What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice · September 2016

andres3 said:
If you are averaging 40 MPG on the TDI you are either driving like a Prius or have an over-performing TDI?

I don't think my Wife gets 40 unless it is all highway.

I think it is the diesel we get in So CA. I always get better mileage with diesel bought out of state. Both highway and city. I have been adding Cetane booster and that may be helping. Lower mileage could be going up and down from 35 to 75 MPH on our freeways. I have noticed a couple MPG increase using Sinclair from the new station in town. I will fill there before heading to Oregon and see if it is an improvement. It is only a 10 cents more per gallon and 13 miles closer to home.

texases · September 2016

A Prius would get 45-55 mpg in those circumstances.

fintail · September 2016

I have a horrible grinding commute where I sometimes get up to 50 or so, but my average speed is virtually always below 20, and there's a bit of stopping. I get in the 25-28 range in the somewhat hefty AWD Bluetec, as opposed to 19-20 in the prior V6 gasoline car (or about 11-12 in the old V8 AMG). On the highway I've hit an indicated 47 over a 120 mile drive, even if that's 45, it's not bad for the comfort level.

xwesx · September 2016

I just dropped under a quarter-tank this morning, so I'll fill my car tomorrow. Currently, I have over 550 miles of local driving, and I haven't filled it up since I pulled into Fairbanks with it for the first time over two weeks ago. It's a good thing I won't have it long enough to get used to this! Having to fill up every 250-300 miles (local) could get rather annoying afterward.

kyfdx · September 2016

The Jetta wagon is rated 29/39, while my Audi A3 is rated 30/42. I'll guess that the gearing isn't identical across the models.

stever · September 2016

We got 20.2 today in the van driving to ABQ. Should have been 24 to 26.

Durn new tires. Mostly going 80 in a refrigerator box had nothing to do with it.

Bosch Knew VW Might Get Nailed For Diesel Cheating, Demanded Indemnification: Report (Jalopnik)

Renault sees diesel disappearing from most of its European cars (Reuters)

fintail · September 2016

That might be the best thing about EVs - they can't cheat. Creative accounting is accepted as the norm, and when you bribe your way into being allowed to exploit and process rare earths, you won't be held accountable for any damage.

ruking1 · September 2016

Evidently, those new tires on your vehicle offers 3.8 to 5.8 mpg of "resistance".

Bosch should blame that [non-permissible content removed]!?

As for Renault, they've been out of the US market for years, so I'm not sure how applicable their experience's are to the US market!? EV's will not reduce their "carbon " footprint". Despite all claims to the contrary. Someone that pays an electrical bill in the EU, can confirm if electricity is more than or less than my (penalty) rate of 24 cents per kWh. Just gasser products will not move the mpg football down the narrowing (mpg) road.

stever · September 2016

Less research in the EU (the diesel leader in passenger cars, right?) will mean less R&D in the US. I don't know what the diesel builders in India are doing, but they (and their investors) must be a bit discouraged too.

ruking1 · September 2016

Ethanol damage = to, GREATER than the gasoline it replaces! I guess the 2007 study ( 9 + years old) has been, is being ignored by the current administration & highly politicized EPA/CARB? http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Study-warns-of-health-risk-from-ethanol-2601178.php

SteveR et al, has been saying ULSD was the allergic & N0x boogey man!
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba591

..."Problem: Ethanol Reduces Fuel Economy. Congress is debating raising fuel economy standards for vehicles to reduce energy consumption and air pollution. However, ethanol, or grain alcohol, produces 35 percent less energy per gallon than gasoline; thus the fuel economy of vehicles burning ethanol is lower. For instance, Consumer Reports tested a Chevrolet Tahoe running on E85 - a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. [See the figure.] Fuel economy fell from 21 miles per gallon (m.p.g.) to 15 m.p.g. on the highway and from 9 to 7 m.p.g. in the city. As a result, when E85 was $2.91 a gallon in August 2006, for example, it would have taken $3.99 of E85 to equal one gallon of gasoline.

In addition, poorer fuel economy means vehicles will use more gallons of fuel, which could negate any air quality gains due to fuel economy improvements."...

