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2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not true, they put a 6-speed manual in the Outback. Soob is just super slow to update its cars mechanically. They like to keep the Impreza line cheap. But I'm sure the reason they have delayed introducing the new WRX is because they were waiting on the 2.0 turbo to be ready.
It will be a great shame if they offer a CVT AT ALL with the WRX. The CVT-only issue with the Forester XT will hopefully limit sales enough to convince them to introduce the manual in that model too. As for me, I can't imagine what would ever persuade me to buy a car with a CVT, by far the least tolerable of its automatic breed.
The thing that kinda sucks about Subaru these days is they are beginning to succumb to Toyota-itis and Mazda-itis: the only manual available is on the cheap stripped trim line of each model. This is evident in the new Impreza - none of the Limited trims have a manual available. It's also true of the Outback. Now the Forester XT is the next evidence of that. I was counting on Subaru to hold the line against the onslaught on manuals, but apparently the accounting department has begun to take control there too... :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That makes me nauseous - that anyone would accept a CVT - perhaps the worst transmission choice for any real enthusiast on the planet - to get their butt in a Subaru Forester?? And you are questioning my definition of driver engagement? There are manual transmission bicycles I'd rather ride 55 miles to work than be stuck with a CVT anything. Even Edmunds in the pre-release review voices their disgust:
"Sluggish CVT saps some of the driving fun from turbo model."
Nissan had a good thing going with my old 1995 Maxima SE 5-speed manual. It actually was a pretty decent "4 door sports car" at the time, with a reasonable 3,000 lb curb weight, sport suspension, free revving V6 and real manual transmission. It beat out the BMW 328i for Car of the Year awards in 1995. Then they got too cute and decided people would rather make audio sounds of shifting rather than row their own and eliminated the manual and automatic in favor of a god forsaken CVT. They got exactly what they deserved - sales dropped by well over 80% and instead of being cross shopped against BMW, they were cross shopped against Buicks and Oldsmobiles. It isn't considered an enthusiast's car by grandmothers. This was arguably one of the biggest examples of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory in recent automotive history.
Now I'm doubly nauseous. Yeah, long commutes in traffic jams are a pain, regardless of what you are driving. But either you need to work out more or just get a different attitude if you think the left leg muscle saving indignity of driving a rubber band CVT is going to make that clogged commute any more fun. And when the road in front opens up, all you have to enjoy it with is a "sluggish CVT" in the words of Edmunds (and any of the few million suckers that are stuck driving the abhorrences).
My 5'1" wife, all 105lbs of her, drove 105k miles through the streets of DC from 1996 to 2005 in an Isuzu Trooper 5-speed manual. Everything about our 2005 MDX made her happy, other than the unresponsive mushy automatic transmission. Everything about our 2012 X5d makes her happy, including the much more responsive automatic transmission....except, had known that I also was considering a Cayenne V6 6-speed manual she would have probably arm wrestled me to get it. Maybe even won, as it was a tough choice.
Perhaps you need to do a few more push ups or leg presses. Or just get a better attitude. Driving in a traffic jam with a manual transmission is no big deal. Really, really. But getting a CVT transmission and then having a sluggish car all the time is just plain pitiful.
I am not sure what is also on your shopping list besides a Subaru Forrestor, but if they are going to shove a CVT down your throat, maybe I'm not the only one that should be feeling nauseous right now.
Perhaps I am mis-remembering, but I though you referenced cars.com when I asked for your source of nationwide vehicle inventories that you were often quoting relative o nationwide dealer inventories of various makes and models in other posts/forums.
What I have found in my Porsche shopping is that many (50%+) Porsche dealers do not have their current inventories listed on cars.com period, and of those that do, a similar 50% can't seem to call the PDK an automatic and leave the 7 speed manual description to the 7-speed manual transmission.
If you were getting your inventories form another source, my mistake. And I didn't see you specifically quote manuals vs. automatics, but just in case, don't use cars.com.
I bet you get some false positives though, since there's likely someone categorizing the cars by hand back at the dealer, and they may not know how best to categorize it. That's probably the same issue you found with cars.com.
And when you find one, like a base Cayenne, the only way to verify that it's a manual (other than calling about it), is to hope they have a photo of the shift lever.
