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Okay...minor details do separate them, however...it's the major ones that stand out and buyers see the most. Simply put...do you really want to buy a flagship sedan that doesn't separate itself enough to truly be a flagship sedan when you can get the next model down, get everything the flagship model offers AND get more power to boot? Unless you're just a Max fan...most folks won't, especially those hung up on the whole HP issue.
with $4 gas rapidly heading our way, it won't be too long before 'assets' like this are considered 'liabilities' - the reason why I don't see these 4000 lb. 350hp large sedans succeeding
While there is nothing luxury in the Maxima, okay...folding mirrors (not exactly luxury) anyway...do the amount of so called 'touches' outweigh the fact that in the grand scheme of things...the Altima provides one with most everything the Maxima offers.
Even if you go by the numbers...when it comes to interior space...there's only a couple of inches different in the categories, the Altima more in some and the Max more in others...almost a draw. Luggage capacity...Altima 15.3 / Max 15.5. Where's the advantage of the Maxima at this point?
Wait a minute, before we indulge this part of the post...what year is your Max again? Because if you go even stevens...and compare an '08 Altima against an '08 Max...the Altima has 15 more hp, 6 more lbs of torque and it weighs 156 lbs less than the Maxima. You're trying to convince me that the Maxima will keep up with the Altima??? :confuse:
really think so? if the Sonata V6 comes in at 20/29 (as it should) then that 3 mpg FE advantage is significant.
The new 249hp Sonata 3.3 is plenty quick (may even be quicker than the Azera) and at $4/gallon for gas it may represent a better deal to the consumer even if the price of the car starts to bump into Azera territory. FE will sell a long time before a few silly HP - and power folding mirrors..
you (and maybe even me) are swayed by HP, BUT in these types of practical cars sold to practical people,they just don't care about HP - what they do care about is sending their life's savings to mother Exxon. It will not likely occur to them that the 3mpg difference amounts to $30 or $40 a 1500 mile month, that difference will still be viewed as substantial regardless of what it is.
mainstream large sedans,
Let's all say it together
mainstream large sedans
I promise you guys that we have discussions all over the place that fit what you want to talk about and if this is not the right one, I'll be glad to help you find what is.
mainstream large sedans
Why? They are the top of the class and what the rest are judged on. It also doesn't hurt that the biggest contributors to this forum happen to be Av or Az owners.
I am free to discuss any car listed here. I have driven them all in one form or another (some at length) so ask away.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Certainly, it would make no sense at all to compare the Sonata Limited to an Azera GLS. If that were the case, I would take the Sonata over the Azera. However, comparing the Sonata Limited V-6 to the Azera Limited...I would take the Azera.
Do yourself a favor and go back and try both cars in their top trim level, decked out and let me know if there really isn't any difference between the two.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Would you care to elaborate your thinly veiled statement? Cylinder deactivation serves two purposes: fuel economy and reduced emissions. The Avalon running on all 6 cylinders produces more greenhouse pollution, than an engine running on two cylinders. Fuel economy is function of drive ratio as well as engine efficiency. The latter may be a more efficient engine.
The whole point of my post was a person smashes their mirror and blames it on the car. To which my response was drive a smaller car with some "teething" problems to get your folding mirrors. And before I get flamed here... yes I know Yota had their problems with tranny software and the first couple hundred six speeds. I am sure Honda will sort it out as Toyota did.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The six speed tranny problems were in the hundreds of units. Toyota sold almost half a million Camrys in '07. That isn't all that bad IMO. No manufacturer it perfect. None!
Over all I give the Avalon a solid "B". Too bad I paid an A+ price..don't kid your self tjc78>>it's not a Lexus!
You're right its not a Lexus. The full size Lex is over double the price. The ES350 while nice is Camry sized and has a small back seat. Remember the ES350 shares running gear with the Av and Camry. Honestly, if the Avalon is a "B" find me a full size (real full size, not cheating like Accord/Sonata) vehicle that can even come close to the Avalon under 40K. The only thing that comes to mind is the Azera.
As for the folding mirrors, I could care less either way. Unless you are driving something like a Tahoe or Navigator I just don't see the need.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
How about the 2008 Taurus/Sable? I just bought a Sable Premier for about $25000 out the door. I really like it, and may be the best car I have ever driven:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f166ea9.f166af7/23
There are some great deals to be had on these cars:
http://www.dalejarrettford.com/ad/DaleJarrettAd.pdf
While I do believe there are a select few with problems, I don't think it is as widespread as those on the forum make it out to be. Of course, if I had one of the problematic vehicles, I'd raise a stink over it to, so I don't blame anyone.
