A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

stever · July 2016

Each component tests itself. If it can't communicate with the other component, then you know it's in the connection between the components.

The printer comes on and self-tests. The A/B switch comes on and self tests. Nothing happens when the signal is sent for the print job, ergo it's the connection.

Now lose the copper wiring and your self test flips an error - the sending transmitter or the printer receiver has a glitch. Simplify and cut out the middleman (the copper and the tech). Profit.

stever · July 2016

guitarzan said:
John Deere repairs anyone?

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/07/25/farmers-fight-for-right-to-repair-their-own-tractors.html

We were discussing that one last year - here's a post from @thecardoc3 to save him having to retype everything.

What your link doesn't say is that a farmer could hack the Deere code and literally change his $100,000 tractor into a $150,000 one - same tractor, just that Deere charges more for the better model, which is essentially some software enhancements to give the tractor more power and capabilities than the base model.

guitarzan · July 2016

stever said:
Now lose the copper wiring and your self test flips an error

What is the replacement for copper? Optical? If they replace terminals that corrode and wiring that shorts, you're right, the majority of mysteries vaporize.

stever · July 2016

I'm thinking something like RF. You're already driving around in a pseudo Faraday cage that you could tweak to block stray signals and solve the hacking issues. Of course, most of the components are already shielded anyway but that would make the survivalists happy.

guitarzan · July 2016

You talk about shielding but my digital rabbit ears lose reception when certain vehicles drive by.

If the RF components were made for an F-14, I'd say yea great. They won't be though. Trading a simple wire for a more complex planned-obsolescence component built in China, with 100 soldered connections, subject to heat and vibration? If you call lots of swaps of this component "better", maybe. But in terms of robust operation over years, this sounds on par with Chevy-grade wiring.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

I think that a lot of people still don't get their head around the reality that an automobile is an extremely hostile environment for electronics.

As for farmers hacking their tractor codes, that sounds like something out of WIRED magazine, where futurists all get together to guess wrong about the next 20 years.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

stever said:
Not to shift gears in mid-thread, but wanted to share this service review, since @thecardoc3 should appreciate it.

Ah, he brought his own part in? I'm surprised the dealership would even allow that. He should own a MINI--the actuator is a mere $224 without labor.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

The only rational solution I see for owners of 2016 cars is to LEASE THEM. It's going to be Hell out there fixing some of these cars down the road.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
The only rational solution I see for owners of 2016 cars is to LEASE THEM. It's going to be Hell out there fixing some of these cars down the road.

It's been hell fixing cars for years, too many chiefs and not enough Indians. What has made it really tough is that the chiefs in most cases don't know that the occasional splash of knowledge that they do have isn't enough to lift them from the ranks of the clueless.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
Ah, he brought his own part in? I'm surprised the dealership would even allow that. He should own a MINI--the actuator is a mere $224 without labor.

It appears he ordered the part at the dealer and simply wanted them to install it when he brought the truck in and then communication broke down. From there, it sounds like the dealer stuck to their guns and didn't just relying on his assessment "AND $96.50 for an electrical test that was completely unnecessary given that I personally had confirmed the Actuator was faulty before I went to Berkeley Ford and ordered new Actuator"

"IF" he really did test and prove the actuator had failed, why didn't he do the whole job himself?
Every time a shop lets someone else try and take control of a service event the chances of it going sideways on them rises exponentially. They might as well go downtown and play three card Monty because the "finish line" will keep moving until everyone has been beaten and broken for having tried.

What If. He was right with his "diagnosis" and they just replaced the part? And then;
Something else was discovered to not be working correctly. How much do you want to bet the tech would be blamed for the other problem? By testing first and making sure what works and what doesn't the dealer and tech both have at least a chance of protecting themselves. Then if something goes wrong it's on them because there is proof that it was working correctly.

What If. He was wrong with his "diagnosis"? If they don't test and prove what is going on experience has taught us that;
They will be wrong for having installed the part.
or,
They will be blamed for damaging the part during the installation.
or
They will be accused of not actually installing the part.
or,
Feel free to add any classic false complaint that allows for the shop to be wrong and the owner to be a victim.

