The Current State of the US Auto Market

tlong · October 2013

I remember when fewer than 5K Caddy SRX's were recalled for a fire hazard. A photo of one on fire--the same photo--was posted on the old GM forum by the same guy every bit of ten times--perhaps more. Just sayin'.

Well given that it was around the time of the BK, it was pretty funny.

uplanderguy · October 2013

Well, maybe, but I have a hunch that if I posted a pic of an engulfed Audi in the recent fire-possibility recall that I said I saw, and posted it multiple times, I'm not sure you guys would think I was all that funny.

andres3 · October 2013

That's sort of what 60 Minutes did to Audi in the 80's with the bogus "runaway acceleration" claims.

Some people are winning their Toyota lawsuits for the same thing. I think that shows the ridiculousness of our civil law suit system in this country. Too many lawyers; not enough legitimate work out there for them.

circlew · October 2013

Funny how their market share is not improving:

On Tuesday, the government's General Accountability Office issued an update on GM, citing "increasingly positive financial results" as the car company continues to make progress from its low in 2009, when both it and Chrysler went through government-scripted Chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganizations.

"For each of the past three years, GM has reported profits, positive and growing operational cash flow, and a stable liquidity position. This improved financial performance has been reflected in GM's credit rating, as each of the three largest credit rating agencies has increased GM's long-term credit rating," the GAO wrote.

The GAO noted, however, that GM has lower market share than before its bankruptcy filing and it still has a large pension liability, despite a series of moves to reduce the burden.

Data from Kelley Blue Book show GM's share of the U.S. new-vehicle market is 17.7% in the third quarter this year. Its Q3 market share from 2007 before the Great Recession hit hard, to last year, generally has tracked down, from 25.1% in 2007 to 18% a year ago.

circlew · October 2013

Consumer Reports: Top 10 most unreliable car brands/a>

The list of the worst brands for reliability:

1. Mini

2. Lincoln

3. Ford

4. Cadillac

5. Dodge

6. Jeep

7. Nissan

8. Hyundai

9. Volkswagen

10.Ram

andre1969 · October 2013

Yay, I'm number Ten!! :P

I wonder what's dragging the Ram down? Last time I looked at a Consumer Reports, I think the Ram pickup was rated average. And that probably comprises the bulk of their sales. The big Freightliner/Benz-based van thing is also marketed as a Ram, but I don't know if CR tests those or not. The windowless cargo version of the Caravan is also marketed as a Ram, rather than a Dodge, but I doubt if they make very many of those.

Maybe the #10 spot really isn't all that bad? It's just that everybody else is scoring a bit better than just "average", so that's why they're not on the list?

lemko · October 2013

I think the only thing dragging down Cadillac is that CUE system which is similar to Ford's.

I'm surprised to see Hyundai on that list. I thought they were the new golden boy.

stever · October 2013

GM has lower market share than before its bankruptcy filing

They also have what, four fewer brands than before? The market share doesn't concern me much; I'd be more worried about the reports today that profit dropped. (WSJ) But a good part of that was due to a UAW stock buy-back deal to fund health costs. Throwing that and taxes out and they actually did better per share than predicted. Not as good as Ford did though.

Chrysler's earnings were up 22%, which isn't going to help Sergio battle the UAW over their IPO filing. If the Cherokee had not been delayed, the numbers would have been higher (but a lousy roll-out could have zapped profits for several quarters down the road, so good for Chrysler for appearing to take a longer view).

dieselone · October 2013

"Yay, I'm number Ten!! :P

I wonder what's dragging the Ram down?"

Me too!

I believe it's the diesel 3/4 and 1 ton Rams. All of the EPA regs applied to diesel engines lately has had a negative impact on some diesel engines.

The 1500 is still average overall.

I was glad to see CR mentioned Uconnect had fewer complaints than most other infotainment systems. I haven't had any real issues with it. Sometimes it's a bit slower to boot up after startup than other times, but it's not a big deal. I appreciate Chrysler, Ram or whoever designed the system, included redundant controls for most functions. The only issue I've come across is the media function sometimes has issues recognizing MP3s on SD-cards and USB memory sticks. Voice recognition and blutooth connectivity is solid, seems to be better than the Sync setup in my wife's Taurus.

busiris · October 2013

"Yay, I'm number Ten!!"

