The dealer I went to had two sitting there and the salesman would have been tickled for me to drive either one off the lot at an even $20,000. With an 8 year 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty. I am afraid you are absolutely wrong about looks. It may not be ugly to you. But 90 % of the Amercian public think they are butt ugly. You also forgot to mention that the US government gave Toyota a safety waver on the first of the Prius vehicles sold here. They may have brought the car up to safe standards by now.
"This is very strange to me. I have John on one side saying not to take short trips in the Prius and you say don't take long trips."
I did not say don't take long trips. I said HSD is efficient in both city and highway driving, where diesel mostly shine in highway. In the discussion of comparison with diesel, I raised a point to test both city and highway and compare average mpg.
"I thought the USA Today article was very fair in presenting the pluses of both the VW TDI and the Prius."
I thought so also. The MPG comparison is just inconclusive and 27% margin of error is too high. If you go with Prius computer 51.7mpg, Prius won the fuel economy.
Is the gas tank some sort of expanding unit? If so what is the purpose behind it? I would think that would make it near impossible to get an accurate mileage test. I do like this debate, at least everyone seems interested in getting better mileage.
"Is the gas tank some sort of expanding unit? If so what is the purpose behind it?"
Yes, the gas tank has a bladder to reduce evaporative emission which was required to achieve PZEV and AT-PZEV.
Also, Prius' city mpg is higher than highway because there are less wind resistance at slower speed. Not because HSD is less efficient due to constant engine running as some indicated.
I did not mean to ignore your point about city vs highway driving. I am very aware of the design criteria that makes the hybrids operate most efficiently under certain conditions. I have one other question. Someone mentioned high sulfur gas in all states except California. Is that going to be addressed in the 2006 mandate on sulfur in our diesel? I work in Prudhoe Bay oil fields. For someone being that close to the source I don't read a lot about the different gasoline standards.
"If you go with Prius computer 51.7mpg, Prius won the fuel economy."
Not saying this is the case, but computers have been known to malfunction too. Just because it is printed doesn't mean its true.
Also, if you go with money spent....$28.62 for trip in Prius......$21.35 for trip in TDI, well then the TDI won on pocket book economy.
And with a BASE MSRP (not real world pricing which has a farther spread) of $18,670 for the Jetta TDI and $20,295 for the Prius, I already saved $1625 before I ever drove off the lot.
Just trying to look at this objectively. "90%" of the people buying cars for fuel economy are doing it because they want to save money.
$19,745 is the price I find on Edmunds which is most closely matched to Prius. That's a $550 difference; however, Prius is just a little bit better loaded and it comes with a tax incentive. So it is really a difference of about $50. And that's comparing sedan to hatchback. That doesn't take into account the value of the reflective (glare eliminating) digital speedometer either.
Plus, we know for a fact that Prius will also be offered with sticker-price markdowns once the supply catches up, since it did with the previous model.
I seem to get many receptive folks admiring my Prius. Now granted the Pontiac Aztek is UGLY. I'd describe the looks of the VW Golf TDI as BORING/BLAND. The Prius to me is quite an interesting looking vehicle. Sorta reminds me of Maria Shrivers angular looking face, odd. It is also interesting to note the the demand for the Prius is NOT based on Hollywood hype but because of all the accolades it has garnered. Hey.. anyone notice that gas prices are coming down????? Once it gets to $1.50 I am selling my Prius for a PREMIUM and buying the Hummer. I love to be politically incorrect.
It is easy to get a Jetta GLS TDI Auto for what a base Prius goes for. The Jetta gives you a basic height adjustable seat, sunroof, telescoping steering wheel, driver side and curtain airbags, and access to cheap options for stability control and heated seats. The Prius does give auto air. Most I believe would say the comparably priced Jetta is more equipped than a base Prius. Also if you want a hatch get the Golf, or even better get the Jetta Wagon. The option prices for the Prius are out of sight by comparison. Of course, comparing an easily available car to one that is basically unavailable makes the buying choice easy.
Some are choosing to force the SHORT-TERM argument, to take advantage of the temporary supply shortage. That's not objective, nor even helpful for someone that isn't shopping for a new vehicle right away.
The nickel & dime arguments are surfacing too. That's only objective if you take *ALL* aspects into account. And since none have even attempted to quanitify the price people are willing to pay for the electric-only abilities Prius provides or the AT-PZEV emissions, that clearly has not happened. Those aspects have a monetary value, ignoring that entirely is not objective.
Well, I was speaking of BASE models..BASE vs. BASE....you want to add options we can....
I paid $21,400 (+TTT) for my 04 Jetta GLS TDI
Here is what it has: Alloy Wheels Heated Leather Seats Heated mirrors and windshield spray nozzles ESP (Electronic Stabilization) power Sunroof AM/FM/CD Cruise Radio controls on the steering wheel 60K drivetrain warranty 12year unlimited rust protection and all the other standard stuff... oh, and the sticker was 22,385, so I got it for roughly $1K less.
Now, what can I get a comparably appointed Prius for, around ~24k?
"And since none have even attempted to quanitify the price people are willing to pay for the electric-only abilities Prius provides or the AT-PZEV emissions"
From my experience, speaking with people I come in contact with, the majority of people who look to the Hybrids are doing so for FUEL ECONOMY andto SAVE MONEY, not for the environmental aspects of it's technology.
Nickels and Dimes add up quickly. If I'm saving let's say on average $5 every 500 miles, over the course of 8 years at 20,000/annually miles we will have travelled 160,000 which means I will have saved ~$1600. Now we're at that 8 year mark, so if I had a Prius, I have to spend $3k on a new battery...saving = $4600 (not to mention the money I initially saved on purchase price). Also I know that I can get another 100K miles out of my diesel easy.
"That's not objective, nor even helpful for someone that isn't shopping for a new vehicle right away."