Ultimately I would not be surprised if his "diagnostics" were limited to Google and that isn't sufficient to begin a repair, no matter how common a given problem is. He no more confirmed what the failure really was than anyone here has.

roadburner · July 2016

If I'm 99% sure of what the problem-and I have the ability to replace/correct the issue in question- I obtain the part and fix it myself(see: E39 trunk latch actuator). If I'm not that certain I might still go ahead and attempt a "best guess" fix if the part is inexpensive enough and there isn't much labor involved(Triumph T3 starter relay). Beyond that I rely on the experts- the techs at the dealer where I work. Or my local indie shop, in the case of the Wrangler. Aside from those two places, the only other shops I use are a local family owned tire store and a small body shop.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

If I were a technician, I'd never rely on the customer's diagnosis. I mean, I would treat it with respect but I'd have to verify the problem, unless the issue was so patently obvious that a test would be ridiculous, e.g.," I backed into the garage and broke my tail light lens, please replace it." or "my glove box lock is broken".

RE: Fixing 2016 cars in the future: As bad as it looks now, Doc, it's going to be 10X worse soon enough. Not only are engines reaching, dare we say, MAXIMUM levels of practical complexity, but overlaying that is all this info-tainment junk and "driver assist" technology, which is both a benefit and a curse.

Who is going to fix 10 year old obsolete collision avoidance radar? I'll tell you who---- a few very VERY expensive specialists who have a shop a long way from your house.

On top of those challenges, we are facing the somewhat ludicrous scenario of an engine or transmission failure totaling a perfectly otherwise good, clean, 5 or 6 year old used car that was bought for $30K or $40K.

I fear the trip to the junkyard is getting shorter and shorter.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

stever said:
What your link doesn't say is that a farmer could hack the Deere code and literally change his $100,000 tractor into a $150,000 one - same tractor,

Please prove that this is accurate and not just parroting someone else that doesn't actually know what they are talking about.

stever said:

just that Deere charges more for the better model, which is essentially some software enhancements to give the tractor more power and capabilities than the base model.

The stories that I have seen amount to people trying to work around safety devices etc. Just trying to get more power out of the machine leads to the question of what is that doing to the emissions output? There is much more to this discussion than what is commonly represented.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

Well let's just say it---those people tweaking their diesel trucks to much higher HP really don't care about emissions.

roadburner · July 2016

I'm so glad my mower dealer "forgot" to connect the switch that turns off the mower when the my ZTR is in reverse. That asinine "safety feature" would add a good 20% to my mowing time.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:

RE: Fixing 2016 cars in the future: As bad as it looks now, Doc, it's going to be 10X worse soon enough. Not only are engines reaching, dare we say, MAXIMUM levels of practical complexity, but overlaying that is all this info-tainment junk and "driver assist" technology, which is both a benefit and a curse.

This isn't a career for someone who struggled in school. It's a badly outdated stereotype that suggests sending someone who isn't good at math, sciences, and written English should go to shop class.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Who is going to fix 10 year old obsolete collision avoidance radar? I'll tell you who---- a few very VERY expensive specialists who have a shop a long way from your house.

I got a better one, "Why should someone learn to be that technician in the first place?"

That specialist would have to be expensive because of the tooling and education involved, not to mention how often he/she would actually get to work on something. There has to be a reward for working that hard, which BTW currently does not exist. Before I felt compelled to visit and get active here when did anyone really demonstrate what it takes to do the work as demanded by the cars of the last decade? Even then how exactly was the last example received? How many looked at those scope captures and said to themselves "Wow, I thought I knew how to do this, and here I had no idea just what it really takes!"

When I first came here everywhere I looked I saw many variations of the same theme such as the praise for the toy scan tools like CarMD and techs insulted as part of the sales pitch for it. That has changed to a point but there is still way to much of that kind of stuff going on and it is still having an impact on people who could be great technicians if the trade really had something comparable to offer them career wise.

When the day comes that everyone recognizes that for a technician to move out of the bays represents a step down and not up, then we will make some progress.

Mr_Shiftright said:

On top of those challenges, we are facing the somewhat ludicrous scenario of an engine or transmission failure totaling a perfectly otherwise good, clean, 5 or 6 year old used car that was bought for $30K or $40K.

I fear the trip to the junkyard is getting shorter and shorter.

Make a list here. In one column place the people who would be hurt by shorter vehicle lifespans, and in the other column put the people who would benefit.

guitarzan · July 2016

d

Mr_Shiftright said:
Well let's just say it---those people tweaking their diesel trucks to much higher HP really don't care about emissions.

Yes, so people should understand in such cases it is typically the the EPA driving these types of law, not any practical legal reason, copyright protection, etc.

