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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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According to the article, the fix applies to all of the 2002 - 2005 Toyota/lexus line equipped with the 5-speed automatic transmission.
Let us know if you get the software fix and if it solves your problem.
I thought it was time to be counted as an RX owner that DOES HAVE the hesitation problem. There may be possibly others like myself. The reason I'm coming out is regarding the post where most folks didn't report the hesitation issue. (pilot130)
FYI, build date 08/04 (04 Model year), built in Canada.
Love the car for most part, but HATE the hesitation issue.
A $40K car should not do this!!!
Currently car has 7.5K miles, we'll go for the upgrade at the 10K oil change and check up if positive news is posted here regarding the SW upgrade.
I will report back after the upgrade.
P.S. Eventhough I was quiet here....I did complain to LEXUS and the dealer and got the standard response...it's performing as designed.
I see too many complex factors in what causes an accident to presume that a floppy gas pedal is dangerous all by itself. If anything, accelerating to get out of trouble is often a very bad idea. I think more people hit things while stabbing the gas in a panic than laying off it to see what develops.
I personally can't see a good driver not being able to deal with a simple hesitation, as annoying as it might be. How can not going anywhere for a split second cause an accident? If the fear is about being rammed from behind, that's always the fault of the other driver, not you and not your car.
I worry that claiming safety issues dilutes rather than enhances the consumer's chance of redress in cases like this because it is such a stretch in terms of probability, and in the face of evidence or lack thereof. Usability of the product and comparison of performance to other products is the horse you want to beat on. "Similar cars do not do this" and "I have suffered loss of use" are good tactics, safety claims are IMO a very dubious route.
1. Slowing in a turn lane to make a left turn, there is a break in traffic so you accelerate and now are sitting in the middle of the lane with oncoming traffic and getting no response - 1 - 2 seconds can be an eternity in this position.
2. Driving 20 - 30 mph in a merge lane onto an interstate, you are nearing the end of the merge lane and there is a break in traffic that requires you to accelerate. You move into the traffic lane, press the gas, and nothing happens. Yes you are hit from behind, so it may be considered the other driver's fault, but it is still an accident and someone could end up hurt.
If an accident occured in either of these situations, I don't know if it would be reported as caused by a hesitating transmission -- particularly if the driver were injured and not able to explain what happened.
As a consumer, I would expect a safety hazard to take precedence over all other concerns and not be something that dilutes the issue. But lack of safety does impact usability (I cannot drive this car because it is too dangerous in the conditions I must drive in every day) , so you may have a point there. :sick:
This is were your "loss of use" argument works so much better. You argue that you have to change your driving habits and drive "with a handicap".
I don't wish to be stubborn, but I'm trying to frame this in the terms by which it would most likely be judged---not to dispute your apprehension about it.
Saying your car has a safety defect is a very dubious speculation to be judged in places were speculation doesn't do very well.
But proving loss of use (trips to dealer, having to compensate while driving) or comparative deficiency compared to like cars (correspondence of your complaints to various organizations, driving other friend's cars) is not speculative, it's actual data you have or witnesses you can use.
Can anyone confirm that the update actually exists rather than the Post-Gazette article?
I have absolutely no question that the sudden spontaneous and totally unpredictable fogging over of my new 1992 LS400 windshield was extremely dangerous. But being able to prove something often means being able to replicate the situation "at will", or with some reliability.
The first rule of troubleshooting almost anything is to find a way to replicate the problem or complaint. So far it appears that none of us has any idea what parameters lead to the engine hesitation delay.
And yes, sometimes hesitating before "jumping" can be the safe thing to do. But that doesn't by any means that not being able to "jump" isn't dangerous.
That argument just simply doesn't equate.
In regards to Mr. Shiftright's post. I guess I can respect where you are coming from. You are saying it is too difficult to prove that he condition is unsafe, as in going to court or arbitration over it. I agree. It would be difficult. But that does not mean that it is safe, as I think wwest was saying. I would hope that NHTSA doesn't have to go to those same levels of proof. It they do some test drives and notice an unreasonable amount of response time from the time the accelerator is pressed until the car responds in a normal driving situation, then can't they deem it unsafe without waiting for there to be an accident where they can prove that the hesitation was the cause?
Well, hopefully this is all moot if the software upgrade is effective. They did try a software upgrade earlier for the Lexus and it did not help, so until we get some reports, the jury is out. jbolt, I think it may take some time. If Toyota just announced the fix on April 12, I would think it would be several weeks or longer to get the word out to their dealerships. I wonder, will they be required to notify owners in writing or will they just be waiting for customers to come in with a complaint before implementing the fix?
"ECM CALIBRATION: SHIFT FEELING ENHANCEMENT" '02-'03 ES 300 & '04-'05 ES 330, and specifically states:
"To imporve the transmission shift feeling during specific operating modes, the Engine Control Module (SAE term: Powertrain Control Module/PCM) calibration has been revised. These improvements include:
-Reduced downshift lag when accelerating at speeds from 10-20 mph
-Less gear hunting when driving on/off accelerator pedal at 20-30 mph (for example: during heavy rush-hour traffic)
-Improved response rate druing heavy acceleration from a stop.