It's also not objective for you to totally disregard the fuel economy of a diesel just because YOU don't like the emissions of them. As I stated before, the average consumer isn't as zealous about the environment as you might be, the average consumer wants to save money. In the long term I recommend DIESEL for those who are looking to save money and Current HYBRIDS for those looking to cut back on emissions to almost none, they both offer exceptional fuel economy, but it all depends on the consumers priority.
But I need leather...I have a 2 year old and a 3 year old...that's why I got a GLS. So, how much for leather? And I also have a power sunroof (because it was standard with the GLS), but how much for a power sunroof?
Tires and Rims steel rims 15 x 6 in. rims P195/65HR15 tires all season tires fullsize matching spare tire steel spare wheel full wheel covers inside mounted spare tire
Roof and Glass variable intermittent wipers rear defogger
Safety Features and Ratings
Safety
ventilated front disc / solid rear disc brakes 4-wheel ABS dual front side-mounted airbags front and rear head airbags front seatbelt pretensioners rear door child safety locks child seat anchors emergency interior trunk release rear center 3-point belt 2 front headrests 3 rear headrests remote anti-theft alarm system engine immobilizer daytime running lights
Comfort and Convenience Features
Front Seats 5 person total seating capacity bucket front seats cloth upholstery height adjustable driver seat height adjustable passenger seat
Power Features remote power door locks power windows 2 one-touch power windows power mirrors heated mirrors
Convenience cruise control power steering tilt and telescopic steering wheel front and rear cupholders remote trunk release front door pockets cargo net front and cargo area 12v power outlet(s) front console with storage retained accessory power
Comfort air conditioning interior air filtration front and rear reading lights dual vanity mirrors front and rear floor mats trunk light
Entertainment and Telematics
In Car Entertainment AM/FM cassette in-dash single CD player, CD-controller stereo 8 stereo speakers mast antenna
If people wanted a SUV just for the abilities a SUV offers, they'd opt for a practical-size one. But no, instead the monster-size ones command a very notable percentage of SUV sales.
The same goes for monster-size Pickups.
Your arguments don't include SUVs or Pickups. How come? My endorsement for HSD does.
You've taken my comment out of context...and you know what was meant by that comment, but just in case I'll break it down for you...that comment..
"As I stated before, the average consumer isn't as zealous about the environment as you might be, the average consumer wants to save money." can be directly related to the comment two paragraphs above it...
"...the majority of people who look to the Hybrids are doing so for FUEL ECONOMY andto SAVE MONEY, not for the environmental aspects of it's technology
I was, as I have been all along, referring to consumers who are looking into CURRENT (I believe I even mentioned CURRENT hybrid technology in the last statement of the same post) Hybrid technology.
We are, and have been, speaking of the Prius and the Jetta TDI. We haven't mentioned any truck or SUVs (other than I stated that I owned an Expedition with an auto tranny), and since those are FUTURE HYBRID technology, do not pertain to this particular dialog.
___In regards to emissions, the Accord, Camry, and Focus can be purchased in PZEV formats for a heck of a lot less so unless the Prius II is compared to a diesel like the thread is titled, PZEV doesn’t really add squat. Unless you were forced to pay $26,500 + for a Prius II package 9 because that is all the dealer will sell you in the 40,000 + allotted for the states. Try and find a base Prius II and pay just $20,295 nowadays
___When the hype clears, I think diesel might be the engine of choice. The $1,200 or more for the high pressure fuel injection and possibly the newer CAT’s, Adsorber’s, Spray’s, and/or PM filters are still less costly then the $3,000 + of the Hybrid drivetrain and perform better as well. There simply is no denying that the Honda Accord 2.2 iCDTi is a much more powerful, larger, heavier, and less expensive automobile (the European’s can purchase the Accord Saloon without every bell and whistle installed) with close to similar mileage capabilities as that of the Prius II
___Someone also keeps forgetting to mention that a Diesel’s CO, CO2, output is less then that of a SULEV rated SI ICE in most cases and with smaller Diesels coming, Euro V specs should be met quite handily. That means ULEV type ratings including PM and just missing in NOx with a ULEV rating needing .05 g/mi vs. Euro V of .08 g/mi. ULEV’s are already cleaner then 50% of the automobiles on the road today so take that for what its worth
I also like the fact that the diesel is a 500,000-1,000,000 mile motor. To me, this is a major issue. Almost all vehicles have pretty much the same scheduled maintenance (but realistically there can be cost differences in schedule maintenance). What will keep a vehicle running is the cost of unscheduled maintenance. Of course, depending on how long the average driver keeps their car/s would in effect determine the replacement cost. If most drivers replace every 100,000 that can mean 5-10 vehicles. In my own case that is anywhere up to 4 vehicles. So I ask myself the question: would I rather buy 1 or 4 vehicles? From purely an economic point of view, that is an almost total no brainer; 18,000 vs (4 x 18,000=)72,000 dollars.
So to me, since I do app 30,000 miles a year, the economics indicate that 1. that the hybrid for me will need up to 28 battery modules @140 per=3920 at the 5 year mark vs 0 in the Jetta TDI 2. This also does not take into account that the hybrid (in the USA currently) uses 16-21% more fuel by virtual of its automatic transmission (not an option) vs the 5 speed manual option in a diesel jetta.
When you look at the base price of a Toyota Corolla and it's attending slightly less fuel mileage (32 C/40H) ; 12,600 vs a Toyota Prius 51H/60C at 18,700 it is clearly not cost effective against a Corolla; beyond a first amendment statement/exercise. Specifically it will take 300,000 miles to BE. (not including Prius' est battery replacement at 150-200k miles of 3900 dollars) In terms of the nexus of this thread, VW Jetta TDI is bp 17,400 vs Toyota Prius bp 18,700 or VW Jetta TDI is 1,300 dollars cheap. This of course, given the real world mileage figures of both TDI and Prius is not break even. Against the EPA (average C+H/2) ranges, the be is app 225,000 miles.
Two major issues 1. real world testing indicates 19-28% less fuel mileage than EPA range for the Prius (Prius40-45 mpg in real world vs 40-48 mpg TDI) . 2 How many Prius in the real world are available at 18,700?