Also, regarding disabling safety devices - this is a free society, isn't it? This isn't Russia? Is this Russia?

guitarzan · July 2016

roadburner said:
I'm so glad my mower dealer "forgot" to connect the switch that turns off the mower when the my ZTR is in reverse. That asinine "safety feature" would add a good 20% to my mowing time.

I have a rope tied around the bar that must be squeezed together to prevent it from stalling. Yes, I change the bag with the blade moving, just like I did in 1980. Guess I'm just insanely dangerous.

guitarzan · July 2016

thecardoc3 said:

Make a list here. In one column place the people who would be hurt by shorter vehicle lifespans, and in the other column put the people who would benefit.

The biggest failure to me is the EPA is in total control of car design, but, the shorter lifespan of the vehicle, the extreme complexity of systems like transmissions, and the energy and water used to produce them, is catastrophic for the environment. I would say this is "ironic", but this is government so it is more expected than irony.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

guitarzan said:
d
Mr_Shiftright said:
Well let's just say it---those people tweaking their diesel trucks to much higher HP really don't care about emissions.
Yes, so people should understand in such cases it is typically the the EPA driving these types of law, not any practical legal reason, copyright protection, etc.

Also, regarding disabling safety devices - this is a free society, isn't it? This isn't Russia? Is this Russia?

Hmmm....no, I don't think disabling safety devices is a "right". This is the old helmet law argument. However, I'd be okay with letting folks disable safety devices if they signed a waiver giving away all rights to medical care at public expense or public subsidy. That way their "rights" and my "rights" are balanced out.

Regarding circumventing emissions laws, I don't think I could compromise because I have to breathe the air they pollute, so even if we charged them a pollution tax, it would create more harm than good. I might accept a heavy pollution tax as an interim solution, however, if the polluter were transitioning to a cleaner vehicle.

Naturally for the mechanic, any tampering with safety or pollution devices is financial suicide, so that's out of the question for them.

guitarzan · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
However, I'd be okay with letting folks disable safety devices if they signed a waiver giving away all rights to medical care at public expense or public subsidy. That way their "rights" and my "rights" are balanced out.

Nice thoughts, and I agree with most of your concrete examples. As a motorcycle rider I think that riding without a helmet is moronic. In contrast I totally reject having to pay for air bags that may never be used in my lifetime, and actually become a danger with age. So there are some strong contrasts even within this same family of regulations.

In the spirit of this though, we would all like people to sign a waver that they won't dial 911 for events that they should handle themselves. But people who do so, without any insurance, use more healthcare dollars in one ambulance trip than us responsible people have used in in our lifetime. We see that in a free society there simply is no signing away, granted, not rights, but say financial instruments that we have all agreed to share. It is invalid for you to use this argument for something that we all previously agreed against.

I guess, despite that I hate complexity, how about if insurance offers a line-item, "customer regularly alters safety devices on consumer products." Depending on the cost, most likely I would sign this.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Regarding circumventing emissions laws, I don't think I could compromise because I have to breathe the air they pollute...

Unless we mandate things like people may not use trucks or SUVs without a minimum of 4 passengers, than life is full of compromises. Such is the silliness of the government's all-encompassing regulations. We have an entire freeway full of single occupant 5,000 lb SUVs but somehow you choose to harp on the farmer who may want 20 hp more out of his tractor (or whatever the case may be.) It boils down to, you want perfectly clean air? Then you need a totalitarian EPA. I believe in an "out" from such. Note I have never altered EPA equipment, but this is different from believing that there should be some sort of freedom to do so. And my example above shows that perfectly clean air is somewhat of an illusion, despite a million regulations, and always will be.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Would you like to not have pollution controls? Imagine what This would be like today , with roughly double the population.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

Personally I think the EPA has been the single best motivator of innovation for the automobile industry since Henry Ford. That was probably not their intention, but there you go.

stever · July 2016

thecardoc3 said:

stever said:
What your link doesn't say is that a farmer could hack the Deere code and literally change his $100,000 tractor into a $150,000 one - same tractor,
Please prove that this is accurate and not just parroting someone else that doesn't actually know what they are talking about.

Here's one story from Bloomberg - "There are various versions of AutoTrac, the GPS-linked system that lets the tractor do the driving itself, and of JDLink, which allows farmers and dealers to monitor tractors remotely."

Deere isn't doing anything special with some of the options, just turning on code to enable stuff.

kyfdx · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
Personally I think the EPA has been the single best motivator of innovation for the automobile industry since Henry Ford. That was probably not their intention, but there you go.