Back to the fullsize cars?
If I may, I'd like to interject my 2 cents here...When I was in the market for a new car, I basically had it narrowed down to 2 vehicles, Buick Lucerne and the Avalon. One day while actually driving to Toyota dealership to drive the Avy, my eye was caught by this dark colored car that came flying by me.. turns out it was the ES350. Really caught my eye.. went to the Lexus dealer and started shopping. I will admit that the Lexus in my opinion is a little "fancier" inside, and has an appealing body line. Comfort wise I was not impressed. It was ok, but certainly didn't feel as roomy to me as the Avy. And if memory serves me correctly both the avy and the ES350 use the exact same power plant. When I went back over to the Toyota dealership I realized why the ES350 caught my eye.. because in my opinion the avy and the 350 have alot of similarities. and I couldn't see why I should spend more just so I can own a so called "status symbol".. I've owned vehicles in the past that greatly outprice the ES350, but this time around I was looking for a blend of comfort, good power and good fe. all three of which I found in the avy, and for less than the price of the lexus. Not knocking the lexus, i'm sure it's a fine car, but for me the lexus "L" couldn't justify the difference in cost. JMO
As for the folding mirrors, my wifes Envoy has em,.... I don't think that in the 2 years we've owned that vehicle, that we've ever folded the mirrors in once. so for people like us, it's really a non issue.
Roland
Thank you.
I just don't think it is up to par with the Avalon/Azera on numerous levels (interior and engine mainly). For the initial dollar amount, may not be able to beat it, (especially the base model Taurus). However, remember.. with the rebates and low selling price resale will be horrid. Not an issue if you are keeping it 10 years, but certainly if you want to trade out in 3 or 4.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Drove home from the mountains last night in a snowstorm. Road was solid icy/slushy and Azera handled it easily, but with everyone being careful. Love that traction control and Electronic Stability Control. I understand by 2009 all cars with be required to have that capability.
Sure hope that wasn't your first one - not even a good synthetic can be relied on for that! Also use synthetic and IMO so should everybody else.
Getting 30k miles on a set of OEMs probably means some Bridgestones or something 'cheap' because it is nothing to write home about. Heck, I had 48k on my Av's Michelins and they had maybe another 10k tread left when I replaced them!
Would suggest to you that if you are driving anywhere near hard enough that you know about your TC/ESC then one of a number of things is happening: 1) the mfgr. has set intervention levels too low and/or 2) you are driving too fast for the conditions and/or 3) the systems aren't working right. They ought to be transparent in 'normal' driving. Thought that 2010 is the year that our erstwhile government is requiring the 'nannies' BTW.
The ES350 is just a glorified Camry V6 XLE, period.
People who are buying that car are clearly looking for status symbol with the industry leading customer service and dealership experience. To be honest, I couldn't justify buying an ES350 (I'd go with either an Avalon or Camry V6 XLE) but I can understand why people are buying it.
I still have original goodyears on my car with 60k+ , rotate them @ 7500 and i still have about 20 k+ left on them.
in on of the past discussions you mentioned that TCO for Azera was higher than for Avy. As you can see tires do contribute to that.
Do you not have a type of Oil Life Monitor on your car?
3750 on synthetic seems like double overkill to me. I can see 7500 on synthetic, or 3750 on regular. I go 4,500 miles in my old Accord w/180k miles on regular Castrol.(manual recommends 3750 in stop & go "severe conditions" but 7,500 for normal conditions which I actually fall into).
You must do a lot of city driving?
I see.
A certain Toyota competitor's maintenance minder monitors driving style (counting RPM) and doesn't go strictly by mileage. For example, my driving sends me for a service about every 7500, according to the minder, while my dad's car with the same monitor goes about every 6000, since he races around a bit more than I.
My old 1996 (this was around a long time before though) has a little colored square under the speedo which you reset yourself by inserting the key into a hole beside it. At 6,000 miles it turns yellow (from green) and at 7500 turns red. It's simple, and doesn't glare at you, but it's kinda handy considering the vehicle's age.
You mean the Avalon does not have an oil life monitor that senses how the engine is being used, temperature, number of starts, miles, speeds, etc., to adjust the life of the oil it's predicitng? I could have a QuickLube sticker onthe windshield tell me the 5000 miles intervals.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Captain, if the Avalon uses the same system as my Lexus (which I think it does) then the reminder isn't set to pop up at every 5k miles. Instead, the system actually monitors the oil condition and when it thinks an oil change is required you'll see it flashing at you.
I've paid attention to this several times and not once did it pop up at 5k (or 4.9k, 4.8k...) mile exactly from the last oil change.