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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, you don't want an automatic 122, egads no. It's like this......whirr....Whirr...WHIRRRRRRRRRR.....CLUNK! BLAAAAATTTT.... (dead gas pedal, then slow increase in speed once again). To back up, it's neutral to reverse---two, three, four five----CLUNK--LURCH!
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    oh, no chance I would ever get an AT in something like this.

    but, if I had more money than brains, this looks like a great starting point for that resto mod. With the first thing going in a 5 speed stick. Along with a much peppier engine, and full IPD suspension package. Bigger 4 wheel disks. And some cool wheels that look period correct. Later Volvo seats. I think that would do it.

    cheaper than starting with a rust bucket!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, you could build the engine and install an overdrive like the Volvo 123 GT had. Ever see one of those?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    not in person. but something like that. Or maybe a later engine swapped in.

    looks like someone tried it with a 142.

    http://bringatrailer.com/2015/10/13/blue-chip-pricing-sharp-1972-volvo-142gt/

    the other oddball I always had a sweet spot for was the 242 GT. That is already more "modern", so less upgrades required.


    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I don't ever recall seeing a two tone Volvo before, although I think they existed, so that picture is kind of interesting. The only thing related I recall seeing was some Volvo's with vinyl tops.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    the GT from this vintage was that paint scheme. The vinyl roof was the chop job 262c. that was an odd duck.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What that car needs is a nice modern FI V-6, like from a Camaro. There's just too much iron for those old 4 cylinders.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited December 2015
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Oh yeah, could it have been a Dodge Meadowbrook? Or something like that? It had fluid drive, I remember that. Old fintails are hard to speedshift. I'm sure I could have top-ended him given an empty jetport runway.

    Meadowbrook sounds right if it was a Dodge. With Fluid Drive it didn't stand a chance against any American car except, say, a Crosley.

    Plymouths didn't offer Fluid Drive, just a 3-speed or OD in '51. Why Dodges, DeSotos, Chryslers and Imperials didn't offer fully automatic transmissions until the 1954 model year is beyond me. Fluid Drive and its derivatives could be justified until the late 1940s, at the latest, but Chrysler Corp. was renowned for engineering.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Yeah, you could build the engine and install an overdrive like the Volvo 123 GT had. Ever see one of those?

    Don't know if it was US Spec, but I drove in a Volvo 144 in 1975 that had factory overdrive.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If it had the little OD lever on the steering stalk, it was factory.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I grew up (?) in a Chevy town but a buddy didn't have the budget to buy the Chevy he wanted so he bought a 1951 Dodge for, I think, 75.00. It wasn't in bad shape and it looked and ran quite well.

    Then he discovered the joys of trying to speed shift the Fluid Drive. He would floor the gas, lift his foot off the gas pedel only to slam it back to the floor. He certainly didn't impress anyone!

    The transmission put up this for awhile but it wasn't long until the prro car would emit a loud CLUNK when it shifted even under gentle driving conditions.

    His next car was a 1957 Dodge that an old lady had owned. Clean, nice, low miles and it came with the D 500 engine. Gold and white with four doors! MAN, that car was FAST!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    30K for that blue Volvo? Sure it has endless hipster cred, but I don't know if the trust funds will go for that.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    yeah, that price is nuts. More like a car that if it popped up local for $5k, I would debate with myself.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I suspect at that price  the seller will be singing happy birthday to that car once a year
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    hpmctorque said:

    Plymouths didn't offer Fluid Drive, just a 3-speed or OD in '51. Why Dodges, DeSotos, Chryslers and Imperials didn't offer fully automatic transmissions until the 1954 model year is beyond me. Fluid Drive and its derivatives could be justified until the late 1940s, at the latest, but Chrysler Corp. was renowned for engineering.

    I remember reading an old road test of a 1953 DeSoto Firedome convertible, which had the 276.1 Hemi with 160 hp, and Fluid Drive. 0-60 was around 17.6 seconds. The writeup mentioned that the Hemi was about 4 seconds quicker from 0-60 than the flathead-6.