I agree with that. Most of the complexity of newer cars is due to fuel efficiency standards (and, by extension, less emissions).

stever · July 2016

thecardoc3 said:
Would you like to not have pollution controls? Imagine what This would be like today , with roughly double the population.

That's a new one for me. Sounds worse than Centralia.

Pennsylvania has some fun history. Guess VW picked up a few tips while they had their factory in Westmoreland.

And this service experience for the annual inspection makes me glad I don't have to deal with that.

roadburner · July 2016

stever said:

And this service experience for the annual inspection makes me glad I don't have to deal with that.

Annual inspections in KY were a joke as well- an open invitation for less scrupulous shops to try and pad their bottom line by scamming people with no other alternatives...

guitarzan · July 2016

roadburner said:

stever said:

And this service experience for the annual inspection makes me glad I don't have to deal with that.
Annual inspections in KY were a joke as well- an open invitation for less scrupulous shops to try and pad their bottom line by scamming people with no other alternatives...

Reminds me, I recall a friend pumping gas at BP. BP provided a commission of something like a quarter for each quart of BP oil sold. Guess what? Every single car that came in got a quart of oil.

Never let it be said that the government is smart enough to take into account human nature.

guitarzan · July 2016

kyfdx said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
Personally I think the EPA has been the single best motivator of innovation for the automobile industry since Henry Ford. That was probably not their intention, but there you go.
I agree with that. Most of the complexity of newer cars is due to fuel efficiency standards (and, by extension, less emissions).

And, after 10 years and 100k miles, when a tranny that cost 4-5k to rebuild, sends the entire vehicle with all of the energy and resources that went into manufacturing it, to an early grave? Or I don't know, mechanics here, how long will the vehicle actually "go"? Maybe someone buys this used vehicle and drives around getting 10 mpg for the next 5 years. But the rules are so loose on high mileage vehicles (hey, we can't have regressive, unfair taxes on the poor, can we?) this putrid vehicle does in fact pass the EPA inspection LOL.

Make sure you include the environmental impact of all of this in the analysis.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

stever said:

And this service experience for the annual inspection makes me glad I don't have to deal with that.

I just got off the phone with the dealership service manager. She is well aware of Mr. Navigator. She pointed out to him and I totally agree with her that the accusation of a technician taking something apart to make it fail just to (at best) get to take it back apart in order to fix it doesn't pass the sniff test. The techs are flat rate. Doing a job twice for any reason and only getting paid once for the effort doesn't make any sense, yet that is what would have to occur in order for this story to be accurate. Besides, the guy is known to them and they know his visit wouldn't generate any work because he always say's no and tries to do everything himself. It's sad how few people realize that it also doesn't make any sense to do something like this to someone's car when you know the first thing out of their mouths will be accusing you of it. Why would anyone invite such a conflict that cannot be won? I can well imagine the tech upon seeing a lamp out dreading reporting it because he/she already knows how this customer is going to act. When I worked for someone else I had to take abuse like that under the heading of the customer is always right. Working for myself when someone with Mr. Navigators attitude showed up I had no problem handing them their keys and letting them know that they needed to find someone else to take care of their cars. Over the years FWIW some of them have tried to come back in and on a case by case basis I have permitted it.

I asked her about the coupon and told her I'd be commenting on that as well. Businesses that market with coupons like that deserve exactly who they attract. People like Mr. Navigator. Now sure there is a side of it that marketing is important and getting new prospective customers to check out the business makes sense, but the real cost of such marketing is having to deal with the fallout from Mr. Navigators. She told me that the coupons are a major headache, but she doesn't have control over that. How much do you want to bet that there will be some re-evaluating of their advertising strategies after this?

As we talked, she also told me that she desperately needs two qualified techs but can't find any, and has complete faith in the tech that was assigned to Mr. Navigators car. What made him angrier than anything was that he failed to get under her skin and have her give away the store to try to make him happy.

stever · July 2016

You friend is welcome to comment on the review.

Dunno, I hear just enough of these stories to be glad I'm not in a state where the inspections are required. Even if everyone is fair and square, that's still an hour out of your day messing around with them.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

stever said:
You friend is welcome to comment on the review.

Dunno, I hear just enough of these stories to be glad I'm not in a state where the inspections are required. Even if everyone is fair and square, that's still an hour out of your day messing around with them.