People buy SUV's for many different reasons. Mostly to have room for the kids and "STUFF". That is why one of my vehicles is a Suburban. What I want, nobody offers in this country. A small to medium size PU that is economical to drive. Don't give me the Toyota PU routine. I had a 4 cylinder with 5 speed and the best mileage it ever got was 19 MPG. I would much rather drive my Suburban that averages 13-14 MPG. Most of the countries in the world offer small diesel PU trucks. Not here in the good old USA. I would consider a hybrid PU if someone built one. I need a vehicle to run to the store and Home Depot garden center. None of the hybrids are practical for anything except commuters. Many folks do fit that category. I am not one of them. Is that objective enough...
Can someone tell me how long it takes for the startup in cold weather (below 20 f). I imagine it would take 10 seconds or so? Once started, can you drive off as you do in a gas driven car? Are there any cold starting issues or have those been remedied. I am really surprised that demand for the TDI hasn't taken off. I find it an extremely interesting alternative. I am also interested in finding out how durable those small diesel engines are compared to their gas counterparts.
The TDI do just fine in cold weather as long as winterized diesel fuel is used. The only downside in the winter is that diesel engines, due to their efficiency, take a while to generate heat so you will stay cold longer in your car unless it is equipped, like many diesel BMW Mercedes Volvo or Saabs, with an additional heater. Here in Belgium, I believe well over 2/3 of the cars are diesel and their owners are very satisfied. Diesel cars are generally more reliable and require less maintenance because they have less parts, don't need high revs to generate power and have better lubrication. However, even here in Belgium with gas three times more expensive than in the US, many people are not breaking even in their diesel purchase due to the much higher acquisition cost of diesel cars. I have a hard time understanding why someone in the US would be better off with a diesel or a hybrid car ??
In the case of the VW Jetta TDI vs 1.8 T, there is almost literally no break even point. More correctly, bp 17,448 TDI vs 17,285 1.8T. The 1.8T being -163 less. Also 1.8T requires premium unleaded gas, which our corner store is 2.45 24/31 mpg USA vs 2.23 #2 diesel 42/49 mpg. In operating costs, the gasser version costs more. (3353.00 per 100,000 miles) So over the expected life span of a diesel, 500k-1M miles, costs savings (16,764- 33,530)are compelling.
A short term comparison would be savings of .033528 cents per mile ( or 42.3% per mile)!!!???
Since around 90% of the vehicles in the north are junked by year 10, that is a non-issue in my book.
Rust, corrosion, and a deteriorating interior make vehicles lose their appeal in large numbers, regardless of whether it still runs or not here in Minnesota. The fact that older vehicles lack many safety features helps make the replacement decision even easier. And if that isn't enough, the desire for change will finally get the best of you. We simply don't have that many really old vehicles on the roads anymore.
In short, convincing someone to keep a vehicle with more than 200,000 miles is quite a challenge here.
Well for sure there can be huge regional differences! In fact, the longevity of vehicles (or lack there of) might be one premium paid for living in a particular region. As a point of comparison, "rust through protection" for a VW Jetta is 12 years.
Keeping vehicles (sans the rusting influence) is pretty easy to do in some regions. I had a 14 year old 1987 Toyota Landcruiser sold with app 250,000 miles. It saw almost daily use as a delivery vehicle. It sold at app 44% total depreciation and judging by its body condition has at the very least another 15 years without major repairs.
Everyone knows someone that has a very old vehicle still in service. But what are the actual averages?
If there a common dropoff point, what is it... miles or age? And very specifically, in what region?
Salt near the coasts and in the northern states eats vehicles. The moisture and temperature swings does in the north too. So we know those regions have shorter lives.
Transmission, suspension, brakes, boots, etc. eventually require suspension. Those building needs are common factors that cause a person to use a vehicle less, demoting it to a secondary vehicle. That means we also need to indentify if the vehicle is primary. In other words, you'll still find it in the daily commute.
Then... identify how many perfectly good vehicles are destroyed in accidents.
So... even if a vehicle is designed to run for 100's of 1000's of miles, doesn't mean it will.
And... how much insurance do you really think you can get or even want to pay for on a vehicle that already has 200,000 miles on it?
In other words, it is unrealistic to actually plan on the vehicle reaching a very old age. You must choose an amortization age (distance or miles). For the typical person in the northern midwest, that is 150,000 miles.
IMO, you should compare the TDI to the much less expensive 2.0L 115hp for a meaningful comparison (it doesn't require premium fuel) More generally, I see some other weakness in diesel cars. They don't tolerate short trips as well as gas cars (more wear and tear in these driving conditions) and more importantly, diesel cars require more expensive hardware to run as well as a gas car. First you need a turbo (higher maintenance cost and lowers durability) for same power as an non turbo gas car, plus many other accesories such as, for the TDI, a different flywheel. My dad's Golf TDI has to have the flywheel replaced at 45K km due to higher vibration of the diesel engine. The dual mass TDI flywheel is almost twice as expensive as the gas car specifically to tame the vibrations specific to the diesel. Modern common rail diesel cars here are also very sensitive to fuel quality and many suffer major breakdowns due to unexpected low quality fuel or higher water content in the fuel. The manufacturer usually refuses to cover the expensive damage. These are additional inconvenients of running a diesel. As far as longevity, et ceteris paribus a diesel should last longer but unfortunately, it doesn't hold true for all the specialized accessories added to the diesel engine to have it run as smoothly and as quietly as a gas engine.
Personal Vehicle = a few passengers and/or a small amount of cargo
In other words, they have absolutely nothing in common. So I don't include the decision of fuel or engine type relevant when discussing the purchase of a personal vehicle. The purpose is just way too different.
"In other words, they have absolutely nothing in common. So I don't include the decision of fuel or engine type relevant when discussing the purchase of a personal vehicle. The purpose is just way too different."
In the USA upwards of 90% of the market agrees with you. I understand the fleet of diesel type passenger cars is 1-2% MAX and that is being optimistic! . In Euro, the market is more evenly split. But then as folks that have to pay the Euro gas and diesel prices will tell you, the prices are much higher there.