- See more at: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba591#sthash.5Z1bK3wd.dpuf
... "In order to meet congressional mandates for ethanol in fuels, the Environmental Protection Agency has relaxed clean air regulations on ethanol production facilities, allowing 250 tons of emissions per year before regulations are triggered, whereas other industrial facilities violate clean air rules if their emissions top 100 tons per year - "...

..."Ethanol will increase ozone-forming NO x emissions in Wisconsin by twice as much as the emissions reduction achieved through vehicle inspection and maintenance programs, says the state's Department of Natural Resources. -"...

So burn more, over burning more!?

xwesx · September 2016

Well, I finally broke down and filled up the Passat today: 560.4 miles on 13.386 gallons of diesel to net 41.865 miles per gallon. That's 100% local driving. Not. Too. Shabby.

ruking1 · September 2016

Ya got to love that !? Just curious but what mpg did your computer indicate?

xwesx · September 2016

ruking1 said:
Ya got to love that !? Just curious but what mpg did your computer indicate?

Well, I forgot to reset it when I filled up on the 17th of August. It said 46.7 at that point after the drive home (calc'd average was 44.7). Today it read 45.4 when I reset after the fill.

I guess I'm too used to my Subaru(s) - the average is based strictly on the trip meter; they do not reset independently.

ruking1 · September 2016

Here's a 2012 VW Passat TDI record 84.1 mpg (single tank).https://www.cars.com/articles/2012/05/84-mpg-couple-break-mileage-record-with-passat-tdi/

Gerdes & Winger @ 81.17 mpg, over 8,233.5 miles beats his own record in 2015, 2015 Golf TDI. http://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/vw-golf-tdi-sets-fuel-economy-record/2000012221/

These are also misleading. If car diesel hybrids existed & were set up for best mpg, my swag is it would do even far better than gas hybrids!

texases · September 2016

I would bet gassers that didn't have to meet pollution specs could get pretty good mpgs...

stever · September 2016

@ruking1, I believe I always said diesel exhaust was the allergy trigger. GIGO NOx yeah, but the fine particulates are a biggie. (lungchicago.org)

ruking1 · September 2016

Somehow that bet is not even close to being serious. Then you'd lose!

2015 MB GLK 350/250BT both meet US pollution specifications. . Fuelly.com lists 20.8 / 31.1 mpg. Mpgs are not even close. TDI/Blue Tec gets 49.51923 % better mpg. Torques/ performances are not even close, like model.

ruking1 · September 2016

stever said:
@ruking1, I believe I always said diesel exhaust was the allergy trigger. GIGO NOx yeah, but the fine particulates are a biggie. (lungchicago.org)

Then (for the gassers you leave out) you are mostly wrong! Pretty simple!

fintail · September 2016

Diesel exhaust is "among the pollutants". What are the rest? Gasoline exhaust, emissions from heavy trucking and shipping, power generation for EVs (the subject nobody will touch), forest fires, volcanoes, and? I also like when you click on the "Diesel exhaust" link, it's a page not found. Nice source, was this found via a random google search?

andres3 · September 2016

fintail said:
Diesel exhaust is "among the pollutants". What are the rest? Gasoline exhaust, emissions from heavy trucking and shipping, power generation for EVs (the subject nobody will touch), forest fires, volcanoes, and? I also like when you click on the "Diesel exhaust" link, it's a page not found. Nice source, was this found via a random google search?

In CA the Cows are the new scapegoats. Too much belching and farting for far too many emissions. Talk of banning cows in CA.......

Maybe we can trade a VW in for a cow, or vice versa?

slorenzen · September 2016

andres3 said:

fintail said:
Diesel exhaust is "among the pollutants". What are the rest? Gasoline exhaust, emissions from heavy trucking and shipping, power generation for EVs (the subject nobody will touch), forest fires, volcanoes, and? I also like when you click on the "Diesel exhaust" link, it's a page not found. Nice source, was this found via a random google search?
In CA the Cows are the new scapegoats. Too much belching and farting for far too many emissions. Talk of banning cows in CA.......