I don't think you can attempt to write this off by alleging that she is a friend of mine. I've never met her before and she was reluctant to even talk to me at first. As far as them commenting on it, don't hold your breath waiting for them to do so. It's no different for them then it is from the techs perspective of being accused of doing something wrong so they end up having to deal with the problem and not get paid for their effort, which BTW goes right back to the sniff test. Try and explain the logic that a tech would have to use in sabotaging something, which would take time to do, only to end up not getting paid to then fix it in order to pacify an irate customer. That's two service routines that wouldn't result in earning anything. That aspect alone pretty much prevents the misdeed from occurring. They have nothing to gain for the effort and only stand to lose for trying. The dealership as well has nothing to gain by responding to Mr. Navigator, so why waste the time?

I have a motto.

"When something goes wrong it doesn't matter who is to blame, what matters is what did YOU do to fix it."

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

The only way to be sure is to send in a "dummy" car that has been rigged to detect tampering and see what happens. Without evidence I have no way to judge a situation other than to know that one of the two parties is either lying or mistaken.

stever · July 2016

We get quite a few dealers commenting on service reviews so that they can get their side of the story across. Makes the dealers seem more real and human and how stores deal with complaints often generates more good will than a generic "they're great" review does. We aren't Yelp - we actually monitor the reviews that get posted and try to weed out the fraud.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

guitarzan said:

kyfdx said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
Personally I think the EPA has been the single best motivator of innovation for the automobile industry since Henry Ford. That was probably not their intention, but there you go.
I agree with that. Most of the complexity of newer cars is due to fuel efficiency standards (and, by extension, less emissions).
And, after 10 years and 100k miles, when a tranny that cost 4-5k to rebuild, sends the entire vehicle with all of the energy and resources that went into manufacturing it, to an early grave? Or I don't know, mechanics here, how long will the vehicle actually "go"? Maybe someone buys this used vehicle and drives around getting 10 mpg for the next 5 years. But the rules are so loose on high mileage vehicles (hey, we can't have regressive, unfair taxes on the poor, can we?) this putrid vehicle does in fact pass the EPA inspection LOL.

Make sure you include the environmental impact of all of this in the analysis.

That's why I like California's stricter emissions testing and strong environmental laws. I'm sure it makes some people angry and costs some people more money, but having lived in areas where there is nothing but "pollution anarchy"---no thanks.

No reason a modern car cannot operate cleanly and efficiently with no major intervention for 150K. After that, one has to wonder about the catalytic (unless you own a MINI, where the catalytics routinely fall to pieces at just over the Federal warranty). You don't see a lot of newish cars these days that burn valves and run on dead cylinders, or consume huge amounts of oil (certain GM products excepted).

thecardoc3 · July 2016

stever said:
We get quite a few dealers commenting on service reviews ......We aren't Yelp - we actually monitor the reviews that get posted and try to weed out the fraud.

An employee of the dealer has to take time out of their day to respond and by doing that they put themselves in the crosshairs for a share of the blame if things go sideways. Plus there would be no shortage of pressure to "make it right" for the guy once they respond and then even if he truly is the one perpetuating the fraud he wins. It's a no-win situation for the dealer and its employees and its less expensive and painful to just walk away and leave this behind them.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

Well, see how you feel next time you spend $40,000 on a car and it takes a dump on the freeway. Not too cheery, I would guess.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
Well, see how you feel next time you spend $40,000 on a car and it takes a dump on the freeway. Not too cheery, I would guess.

What? Who has 40K for a new car?

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

You need an agent to get you more per hour. I mean, if you can fix cars that nobody else in your area can fix, you basically have the customer as a hostage.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
You need an agent to get you more per hour. I mean, if you can fix cars that nobody else in your area can fix, you basically have the customer as a hostage.

Now there is the fundamental disconnect. How does a shop/technician turn the customer into a hostage by being committed to being the best that they can be? I stopped at and helped out two shops today who were in trouble with cars that they had taken in, on top of three that I took care of in my shop that were sent to me by other shops. (I have four more coming just like them tomorrow) Nobody became a hostage because I worked harder over the years and invested in tooling that went above and beyond the average shop. Should I get to make more than I do right now? It would be nice then maybe I would have actually turned a profit this week since I had to spend $$$$ to renew the subscription to one of my scan tools in order to help one of the customers. The tool turns off when the subscription expires, so it was spend the money or send them away. They weren't held hostage, they got their car correctly diagnosed and repaired "at a fair price" for this area. It cost me three times what they spent to do it for them.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

Specialists in all fields charge more than the run of the mill. Your root canal specialist does, your eye surgeon does, your high-powered lawyer does, your Ferrari mechanic does, your cabinet maker does.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Wait, a moment ago I was holding them hostage, now I am supposed to charge more? What happened to needing to have a "fair" price? (not that anybody has ever been able to define fair)

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

Well that's the whole idea of taking hostages Doc.