    I forget what the original source of that test was, though. In googling around though, apparently Motortrend managed to get a '53 Firedome, all 4120 pounds of it, from 0-60 in 15.5 seconds.

    I'd imagine a Fluid Drive '51 Dodge would be around the 21-22 second mark in 0-60? It would be lighter than the DeSoto, but its 6-cyl engine would also be less powerful.

    I wonder if not having an automatic transmission hurt Chrysler Corporation sales very much in the early 50's? It probably wasn't *too* big of a deal in the 1940's, although according to Wikipedia, when the Hydramatic was offered for Pontiac in 1948, roughly 70% of them were sold with it. So apparently, demand was there for an automatic.

    My guess is that just about anything would have sold from 1946 to around 1950, because of pent-up demand after WWII. But I'd think lack of an automatic would be an issue in the early 50's. Especially in upper-level cars like a DeSoto, Chrysler, or Imperial. I think it was 1950 or 1951 that Ford started outselling Chrysler Corp again, to become the #2 auto maker. Throughout the 30's and 40's, Chrysler would often be #2. Even though Ford division would outsell Plymouth by a wide margin, they had nothing to really bridge the gap between Ford and Lincoln, whereas Mopar had Dodge, DeSoto, and Chrysler to fill the gap between Plymouth and Imperial. And Mercury wasn't that strong of a contender in its early years. It wouldn't really come into its own until the 1949 models.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,861
    I'm trying to be delicate here, but in the footage of them trying to root out the third suspect in San Bernardino last night, did anyone else notice what looked like an aerial view of a beige, '61 GM two-door hardtop? I could tell the de-finned, glassy, Jetson's-sort-of-styling. On AOL this morning is a clear pic of a '61 Impala that a police sharpshooter is steadying his rifle on. Not often seen in a contemporary major news story, that is for sure.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    If it had the little OD lever on the steering stalk, it was factory.

    Yup, thats the one. I mentioned it because there were a couple of posts that seemed to indicate that OD had to be manually added to that car.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    andre1969 said:

    hpmctorque said:

    Plymouths didn't offer Fluid Drive, just a 3-speed or OD in '51. Why Dodges, DeSotos, Chryslers and Imperials didn't offer fully automatic transmissions until the 1954 model year is beyond me. Fluid Drive and its derivatives could be justified until the late 1940s, at the latest, but Chrysler Corp. was renowned for engineering.

    I remember reading an old road test of a 1953 DeSoto Firedome convertible, which had the 276.1 Hemi with 160 hp, and Fluid Drive. 0-60 was around 17.6 seconds. The writeup mentioned that the Hemi was about 4 seconds quicker from 0-60 than the flathead-6.

    I forget what the original source of that test was, though. In googling around though, apparently Motortrend managed to get a '53 Firedome, all 4120 pounds of it, from 0-60 in 15.5 seconds.

    I'd imagine a Fluid Drive '51 Dodge would be around the 21-22 second mark in 0-60? It would be lighter than the DeSoto, but its 6-cyl engine would also be less powerful.

    I wonder if not having an automatic transmission hurt Chrysler Corporation sales very much in the early 50's? It probably wasn't *too* big of a deal in the 1940's, although according to Wikipedia, when the Hydramatic was offered for Pontiac in 1948, roughly 70% of them were sold with it. So apparently, demand was there for an automatic.

