Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

Can VW Overtake Toyota and GM To Become #1?

1192022242527

Comments

  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    berri said:

    Good idea carboy, drop a fine on a company so large that it goes out of business. Lots of vendors loose their contract revenue, dealers fold, and many families are hit with sudden unemployment. That'll show 'em :p

    But it is ok to bankrupt VW. They are not American B)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    They are not going to be bankrupted either. VW employs directly or indirectly a number of Americans as well. VW just needs to stop the posturing and get a settlement negotiated. Dragging it out will just cost them more and expose them to more press and bad publicity. You and I both know it won't be any $48M unless the idiots at VW let it get into the unpredictability of the court system. If the US starts throwing huge fines on companies, US consumers will be paying more for less choice. Not going to happen unless VW steps on their own crank.
  • carboy21carboy21 Member Posts: 760
    Straw man argument. We are talking about violation of emissions law.
    Agreed .  Environment is more valuable then human lives . It is criminal to pollute the environment but ok to take human lives due to criminal negligence  B)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    Environment IS human life. If you don't think so, try not breathing for 5 minutes. :)

    Still a straw man argument. Why not drag in the Corvair? Because we are focusing on VW cheating on emissions laws and the possible effects of this scandal on sales.

    This is quite different than Toyota's sludge, Audi's sudden acceleration, or GM's ignition keys. This is a very clear cut case of culpability. VW doesn't even have a case to defend.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Dr. Dieter drubs vDubs.

    "An emissions scandal like the one engulfing Volkswagen would not be possible at Daimler, Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche said on Thursday in an unusual dig at another carmaker.

    In general, he does not criticise competitors, Zetsche said at a reception in the German capital.

    "But with the VW affair, there is nothing else to do," he said, because the scandal affected the whole auto sector."

    Daimler boss criticises VW over emissions scandal (Reuters)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This is quite different than Toyota's sludge, Audi's sudden acceleration, or GM's ignition keys. This is a very clear cut case of culpability. VW doesn't even have a case to defend.

    They have a great defense if it was in fact Bosch the developed the software and did not tell anyone at VW.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    If Bosch is doing that, then other cars may well join the fray. But legally, if Bosch was the sub to VW, VW may still be on the hook as prime. Even if VW withdraws from the US market, the US can still go after them with a court decision and attach overseas assets. No different than what has gone on with Iran over the years. I don't see VW being able to walk away from this for "free".
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2016
    It is the media that has convicted VW not the courts. And the plaintiffs must consider Bosch an accessory to the cheating or they would not have included them in the lawsuit.

    German auto supplier Robert Bosch GmbH has been accused of conspiring with Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) to evade diesel emissions standards in at least 11 million vehicles worldwide in a class action lawsuit filed late on Monday.

    The lawsuit filed by a New York diesel owner in U.S. District Court in Detroit names Bosch - the world's largest auto supplier - along with VW, former VW CEO Martin Winterkorn and VW U.S. chief Michael Horn.

    "Volkswagen's fraudulent scheme was facilitated and aided and abetted by defendant Bosch, which created the software used in Volkswagen's defeat device," said the 56-page lawsuit, which accuses the parties of violating civil racketeering laws and consumer fraud.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-bosch-idUSKBN0TK5OK20151201
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I wonder if the lawsuit filed in Alabama means I could get triple what I paid for my Touareg? I'm thinking a couple criminal types at VW knew about the Bosch cheating software. Making Bosch the primary cheater and VW just another victim of Bosch?

    "Under American law, that decision to profit from what Bosch knew was Volkswagen's ongoing fraud makes Bosch and aider and abettor of that crime and a RICO co-conspirator with Volkswagen that is jointly liable for treble the damages that Volkswagen's fraud has caused U.S. consumers," reads the amended suit.

    http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/10/volkswagen_suit_in_alabama_gro.html
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Go for it...even if VW exits the market, there are EU banks in the US, so you can attach their funds that way. Same goes for Bosch. B)

    But VW will settle because it will be cheaper and faster than entertaining all kinds of individual lawsuits. So it looks like your money will be going to the US Treasury! But you can join a class action I'm sure. Might get you a coupon or a few hundred bucks.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Maybe not if there was a mandatory binding arbitration clause in the contract when you purchased your VW.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    Maybe not if there was a mandatory binding arbitration clause in the contract when you purchased your VW.

