What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Speaking of Lexus. If they plan to catch up with BMW and Mercedes they need to figure out how to build a good diesel engine. Same goes for Acura and Infiniti. The Germans are eating their lunch. As usual the D3 has got their finger in their nose. No wonder we are losing out.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    This the 2nd tank full (dealer did the first), my first tank full on the 2012 VW Touareg. Continuing the break in phase, the pen and ink calculation of 36.02 mpg was very close to the computer calculation; which I had a hard time believing @ 35.8 mpg. EPA ratings are 19 C /28 H. The break in driving phase will continue in the herky jerky and aggressive style to give the best chance of developing good valve seating, maximum compression and proper turbo break in. It is a bit of a weird feeling in that @ 80 mph, the revs are @ 2,200 rpm. It is VERY quiet. It is also VERY nimble.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Is it fun to drive? Did you drive the X5 and ML350 as well? What was the nicest ride of the three? I am more into plush at my age.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    OH YES !! It is almost think it and it happens almost instantaneously !! It is VERY sports car like. The front tires are 10 narrower than the 265 Z06 front tires !! I am still getting used to it, being as how the CG seems much higher than say a Z06. A bit weird for the SUV's I am used to driving, in 25+ years !!

    I think if I had to nit pick, the BMW X5 35 D gets the nod for most sports car like. The MB ML350 just barely edges out the VW Touareg ride wise. In terms of nice, the Touareg has just enough "cat" to it. It is VERY agile, but yet very plush. All attributes considered, the three (BMW X5 35D, MB ML350, VW Touareg, are very very close.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The European magazines are saying the ML350 Bluetec has a 0-62 MPH at 7.4 seconds and will give over all 34 MPG. Very similar to what you are seeing with the Touareg. The EU version of your car gets about 36 MPG over all US measure and 0-62 in 7.6 seconds. Very comparable Stats.

    Mercedes ML350 Bluetec SE
    Price: £tbc (circa £45k); Top speed: 139mph; 0-62mph: 7.4sec; Economy: 41.5mpg; Co2: 179g/km; Kerbweight: 2175kg; Engine type, cc: V6, 2987cc, turbodiesel; Installation: Front, longitudinal, four-wheel drive; Power: 255bhp at 3600rpm; Torque: 457lb ft at 1600-2400rpm; Gearbox: 7-spd automatic
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    Indeed that was my SOTP's feelings also, but I didn't put 650 miles more on it, as I did the Touareg. All three dealers let me put app 100 miles each. The extra torque (49 # ft) to me is what gave the MB ML350 the edge. This was balanced a bit by the 8 speed vs 7 speed. The 8 speed (tiptronic?) is proving to be utterly seamless.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If we were ready to take a long driving trip around the USA, I would jump on the ML350 Bluetec. Kind of a waste to just let it sit in the garage like the Sequoia does. Mercedes does not offer European delivery on the ML, which is something I would like to do. Tour around Europe for a month or so. I will probably wait and see if either the ML250 Bluetec or GLK250 Bluetec makes it here. MB is up to 5 diesel offerings and more on the way. The other offering I would be strong on is the Audi A4 Allroad TDI. A very practical sized CUV.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    This might be off topic to even post this, but VW (again kudos' to VW for even doing this)has a supercharged V6 gasser with hybrid. lVW Touareg Hybrid

    It can put out 428 # ft of torque vs the TDI's @ 406 # ft. :blush: So really the combination is no slouch in the torque department, nor hp department for that matter (380 hp). EPA H = 24 mpg. The nexus here is it FEELS like a V-8 (coulda woulda shoulda?) :surprise:

    So to always think of the Prius as the be all to end all use of hybrid technology might be a very narrow view. I have never heard a bells and whistles Toyota announcement but they had to beef up the puny gas engine to allow the hybrid settings to give them the 20% mpg boost.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    Yes, since I think the ML 350 Bluetec is made in the USA (Alabama?). That might defeat the purpose of the Euro delivery. ;) I wonder if they would do a factory pick up, so you can tour the USA? I know that is a biggie thing in the Corvette community. It is way past my pay grade to know where the MB ML/GLK 250's are in the logistic chains.