    My guess is that just about anything would have sold from 1946 to around 1950, because of pent-up demand after WWII. But I'd think lack of an automatic would be an issue in the early 50's. Especially in upper-level cars like a DeSoto, Chrysler, or Imperial. I think it was 1950 or 1951 that Ford started outselling Chrysler Corp again, to become the #2 auto maker. Throughout the 30's and 40's, Chrysler would often be #2. Even though Ford division would outsell Plymouth by a wide margin, they had nothing to really bridge the gap between Ford and Lincoln, whereas Mopar had Dodge, DeSoto, and Chrysler to fill the gap between Plymouth and Imperial. And Mercury wasn't that strong of a contender in its early years. It wouldn't really come into its own until the 1949 models.
    I'm certain that lack of a fully automatic transmission would have helped Chrysler Corp sales between, say, 1950-1953. Ford and Mercury offered Fordomatic and Mercomatic (same transmission) beginning with the '51 model year, while Lincoln bought Hydramatics from GM from '51-'54 (I believe). Meanwhile Chevy introduced Powerglide in '51 or '52 so, yeah, the fact that Mopars still employed a clutch was a definite detriment.

    Also, at the risk of sounding sexist, a lot of women started driving for the first time after WWII, and they overwhelmingly preferred automatics over manual trannies. Maybe Chrysler Corp could have kept its lead over Ford Motor Co. of it had introduced Powerflyte as an option in all its cars in '50 or '51.

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I'm sure the lack of a real automatic hurt Chrysler Corporation products in the first half of the fifties. As for dropping behind Ford, I think Ford styling was more modern as well, at least until Exner styling impact starting around '54.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Barn find
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Nice patina. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Gee, quoting a Porsche restorer who says "go for it"--totally impartial point of view I'm sure. Beware of the bubble---when I see things like this, I know the end is near.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    well, that is a scary looking project. wonder how it will turn out?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I dunno...first of all there's the problem with the non-original engine. Then there is the dubious claim that a big bucks collector wants to pay top dollar for a car that is basically being reconstructed from nearly nothing. Then there is the speculation that prices are just going to go up and up, a never ending spiral of prosperity and free-spending. For anyone who has the money to buy a Speedster, well just go out and buy one that's done. They do appear for sale fairly often. Seems to me if you can fork up $153K for this pile, then you could fork up $300K for a pretty decent one.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Yeah, I'm not sure I see it either. But they must believe it, because the forked over a pile of cash for this old hulk.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2015
    Well in theory. eBay auctions are not legally binding. The bidder could sober up and just refuse to buy the car and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Lots of people fork over big bucks for "projects", to their eternal regret. Who knows, maybe this guy has a huge parts stash, incredible metal working skills, a period correct motor, etc. ....but you know, even then I have to wonder...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Geez, I remember when those were 50K cars.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,283
    fintail said:

    Geez, I remember when those were 50K cars.


    You must be old! ;)

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Well, today was a good day. I had to get some stuff in the back of the garage, but unfortunately, I had to move three cars and a truck to do it!


    The Ram obviously started up, no trouble at all. Oddly though, the one I was most worried about was my blue '79 New Yorker, which tends to give me fits, and was last started about two weeks ago. But, I gave it one gentle pump, turned the key, and nothing. One more pump, and a crank, and still nothing. But then, a third crank and it fired right up!

    The 5th Ave and Catalina were considerably more stubborn, but they've also been sitting longer...at least a month I think. But, everything moved under its own power, at least...



  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Careful andre, the place is starting to look like a car wash.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    lol, they could use a good washing. My blue New Yorker, especially, is pretty bad.

    On a separate subject, I found my VW 411...


  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    probably appropriate that you have it parked behind a tow truck.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's the owner's tow truck.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Nice cars. Does the VW happen to be a "Wiking"?
    andre1969 said:

    lol, they could use a good washing. My blue New Yorker, especially, is pretty bad.

    On a separate subject, I found my VW 411...

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    When I see some of these speculative prices, I feel it!
    ab348 said:




    You must be old! ;)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    fintail said:

    Nice cars. Does the VW happen to be a "Wiking"?

    I'm not sure who the maker is. I looked up "Wiking", and it looks like it could be. One of the other cars is an Audi 100 or something like that. The print on the bottom of them is so tiny I need my reading glasses! I'll have to dig them all out sometime and do a group shot.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I suspect it is, as the wheels seem familiar, but I am not an expert in small scale like that.