"Well for sure there can be huge regional differences! In fact, the longevity of vehicles (or lack there of) might be one premium paid for living in a particular region"
I am glad you agree with me.
"Everyone knows someone that has a very old vehicle still in service. But what are the actual averages?
If there a common dropoff point, what is it... miles or age? And very specifically, in what region?
Salt near the coasts and in the northern states eats vehicles. The moisture and temperature swings does in the north too. So we know those regions have shorter lives.
Transmission, suspension, brakes, boots, etc. eventually require suspension. Those building needs are common factors that cause a person to use a vehicle less, demoting it to a secondary vehicle. That means we also need to indentify if the vehicle is primary. In other words, you'll still find it in the daily commute"
You also might want to check the "scrap" rate figures, which range from 4.5-6.5% per year. Also the average age of the fleet is 8-8.5 years. OEM's of course battle to make that "new every two".
"More generally, I see some other weakness in diesel cars. They don't tolerate short trips as well as gas cars (more wear and tear in these driving conditions) and more importantly, diesel cars require more expensive hardware to run as well as a gas car."
Well, if what you are saying is true then the whole diesel trucking industy has missed the boat in picking diesel over gas?? I think not!! Also almost any diesel truck rig is designed for 6 figure if not 7 figure digits.
Of the items that you have mentioned, surely you know that one example does not a trend make. But at the same time, the longer one can buck the so called trends, the cheaper per mile can be the cost (which you probably have gathered is one of my transportation priorities) . If the figures that I used to buy a diesel over a like gasser does not speak to you then, it is not for me to go beyond presenting what motivated me. I was also almost totally unimpressed with the 2.0 and 1.8T gasser options in the VW. If it were not for the fact that VW offered a diesel engine, I almost certainly would not have gotten a VW. I really like the concept of the Acura TL in a diesel(no plans for importation into the USA)but does not have near the rust through 12 year warranty of VW. Soon they will be importing the diesel MB320 in the USA. This of course did not help with diesel engine availability in late 2002 early 2003.
There are almost huge "big picture" differences over here in the USA. vs Euro. 1. In 2003 we are limited to a few manufacturers (VW), of diesel passenger car products vs almost every OEM having a diesel option in every model available in Euro. 2. Our unleaded regular is over 2 dollars and #2 diesel 1.59-2.40 USA vs what I can read up to 7.93 for unleaded regular in the UK. 3. Most USA model cars here are really not designed to run at autobahn like speeds.
In terms of the insurance, I had comprehensive and collision coverage up until it was sold because it maintained 56% of its purchase price . My goal was to drop the collision ASAP in its later years, which for me was not the case.
I agree with you that I would not have even looked at a VW if not for the diesel engine. I really wanted to like the Prius, I just had too much trouble with my two previous Toyota vehicles. If I want a super economical vehicle I will have to buy a used VW TDI because of CA's inconsistent regulations. OR, I can continue to drive my Suburban to Costco, the grocery store and Home Depot.
I keep seeing these low $20k figures flashed around for a fully equpped Prius. I just pulled up the 2004 Prius on Edmund's, with all the bells and whistles and it came to a whopping $27,992 TMV before tax and license. I did the same for the VW Jetta GLS TDI with everything on it. It was more than $5k less @ $22,910. For the difference in even 10 mpg that some on this site are getting. They are not going to live long enough, nor are the cars going to last long enough to make the difference. That is less than $900 savings every 100,000 miles or 556,000 miles to the break even point. I don't think even the wildest among you expect the Prius or the Jetta TDI to be still running at that point in time. So if you want to be the first on the block to have a hybrid I understand that. If you are mainly concerned with the economics the Jetta diesel is a clear winner..
What? The base version of Prius is very well loaded (as posted in message #625), so it certained isn't a basic offering. But no one called that "fully equipped" either.
The version that is actually "fully equipped" is $26,239 (refer to the scan of my window-sticker for proof.) Whatever the case, it comes with features that the Jetta just plain can't compare with, like SE/SS.
In other words, we need to very closely match components, rather than generalizing... then prove it. Also, I have yet to see any real-world data for a Jetta TDI. Got spreadsheets? I do for Prius.
"The version that is actually "fully equipped" is $26,239 (refer to the scan of my window-sticker for proof.) Whatever the case, it comes with features that the Jetta just plain can't compare with, like SE/SS."
Before taxes and license, the TDI Jetta was almost 19 k (18.5k) Your sentence indicates that you have fallen for the so called "other stuff". This hearkens back to a prior post question of how many folks got their Prius at 18.7k? Even at 18.7k (which is close to the same as the TDI), the issue of batteries at 3920 still looms not to mention the fact that the price you quote indicates a 29% premium. Also there has been a lot of publicity about having to be VERY VERY careful driving the Prius to get anywhere near the 51 highway 60 city epa. Most tests and folks report 40-45 mpg. So if most TDI's get 42/49 mpg epa the TDI is still ahead. There are of course the deviants that get closer to 70 mpg in both vehicles, and going the other way with less than 40 mpg.
There is even indication of the makings of a class action lawsuit on the Prius on the epa mileage figures .
For example, I do not want nor need nor am willing to pay for nave. I am pretty far past the want, need, or willingness to pay for so called "options" I am not saying these options are not wanted, needed, etc. for other folks. What I am saying is it drives up the cost per mile and or break even (BE). That is anathema, when one's goal is to drive it down!?
Shall I start reporting back to you every time I fill up, with how many gallons, how many miles are on the tank, my estimated percentage of city/hwy, and the price I paid as opposed to regular unleaded? Wait, I suppose it should be as opposed to premium unleaded, since that is what is recommended for the Prius, right?
I average 44mpg per tank (and I check my average EVERY tank). I have gotten as low as 41mpg with almost 100% city driving and my highest HWY tank was 52mpg with 100% hwy, but I usually average 49mpg with almost 100% hwy. But, I'll start making spreadsheets for you if that is what you want. Granted, it might take a little time as I don't have to fill up as often as I did with my Corolla.