I hope that anyone getting this TSB performed will promptly report back here. I wonder if Toyota has the same (or similar) TSB?
Jeff
Did they install the transmission programming upgrade recently? Apparently sometime earlier this month, Toyota issued what I think must be a new software upgrade (see jbolt's post above re. '02-'03 ES 300 & '04-'05 ES 330 and Pittsburgh Post Gazette article about all 02 - 05 Toyota/Lexus models with 5 speed auto transmission)
NEWS isn't always NEW.
"The upgrades produce "incremental improvement in shift quality," spokesman Wade Hoyt said. The problem may still exist for some owners, and the company continues to work on other fixes, he added."
So, even they aren't deeming this as The Fix if they are continuing to work on "other " fixes.
Toyota Sequoia Owners: Problems and Solutions.
While keeping in mind that the engine hesitation seems to pertain ONLY to FWD or front torque bias AWD and the Sequoia is RWD or rear biased.
"Toyota has announced computer software upgrades that it says should help eliminate hesitation problems in five-speed automatic transmissions in 2002 to 2005 models, a company spokesman said."
link title
Yes, I am more convinced that this is not The Fix, just something to tide things over until The Fix can be determined.
"Warranty application is limited to correction of a problem based upon a customer's specific complaint"
You must complain to get the update.
One thing I have learned (and this is not just a Toyota issue btw) is that the dealerships are not always aware of the TSBs or at least they act like they have never heard of the problem until the customer mentions it. That is why it is good to stay up to speed on what has been issued for your vehicle.
This whole fuss may be based on bad information.
Even right down to verification that "dithering" ("driving on/off") of the gas pedal has something to do with the hesitation symptom.
August 4th, 2003.....
That was over 1.5 years ago, indicating that Toyota and Lexus have known of the EXACT nature of this problem for at least two years.
Interesting side note:
Why would 2005 vehicles need to be updated via an TSB issued long before, 8/4/2003, they were manufacturered??
Somebody not keeping good track of firmware revisions....??!!
Over two years and still NO FIX.
I'm going to try some "inside lines" and see if I can find out the buzz on the block, from different dealers.
I have had a problem where I knew a TSB existed (this was not for Toyota/Lexus), went to the dealership on my next service visit and asked about the TSB and they denied it existed. I then told them that I knew it was issued in Feb. 2003 and I would call back with the exact TSB number for them, and then they miraculously "found" the TSB. They look these things up on a computer, so I don't know how they would miss it initially. Wrong keyword? I think the second time around they found it by the date.
It would be a good idea to call the Toyota corporate help number on this to see what they have to say about the software upgrade and TSB.
jbolt's TSB is for the Lexus ES300 and ES330, so that TSB# isn't going to do you any good. I wonder if there is a similar earlier TSB for the Camry that may be gettinjg revised as well. How long has the Camry had the 5-speed automatic? I can see what I can find on NHTSA.
It was what the recruiter DIDN'T tell me that later turned out to be important.
This would agree with earlier posts commenting on the fact that Toyota may not be able to just change these calibrations with out getting permission from the EPA and CARB (Californis Air Resources Board). I would guess getting this approval is a time consuming process.
This would also seem to indicate that the EPA and CARB have now approved this upgrade for the '04 and '05 ES330, which has a different engine than the '02 and '03 ES300. (3.3L V6 vs 3.0L V6)
My point being if this has just been approved for the newer engines, it might be a different upgrade than is being applied to the 02 and 03 models.
(example, a security upgrade for Windows ME would be different than a security upgrade for Windows XP)
Do we have owners of 02 or 03 Lexuses (Lexi?) that have had an improvement from this earlier upgrade? My memory seems to tell me most of the comments lately have been from 04 and 05 models. (My memory isn't perfect!)
I do not trust any thing that Pittsburg newspaper guy writes. Half the time he doesn't know what he is talking about. I think he mostly writes what people feed him.
For the record, I own a 2005 Highlander V6 which doesn't seem to exhibit the hesitation. Perhaps, if one of the folks that own vehicles that hesitate were to drive mine, they might experience it. I dunno
"The upgrades produce "incremental improvement in shift quality," spokesman Wade Hoyt said. The problem may still exist for some owners, and the company continues to work on other fixes, he added."
My mistake. I should have added "and then he puts his own spin on it."
I still think the guy is out to lunch no matter wher he gets his information.