Maybe we can trade a VW in for a cow, or vice versa?

I got a milk cow I'd be willing to trade for your sportwagen...

ruking1 · September 2016

andres3 said:

fintail said:
Diesel exhaust is "among the pollutants". What are the rest? Gasoline exhaust, emissions from heavy trucking and shipping, power generation for EVs (the subject nobody will touch), forest fires, volcanoes, and? I also like when you click on the "Diesel exhaust" link, it's a page not found. Nice source, was this found via a random google search?
In CA the Cows are the new scapegoats. Too much belching and farting for far too many emissions. Talk of banning cows in CA.......

Maybe we can trade a VW in for a cow, or vice versa?

Can't wait till the enviro cons make a case for destroying all those grape vines for wine making!

While CA is @ it they should cease pollutive non EV/wind powered port/ shipping activity!

stever · September 2016

fintail said:
I also like when you click on the "Diesel exhaust" link, it's a page not found. Nice source, was this found via a random google search?

The Chicago lung link? Odd, works for me. And yeah, first random hit in a "diesel exhaust asthma" search that wasn't a slow loading study from the NIH.

stever · September 2016

Not to switch gears on the emissions thread this morning, but a former VW engineer has pled guilty in Dieselgate in the US, per the WSJ. Free link at the moment.

Sounds like he pled to get a light sentence in exchange for spilling the beans.

fintail · September 2016

Yep. The main page works, but the "diesel exhaust" link in the first paragraph doesn't. Might not bode well.

No doubt diesel exhaust has an impact, but what amount of asthma causing emissions are from modern diesel passenger cars? I suspect it is infinitesimal.

stever said:

The Chicago lung link? Odd, works for me. And yeah, first random hit in a "diesel exhaust asthma" search that wasn't a slow loading study from the NIH.

houdini1 · September 2016

ruking1 said:

andres3 said:

fintail said:
Diesel exhaust is "among the pollutants". What are the rest? Gasoline exhaust, emissions from heavy trucking and shipping, power generation for EVs (the subject nobody will touch), forest fires, volcanoes, and? I also like when you click on the "Diesel exhaust" link, it's a page not found. Nice source, was this found via a random google search?
In CA the Cows are the new scapegoats. Too much belching and farting for far too many emissions. Talk of banning cows in CA.......

Maybe we can trade a VW in for a cow, or vice versa?
Can't wait till the enviro cons make a case for destroying all those grape vines for wine making!

While CA is @ it they should cease pollutive non EV/wind powered port/ shipping activity!

California reminds me of all those over zealous busybody HOAS you read about. Too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

stever · September 2016

@fintail, ah, k. May be a moot issue anyway if manufacturers quit making diesels. Sure doesn't sound like a growth industry. Ironic in a way, since we keep finding new sources of crude and natural gas (like the recent 2B field in W. Texas), while refined stockpiles keep growing.

I keep seeing conflicting reports - driving is up, gas usage is down. Who knows? Maybe it's the Leaf and Tesla owners doing all the driving.

btw, my wife who enjoys the diesel asthma trigger, also sticks to rice milk. Even though our backyard neighbor has a milk cow, my wife can't handle that either. Body chemistry is odd - at least she doesn't have to worry about peanuts on a plane and we've only had to use an Ana-kit once in 30 years (bee sting in the boonies of Quetico). Apparently we have thousands of dollar's worth of new and out of date Epipens in various drawers around the house - maybe I should unload them on the street and buy a few hundred Powerball tix.

ruking1 · September 2016

The reporting is not done in context. In more normal cases, reporting is more sensationalized to out right lies.

There you go again ? What you are implying ( defacto) is the Leaf and the Tesla (EV's) are doing the majority of 3,000,000,000,000 miles!! Bias & bigotry are hard to shake eh?