    That is possible. I am not a fan of lawyers so will just be happy with my $1000 goodwill gift. I don't feel cheated in the least. I have always felt EPA/CARB had it in for diesels and have done everything in their power to keep them off the market. The EPA is the major cause of GW with their insistence on putting more carbon in the air with inefficient gas engines. They have done very little good since getting the lead out of gasoline. Then finally getting the sulfur out of diesel. Just a bunch of over paid civil service plonkers trying to justify their existence.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Maybe not if there was a mandatory binding arbitration clause in the contract when you purchased your VW

    Not sure that will be valid in cases of fraud or other felony convictions. That tends to void a lot of commercial agreements.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The media didn't "convict" anyone. VW confessed. The media just reported the confession. As for Bosch, bringing them in just makes it worse for VW if you ask me. Bosch will hang VW out to dry if the pressure is on them.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Bosch created the cheat software. The question will be did they actually let VW people know it was installed in the VW TDIs in question. Who did they tell and was it an official traceable document or just a text message to the janitor? VW's official comment was yes we see there is cheat software and we will take responsibility. That does not mean they will Bosch off the hook.

    MUNICH -- Robert Bosch warned Volkswagen in 2007 that it would be illegal to use engine management software at the heart of the diesels emissions scandal in production cars, German newspaper Bild am Sonntag said.

    VW was also warned by one of its own engineers in 2011 about illegal emissions testing practices, a report in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung's Sunday edition said, citing initial results of a VW internal investigation.

    Bild am Sonntag said Bosch supplied diesel software to VW for test purposes but it ended up in vehicles on the road. Bosch wrote to VW saying that such use was unlawful, according to the paper's report, which did not cite sources.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20150927/COPY01/309279989/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    If you like your car, it's holding up well and you are going to keep it for quite awhile, the increasing VW depreciation rate kind of becomes a non-issue. VW v. Bosch - well, now Merkel's got another internal issue. It will be fun to watch lawyers go at it somewhere besides the US for a change too.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I saw in the WSJ that Renault is now under investigation for possible diesel emissions cheating. Meanwhile, South Korea is now going after VW criminally. I wonder if VW is just the tip of the iceberg on emissions testing validity and if SK represents a building backlash against all of this around the globe?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    Something is rotten in Wolfsburg perhaps?

    Popular Mechanics recently (Jan 16th) did an editorial in which they speculate that this might signal the end of the diesel car in America. And this was from a journalist who is a known diesel fan boy.

    I don't expect that leaving the U.S. diesel market will hurt VW all that much, numbers-wise, but their reputation as a whole could suffer.

    GM, Toyota had their "bad days" and now I guess it's VWs turn.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Maybe elsewhere as well given potential Renault.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    Renault has already agreed to a recall on the emissions question. 15,000 cars initially plus more later. All will just need a software fix it sounds like. (Reuters)

    Renault's shares got hammered today. But whose didn't?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Sometimes I wonder about diesel pickup trucks. Are they under emissions rules? Seems like they all smell bad, but the Ford's in particular really stink badly. Although I think some Ford's have Ford diesels, while others of theirs use IH ones, so that may make a difference in their stench.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Trucks and commercials have emissions rules, but they aren't nearly as stringent as cars, no doubt. I also suspect they aren't enforced - just look for a coal rolling dbag. Gotta be business friendly - emissions controls would mean the business owner can't get a new Escalade for his wife this year.
    berri said:

    Sometimes I wonder about diesel pickup trucks. Are they under emissions rules? Seems like they all smell bad, but the Ford's in particular really stink badly. Although I think some Ford's have Ford diesels, while others of theirs use IH ones, so that may make a difference in their stench.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    berri said:

    Sometimes I wonder about diesel pickup trucks. Are they under emissions rules? Seems like they all smell bad, but the Ford's in particular really stink badly. Although I think some Ford's have Ford diesels, while others of theirs use IH ones, so that may make a difference in their stench.

    I think Ford 6.4 and 6.7 have lots of problems that make them burn dirty after a few years of ownership. The 6.0 is a good engine though. The 7.3 is an antique I guess but very sturdy. Just not up to current emissions standards.

    Lots of maintenance required on diesels. Not as care-free as advertised.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Diesel pickups have been in pretty continuous production for years, so I end up behind a stinky older (5+ year) truck pretty often. Hate 'em. Newer ones don't seem to be as stinky.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    OK guys, how is this for a future scenario among these 3 automakers.