    It was mild surprise to find out the Touareg was assembled in Slovakia. There is no real data as to the Japanese vendor that builds or supplies the 8 speed automatic transmission.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    VW's gas engine used for a baseline is uncompetitive, so that skews those results a bit and makes the diesel look even better.

    Still, if the gas engine is lousy, may as well get the diesel...in fact that's yet another reason to do so.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Continuing the break in phase, the pen and ink calculation of 36.02 mpg was very close to the computer calculation; which I had a hard time believing 35.8 mpg. EPA ratings are 19 C /28 H.

    Hypermiling, or all highway? Almost seems too good to be true.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited April 2012
    If the EPA was at all close to reality for diesels I would agree. But the European figures are much closer to reality for those I have talked to. My friend with the GL320 CDI gets right at 28 MPG on his high speed trips from Oregon to San Diego. Rarely under 75 MPH on Interstate 5. The EPA is 23 MPG Highway. If I did not think the ML350 BLuetec would do an easy 30 MPG on the HWY I would not even consider it to replace the Sequoia. I would rather get 35 MPG or more but I am realistic in my hopes. I know MB diesels are capable of great mileage. Over the 5000 miles I put on our MB Cruiser it got 25 MPG several tanks and never under 22 MPG. That is a big tall motor home. So mid 30s should not be that hard to accomplish. You cannot be racing from light to light and get those numbers. I doubt any of the 0-60 Magazine crowd will get decent mileage from a diesel.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Even so, the high for user reports on the EPA site is 32mpg, so 36mpg on the 2nd tank must be lots of highway miles.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    ..."Almost seems too good to be true"...

    I think for you, you believe that to be true. It appears you also think that under similar conditions, that you would not post similar numbers that I have gotten for any TDI.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited April 2012
    I don't really think the average MB customer hangs around or posts on the EPA mileage site. I did not see any postings for the 2012 ML350 Bluetec, which is an all new beast with much better mileage according to the factory. If the EPA is off by at least 25% on the VW TDI, they are likely that far off on all diesels. The tests were redone to get the goofy hybrid owners off their tail. No other good reason to change. Unless they were flawed before. Which makes them suspect now. They are over paid Federal employees, what more can be said. They have an agenda and the US consumer is NOT high on their agenda.

    PS
    The two ML diesel owners I have encountered both loved the vehicle and neither one kept track of how many MPG.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    It would seem for the three vehicles in question, only two drivers have posted.

    I think your observations are probably more spot on than a lot of folks would like to admit. I think they just want to keep the illusion going that real mpg, really matters. It never has, still doesn't, and won't in the future. This has been true for at least 46 years that I have been acquainted with these issues.

    It has to be a series of extreme embarrassments for the "global du jour climate change" religious faithful to be incorrect, to flat out lying about the topic.

    When I was in college we were a slam dunk for global freezing and certain death due to massive crop failure, with massive die backs to the populations. China was one of THE 3rd world basket cases that deserved to be died back (Angel of Death had been issued its work order) . Gee a scant generation later, we are now globally warming instead of freezing . We grow more crops than we EVER have. The populations are bigger than ever. China now is one of the upcoming SUPER POWERS!!?? We were also supposed to be limited in natural resources. Somehow we discovered we are the beyond the middle east of natural gas, coal, AND oil. We are supposed to convert to solar and wind. The very same governments that mandate it, won't let us do it or make it economically untenable. It doesn't even make efficiency or cost sense without the same government doctoring the prices of natural gas coal and oil.

    Gee did the 7 little leprechauns magically put these pots of gold into the earth under the USA with none of us knowing about it?

