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Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier
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A lower stance wouldn't hurt either.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Obvioulsy, due to the lower redline of the Si, you won't get the same results, but even 10HP isn't bad for a ~$400 bolt-on you can install yourself. I get the feeling there's a bunch of potential to get power out of the K-series engines...
Honda is going to lose the budget performance crowd if it doesn't do something like this. Especially since so many car companies have finally caught on and are about to try and spoil the party.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think the big mistake Honda made with the current Si was pricing. Anyone who knows the Si knows it's not a "premium" car, it's just a Civic, except with a bit more (more power, more swaybars, more potential) and the price reflects that. The 99-00 Si cost only a little more than an EX with auto and ABS.
With this Si Honda seems to have wanted it both ways- they gave it relatively modest engine output and put underwhelming wheels/tires on it because they figured everyone would mod it anyway, but then wanted a price for the car that's comparable to what other companies are asking for what are effectively pre-modded cars.
From what I've seen and heard it's still a fine car. All those people complaining about the power and wheels and suspension and whatnot should look at the same- it says "Si", *not* "Type-R". What you're asking for is an R, not an Si. For 16-17K it's a steal in the fine Si tradition. For 19K it's a bad joke.
I paid just over $16K for a loaded EX a few years back which was only a so-so deal then, and the car hasn't gotten significantly better since.
Maybe they are only more reliable because there is nothing on them to break. (just kidding)
$16k w/ tax for an LX is still a little too much. I hope for the sake of your friend he didn't pay $16k before taxes! You can get an LX for that price.
What's the alternative to a Civic LX?? Corolla will be priced similarly if not more. If you don't count Korean cars, you are left w/ either base Jettas, Focuses, Proteges or Sentras. People who like Hondas do not usually cross-shopped. These are the people who are fed-up w/ the other cars listed and only trust Honda. At times blindly. I'm one of them.
With the exception of the S2000, Honda is no longer selling steak. They're selling the sizzle.
It's simple - bring excitement back to Honda, or cut all prices 10% across the board.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm speculating that Honda may pull in the redesign of the Civic by one year, to the Fall of 04. Hopefully Honda has realized that dull but reliable cars are no longer the rage.
As other carmakers have taken strides to approach Honda's levels of engineering, content and price, Honda has been willing to sit by and quietly normalize (reduce) the content of its cars releative to the prevailing market prices.
Others:
Focus - Best selling car in Europe. Super cheap and best handling among the *cheap* cars. Unfortunately, in the US, UAW botched this up. Quality is very different from those sold in Europe.
Protege - At least $2k less than a Civic EX. Again, relatively cheaper and better equipped. However, ties w/ Ford make Mazda not as desirable as a Honda or Toyota
Sentra - Again, cheaper than Civic EX but offer a lot more HP. Built quality is typical Nissan. Not counting SpecV of course since we are not comparing the SI.
All of these cars are 4 door sedan. Stop thinking just Neons and Cavaliers please. They are other manuf. besides Honda.
Civic EX and Corolla Le at $14K sticker apiece would be a bargain - would people still buy all those Hyundais that are currently leaving lots? I think a lot less would. Mazda and Nissan would be in big trouble too. And Chevy, and Ford...
SI is a niche car - very few out there like it, so its price can be higher, but on the order of $16,500, not $19K.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
When you pay more for a Civic you are not only paying for the features and content, you are also paying for the refinement, safety and durability that Honda is known for. Those things can't be measured or counted until you use the five star rating in a crash or until you turn 150,000 miles and the interior still looks like new. It's not all about who has a cd player nd who doesn't.
Sticker price is just meant as point of reference. If it will make you feel better, you can substitute in the phrase "invoice price" or "what people pay for them" or whatever you like, wherever you see "sticker price". They will change proportionally, and keep the same positions relative to each other.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
From what I've heard, in most ways the latest Civics are more refined than mine. Torquier, quieter engines, less cabin noise, more rigid structure, tighter panel gaps, etc.
The latest Civic screams "cheap" louder than a baby bird.
LX models have always had drum brakes and EX models have had drum brakes in non ABS models since 1991.
The diameter of the wheels have very little to do with refinement. Especially in cars of this size. What's the real difference in a Civic LX that's to be used as a commuter car? It's not running the slalom.
I'll be the first to admit the latest Civic is a letdown compared to the previous versions but I still can't think of any of it's contemporaries that I would rather purchase.
Refinement is how the controls work, how the clicks click and the beeps beep. Hondas ergonomics are some of the best (except the sunroof switch) ad the controls from the clutch to the turn signal stalk draw raves.
It's all about actual vs. perceived value. Take a careful look at both the Civic and Protege (not a Ford product in any way) and tell me again why you'd rather drive the Civic.