I don't know what you mean by Vague...I've seen plenty of people posting their real world averages in this very forum.
How can you possibly make that claim? There isn't any SUMMER data even available yet for the new Prius.
So either you are drawing conclusions without waiting for a whole year of data (the only truly objective measurement), or you are quoting data for the old Prius.
On a recent trip in the TDI, 245 mile trip. San Jose CA to Sparks, NV. Zero to 6225 altitude. (long uphill obviously) Three persons fully loaded trunk (250#s of luggage) AC on. 3 hrs (with a 15 min bathroom break) Got a 42 mpg.
On the return trip 6225 to zero altitude same conditions. Got 49 mpg.
Since this TDI was gotten for "commute," 50 mile R/T 35 mins to a high of 1.25 hrs each way, we get between 48-50 mpg.
I am not sure where you bought your Prius. The TMV for San Diego according to this website today, for a fully loaded 2004 Prius is $27,992, the MSRP is $27,738. Which shows that Toyota is not interested in the environment. They are interested in gouging the American public. Even if you bought your Prius for $26,239 it will have 385,000 miles before the break even point. That is if your batteries never need changing. And on a more objective level. I have driven both. Around town I liked the silence of the Prius. For out and out fun driving on the highways and mountain roads the Jetta is much more desirable. For real world data go to the tdiclub.com. There are hundreds of satisfied VW diesel drivers in a forum just like this. From what little I looked at they all confirm the "Real World" mileage in the mid 40 MPG. Why would anyone need a spreadsheet for that? When I bought a brand new Toyota Landcruiser in 1964 I kept a notebook with every tank of gas and the mileage. It did not help one bit. I still got the same mileage.
I have some questions. What year and model is your VW. Do you have the automatic or 5 speed? Did you test drive the hybrids before you bought the VW? I would love to test drive one of the Passatt TDI's. The closest dealer that has them is Phoenix. I may have to fly over and give one a try. I am not in a big hurry to buy another vehicle. I have 3 that all run perfect though a bit old.
A wife's co worker recently bought a "fully" loaded Prius. The price he paid was very close to the price that you indicated. No real 411 on his longtitudinal experiences with mileage.
I also have about 5 hrs of cockpit time in the Prius. You are right, it is almost spooky quiet at "idle" It also had pretty fair acceleration. I took it to an 85 mph on the freeway in traffic.
"I have some questions. What year and model is your VW. Do you have the automatic or 5 speed? Did you test drive the hybrids before you bought the VW? I would love to test drive one of the Passatt TDI's. The closest dealer that has them is Phoenix. I may have to fly over and give one a try. I am not in a big hurry to buy another vehicle. I have 3 that all run perfect though a bit old. "
Sure, 2003 VW Jetta TDI, GL, 5sp man, I also have the dreaded GY LS-H tires.
I test drove a 2003 Prius, but didn't like it at all. Of course they said the 2004 was "redesigned" So my local Toyota dealer gave it to me for a day, when I brought my Landcruiser in for a brake pad swap.
Yeah, if I want to test drive a TDI Passat my closest is Reno, NV and/r Las Vegas, NV. For a heads up,CA will register a 2004 TDI,BUT has to have the 7500 mile (used) moniker.
The Prius I drove was one of the first ones in San Diego. I think they are cool to drive around town. I did not get to take it on winding mountain roads like down the back way to Palm Springs. That would be the test going up and down those grades. I refuse to get caught up in a bidding war for any vehicle. You lose enough when you drive it off the lot. Then if some greedy dealer gouges you for a grand over MSRP that is more money down the toilet. I guess a guy could buy a Passat TDI in another state where you have relatives and let them put on the 7500 miles to satisfy the ignorance of the CA legislature. Or buy a 1 ton crew cab with a diesel that really dumps out the particulate matter.
Even as a "demo", this one had very very few miles. I did not put any "stress" on this machine. When I brought it back, they just asked what I thought. In addition, he did mention that he thought there was like a 4-6 week wait.
The other thing is that the passengers I had did mention that it drew a lot of stares!
Comments
I did not say don't take long trips. I said HSD is efficient in both city and highway driving, where diesel mostly shine in highway. In the discussion of comparison with diesel, I raised a point to test both city and highway and compare average mpg.
"I thought the USA Today article was very fair in presenting the pluses of both the VW TDI and the Prius."
I thought so also. The MPG comparison is just inconclusive and 27% margin of error is too high. If you go with Prius computer 51.7mpg, Prius won the fuel economy.
Dennis
Yes, the gas tank has a bladder to reduce evaporative emission which was required to achieve PZEV and AT-PZEV.
Also, Prius' city mpg is higher than highway because there are less wind resistance at slower speed. Not because HSD is less efficient due to constant engine running as some indicated.
Dennis
Not saying this is the case, but computers have been known to malfunction too. Just because it is printed doesn't mean its true.
Also, if you go with money spent....$28.62 for trip in Prius......$21.35 for trip in TDI, well then the TDI won on pocket book economy.
And with a BASE MSRP (not real world pricing which has a farther spread) of $18,670 for the Jetta TDI and $20,295 for the Prius, I already saved $1625 before I ever drove off the lot.
Just trying to look at this objectively. "90%" of the people buying cars for fuel economy are doing it because they want to save money.
Plus, we know for a fact that Prius will also be offered with sticker-price markdowns once the supply catches up, since it did with the previous model.
In other words, price will basically be a wash.
JOHN
The nickel & dime arguments are surfacing too. That's only objective if you take *ALL* aspects into account. And since none have even attempted to quanitify the price people are willing to pay for the electric-only abilities Prius provides or the AT-PZEV emissions, that clearly has not happened. Those aspects have a monetary value, ignoring that entirely is not objective.