Can't get a direct link to work, so you'll have to drill down on your own if you want to play with it.
I don't see a problem with offering the CVT as an OPTION in a WRX. Frankly the take rate on manuals for the Forester XT were horrible, well under 10%. But yes, i would like to see a manual OPTION for that also. I really think choice is a good idea if it can be done feasibly, because it has the potential to expand the customer base.
Frankly, expecting a model to be clutch-pedal only almost sounds snobbish to me.
I remember driving a 2004 XT with the manual, and WOW! That thing was quick. Car & Driver hit 60mph in 5.4 seconds.
That was the most shocking test drive I ever took. I knew it was quick, but MAN was it quick!
Biggest complaint was range. With ultra short gearing, a smallish gas tank at the time (it got bigger for 2009), and the way it encouraged you to drive ... well. You can imagine.
Now that Subaru downsized to a 2l turbo, but added DI, and with the potential for a 6 speed manual, I'd like to see them try again. Fuel efficiency is better, and the gas tank is bigger now, gear it right and the take rate will be much higher.
I fully respect that some people may have physical handicaps that prevent them from driving a stick. Or preferences that result in their choosing not to drive a stick. That's a personal need or choice. But when it's suggested to me that I'm the one at fault for not agreeing that flipping paddles or pushing buttons on a CVT is just as engaging as rowing your own, I can't idly agree. You turned your physical limitation into a debate about "engaging" "sporty" and "better", not me.
For what it's worth, I played a softball game on Labor Day weekend, 2011, that made it on Nightly News. And humbled me for life. I won't tell you who I am in the video, but playing against guys like Greg Reynolds is perhaps why I don't give much credibility to able-bodied drivers that proclaim to be enthusiasts but contend driving a stick in traffic is too hard.
Wounded Warriors Softball
Sorry about your knee. If you need a good orthopedic surgeon, I have one on my speed dial. If not, I wish you the best on whatever you decide to drive. Really.
Maybe you'd better think about your level of respect for others if you expect some for yourself. Because frankly you do act like one of those "old school purists" who simply look down upon new technologies. Which means the people you're looking down upon are not going to treat you very well in return.
And that folks, is the topic of discussion.
It really isn't rosier. Between advances in technologies, and the fact that Americans generally prefer automatics, you have to work with what the market will accept. Plus, like I said, manuals have fewer advantages than they did before, and the take rate wasn't all that high on them previously.
Frankly DCTs and CVTs haven't caught on widely in the US either, there seems to be a very strong preference for slushboxes. It's just a matter of culture, Asia loves CVTs for the most part. Europe was a bastion for the manual transmission but is shifting to DCT, and that doesn't bode will for the clutch-pedal style manual.
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Beside the Audi DSG (have owned one, just bought another), I recently drove a 2013 Boxster S with PDK and in both cases these gearboxes simply blow away the old manual clutch arrangement. Speed, economy, convenience. Finally a car I can enjoy on the open road and slip into 'D' mode for the downtown gridlock. And it is a full-on manual, controlled by your fingers -- no torque converter, no surprise downshifts in a corner.
I like the old three pedal cars, but they're kind of like rotary telephones. I know how to use one, but there really is no point.
And yeah I know cars are too tech'ed out now, but if I hear one more guy in his ABS, traction control, drive-by-wire, direct injection, stability control, etc., -equipped car tell me he needs three pedals so he can feel in control... seriously, for the love of pete...
Well there's the problem. I don't care about any of those things particularly, when I drive....I don't care how fast I can shift, I don't really quibble about 1 or 2 mpg, and convenience is the last thing on my mind.
Shifting with your left foot and your right hand is more fun than pushing buttons.
why do people still ride horses (at great expense I might add)? For speed, economy or convenience?
Of course not--there is an elemental experience to it.
why do they paddle canoes? I mean, why not use a jet-ski?
I keep a manual transmission to BE retro and behind the times and primitive---that's the whole point! :P
You may be in the wrong forum thread. :shades:
I happen to agree with you, my predicament is that I only really have parking for one car, and the thought of insuring two cars doesn't excite me when I'm one person. My car needs to do everything I might ask of it, and I can't play with a clutch pedal all that long before my knee starts giving me trouble...and an hour commute is all that long and then some.