I can't tell you why I'd rather drive a Civic cause I wouldn't rather drive one. But I still recognize it's one of the best cars in its class.
Presumably, Honda would like me to buy a bloated 03 Accord (subjective comment, no offense meant to those who like the looks). Too big for me. I tried the CR-V, but it too has lots of road noise.
The Civic 5 door would be perfect, especially if it was reasonably quiet.
I've never actually never driven a "regular" 2001+ Civic. But I do remember about a year ago when I owned another economy car and I sat in a Civic LX 5-speed sedan. You could hear the smoothness in the engine compared to the car I owned, the way the gears snicked between gears, where the switches were .. it was all the way I think a car in it's class should feel.
And if you look at the Corolla it has a non-independent rear suspension. The Sentra has an axle. The Protege uses harder plastics than the Civic and it's not as safe, the Jetta is expensive and doesn't have an independent rear suspension, then you go to Neons, Cavaliers, and the Korean makes. All cars in this class have flaws. You can't get a "perfect" car for $15,000 anymore.
Non-Si Civics have always had rear drum brakes,
and at best 14" wheels. Yes those are cost-cutting measures, but Hello?! this is a cost-cutting segment. Those features are perfectly acceptable on a lightweight commuter car which doesn't pretend to be a high-performance vehicle.
Anyone who complains about "obvious cost-cutting" in the Civic is (IMO) either ignorant or delusional. They either refuse to see where others cut costs even more obviously, or have the notion that somehow Honda can produce a $14K luxury car.
I think the car is a letdown as well, for the following reasons: (the first 2 are concrete, the next 2 are personal taste)
-the odd-behaving and sometimes unpleasant rear suspension
-the failure to increase power. Non-Si Civics have been stuck at a max of 127hp for 10 years now. The world has moved on, the Civic has not. (what power the Civic does have seems to be smoother, cleaner, quieter than everyone else, but still)
-unpleasant styling, on both the sedan and coupe. The 6th gen looked classy, the sedan was an attractive mini-Accord and the coupe looked more upscale than it was. The 7th gen is awkward, the sedan is unpleasant front, rear and sides while the unbalanced overhangs on the coupe make it look like a schoolbus.
-tacky, pretentious interior. The interior of the 6th gen is plastic, but it's good quality plastic that fits well and looks nice, nicer even than Camry's, Maxima's and Pathfinder's I've had to sit in. The 7th gen commits the sin of trying to not look like plastic- it uses IMO the worst interior material in the world, chrome-colored hard plastic. (I pity folks who buy the "titanium-look trim" interior piece option for the Civic-derived RSX. They pay a large premium to make their car look cheap and tacky.)
I also had to have the dealer fix the driver door because it had a big gap between the top of the door and the roof of the car. Easily fixed, but still...
A lesser problem is that all the competition has added power. The lowest-trim Corolla now has more power (as well as torque and displacement) than the Civic EX. Where the Civic used to be one of the most powerful economy cars, now it is one of the least.
Put the two together and it looks like Honda just isn't trying very hard, that they've given up on a significant part of what made the Civic the best economy car - the "fun to drive" element.
I don't think you can ever safely say "that's as good as this segment will ever need". Engineering is always getting better, cars are getting better and if you stand still someone will sell a better, cheaper car than you and eat your lunch. You start thinking "an economy car doesn't need more than 127hp" and you've become mid-80's GM or mid-90's Nissan- "We don't need to improve our cars, we just need to make 'em cheaper" is *not* a viable strategy. Honda rose to prominance in the 80's by making *better* (with very competitive hp #'s) cars, not by making adequate cars, and the Civic is no longer trying to be better it's trying to be adequately good.
That's why I think the lack of power in the Civic is a definite mistake.
I agree the Civic could be alot more than what it is. But as it is it is still better than most economy cars in most of the areas that most shoppers want. It is a very safe, historically very reliable, very efficient car that will get you to work and back for years to come with barely a sniffle.
As for those hp figures, it's worth remembering that the *best*, most expensive (non Si) Civic puts out 127hp. Other trim levels have less.
And enough is what buyers decide is enough, not what some arbitrary outside observer says is enough. That smacks of Naderism. I'm sure there are people somewhere who think 80hp and a 3 speed auto (like my first car, *shudder*) is more than enough for cars.
Honda needs to put the Si engine into the Civic sedan and go SE-R/MP3 hunting.
Unfortunately I can't seem to find a price for a used 2002 yet. What is appropriate for this one?I am thinking is should go for less than $16K. Of course then I might have trouble getting top dollar trade in for my 97 Del Sol.
Do not pay that much unless you _must_ have the car and have truly exhuasted all other options.