Uhhh... My wife is number One...

Although, her 2005 Mini convertible seems to be old enough to have missed some of the cost-cutting referred to in the article. It's been just as reliable as the Chrysler minivans she owned prior to the Mini. Of course, the 2005 models were towards the end of the first generation models, which no doubt had some influence. And, she's not the most "spirited" driver anyone would have the pleasure of riding beside.

Michaell · October 2013

My daughter has a 2010 MINI Cooper .. there haven't been any unscheduled trips to the dealer after 3 years and almost 30,000 miles.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

yeah, well, occasionally people fall off buildings and land on a passing mattress truck too, but in general odds are not in your favor with a MINI. Not a car you want to keep long past warranty.

Michaell · October 2013

When we bought the MINI, the daughter added in both the pre-paid maintenance and extended warranty to either 6 or 7 years.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

that's a good move. She'll need it.

andre1969 · October 2013

I guess it's kind of ironic, considering that the cars keep getting better and better, but I'm finding that I don't want to keep them past the warranty period, anymore. Now I've only bought two brand-new cars in my whole life...a 2000 Intrepid, and a 2012 Ram. The Trep had a 3/36K bumper to bumper and a 5/100K aftermarket warranty, and I did keep it to 10 years and 150,000 miles, and would have kept it longer if it hadn't gotten totaled.

The truck is 3/36K bumper to bumper, and powertrain is either 5/50K or 5/60K. But I don't drive alot these days, so it'll probably only have about 25-30K on it at the 5 year mark. I've thought about trading just before then, just to get back into something new and under warranty.

dieselone · October 2013

"The truck is 3/36K bumper to bumper, and powertrain is either 5/50K or 5/60K. But I don't drive alot these days, so it'll probably only have about 25-30K on it at the 5 year mark. I've thought about trading just before then, just to get back into something new and under warranty."

Are you sure about the powertrain warranty? Mine is 5/100k miles. I thought all Chrysler products went to 100k powertrain warranties about the same time GM did.

As for how long to keep a car, usually by 100k or so, I'm ready for something newer. I owned the Expedition for 5 years which is the longest I've ever kept any vehicle and it had about 130k miles on it which is the most miles I've put on any one vehicle.

As for the Ram, I don't know how long I'll keep it. Kind of depends on how well it holds up.

andres3 · October 2013

In just the last ten years, I think Chrysler has offered at least 4 different varieties of powertrain warranty on their vehicles. From 3/36 to "Lifetime" with 100 fine print exclusions of course.

I wouldn't put it past them to make decent power trains one year, and then use all the partially defected manufactured product the next year (sometimes known as rejects or B-stock), and of course, that particular year they are using junk will have the shorter warranty, and when they use the good stuff you get the longer version of warranty that particular year. Wouldn't put that past them at all.

That's the kind of "morals" Chrysler execs have.

busiris · October 2013

BMW is itching to reduce costs in its lower-level lines of vehicles, and one way they are doing it is by creating a wider front-wheel-drive platform which will be used on Mini's, X1's, etc.

It's been my overall experience that when the costs start going under the knife, so does quality, so I'm expecting to see some quality issues spread into those lines that go FWD in the next few years.

The one thing I think I've learned in buying BMW's is that you're much better off buying a vehicle after the mid-life refresh cycle (reliability-wise) than buying a new model immediately after it's been introduced.

anythngbutgm · October 2013

Anecdotal for sure, but I just got back from New Orleans and had a friend pick me up in his 3-series wagon which I think is something like a 2006 or 2007. 328xi, mid level features and in great shape. Anyways the thing rode like brand new and exhibited zero squeeks, rattles or pops for a car which is essentially an "Extreme commuter". Needless to say I was shocked to look over at the odometer and find it had just under 248 thousand miles on the clock and apparently has needed very little in the way of unscheduled maintainence. The only thing it exhibited was a slipping transmission which at that age and mileage is nothing to argue with. Those GM sourced transmissions have always been a weak spot for BMW (which is why I've always been recommended to buy manuals if I am buying a Bimmer) but this one is certainly going the distance...

This is the same guy who put around 330k miles (ironically) on a 2004 330xi with little to no problems before the thing literally caught fire on him which in the end turned out to be from neglect. The engine overheated and he continued to drive it trying to limp it home...