YOU GUYS have done a much better job with your own research right here than anything I've seen anywhere else on any media.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef14656!make=Lexus&model=ES%20300&ed_makeind- - ex=.ef14656
This post is from someone who was initially satisfied with the fix:
#208 of 699 upgrade by wrd Nov 04, 2003 (10:19 pm)
Reply
My 02 has 22k miles and the "upgrade". Before the upgrade it had a shudder at about 40mph when accellerating. Annoying. After the upgrade the 1/2 and 2/3 shifts are very inconsistant. One time it shifts perfectly, the next time the 1/2 and 2/3 shifts take 2-3 seconds and sound and feel like a slipping clutch on a standard shift auotmobile. Also annoying and maybe dangerous. At highway speed there is a 3-4 second lack of response when asked to accelerate. I consider this definitly dangerous. It took over a year to get any satisfaction from Lexus. They at first admitted a problem and said a fix was due by July 03. In July they said there was no problem and no fix in development, the car was performing as designed. Shortly thereafter I became aware of the upgrade in this message board. My car was the first done by my dealership. They have since done all the 300's in their loaner fleet and their salesmens cars. So much for it being only a minority of customers affected. I have complained about the way it now shifts and the tech has driven it, noted the problems and told me that Lexus considers it fixed. There is nothing more that can be done. I called Lexus Customer Satisfaction and got the same propaganda. I have owned two LS400s. A 93 and now a 97. Both cars have in excess of 140k miles and shift perfectly all the time every time.I have also driven Yugos and Kias and they shift better than a ES300. Automatic transmissions have been around for over 50 years. There is no excuse for such bad performance. There is no excuse for the manufacurer of a luxury automobile stonewalling its customers like this. Our only hope for satisfaction is to get this problem into automotive publications and the newspapers. Hurt their sales until they cure the problem. By the way, I have driven several 03s and noticed a problem in EVERY one of them. I have also driven a brand new Acura TL and I prefer my ES300 to the Acura. If the shifting were fixed it would be a near perfect automobile. Almost as good as my 400.My apologies for ranting.
-------------------
One thing I have learned from reading the above forum postings -- this problem sure has been going on for a long time!
This guy says he's had Yugos and they shift better than a Lexus.
All the Yugos I ever saw had manual transmissions.
I don't think they ever made an automatic transmission.
The message I leave you with is the same as Kraft's.
Be careful of what you glom onto here.
Back on Topic.
Looks like I stand corrected on my earlier post, which states:
"Here's what we know for sure.
1.The issue exists and is bothersome for some.
2.Toyota/Lexus recognises its existence and has committed to fixing it.
3.A remedy of some description has been identified by Toyota/Lexus.
4.No one can state conclusively if it is a widespread phenomenon.
5.No one can state conclusively how severe it is when it occurs; it apparently varies in duration, although the majority of reported incidents are "momentary" in nature.
6.Other makes with 5 speed transmissions are reported to have similar characteristics.
7.Toyota/Lexus seems to be the only automaker stepping up to the plate about it.
8.No one can state conclusively it is or isn't a safety hazard, and no accidents or injuries have been reported."
Looks like No.3 is still up for grabs.
Ain't no absolutes in life --but you of all people must know that.
However, if you are aware of anything new re No.7, please let us know.
Last I heard, Toyota was the only one to publicly acknowledge the issue, and publicly commit to fixing it. That qualifies as stepping up to the plate in my books.
Not bad, considering how some feel about Toyota.
Nevertheless, I am sure of all the rest.(1,2,4,5,6, and 8)
That's all we know so far, at least as far as factual goes.
And I'm willing to wager serious money that Lexus shifts better than Yugo.
Any takers?
The Toyota representative speaking to the Post reporter undoubtedly knew the TSB DID NOT APPLY to most of the owners having complaints and so he carefully, craftilly, worded his statements such as to be misleading.
Obviously he accomplished his goal, look at all the owners that got their hopes up over his misleading NEW, OLD NEWS, statement.
So why is it that only the ES series has been addressed to date?
Is it possible that the ES series had some margin, slack, in the EPA/CAFE/CARB overall performance that the shift pattern could be reprogrammed and still have the vehicle remain within the original certification parameters?
Your guess??
That was two years ago, and the TSB issued then applied to vehicles two years ago. Things have changed since then. I think you're technically astute enough to recognize and accept that.
The rest of your post is, unfortunately, nothing but conjecture. I think you know that too.
Particularly the part where you speculate what and why the Toyota rep intended in his alledgedly quoted statement..
Furthermore, now knowing what a lousy journalist the Post Gazette guy is, how do we know anything he quotes is accurate---and more importantly, current?
One could just as easily speculate that he was quoting something two years old.
Conjecture, to be sure, but no less so than your remarks.
Either way, that doofus doesn't have a whole lot of credibility IMO.
My opinion in this issue? ( know you folks don't regard any opinion from me as relevant, but that's OK)
Here's what I think:
The problem, if you can call it that, (I call it a characteristic), may have more to do with the tranny valve section (plate) needing some tweaking as the ECM.
Have you ever seen one? Do you know how they work? Do you know how complex they are--aspecially in 5 and 6 speed trannys? We did a vision inspection system for GM Transmission in Windsor, Ontario a couple of years ago.(4 Speed) There are still a couple of sample valve bodies kicking around in the shop from that project. I'll send you one if you want when I get back!!
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