JOHN
I paid $21,400 (+TTT) for my 04 Jetta GLS TDI
Here is what it has:
Alloy Wheels
Heated Leather Seats
Heated mirrors and windshield spray nozzles
ESP (Electronic Stabilization)
power Sunroof
AM/FM/CD
Cruise
Radio controls on the steering wheel
60K drivetrain warranty
12year unlimited rust protection
and all the other standard stuff...
oh, and the sticker was 22,385, so I got it for roughly $1K less.
Now, what can I get a comparably appointed Prius for, around ~24k?
From my experience, speaking with people I come in contact with, the majority of people who look to the Hybrids are doing so for FUEL ECONOMY andto SAVE MONEY, not for the environmental aspects of it's technology.
Nickels and Dimes add up quickly. If I'm saving let's say on average $5 every 500 miles, over the course of 8 years at 20,000/annually miles we will have travelled 160,000 which means I will have saved ~$1600. Now we're at that 8 year mark, so if I had a Prius, I have to spend $3k on a new battery...saving = $4600 (not to mention the money I initially saved on purchase price). Also I know that I can get another 100K miles out of my diesel easy.
"That's not objective, nor even helpful for someone that isn't shopping for a new vehicle right away."
It's also not objective for you to totally disregard the fuel economy of a diesel just because YOU don't like the emissions of them. As I stated before, the average consumer isn't as zealous about the environment as you might be, the average consumer wants to save money. In the long term I recommend DIESEL for those who are looking to save money and Current HYBRIDS for those looking to cut back on emissions to almost none, they both offer exceptional fuel economy, but it all depends on the consumers priority.
• CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission)
• Automatic Climate-Control with Electric A/C
• Anti-Lock Brakes
• Traction-Control
• Cruise-Control
• Power & Heated mirrors
• Power windows
• Power door locks
• AM/FM/CD with 6 speakers
• Keyless-Entry remotes
• Cast Aluminum Alloy rims
• Tilt steering with audio/climate controls
• 60/40 Split-folding rear seat
• Multi-Display with trip computer
• Digital Speedometer (glare-eliminating type)
• Rear Defroster
• LED Brake Lights
Standard Features on TDI GL..Base Price $18,670
Mechanical Features
Engine
1.9L displacement single overhead cam (SOHC)
inline 4 cylinder configuration diesel engine
8 valves turbodiesel
100 hp @ 4000 rpm 177 ft-lbs. @ 1800 rpm
diesel fuel
DriveTrain
5-speed manual transmission front wheel drive
Suspension
front independent suspension front and rear stabilizer bar
Instrumentation
tachometer
clock
low fuel level warning
Towing and Hauling
cargo tie downs
Exterior Features
Tires and Rims
steel rims 15 x 6 in. rims
P195/65HR15 tires all season tires
fullsize matching spare tire steel spare wheel
full wheel covers inside mounted spare tire
Roof and Glass
variable intermittent wipers rear defogger
Safety Features and Ratings
Safety
ventilated front disc / solid rear disc brakes
4-wheel ABS
dual front side-mounted airbags
front and rear head airbags
front seatbelt pretensioners
rear door child safety locks
child seat anchors
emergency interior trunk release
rear center 3-point belt
2 front headrests
3 rear headrests
remote anti-theft alarm system
engine immobilizer
daytime running lights
Comfort and Convenience Features
Front Seats
5 person total seating capacity
bucket front seats
cloth upholstery
height adjustable driver seat
height adjustable passenger seat
Rear Seats
40-60 split bench rear seat split-folding
rear ventilation ducts
Power Features
remote power door locks
power windows
2 one-touch power windows
power mirrors
heated mirrors
Convenience
cruise control
power steering
tilt and telescopic steering wheel
front and rear cupholders
remote trunk release
front door pockets
cargo net
front and cargo area 12v power outlet(s)
front console with storage
retained accessory power
Comfort
air conditioning
interior air filtration
front and rear reading lights
dual vanity mirrors
front and rear floor mats
trunk light
Entertainment and Telematics
In Car Entertainment
AM/FM cassette in-dash single CD player,
CD-controller stereo
8 stereo speakers
mast antenna
Then explain the popularity of monster-size SUVs.
If people wanted a SUV just for the abilities a SUV offers, they'd opt for a practical-size one. But no, instead the monster-size ones command a very notable percentage of SUV sales.
The same goes for monster-size Pickups.
Your arguments don't include SUVs or Pickups. How come? My endorsement for HSD does.
JOHN
"As I stated before, the average consumer isn't as zealous about the environment as you might be, the average consumer wants to save money." can be directly related to the comment two paragraphs above it...
"...the majority of people who look to the Hybrids are doing so for FUEL ECONOMY andto SAVE MONEY, not for the environmental aspects of it's technology
I was, as I have been all along, referring to consumers who are looking into CURRENT (I believe I even mentioned CURRENT hybrid technology in the last statement of the same post) Hybrid technology.
We are, and have been, speaking of the Prius and the Jetta TDI. We haven't mentioned any truck or SUVs (other than I stated that I owned an Expedition with an auto tranny), and since those are FUTURE HYBRID technology, do not pertain to this particular dialog.
___In regards to emissions, the Accord, Camry, and Focus can be purchased in PZEV formats for a heck of a lot less so unless the Prius II is compared to a diesel like the thread is titled, PZEV doesn’t really add squat. Unless you were forced to pay $26,500 + for a Prius II package 9 because that is all the dealer will sell you in the 40,000 + allotted for the states. Try and find a base Prius II and pay just $20,295 nowadays
___When the hype clears, I think diesel might be the engine of choice. The $1,200 or more for the high pressure fuel injection and possibly the newer CAT’s, Adsorber’s, Spray’s, and/or PM filters are still less costly then the $3,000 + of the Hybrid drivetrain and perform better as well. There simply is no denying that the Honda Accord 2.2 iCDTi is a much more powerful, larger, heavier, and less expensive automobile (the European’s can purchase the Accord Saloon without every bell and whistle installed) with close to similar mileage capabilities as that of the Prius II
___Someone also keeps forgetting to mention that a Diesel’s CO, CO2, output is less then that of a SULEV rated SI ICE in most cases and with smaller Diesels coming, Euro V specs should be met quite handily. That means ULEV type ratings including PM and just missing in NOx with a ULEV rating needing .05 g/mi vs. Euro V of .08 g/mi. ULEV’s are already cleaner then 50% of the automobiles on the road today so take that for what its worth
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Not me. I have engaged in the general topic discusson all along. And when a question was posed asking for greater Prius detail, I provided it.