Still, the reputation for high maintenance and low reliability don't seem to be the case for his cars. He swears by them.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

Well the cars are well built but i bet if you pinned him down and opened up his records, you (and maybe he himself) would be surprised at how much was spent on the car per month to keep it rolling. As for the slipping transmission, once that it fixed, you add that substantial cost into the number of months he's owned the car, and it's going to add $50--$80 to his monthly cost to own.

My car looks great and has never ever broken down on me, but cheap to own compared to a Honda? No way.

I do envy his rattle free environment, though. Sport suspensions and large wheels beat the crap out of a car.

lemko · October 2013

City streets beat the crap out of a car. That's why I drive a tough and durable Grand Marquis as my daily beater.

andres3 · October 2013

Yes, sport suspensions (and even after market coil overs that are even stiffer) do make a car get bounced around a bit harder.

But these well built cars (like my A3 with 105,000 miles plus) are built for this. You will wear and tear the wear parts maybe a bit faster. Tracking the car 2 weekends a year also adds to it.

For instance, I needed to get new motor mounts around 90,000 miles and new front strut mounts (clunking badly) at 104,000 miles.

After those repairs however, targeting two or three specific parts, the car rides smooth, quiet, and rattle/noise free. Our bad CA roads however, challenge the opportunity for smoothness and make it limited.

My Dodge had so many rattles by 60,000 miles that you could no longer count them. Would be easier and cheaper to replace the whole vehicle than try to eliminate all the noises.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

Some roads, like the Nimitz Freeway in Oakland are so bad I actually had to add steel re-inforcement plates to the top of my shock towers. Some cars are susceptile to de-formation. My lower control arm bushings have been pounded into dust.

I wonder, as infrastructure continues to deteriorate, if car makers will respond with extra-tough suspensions? Maybe as an option, like "urban survival kit--$1295--includes heavy duty suspension, lo-jack, floor safe, bumper overiders, locking gas cap, extra side moldings, run-flat tires, extra capacity cabin filters...."

andres3 · October 2013

Unless the headrests are power and I couldn't find the button, the head rest on the driver's seat was indeed broken in my 2013 X5 rental recently.

No matter what I did, or no matter how much force used, I couldn't get the dang headrest to move up for my 6'3" frame.

3 points against BMW on quality, durability, and reliability.

andres3 · October 2013

That reminds me, the drive from Twentynine Palms to Baker (on the way to Pahrump, NV (near Vegas) probably hastened the death of my original OEM suspension mounts in front.

A knock against Cal-Trans for sure, but on certain sections of the highway between Baker and Twentynine Palms, CA, the asphalt roadway was so deteriorated that it was like driving on a pin cushion surface, and I did it at 70 MPH for quite a stretch. Probably ill-advised.

I didn't think that kind of deplorable 10th-world quality road would last for miles and miles and miles in the State of CA. Maybe in a poor 3rd world country, but not USA. Cal Trans should be abolished.

crkyolfrt · October 2013

Let Darwinism prevail...the world is FULL of idiots like your non-seatbelt wearer.. and this dim bulb who was protesting against helmet laws.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-rider-dies-protesting-motorcycle-helmet-law/story?- id=13993417

The problem with this though, is that our taxes are constantly raised in order to treat the ar*e in hospital. It's a (relative) bargain if he dies at the scene of the crash. Worst case is if he lives in a vegetative state with constant care paid for by us.

And for insult upon injury, the poor bugger didn't even know how to brake properly on a bike...probably entirely ignoring the front brake all together. Used too much rear brake, it slid out and then grabbed, and then high-sided the guy...probably from a compressed suspension too when it found traction, which can really catapult ya when it releases..probably had some serious air to boot.

I feel badly for this as*'s family due to their loss, but it could have been worse...he could have involved one of them too

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

Well those Harley monkey-bars are one quick way to die. And that to diminished reflexes at age 55, and a bike that weighs too much, and very bad roads, and your odds keep getting worse.

crkyolfrt · October 2013

Of course there's also this winner...post #20...

