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I am a lawyer but this is only general suggestions, not specific to any one individual or claim.
First, it is always best to get advice from a lawyer in your jurisdiction. Laws vary in each state, and a lawyer can explain what law is applicable to your claim, whether you have a good case, how best to pursue it, etc.
For most depax claims, you will be near or well within the small claims limit. That means in most instances your case will be heard informally by a judge (see my prior posting on this subject). However, its very important to have your legal argument well prepared. That means you can't just say Honda and Michelin ripped me off, or that pax is scam.
When I file my small claim in the future, I will argue that Honda/Michelin violated my state's consumer protection statute by failing to disclose material (meaning important) facts about the pax system, including cost of replacement and low-mile tread wear. Every state has a consumer protection statute, just google that term and your state.
That search will also likely tell you about consumer protection groups in your state. They may be able to give you guidance in how to prepare your case.
In most states discovery is not allowed in small claims. If your state allows discovery, you want to ask Honda/Michelin to produce all documents and information that discuss pax cost and limitations. Problem is that for a small case judge will likely limit what you can ask for. I think it would be helpful to have Honda/Michelin produce the sales and marketing material on pax during the year you purchased your vehicle. We know it says nothing about the well-documented issue on cost and treadwear. You can also print out info from the internet, which a judge may or may not allow. Generally, a judge will be more open to credible sources (for example, a trade journal article on pax problems, v. ranting by a customer on this board).
On costs if you lose, generally loser does not pay in the US especially for smaller claims (which is a big subject on tort reform). HOWEVER, laws vary by state so before you file, make sure to check with the court clerk and ask if losing party pays costs. If they refuse to answer, get legal advice on that within your state.
Don
Thank you again.
Don
I have a 07’ Sienna Limited AWD (Purchased with 7,000 miles in 2008). the van has 23k miles on the van and same on the tires) I completely blew it on the rotating tire schedule (I learned my lesson). I now have two shot front RFT OEM tires and 2 pretty good rear tires with tons of tread.
I am having trouble deciding my next move. I have visited 3 tire stores to get some advice
Costco they don’t do run flats but could put on 4 nice all season Michelins for $600+.
Les Schwab who advised only run flats and only 4 tires at $1,000.
Discount Tires, can do 2 run flats and rotate the used RFT to the front and put new ones in the back (around $400.
Is this a really bad Idea or just "not ideal"
I am hoping folks using this forum have some experience in this give me your two cents as far as moving forward.
Check your tire pressure weekly. Low pressure is your enemy. Check for uneven wear, this would idicate an alignment problem.
If you have to replace them, I'd probably opt for the run flats since you can have them repaired at most tire shops. Question, do you have a jack, tools, and a spare? If so, then going with less costly conventional tires is an option too. But $400 for 2 tires out the door is about the norm these days.
I will probably end up PAX free in the not too distant future....how much did the Acura wheels and BF tires run - all linstalled? Curious. And who did it for you? Honda Dealer, someone else? I own my Odyssey.
Many thanks,
Katonah
As for who installed them, Gene's Tire in Liberty, Mo. I had kind of a hard time finding someone to work with me, everyone was afraid of Honda lawsuits, including Gene's at first. I was hesitant to buy them from tirerack because their local installers here were either expensive or seemed to be incompetent. Anyway, I am just glad this is finally over.
Don
You can go Go Flat tires but are you ready to handle flat tire situation without spare. Do you plan to buy spare tire along with regular tires.
Krzys
I missed that nugget of info....23k, no rotation....could be a problem, but it depends on just how bad they are. You need an honest tire tech to advise you. My other comments still stand.
Good luck!
How can it indicate tire pressure ok with readings from only one of them ? thanks much.
a. The dealership does not have to disclose anything unless they are doing some PR campaign and do it in good will;
b. They didn't fail to disclose because the information was most likely available on the Internet;
c. This particular statute is usually applied to used cars and not to a standard features on the new cars.
I can appeal within one week with $500 bond. Any suggestions?
After many headaches and hundreds of dollars spent on tires and years of dealing with the tires, we finally got fed up with the JUNK PAX tires, that we all got sold after buying the VAN for almost $40K. (you would expect at least a good set of tires)
Bought some RIMs from a local tire dealer, with the following Specs:
RIMS: 17" Alloy's with Offset: +42mm, Bolt Pattern: 5-120
Tires: hankook optimo h727 225/60R17 80,000 mile tires
Removed the tires sensor's (I cut the tires myself...it felt good)
Inflated the tires with nitrogen at 35psi Front and 37psi Rear.
Van rides and turns like is on rails, no more harsh ride, no more weird vibrations from the tires getting off balance, because of the gel pax.
Very Happy Camper!!!!!
PS: still waiting for Michelin to refund us some kind of $ for all the money we spent on crappy tires.