The topic is "Hybrid vs Diesel", so it totally appropriate to investigate all aspects of those two technologies.
JOHN
So to me, since I do app 30,000 miles a year, the economics indicate that 1. that the hybrid for me will need up to 28 battery modules @140 per=3920 at the 5 year mark vs 0 in the Jetta TDI 2. This also does not take into account that the hybrid (in the USA currently) uses 16-21% more fuel by virtual of its automatic transmission (not an option) vs the 5 speed manual option in a diesel jetta.
When you look at the base price of a Toyota Corolla and it's attending slightly less fuel mileage (32 C/40H) ; 12,600 vs a Toyota Prius 51H/60C at 18,700 it is clearly not cost effective against a Corolla; beyond a first amendment statement/exercise. Specifically it will take 300,000 miles to BE. (not including Prius' est battery replacement at 150-200k miles of 3900 dollars) In terms of the nexus of this thread, VW Jetta TDI is bp 17,400 vs Toyota Prius bp 18,700 or VW Jetta TDI is 1,300 dollars cheap. This of course, given the real world mileage figures of both TDI and Prius is not break even. Against the EPA (average C+H/2) ranges, the be is app 225,000 miles.
Two major issues 1. real world testing indicates 19-28% less fuel mileage than EPA range for the Prius (Prius40-45 mpg in real world vs 40-48 mpg TDI) . 2 How many Prius in the real world are available at 18,700?
Here in Belgium, I believe well over 2/3 of the cars are diesel and their owners are very satisfied.
Diesel cars are generally more reliable and require less maintenance because they have less parts, don't need high revs to generate power and have better lubrication.
However, even here in Belgium with gas three times more expensive than in the US, many people are not breaking even in their diesel purchase due to the much higher acquisition cost of diesel cars.
I have a hard time understanding why someone in the US would be better off with a diesel or a hybrid car ??
A short term comparison would be savings of .033528 cents per mile ( or 42.3% per mile)!!!???
Since around 90% of the vehicles in the north are junked by year 10, that is a non-issue in my book.
Rust, corrosion, and a deteriorating interior make vehicles lose their appeal in large numbers, regardless of whether it still runs or not here in Minnesota. The fact that older vehicles lack many safety features helps make the replacement decision even easier. And if that isn't enough, the desire for change will finally get the best of you. We simply don't have that many really old vehicles on the roads anymore.
In short, convincing someone to keep a vehicle with more than 200,000 miles is quite a challenge here.
JOHN
Keeping vehicles (sans the rusting influence) is pretty easy to do in some regions. I had a 14 year old 1987 Toyota Landcruiser sold with app 250,000 miles. It saw almost daily use as a delivery vehicle. It sold at app 44% total depreciation and judging by its body condition has at the very least another 15 years without major repairs.
If there a common dropoff point, what is it... miles or age? And very specifically, in what region?
Salt near the coasts and in the northern states eats vehicles. The moisture and temperature swings does in the north too. So we know those regions have shorter lives.
Transmission, suspension, brakes, boots, etc. eventually require suspension. Those building needs are common factors that cause a person to use a vehicle less, demoting it to a secondary vehicle. That means we also need to indentify if the vehicle is primary. In other words, you'll still find it in the daily commute.
JOHN
So... even if a vehicle is designed to run for 100's of 1000's of miles, doesn't mean it will.
And... how much insurance do you really think you can get or even want to pay for on a vehicle that already has 200,000 miles on it?
In other words, it is unrealistic to actually plan on the vehicle reaching a very old age. You must choose an amortization age (distance or miles). For the typical person in the northern midwest, that is 150,000 miles.
JOHN
More generally, I see some other weakness in diesel cars.
They don't tolerate short trips as well as gas cars (more wear and tear in these driving conditions) and more importantly, diesel cars require more expensive hardware to run as well as a gas car.
First you need a turbo (higher maintenance cost and lowers durability) for same power as an non turbo gas car, plus many other accesories such as, for the TDI, a different flywheel.
My dad's Golf TDI has to have the flywheel replaced at 45K km due to higher vibration of the diesel engine. The dual mass TDI flywheel is almost twice as expensive as the gas car specifically to tame the vibrations specific to the diesel.
Modern common rail diesel cars here are also very sensitive to fuel quality and many suffer major breakdowns due to unexpected low quality fuel or higher water content in the fuel. The manufacturer usually refuses to cover the expensive damage.
These are additional inconvenients of running a diesel.
As far as longevity, et ceteris paribus a diesel should last longer but unfortunately, it doesn't hold true for all the specialized accessories added to the diesel engine to have it run as smoothly and as quietly as a gas engine.
Personal Vehicle = a few passengers and/or a small amount of cargo
In other words, they have absolutely nothing in common. So I don't include the decision of fuel or engine type relevant when discussing the purchase of a personal vehicle. The purpose is just way too different.
JOHN
In the USA upwards of 90% of the market agrees with you. I understand the fleet of diesel type passenger cars is 1-2% MAX and that is being optimistic! . In Euro, the market is more evenly split. But then as folks that have to pay the Euro gas and diesel prices will tell you, the prices are much higher there.
I am glad you agree with me.
"Everyone knows someone that has a very old vehicle still in service. But what are the actual averages?
If there a common dropoff point, what is it... miles or age? And very specifically, in what region?
Salt near the coasts and in the northern states eats vehicles. The moisture and temperature swings does in the north too. So we know those regions have shorter lives.