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u601/skid- markm109r/Apehangers_zpsc9cf8e60.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.m109riders.com/forums/- showthread.php?t%3D169872&h=768&w=1024&sz=102&tbnid=H0pRBz7WSYQ4HM:&tbnh=87&tbnw- =116&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dape%2Bhangers%2Blink%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=ape- +hangers+link&usg=__jvTNaHRlirjuY5TYjfu9oIuBN2k=&sa=X&ei=TLFyUrzYINOl2AXT94GwBQ&- ved=0CDQQ9QEwBA

busiris · October 2013

"Well those Harley monkey-bars are one quick way to die. And that to diminished reflexes at age 55, and a bike that weighs too much, and very bad roads, and your odds keep getting worse."

I've ridden bikes since I was 12 (almost 59 now), in every state but Hawaii, as well as in a large part of Western Europe, but since I hit 50, my riding has greatly diminished.

Partly due to your point on diminished reflexes, partly due to a degenerating lower back issue, but in large part due to other vehicle drivers yapping on their cellphones. Let me also include the desire of a more comfortable means of conveyance, too.

Believe me, we don't view the world the same way when we are zeroing in on 60 as we did when we were 20, and we sure as heck don't heal from injuries nearly as rapidly (sometimes, not at all).

No helmet made will protect you from an idiot on a cellphone driving a 1.5-2 ton unguided missile.

busiris · October 2013

You know, they call those handlebars "ape hangers" for a reason...

crkyolfrt · October 2013

OTOH, the other day I was watching a nature program featuring proof positive that chimpanzees were not only using tools they made to stab and acquire bushbuggys out of hollowed out tree branch trunks, they were teaching the young ones how to do it too..
So in thinking more about your comment...maybe we're being a bit too hard on the chimps, haha

That link tho, shows the most extreme case of rebellion on a bike I have ever seen. For anyone who rides, you can see that they are SO high that the bike is barely controllable. His brain will be a bit starved of blood too..trying to keep blood pumped up into his arms..

busiris · October 2013

A friend of my coined the term "biker crucifixion" for riding bikes with ape hangers.

xrunner2 · October 2013

>>>>>>>>City streets beat the crap out of a car. That's why I drive a tough and durable Grand Marquis as my daily beater. >>>>>>>>>

So, why is your city in such poor repair?

tlong · October 2013

I've ridden bikes since I was 12 (almost 59 now), in every state but Hawaii, as well as in a large part of Western Europe, but since I hit 50, my riding has greatly diminished.

Be careful out there. A coworker for many years, about 60 years old, was riding home from work last year. He was the nicest most careful guy around. Headlight on, helmet, etc. He was on a two lane road and went through an intersection at the speed limit (50mph) and an oncoming Ford F150 that didn't see him due to the sun behind him left-turned right in front of him. There were just a few feet of skid marks before the impact.

He had his first grandchild that was under 1, and his wife was retiring in a month from her teaching job. They had just bought an RV to tour the country together. So sad.

crkyolfrt · October 2013

Gosh I'm so sorry to hear that. Left turns in intersections are just about as bad a risk as it gets for a rider. I feel especially badly for those who he left behind so early. Yes..so sad indeed.

tlong · October 2013

Thanks gimmestd.

uplanderguy · November 2013

My aunt's husband was killed on a motorcycle in our small town in 1955--three years before I was born. I heard that story every time I ever mentioned 'motorcycle' in our house. I rode on them, but never drove one or bought one.

circlew · November 2013

Had 2 bikes in my life, one early teens and then one in my '20's. The second one was a Honda V-45 (~90 HP) 750CC.

After watching a race up in Laconia, NH during the annual MC week, way back in the early '80's, a racer lost it on one of the bends and mixed it up with his bike during the crash. (The racer never got up and the ambulance crew did a good job at the scene to remove him from the track.) I was less than 30 ft. from the start of the crash.

I sold the bike within a month after getting back home.

andre1969 · November 2013

When I was a kid, the neighbor kids had a motorized dirt bike...essentially a kid-sized motorcycle. One day, we were playing on the rock piles at a construction site up the street. They let me ride it, and it was fun, although I did wipe out on a hill.

That evening at dinner, I told my Mom that the neighbors got a dirt bike. She said she knew, and that she saw me crash on it, as she was coming home from work, and had a pretty stern look on her face. Needless to say, there was a lot of awkward silence the rest of the evening, and I think that squashed any fantasies I ever had about owning a motorcycle!