Also having a hard time finding the PAX APPROVED SPARE TIRE KIT see link:
http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/AI/AJA41932.pdf
I was told to call this number to order 1800-999-1009, I can't believe they want $250 for a stupid spare donut tire. Honda/Michelin is only paying for $110 on the Class action Suit settlement I think that's BS.
I will report when I get the Spare tire
I installed a set of standard EX wheels on my Ody, new Touring TPMS sensors...did it for less than $700. Found a spare in the junk yard for $20. All you need is the correct spare tire size, this is standard size.
Good luck and welcome to the de-Pax club!
If so, please provide details as to what you presented to the judge and how much money you received from Honda/Michelin.
Thanks.
Now I see that my fears were pretty spot on. Sorry to all of you, best of luck in dePAXing.
BTW, we bought a Mazda 5 (microvan). Less room inside, but barely half the price and a blast to drive! Then we bought a 2004 Ody used. Both vehicles for about the price of the Touring + DePAX!
Happy Holidays to all!!
Don't read me wrong, as I indicated we ended up buying a new Mazda 5 for about $23K and then a used 2004 Ody for about $18K. So for about $41K we purchased TWO cars, including the previous model Ody, that we would have paid for the original Touring we were looking at -- for about the same price.
We really like the 04 Ody but are surprised at how tinny it is compared to our previous Mercury Villager. But we did avoid the whole PAX situation. And my 17yo daughter now drives the Mazda.
Thanks much!
As has been stated, PAX and run flats are miles apart and you should be able to mount up a go-flat tire onto your existing rims with little issue. You WILL need to get a spare. This is a five year old van with 60K on it already and you are concerned about resale?
Yes, Minnesota does get some snow in the winter and I thought it might be a prudent investment for my wife and kids to have the AWD...
Thanks.
The Michelin PAX tires that Honda uses have a cage on the rim inside the tire that supports the tire when the air is lost. Special rims and tire mounting equipment is required to get the tires on and off the rims over the cage. Special rims and mounting equipment + low volume product = big bucks for replacing the tires. And the rubber compound that is used for the PAX tires is such that many users wear the tires out quickly.
I owned four Odysseys from 2001-2009 and two of them were PAX equipped. I bought the first one without knowing about the problems with PAX and I bought the second because I was confident that Honda would do the right thing. Shame on you Honda.
So, Honda won't have the opportunity to replace one of my four cars every year...
So we opted to change to a regilar tire system, and they installed for about $1500. La di dah--they are the wrong rims, because the pretty cover on the calipers in front say ACURA, but they are being scraped because of the close tolerance, and THAT CAN"T BE SAFE.
I'm so glad that I believe in prayer. Jim in Stockton, CA
Dealer said I probably damaged rim over a pot hole (yes, I live in NY) so no surprise. Road Hazard coverage covers it. ONLY caveat is I lay out $ first, and they reimburse. So far, the Honda parts manager and I fine-tune combed through ALL the small print, front and back. and we see no reason why I would not be reimbursed. He is putting all his prior-approval on it and because I am having it replaceda at a Honda dealership, it will most likely not encounter and obstacles if I tried to do this anywhere else. We'll see. The warranty last five years, I rotate tires, and so far so good. Treading is wearing well. I replace 2 at a time when needed. We have the tire and wheel warranty for 5 years...so when that is done, I will depax out of them to Elbrus rims (17") IO5 and Kuhmo tires...all weather - about $90 a tire and rims are about $126, keeping same TPMS, and order new valve assemblies for the tires. I check all my technical questions and bounce EVERYTHING Honda tells me (take nothing for granted) at the College Hills Honda DePax helpd center!! http://www.diyhonda.com/2008/07/podcast-episode-131-honda-odyssey-depax.html.
You can go to their collegehills honda website and check all this out. Ask for PAUL in parts as he is the voice on the DIY video for depaxing, etc. GREAT guy and so smart beyond Honda in general.
And lastly, before I take any trips, rotate and I'm ordering a spare PAX tire to keep with me at all times!
Good luck and I'll be checking in....DePax free IS worry free for sure. It CAN be done.
1) Do the 16” or 17” wheels make any difference (in performance or speedometer readings)?
2) I was going to stick with the 16” 9 spoke Honda wheels, but noticed someone also went with the 2009 Acura TL 17" wheels – any issues here? Any other wheel favorites?
3) Seems like 50/50 on using old sensors vs. new.
4) Any benefit to keeping old wheels/tires (as option) for resale down the road – do not seem to be worth anything on ebay?
5) Any other tips/tricks/hints to get to reliable/quality ride?
Thanks for advice – looking forward to getting out of this mess.
Also got a spare from a salvage yard, but make sure its compatible and that also takes a fair amount of hunting and luck.
Thanks for info on getting 40 and then 20. That'll be a nice post to use in my upcoming trial against Honda/Michelin/dealer.
One last note on ride. Since we went conventional, no issues except at speeds above 65-70, some vibration in steeting wheel, also when braking at high speeds. Balancing issue, I need to bring it in. Even if they can't fix, small price to pay for PAX-free.