    Those are minor collectibles now - not worth a fortune, but people definitely collect them.
    andre1969 said:


    I'm not sure who the maker is. I looked up "Wiking", and it looks like it could be. One of the other cars is an Audi 100 or something like that. The print on the bottom of them is so tiny I need my reading glasses! I'll have to dig them all out sometime and do a group shot.

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,681
    edited December 2015
    Truck project update.... prior post on the subject here (I got mixed up in my topics):

    http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/comment/5158411/#Comment_5158411

    And, last night I did not replace the shocks since apparently they are difficult to come by (still trying to sort that one out), but, honestly, shocks are the least of my concerns. I just thought I would replace them while I had easy access.

    Rather, I put the rear wheels back on the truck and opened up the front differential housing. What did I find? Not pretty.....



    In case it is not obvious in the photo, the differential gear on the left side, which is the one that goes to the right front tire (remember, this is the front axle, so the housing cover is on the front of the unit rather than on the back), is finely worn to a nub. The gear on the right side (goes to left front tire), is literally chewed apart. There are large chunks of steel littering the bottom of the housing. I'm pretty sure this is the source of the noises I was hearing over the last few plowings.

    So, basically need to replace all the gears in that puppy. The problem is, I'm having trouble finding how I would go about doing that. I see replacement parts that includes the carrier itself (which doesn't look like it is damaged here), or the carrier with all the gears. This is an open differential, so I'm thinking of maybe getting a limited-slip differential, like this here. Am I off my rocker? Given that I only use this for plowing, would it be problematic to have this installed on a front axle with full-time four-wheel drive? I could replace the fixed axle hubs with a selective hub, I do believe.

    Part of the issue here is that I will have to pull the axle shafts out a ways to replace anything in here, but I don't see how to do that exactly. I suppose I'll just have to start digging and see what I see. It worked for the rear!

    What a headache....

    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    No see pic...
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,681
    texases said:

    No see pic...

    Ah..... sorry! It *is* there! I'll attempt to attach a second time, but no guarantees you'll see it if you can't see the last one. This is not the same image (a close approximation) because I cannot upload the same one twice:




    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Rebuilding a differential is kinda tricky, especially in the proper set up and shimming. If you do it yourself, I'm sure it would work but you may have more noise and lash than you wish. It depends on what tools you have and what database you are using to take you through the job.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    My first thought is get the entire axle from a junkyard, but they may be pretty rare for your truck. Like Shifty said, one of the most precise things on a truck or car to work on. I can't think of anything worse...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Precision is quite important in this job. Everything has to be measured....even torque is quite critical.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    $3,000 challenge on Long Island

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351089713.html Pretty plain 2WD Taco with 145k. I know that they have their fans, but meh

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351117885.html Older Toyo truck. This one has 4WD and looks nice in it's one pic, but no mention of miles. He says that body is excellent

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5314002942.html OK looking enough dustbuster, but I guess it has emissions troubles

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351101736.html 5 speed Civic

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351119618.html Were these Mazdas fun yet?

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5344635032.html Cheap drop top

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351073818.html "Deal of a lifetime' The trannys suck in these. I suppose if you can source a decent used one with a 1 year warranty, you could come out OK here

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5348109865.html Turbo and wagon and automatic :(

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351053492.html Different kind of wagon. Nice color but replace that grill

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5310560952.html These are disappearing pretty quickly

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5343286217.html Old school hybrid. I didn't think that these could last this long

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5343298428.html Newest car on this list.

    Overall, I'm pretty surprised by the depth of the offerings. Granted, you're not going to find a forever car here, but they don't look like total bombs. I remember the old days, that once a car hit 100k, you were playing with house money and couldn't count on anything. It's great to see so many cars make it to 150k and more
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,681
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Precision is quite important in this job. Everything has to be measured....even torque is quite critical.

    Great. These are not words of encouragement! LOL

    Honestly, I have never broken into a differential before. In general, they're one of the more reliable components on a vehicle. I considered just dropping it off the truck and taking it in to a shop for a rebuild, but I'm not sure I want to get into it ($-wise) that far. What is certain is that I need to get it sorted soon, as the snow will only hold off for so long....

