crossovers, but I'd rather see Lincoln competing with Mercedes not Lexus; leave Mercury to do that. Also, the ones that are RWD biased (Infiniti FX and EX, Cadillac SRX) are obviously more sporty and less appliancey (like a Lexus or Acura).

The most popular luxury SUV is still the Lexus RX which is not only FWD biased but is sold in FWD only form too. The RX doesn't even send power to the rear wheels unless the fronts start to spin a fair amount.
The RX doen't compete in the serious luxury arena dominated by Mercedes and BMW; the Lexus brand just isn't there yet and the RX is near-luxury (where I want Mercury to be). Sales don't mean much; how many Rolls-Royce's were sold last month? I bet Toyota sold more!

akirby

the fact is that German crossovers command higher prices. So, the American consumer at least percieves these rear-biased crossovers as more prestigeous.

No way, no how. Do you really think they even know whether their crossover is FWD or RWD based? I think all they know is it's a Mercedes or a BMW. The cachet is in the brand, not the drivetrain setup.