But I provided links to the 2014 FARS (3.026 T, 2014) I also did the math for 3 T miles ( per article). That cheap craculator shows the (numerical) average yrly miles (per car) are down to about 10,000 + miles per year down from 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year (14,134 miles per licensed driver, check to see if you get same figures) Now you can do mileage per licensed driver. In addition, the average mpg is marginally up, so there is in theory less consumption. There would be easily 30% less consumption if up to 23% of the PVF were TDI's. Unless the head is in the sand, it's easy to see what the policy is: consume more, not less!

texases · September 2016

That VW diesel engineer's plea is probably just the beginning, like you said they'll give deals to the small fish to try to hook some 'whoppers'.

andres3 · September 2016

They ought to make that VW engineer the head of the EPA or CARB. Seems like he'd be more effective.

ruking1 · September 2016

Yup! Just like in that (now old) movie classic "Casablanca" we need a (now huge) pool of " the usual suspects" for round up purposes!

texases · September 2016

VW just keeps looking worse. One thing that engineer did at his bosses direction was to develop a software update in 2014 to further reduce the amount of time the pollution controls were working. The reason? VW was paying out too much in warranty repairs on the control equipment!
http://jalopnik.com/vw-made-its-defeat-device-more-potent-to-save-on-warran-1786442999

ruking1 · September 2016

Well no. The main body of information has been known for a while now! Essentiallty there is nothing new in it.

So to me, new & news would be approvals of "robust" fixes. If the articles are correct, the components should be extra robust; if only because there will be a 120,000 miles emmissions warranty

texases · September 2016

So you already knew about the 2014 software update foisted on existing owners?

ruking1 · September 2016

Yes. But @ the same time it does not apply to 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009 owners. I'm not sure where it falls in the totality of things.

texases · September 2016

No, it applies to all those owners. In 2014 VW found they were having to warranty repair emissions controls on older cars. They manipulated the software to further reduce the use of pollution controls to try and reduce the warranty costs.

They told owners to bring in their cars for a reflash of the software to improve performance...

ruking1 · September 2016

In my case, it's "so what?" Indeed I do not recall the 2014 reflashing of which you speak. So post the numerical reflashing number/specifics. I will then check. Under the "improved fixes", they will have to mitigate those frequencies anyway, IF they want to save monies! Again the warranty is 120,000 miles, going forward.

So for example in my specific case, right now that would be 240,000 miles. A known defect is the 2009 oem cat. It is not on any other MY. So again that will be replaced and if they are smart, more robust than the original. It's another way of saying that unless you know what the 2014 flash actually did to each and every model year, it remains unknown.

So while you insist on belaboring the non specific issues, which skill remain fluid, that is one reason why I decidedly to get the fixes. & emissions penalties ! VW, EPA, CARB & future buyers, (me) all have skin in the game. I'm also guaranteed bi annual pass under warranty. Again in my case, @ least 4 bi annual passes.

I've had way more emissions issues, costing far more on TLC gassers, than i will probably have on this one.

gagrice · September 2016

stever said:
Not to switch gears on the emissions thread this morning, but a former VW engineer has pled guilty in Dieselgate in the US, per the WSJ. Free link at the moment.

Sounds like he pled to get a light sentence in exchange for spilling the beans.

Something fishy with Liang's testimony. He said they continued to develop the software. When in fact the software was developed by Bosch. Supposedly Bosch warned VW about the cheat and wanted indemnity.

Instead, the plea said, they designed software to recognize when the car was undergoing a test and turn on emissions controls.

gagrice · September 2016

texases said:
VW just keeps looking worse. One thing that engineer did at his bosses direction was to develop a software update in 2014 to further reduce the amount of time the pollution controls were working. The reason? VW was paying out too much in warranty repairs on the control equipment!
http://jalopnik.com/vw-made-its-defeat-device-more-potent-to-save-on-warran-1786442999

I don't believe it. Liang is lying to save his skin. I still think Bosch is the culprit for developing the cheat in the first place.

ruking1 · September 2016

Yup ! & we'll round up the usual (anti diesel) suspects? ....

texases · September 2016

Wow. Anything to exonerate VW, I guess. They've admitted to so much cheating, but this is a lie? Ok...

ruking1 · September 2016

You are pulling "exoneration" out of thin air ! You should read up on software products: rights and situations where you can set yourself up to get sued! There is already a suit in Fed court alleging Bosch's role!

henryn · September 2016

gagrice said:

Something fishy with Liang's testimony. He said they continued to develop the software. When in fact the software was developed by Bosch. Supposedly Bosch warned VW about the cheat and wanted indemnity.