    It just looks to me like a series of gears, so I would think that putting it all back together just like it came apart should do the trick, particularly if I am just installing a pre-built differential. The only connection that I could even screw up would be the ring-to-pinion gear.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2015
    gsemike said:

    $3,000 challenge on Long Island

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351089713.html Pretty plain 2WD Taco with 145k. I know that they have their fans, but meh

    shifty sez: LOOKS NEGLECTED

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351117885.html Older Toyo truck. This one has 4WD and looks nice in it's one pic, but no mention of miles. He says that body is excellent--

    THIS COULD BE A GOOD BUY

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5314002942.html OK looking enough dustbuster, but I guess it has emissions troubles--

    COULD BE EASY FIX, COULD BE MONSTROUS. BRING YOUR COMPRESSION TESTER

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351101736.html 5 speed Civic--

    LANGUAGE IN AD SUGGESTS THAT TARZAN IS SELLING IT. "Car good. Man sell car. Man need money"

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351119618.html Were these Mazdas fun yet?

    NO FUN

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5344635032.html Cheap drop top--

    WELL THE SELLER SAYS 'IT WON'T LAST LONG' AND I BELIEVE HIM.

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351073818.html "Deal of a lifetime' The trannys suck in these. I suppose if you can source a decent used one with a 1 year warranty, you could come out OK here--

    IT'S TRICKY TO BUY A CAR YOU CAN'T DRIVE

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5348109865.html Turbo and wagon and automatic :(

    OH GEE, A 16 YEAR OLD HIGH MILEAGE TURBO GERMAN CAR...WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG HERE?

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351053492.html Different kind of wagon. Nice color but replace that grill--

    MIGHT BE USEFUL VEHICLE BUT IS THAT RUST I SEE?

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5310560952.html These are disappearing pretty quickly--MIGHT BE A GOOD BUY AT AROUND $1800.

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5343286217.html Old school hybrid. I didn't think that these could last this long--

    PRIUSES ARE VERY STURDY CARS--BIGGEST CONCERN WOULD BE THE AGE OF THE BATTERIES IN THIS EXAMPLE.

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5343298428.html Newest car on this list.--

    NO....JUST NO.

    Overall, I'm pretty surprised by the depth of the offerings. Granted, you're not going to find a forever car here, but they don't look like total bombs. I remember the old days, that once a car hit 100k, you were playing with house money and couldn't count on anything. It's great to see so many cars make it to 150k and more

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    I would bite the bullet and get the pros to do it. Either rebuild yours, or find a reman and do a core exchange to save time.

    Unless you are really Edd China in disguise.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    "It just looks to me like a series of gears, so I would think that putting it all back together just like it came apart should do the trick, particularly if I am just installing a pre-built differential. The only connection that I could even screw up would be the ring-to-pinion gear. "

    Hahahahaha...oh, you were serious? Honestly, once you take it apart, you're in for lots of precise clearance adjustments. My '72 Duster spider gears ended up looking like yours (which I can now see, go figger). I went to a nearby junkyard and got a replacement entire rear axle, put it in with the car on jackstands in the dorm parking lot.

    But I guess there are internet resources out there to help you do the detailed repairs if you want to.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,345
    Mike, if that protege is an ES then yes it can be fun with a stick. Great cars.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    The 88 is too cheap, either a screaming bargain or something is really wrong with it. It would sell in 5 seconds here. That style, in mint condition, is almost something like a classic now.
    gsemike said:

    $3,000 challenge on Long Island


    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5351117885.html Older Toyo truck. This one has 4WD and looks nice in it's one pic, but no mention of miles. He says that body is excellent


    Overall, I'm pretty surprised by the depth of the offerings. Granted, you're not going to find a forever car here, but they don't look like total bombs. I remember the old days, that once a car hit 100k, you were playing with house money and couldn't count on anything. It's great to see so many cars make it to 150k and more

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