Mr_Shiftright · November 2013

Let's all try to get back on topic folks! Thanks

circlew · November 2013

OK.

Reuters) - The U.S. government has booked a loss of $9.7 billion on the nearly $50 billion bailout of U.S. automaker General Motors Co (GM.N), according to a quarterly report to Congress on Tuesday.

Talk about drifting!:)

Mr_Shiftright · November 2013

Well again, and I KNOW what I'm going to say irritates some people out there, but the government was choosing the lesser of two evils here---to not fund GM and have it collapse completely, and have to deal with all the welfare associated with that massive lay-off (the rippling effect of which was completely unknown, meaning could it go down the line to suppliers, truckers, who knows what) OR to take a risk that the bail out wouldn't cost as much as the alternative.

And, no, throwing everyone to the wolves was not a viable 3rd choice.

greg128 · November 2013

Detroit and Nissan do well. well. Gm up the most. VW a loser and Hyun-Kia an almost loser...

http://www.ibtimes.com/here-are-october-2013-big-eight-us-auto-sales-numbers-gm-- ford-chrysler-toyota-honda-nissan-1451010

andres3 · November 2013

Choosing the lesser of two evils is one theory, and your opinion. Choosing the greater of two evils is another theory, and another opinion.

For instance, some might say they (the gov't) were bailing out GM for the sole purpose of winning re-election 4 years later knowing that Michigan and Ohio would favor the bailouts and reward the free handouts with a vote.

They are 2 battleground States after all.

If you say but Bush started the bailouts and he didn't have a re-election to worry about, I'd counter:

1) Bush didn't want the collapse of GM and Chrysler to technically be during his watch.

2) Vanity and Ego to prevent it from happening during his tenure.

3) Keeping consistent at always doing the wrong thing; why change at the end of your 8 years?

Mr_Shiftright · November 2013

Well, if a bailout prevents massive welfare outlays AND wins an election, what's not to like? Think of it as the reward for doing the right thing.

Of course, the problem in addressing critics is that one doesn't get to see how the other plan panned out (let 'em rot, basically).

In my view, there was NO upside to letting GM collapse. Aside from airy speculation about a future filled with sunlit uplands populated with invigorated zeal among the surviving automakers just dying to employ 256,000 bankrupt GM employees, I don't see any concrete rebuttal to the government bailout that doesn't seem the greater evil.

circlew · November 2013

GM failed. It cost a lot. Live with it. I am....without supporting further failure.:)

Mr_Shiftright · November 2013

If you mean a 2nd bailout, no, I agree---that won't happen. A political third rail.

I do have to shake my head, though, when the rap sheet is read on the UAW, and GM management is always left out of the blame game.

circlew · November 2013

The "GM Management of Failure" always spun failure into success. At lease SOME of the current management admitted they made Crappy Cars in the past.

GM is no longer making crappy cars but it cost a lot to change the game. Too bad the past disease remains alive and well underlying a basis for failure once again.

Not saying Toyota or Honda are any better, just for the record. They are having their fun with crappy parts!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/11/02/honda-odyssey-minivan-recall- /3370177/

busiris · November 2013

"Well, if a bailout prevents massive welfare outlays AND wins an election, what's not to like? Think of it as the reward for doing the right thing. "

From a political POV, it was a no-win situation with about 50% of the citizenry.

"Of course, the problem in addressing critics is that one doesn't get to see how the other plan panned out (let 'em rot, basically). "

Critics of any action can always talk about how things WOULD have been if their preferred course had been taken.

"In my view, there was NO upside to letting GM collapse. Aside from airy speculation about a future filled with sunlit uplands populated with invigorated zeal among the surviving automakers just dying to employ 256,000 bankrupt GM employees, I don't see any concrete rebuttal to the government bailout that doesn't seem the greater evil."

I totally agree. I don't like it, simply because the entire episode was preventable if both the UAW and management had taken earlier action (after all, economists had been predicting GM failure since the 70's if no action was taken to reign in legacy costs). But, no one blinked, and the car industry in the US drove off a cliff.

What's done is done. Time to move on...

uplanderguy · November 2013

Since the '70's? That's news to me. That's when GM creamed everyone else in sales each year, by the hundreds of thousands if not more.

The Current State of the US Auto Market

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