On the other hand, one can still have a blast driving with two pedals, with a properly dialed in DCT or automatic, or a really REALLY well-programmed CVT.
I know people start 'poo poo'ing that notion, but an AWD Juke with the CVT in manual mode is an absolute blast, and the thing performs its simulated "shifts" instantly.
No one can tell me a Mazda3 isn't fun, even with the slushbox. Which, being a Mazda slushbox, isn't actually slushy at all, it's very crisp.
And of course, if someone wants to call the VW GTI with the DSG "not fun" or "not engaging" I think the Farfegnugen-ites might want to take that person around back for a few kind words. :shades:
I do find that I have a preference for a +/- gate on the shifter versus paddles. Just something cathartic about that lever. Though granted paddles are much more convenient, and keep both hands on the wheel. And either one is better than those silly toggles that they put on shifter heads. Almost as silly: putting the manual gate on the RIGHT, moving the shifter AWAY from the driver for manual shifting. Hyundai does this, and it's dumb.
As far as speed, economy and convenience, I'll concede those don't apply to a lot of cars I like (would kill for a Ferrari Daytona...), but among consumers who buy cars I think you'll find almost everyone values those, various order of priority, more than "being primitive". I also love classic cars -- saw a stunning Merc 280 SL on the freeway yesterday -- but again, that's a niche, not a new car market.
DCTs are probably the best of he auto transmissions, but they are still not a manual, you can still find yourself in the wrong gear at the wrong time ( not that you can't with a manual, but then it's your own fault, not the cars). Also it seems despite the EPA ratings showing autos( of many cars) getting better fuel economy, real world results often seem to be the other way around. In any case I won't look down on anyone for buying an automatic, but will contine to drive a real manual when it is offered on the car I like while I still can ( and at least up here in Canada we can get more models at higher trim levels with a manual).
While I agree that the PDK is an impressive auto-manual transmission and infinitely superior to the old 5-speed Tiptronic (i.e. "Chick-tronic") that it replaces, I also agree that for those that really enjoy "rowing your own" it's not going to replace the satisfaction of having a manual transmission.
The Porsche event was for a small group (15 +/-) and I took along my brother who has private driving privileges at this track. When the other attendees saw us pull up in his Ferrari 430, they all kind of did a "nice car" flip of their hat. But when a couple of the Porsche racing team instructors saw that it was a (rare) 6-speed manual transmission, they practically hi-jacked the car at the end of the event to get a hot lap with my brother at the wheel (he's a former BMW race team driver). Everything gets turned off - ABS, traction control, stability control. The grins that were plastered on the faces of the Porsche drivers as they climbed out of the passenger seat were every bit as wide as those that came out of the rest of us after a hot lap in the 911S.
You can state your personal preference for a PDK or DSG or manual or 2-speed automatic and no one should hold that against you anymore than challenging your preference for salmon over steak. But the insistence of some who prefer the new PDK or DSG automatic technology on trying to further justify their preference to the world by maintaining that a PDK or DSG is just as involved or engaging or fun for the next guy?? That's unnecessary. And for many, incorrect.
Just drive what you like and don't try proclaim it as something it isn't. I like salmon, but I don't feel compelled to try to promote it as a steak to red meat lovers.
P.S. This post wasn't meant to be directed at Billymay or anyone else in particular, more the forum in general.
CVTs tend to be faster than anything else. There's ZERO shifting and the engine is always at the ideal RPM. It's not a matter of being sporty, because they are when you look at the numbers. They just don't feel sporty in their default mode, they're rather blah and drone-y, you don't get that sensation of the engine climbing in RPMs and taking you along with it.
That's why fake "gears" are popular, Honda includes them by default actually. And just like a slushbox, implementation matters: some will shift really fast and crisply, others you might wonder why they even bothered. As I've mentioned, I'm impressed with Nissan and Subaru CVTs, they're programmed to implement manual shifts in a very sporty manner (when present anyway). Haven't tried the Honda one yet, and frankly probably won't because I hate the local Honda dealer.