I should be your business manager.

What could be more "fair" than telling the customer the hourly rate (let's say, for you....oh, $110/hr) and then scrupulously adhering to charging for the time you spent.

I'm sure by the time you get some of these vehicles the owners have already learned that The Random Parts Throwing Machine is very expensive to operate.

stever · July 2016

thecardoc3 said:

stever said:
We get quite a few dealers commenting on service reviews ......We aren't Yelp - we actually monitor the reviews that get posted and try to weed out the fraud.
An employee of the dealer has to take time out of their day to respond and by doing that they put themselves in the crosshairs for a share of the blame if things go sideways. Plus there would be no shortage of pressure to "make it right" for the guy once they respond and then even if he truly is the one perpetuating the fraud he wins. It's a no-win situation for the dealer and its employees and its less expensive and painful to just walk away and leave this behind them.

I disagree - the smart dealers not only go out of their way to respond, and they appreciate the feedback. Many of them have a dedicated person who reads and responds to all the review sites. Many dealers respond to all the good reviews in addition to the occasional bad one. After all, no shop is perfect and screw-ups will happen. How the dealers respond says everything about the dealer.

roadburner · July 2016

stever said:

I disagree - the smart dealers not only go out of their way to respond, and they appreciate the feedback. Many of them have a dedicated person who reads and responds to all the review sites. Many dealers respond to all the good reviews in addition to the occasional bad one. After all, no shop is perfect and screw-ups will happen. How the dealers respond says everything about the dealer.

Precisely- that's how my dealership is set up...

thecardoc3 · July 2016

roadburner said:

Precisely- that's how my dealership is set up...

Show us how your dealer would respond to Mr. Navigator from the perspective that you didn't do anything wrong and are dealing with a scammer.

thecardoc3 · July 2016

Well that took real long. Park assist, lane assist, adaptive cruise issues. Just wait till you realize how many people are ready to deal with this technology especially when its a random failure.

Trouble trees are useless unless the failure is there 100% of the time. TSB's are little more than guesses until someone proves the information in the TSB applies this time. That means the tech has to be prepared, equipped and disciplined in their approach to investigate the system just like I demonstrated a week ago. Oh, and that tech also has to be willing to wrestle with this stuff while the people in the stalls next to him/her are turning 150% or more proficiency doing easier work.

isellhondas · July 2016

This story sounds hard to believe....but...

I know a woman who just bought a new BMW. I don't know the model number but it's a coupe with the retractable convertible top. At this point the car has 500 miles on it.

She went shopping last week and she loaded the trunk and placed some items in the path of the retractable arms.

When she went to lower the top, it stopped. Puzzled, she just put it back up. She called the dealer and explained what had happened. The Service Advisor asked her.." DID YOU TRY TO FORSE IT DOWN?"

She had not done this. He went on to tell her that if this happens, it basically TOTALS the car! They told her the parts need to fix the damage are $ 35,000 not counting labor!

Can this be true? she isn't one to make things up!

Mr_Shiftright · July 2016

Seems hyperbolic. Service advisors are not technicians, by a long stretch. I don't believe the story, but I do believe a repair would be pricey indeed.

Historically BMW tops have been a devil to repair. Typically German in their over-complexity. Just a new power motor on a Z4 could run you $3K in repairs, no problem, because of the effort to dig it out of there. Who knows with all the other hydraulics, sensors, micro switches, control modules on a brand-new BMW, to say nothing of possible structural damage to the top mechanism itself.

I bet there is some kind of guard in that trunk that must be in place when you are loading the trunk. Move or remove that, and you're in trouble.

You gotta pay to play if you want to twirl that Roundel on your keychain.

marsha7 · July 2016

I am posting this here because the activity on the MB site seems to be non-existent, and this space may have the best answers anyway...I figure the folks who work on the cars may have the best knowledge...

I am contemplating buying a used E350...what are the best years for this car?...also, I have been told that MB engines and transmissions are "sealed" so that only MB dealers can change the oil and tranny fluid, very expensive...if true, this is something I do not want, so, are there any years E350 that still have ordinary filler tubes for engine and transmission fluid? Thanks.

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