I noticed that discrepancy myself. I spent a large part of my life writing software, in a big corporate environment. We would spend large amounts of money to buy a software package from a third party, and then add our own code to their product.

It's probably going to be very hard to determine who actually wrote the "defeat" code. A lot of finger pointing, "he said, she said".

gagrice · September 2016

When the CEO admits to a wrong doing, he likely doesn't have a clue who did the deed. It was obvious someone pulled a quick one trying to save money, or whatever was the motivation. Unlike GM and Toyota, VW CEO said yes we are guilty and will find out who done it. Bosch admitted they wrote the cheat code in to the device. They claimed they told the engineers at VW and it would have to be disabled. So who is guilty will be up to the courts to decide. We have one guilty plea looking for leniency. Who will be next???

"I knew that Volkswagen did not disclose the defeat device to U.S. regulators," Liang said in court. His lawyer, Daniel Nixon, said after the hearing that his client was "very remorseful."

Liang could face up to five years in prison but may get a much lighter sentence if the government finds he provided substantial assistance.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN11F234

ruking1 · September 2016

For me, this gets back to the original testing of the three TDI cars. The published test starts of with the STRONG warnings, by those that have done the testing: that the TESTS results only apply to those 3 vehicles.

I said then and say now: they ( industry, reg agencies) are hiding much much more, than is/are being exposed. SOME of those things have been documented in various articles posted on this thread.

Again the white elephant issue: the bigoted anti diesel EXTERMINATION agenda! This is NOT a conspiracy "theory" They want to "get rid" of 85% of 475,000 (3.47%) of the PVF & choke off the growth of the TDI segment!

Folk don't even know that in of a barrel of crude oil ( 42 gal)= 45 gal of petro products app 19 gal of RUG/PUG ( 45.2 %) & 12 gals of ULSD. (28.6%)
http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=oil_home

Given 95 to 97% PVF consuming gas/ethanol, much more crude has to be processed, than if a greater % of the PVF were diesels. (29% to 60% diesel PVF)

As a premier oil supplier, the US could use less barrels of oil. THE US could then EXPORT more barrel, more RUG/PUG & ULSD!

ruking1 · September 2016

TMI (or perhaps the carnage goals hidden in plain sight.)

IF the goals of buy back of 85% of affected TDI vehicles (475,000) are achieved, during this diesel "purge/extermination", they will get rid of more TDI's, than OEM's sell of EV's (US markets) in three years! IF diesels are 5%, that will mean MINUS - 2.933%. So IF 50% are diesel cars, that would = MINUS- 5.87% of diesel cars.

stever · September 2016

"Vermont has turned down Volkswagen's U.S. emissions cheating settlement offer and opted to sue Audi, Porsche and VW for showing a "blatant disregard" for the protection of the state’s natural resources and the health of its residents.

Vermonters are serious about the environment and are the second highest per capita purchasers of the illegal "clean diesel" vehicles in the U.S."

Vermont Rejects VW Settlement, Sues Audi, Porsche And VW (carcomplaints.com)

Sounds like they are really steamed about the little old lady sniffing the tailpipe commercial.

ruking1 · September 2016

It most certainly part/parcel of what I'm saying!?

But, ...are Amazon, & competitors, et al. part of a larger (decrease in miles) trend!? http://www.wsj.com/articles/e-commerce-a-boon-for-rural-america-but-it-comes-with-a-price-1473615741

How many miles are the actual decrease ? ( 2014, 3,026 billions miles, 274.805 M PVF)

stever · September 2016

The more things change...

Don't know about diesel, but you could get turpentine and kerosene emulsion delivered by Sears back in the day. And the original Cummins diesel was made for Sears around 1920. (link)

fintail · September 2016

I wonder which VT natural resources were compromised by the cheating cars. Someone sees dollar signs, and maybe career advancement. I mean, think of the children!

What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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