Transmission, suspension, brakes, boots, etc. eventually require suspension. Those building needs are common factors that cause a person to use a vehicle less, demoting it to a secondary vehicle. That means we also need to indentify if the vehicle is primary. In other words, you'll still find it in the daily commute"
You also might want to check the "scrap" rate figures, which range from 4.5-6.5% per year. Also the average age of the fleet is 8-8.5 years. OEM's of course battle to make that "new every two".
"More generally, I see some other weakness in diesel cars.
They don't tolerate short trips as well as gas cars (more wear and tear in these driving conditions) and more importantly, diesel cars require more expensive hardware to run as well as a gas car."
Well, if what you are saying is true then the whole diesel trucking industy has missed the boat in picking diesel over gas?? I think not!! Also almost any diesel truck rig is designed for 6 figure if not 7 figure digits.
Of the items that you have mentioned, surely you know that one example does not a trend make. But at the same time, the longer one can buck the so called trends, the cheaper per mile can be the cost (which you probably have gathered is one of my transportation priorities) . If the figures that I used to buy a diesel over a like gasser does not speak to you then, it is not for me to go beyond presenting what motivated me. I was also almost totally unimpressed with the 2.0 and 1.8T gasser options in the VW. If it were not for the fact that VW offered a diesel engine, I almost certainly would not have gotten a VW. I really like the concept of the Acura TL in a diesel(no plans for importation into the USA)but does not have near the rust through 12 year warranty of VW. Soon they will be importing the diesel MB320 in the USA. This of course did not help with diesel engine availability in late 2002 early 2003.
There are almost huge "big picture" differences over here in the USA. vs Euro. 1. In 2003 we are limited to a few manufacturers (VW), of diesel passenger car products vs almost every OEM having a diesel option in every model available in Euro. 2. Our unleaded regular is over 2 dollars and #2 diesel 1.59-2.40 USA vs what I can read up to 7.93 for unleaded regular in the UK. 3. Most USA model cars here are really not designed to run at autobahn like speeds.
In terms of the insurance, I had comprehensive and collision coverage up until it was sold because it maintained 56% of its purchase price
The version that is actually "fully equipped" is $26,239 (refer to the scan of my window-sticker for proof.) Whatever the case, it comes with features that the Jetta just plain can't compare with, like SE/SS.
In other words, we need to very closely match components, rather than generalizing... then prove it. Also, I have yet to see any real-world data for a Jetta TDI. Got spreadsheets? I do for Prius.
JOHN
What real-world Data are you looking for?
Before taxes and license, the TDI Jetta was almost 19 k (18.5k) Your sentence indicates that you have fallen for the so called "other stuff". This hearkens back to a prior post question of how many folks got their Prius at 18.7k? Even at 18.7k (which is close to the same as the TDI), the issue of batteries at 3920 still looms not to mention the fact that the price you quote indicates a 29% premium. Also there has been a lot of publicity about having to be VERY VERY careful driving the Prius to get anywhere near the 51 highway 60 city epa. Most tests and folks report 40-45 mpg. So if most TDI's get 42/49 mpg epa the TDI is still ahead. There are of course the deviants
There is even indication of the makings of a class action lawsuit on the Prius on the epa mileage figures
For example, I do not want nor need nor am willing to pay for nave. I am pretty far past the want, need, or willingness to pay for so called "options" I am not saying these options are not wanted, needed, etc. for other folks. What I am saying is it drives up the cost per mile and or break even (BE). That is anathema, when one's goal is to drive it down!?
According to Mercedes 75% of all the diesel cars they have EVER sold are still on the road today.
The hybrids may be junked after 10 years, diesels are kept on the road due to their extreme longevity.
Detail! Something to actually back up the extraordinarily vague MPG claims.
JOHN
Mercedes is a step above VW & Toyota, which skews the claim.
"EVER" sold means worldwide, making the United States data a total mystery.
How long is to "today"? When did they begin selling them?
"75%" doesn't inform much. What are the actual quantities... and for that matter, what models?
JOHN
I average 44mpg per tank (and I check my average EVERY tank). I have gotten as low as 41mpg with almost 100% city driving and my highest HWY tank was 52mpg with 100% hwy, but I usually average 49mpg with almost 100% hwy. But, I'll start making spreadsheets for you if that is what you want. Granted, it might take a little time as I don't have to fill up as often as I did with my Corolla.
I don't know what you mean by Vague...I've seen plenty of people posting their real world averages in this very forum.
How can you possibly make that claim? There isn't any SUMMER data even available yet for the new Prius.
So either you are drawing conclusions without waiting for a whole year of data (the only truly objective measurement), or you are quoting data for the old Prius.
JOHN
"Most tests and folks report 40-45 mpg."
I am not making that claim!
This is for the 2004 Prius's!
Since you indicate being a 2004 Prius owner, what has been your experiences?
Shall we also accord your experiences as "vague" also??
On the return trip 6225 to zero altitude same conditions. Got 49 mpg.
Since this TDI was gotten for "commute," 50 mile R/T 35 mins to a high of 1.25 hrs each way, we get between 48-50 mpg.
I also have about 5 hrs of cockpit time in the Prius. You are right, it is almost spooky quiet at "idle" It also had pretty fair acceleration. I took it to an 85 mph on the freeway in traffic.
"I have some questions. What year and model is your VW. Do you have the automatic or 5 speed? Did you test drive the hybrids before you bought the VW? I would love to test drive one of the Passatt TDI's. The closest dealer that has them is Phoenix. I may have to fly over and give one a try. I am not in a big hurry to buy another vehicle. I have 3 that all run perfect though a bit old. "
Sure, 2003 VW Jetta TDI, GL, 5sp man, I also have the dreaded GY LS-H tires.
I test drove a 2003 Prius, but didn't like it at all. Of course they said the 2004 was "redesigned" So my local Toyota dealer gave it to me for a day, when I brought my Landcruiser in for a brake pad swap.
Yeah, if I want to test drive a TDI Passat my closest is Reno, NV and/r Las Vegas, NV. For a heads up,CA will register a 2004 TDI,BUT has to have the 7500 mile (used) moniker.
The other thing is that the passengers I had did mention that it drew a lot of stares!