    Let's presume that VW will lose a lot of diesel car business. So who is in a position to pick up that market share? GM!

    Toyota is committed to hybrids, so they're out of it.

    Now, once the Germans move in on Tesla, it'll probably go belly up, which will leave the low-end EV market to......GM!

    So there's definitely a chance for GM to gain market share on Toyota.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    edited January 2016
    Today's news described how Audi's been redirected to focus on EVs and hydrogen to spruce up VW's green creds...

    http://jalopnik.com/audi-focusing-on-electric-cars-as-reparations-for-diese-1754186805
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Audi and MB are in a good position to knock Tesla out of the box.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Would VW survive in the U.S.?

    Gefter, citing the Ford, GM and Toyota’s brush with scandal, thinks it can.

    “Eventually this VW scandal will become a thing of the past. The combination of money, actions taken on behalf of the consumer, a brilliant public relations plan and some new technology/models will help them endure the tough road ahead,” Gefter said.

    Cornell’s Wheaton is optimistic too.

    “Yes and I don’t think in five years time it will be much different from now. It’s not a very big player in the U.S. and never even came close to 10 per cent of the market,” he said."

    Dealers, States Pose Bigger Theoretical Threat To Volkswagen Than EPA (Forbes)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This is more what I am thinking.

    A lawsuit filed on behalf of the EPA by the Department of Justice seeks up to $48 billion in fines. Wheaton said though that the EPA likes to start out with a big, scary number, then negotiate it down, so it’s possible $48 billion could become, say, $100 million.

    As for all the silly people like Melnyk, after a few Lemon Law losses it will be hard finding attorneys that will waste their time pro bono. If Melnyk was paying his attorney you think he would be so belligerent. VW can write off millions to attorney fees. Not sure they can do that with buying back vehicles?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    stever said:

    "Would VW survive in the U.S.?

    Gefter, citing the Ford, GM and Toyota’s brush with scandal, thinks it can.

    “Eventually this VW scandal will become a thing of the past. The combination of money, actions taken on behalf of the consumer, a brilliant public relations plan and some new technology/models will help them endure the tough road ahead,” Gefter said.

    Cornell’s Wheaton is optimistic too.

    “Yes and I don’t think in five years time it will be much different from now. It’s not a very big player in the U.S. and never even came close to 10 per cent of the market,” he said."

    Dealers, States Pose Bigger Theoretical Threat To Volkswagen Than EPA (Forbes)

    VW will be ok but I'm not so sure of the diesel car passenger market. The public ire is focused on the diesel products (that ire coming from both buyers and dealers).

  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think VW will survive in the US. There is a decent sized segment of car buyers that like German vehicle driving traits. VW offers that at an affordable price. No different than Toyota owning a big chunk of the buying segment that values comfort, reliability and economy.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Toyota is still number one with car shoppers around the globe, retaining the title of the world's top-selling carmaker for the fourth straight year.

    The Volkswagen Group in Germany placed 2nd behind Toyota, as 2015 sales fell 2 percent to 9.9 million. VW had to halt sales of diesel models in some markets and will recall some of those models to repair or replace faulty emissions control systems.

    General Motors nearly closed the gap with VW, as the U.S. automaker saw global sales rise 0.2 percent to 9.8 million, largely on strength in China and its home market."

    Toyota Retains Crown as World's Top-Selling Automaker
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    the new Chevy Bolt might push them over the edge, especially when VW pays the bill for retrofitting all those TDIs that can't be fixed with software.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I still think sales crowns are dumb goals because people usually end up doing dumb things to achieve it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    More Good News for GM. Of course, all this isn't over yet.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450

    the new Chevy Bolt might push them over the edge, especially when VW pays the bill for retrofitting all those TDIs that can't be fixed with software.

    I wonder if it would not be cheaper for VW to buy back anyone's VW diesel that feels ripped off, and ship them elsewhere for sale. VW could fix the ones that have to be tested in the 9 states. After all the alleged cheat software went in before any states tested diesel cars. How can you cheat a test that does not exist?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Same way you can enforce retroactive smog testing, which many states now do.

    I'm not sure what VW will do with those cars that can't be fixed with software. They'd have to install a UREA system, with all the tanks, plumbing and electronic controls. Even if VW worked it all out at HQ, it would still take a technician at least a full day to retrofit each car. And there are some...what?....400,000 of them give or take that would require retrofits?