Uhh, this is a little contradictory. I happen to agree with the basic concept you start off with here, but when you get to the part of "justifying their preference to the world" how is someone maintaining their choice of whatever transmission is fun any different from a manual transmission fan maintaining that their transmission choice is fun?
For some real fun we can rag on kayakers and how having an extra blade makes them wimps. (Twice the paddle, half the man, as the saying goes). And don't get me started on stand-up paddleboards - I've been doing that in open canoes for 35 years.
Different strokes. :shades:
In the big rig world, there's lots of reasons given for switching to automatics, but one I didn't expect to see was this one:
"Straight truck and vocational segments are trending toward fully automatic transmissions, a trend that may in part be the result of the automobile industry not producing many manual-equipped vehicles, ultimately reducing the opportunity for drivers to learn the concept of manual shifting." (Fleet Owner)
Is the jet-ski a manual, or an automatic? :shades:
In effect if your joke is true, the same man can go twice as far, etc.
I have driven the mazda3 with the automatic and will say that compared to the stick it is not fun.
I suppose the next thing will be cars that have push button steering. Push for left or right and let the computer execute the turn. Traditionalists will be lambasted for preferring to turn themselves - after all the computer can execute a more efficient turn.
There is no comparison between abs, power brakes etc and a manual transmission. The manual transmission requires involvement, the others operate in the background.
As far as autos being faster and more efficient - jury is still out. Autos have certainly closed the gap, but look at an Accord stick - nearly a second faster to 60 than the CVT, same with Mazda 3 and most others (Porsche is rare exception). When actually geared for economy the stick still beats automatics for mpg - VW TDI, Mazda CX-5 and Chevy Cruze eco are good examples. In addition real world mpg shows that sticks usually beat epa estimates handily.
Here is one more thing. Texting while driving is a problem. I will never let my kids drive an automatic because they will be too tempted to text. With a manual they need to use both hands while in the city (where they drive).
You know, one of those things that let you shift without moving your hands from the steering wheel. It's much safer being able to keep both hands on the wheel. :shades:
Please, allow me! :P
Not to get too crazy about this, but "fun" might not be the same thing as "driving fast".
The reason the driver of that Ferrari 430 shut everything off on the track (ABS, traction control, SC, etc, if all that's possible to do on that car) is this:
The greatest thrill you can have in driving is NOT being totally in control---if one is always in control, one learns nothing, so you aren't "driving" the car, you are steering it basically.
You might argue---"well, drifting is in control"----hmmm....not really, if you think about it.
As the old race drivers used to say (and perhaps the new ones still do)..."if you are in control of your race car 100% of the time, you'll finish the race, but you're not going to win. "
Of course, it is irresponsible for us to drive like that on public roads---but we can get edgy without getting crazy.
Perhaps I'm being unfair to DCTs, because usually this transmission is combined with all kinds of other "nanny" gadgets.
Maybe if I could buy a DCT with no TC, ABS, SC, lane-avoidance, self-parking and snooze alarm and armrests that Tweet, I'd be happier with the prospect.
We don't want to ask what they call the shifting mechanism under the bonnet, lol.
Knowing me though, I'd then try to clutch with my right foot and wind up driving into the Thames.
As comments to the article suggest, this transmission is often criticized by people who never actually used it. It's actually quite pleasant to drive and not all THAT slow.
http://ranwhenparked.net/2009/02/11/what-lies-beneath-porsche-sportomatic/
I actually find that to be true about a lot of different transmissions. Some of them can really surprise you when given the chance.
of course, others perform about as expected.
I'd like cars and bikes both that allow shifting but don't need constant clutch work. I like shifting, I don't always like clutching.
Ahh, a fellow heretic
I can't imagine a CVT ever shifting faster than a DCT after my experiences with them in a Nissan Murano and Audi A4. (My car is an A3 with DSG).
Even if it could shift faster, it would still take 3 more light years to reach 60 MPH from 0.
Do you have any statistics backing up that a CVT can be a performance oriented choice?
I'd be curious to know.
Motor Trend liked the CVT although they said it needed "loads of prodding" (translation--manual shifting). CR said it was doggy off the line until the turbo get worked up.
I don't mind the looks so much. Yeah, it's ugly. But it's a mean kind of ugly. And you don't see it so much from the driver's seat.