    You bring up an interesting point though, about VW just buying them up and dumping them in states that don't care what comes out of cars' tailpipes. That might create all kinds of snarls though with interstate commerce. And I'm not sure any state would suffer the indignity of being VW's toxic waste dump, even if the toxicity is more symbolic than a real threat.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I'd be surprised if the EPA allowed interstate dumping of non-complying cars. It's not just a state issue.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I meant a different country. They have empty ships leaving the US. Take them to Africa. I doubt Mexico would have a problem with them. Iran is an emerging market for cars. Either offer a trade to a gasser or a new improved diesel model. I would trade up to a 2017 Touareg TDI, if the deal was good.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2016
    I suspect if they bought them back they'd scrap them or auction them off to other countries, with the buyers absorbing shipping costs. I bet places like India, Indonesia and Vietnam would take a bunch.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Oh, yeah, ready market elsewhere, and these would be a major improvement in many places.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Volkswagen failed because it lost its moxie in China. In the beginning of last year, wire services predicted that Toyota would lose its global sales crown on the Chinese battlefield. By the end of the year, just the opposite had happened: Volkswagen lost Chinese customers, and along with them its chance to achieve the targeted global domination. Volkswagen now is sitting on the idle capacity Toyota refused to build."

    How Volkswagen Really Blew It: It Was China, Not Dieselgate (Forbes0
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The explosion in the steel plant reminds us once more how tightly connected and often fragile even the heaviest of industries are. Production depends on on-time deliveries by suppliers around the world, and some disasters simply are not plannable."

    Exploding Steel Mill Disrupts Toyota (Forbes)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    JIT inventory has a price. I guess it depends on whether buyers hold off buying until JIT resolved or turn to a competitor instead. Not really any different than retail store stock outs really.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If you considered a small car but ended up buying something larger, a reporter wants to talk with you. Please email PR@edmunds.com by Friday, 2/5/16 with a few words about your decision including the make and model that you chose.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    VW disaster news of the day:

    [VW] had found "irregularites" with the amount of CO2 pumped out by 800,000 of its vehicles.
    While this is only a fraction of the 11m diesel engines VW has previously admitted it fitted with "defeat devices" so they could beat emissions tests, the news is potentially more serious.

    This raises the possibility that the company's entire range of vehicles may have been cheating to hit pollution control targets."

    Crisis-hit Volkswagen's troubles worsen as internal investigation reveals inconsistencies in the amount of CO2 emitted by diesel and petrol cars (telegraph.co.uk0
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    CO2 = mpgs...wonder what's up?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2016
    Something - but not VW's stock after that news hit. ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    More news that could impact VW the sales race:

    "In what has already evolved into a sprawling court battle filled with legal stars, all of the cases against Volkswagen have been assigned by a special national panel to San Francisco U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer, a veteran of some of the Bay Area's most high-profile cases and brother of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer."

    Volkswagen scandal: legal assault lands in San Francisco courts (mercurynews.com)

    VW replaces head of U.S. legal department (timesfreepress.com)

    "German automaker Volkswagen saw its sales in the United Kingdom fall by 13.9 percent in January, compared to the same month a year ago. The fourth consecutive dip in its monthly sales — since the company’s emissions-cheating device in its diesel cars came to light — happened even as sales of new cars in the U.K. grew by almost 3 percent."

    Volkswagen Emissions Scandal Impact Continues (ibtimes.com)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Here's the shake-out on GM:

    "The Detroit-based manufacturer of Chevrolet Silverado pickup trucks and Cadillac CT6 sedans said Wednesday it earned a record profit of $9.7 billion in 2015 and beat Wall Street estimates in its fourth-quarter numbers.

    "It was a strong year on many fronts, capped with record sales and earnings, and a substantial return of capital to our shareholders," GM’s Chief Executive Mary Barra said in the release of the earnings statement.

    While GM is struggling in South America and Europe, North American growth checked in at 5 percent for 2015 and 3 percent for the Asia-Pacific/Middle East/Africa regions.

    GM is a major presence in China, but the numbers show how little the company actually makes from its dozen joint ventures in the world’s largest auto market. "

    General Motors Record 2015 Profit (ibtimes.com)
Sign In or Register to comment.