    So getting back to the posting of my surprise mpg, the real utility here of a 26.6 gal tank would be a range of 936 miles. Swapping out 4 drivers that would be a heck of a cross country road trip !
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What's not to like about only filling 3 times, driving cross country from San Diego to Tampa Bay Florida? I would be lucky filling only 7 times in the Sequoia. Not to mention the additional cost. If I could squeeze 34 MPG out of the ML350 Bluetec it would be just double my 17 MPG average with the Sequoia. At current Gas/Diesel prices that would be about $550 savings on a round trip. To keep it all in perspective, motels have gone up considerably more than the price of gas over the last 20 years. Finding a decent room for less than $125 a night with tax is difficult. So for me the driving dynamics and range of the diesel SUV outweigh the cost savings.

    I would say just to underline the lack of interest in posting mileage on the EPA site. The same goes here on Edmund's. Only a handful of owners of the newer Mercedes diesels have bothered to comment at all. It looks like 3 posters mentioned mileage, all were happy with the diesel engine. 24-25 MPG around town, 28 MPG at 80 MPH on the Highway. Last mention was over 5 years ago.

    Which brings me to these conclusions. People that own diesel SUVs are happy with them and having too much fun out driving to spend time on Edmund's or the EPA site.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    Indeed !!

    To me it just almost blows my mind to be able to go to 936 miles (Las Vegas and (pretty close to ) back @ Silicon Valley, CA) and not even have to fill !! You also got to love covered parking !! ?? Worst cases, I can fill near two outlet mall areas: one in CA (on the way to or from) and the other near Las Vegas ( on the way either to or from). The down side of course is it gives new meaning to the complaint that a tank of fuel costs SOOOOOO much now a days. ;)

    Yet again, I find myself in sparsely populated but great company (2003 Jetta TDI was one of 9,000 units or 4% of total US VW production) and absolutely the situations are AGAIN WONDERFUL.

    I have been and am more than satisfied with the 2009 VW Jetta TDI, despite the less than one half of 1 percent HPFP issues and the well deserved old perception of poor VW dealership service. Other than washing the vehicle when I specifically asked them not to, service has been sterling. The IRS tax credit for alternative fuel/ clean diesel did not hurt at the time either. :P

    Doing some background research, it seems the Touareg was redesigned in 2011. . As such, the 2011 total Touareg sales posted app 7,535 units. 2011 VW sales So the 2012 Touareg's are a tweaking and in some issues, part of the constant improvement programs. I for one love constant improvements. I have read that so far March 2012, sales are app 2,302. 2012 VW March Sales

    In the grander scheme of things, (projected yearly 2012 car sales of 14.5 to 15.5 M) who cares what less than 10,000 folks have to say about a crossover SUV turbo diesel over 2 years? Who cares what 2302 people have to say about the 2012 Touareg? Let alone who cares about the (even smaller) subset 2012 VW Touareg TDI's? (.0001587% or certainly much LESS?) I would swag less than 30% are TDI or 691 units/ people !!!!! ?????(Geez, .0000476%)

    Now, I would guess that VW really wants to keep the Touareg subset happier than clams. The TDI subset is even SMALLER!!!! So far while it is FAR too early to really tell, I am !
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Have you noticed the whole Adblue issue has gone away as well. The horror stories of the MB Dealers charging $300-$500 to fill your Adblue tank. Latest info I can find is VW sells the same 32.5% urea solution in a 2.5 gallon jug for $15. That means about $30 for 15,000 miles approximately. MB still over charging. Don't most lux vehicles have free service the first 50k miles as part of the warranty? Which includes topping the Adblue with each oil change?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    Even if it has not gone away, VW basically does everything to keep it very low on the annoyance list. $30 for 15,000 miles is certainly one of them. Another is that AdBlue topping is covered for 3 years/36,000 miles as part of the 3 free 10,000 miles services.

    It is the height of arrogance for MB dealerships to charge what you are saying !!!

    In the Touareg, it is find the container in the middle of the spare tire, pop the container's cap, pour in the product and stop so it does not over flow. Even I can do it ! ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2012
    The evidence for climate change and overall global warming is overwhelming at this point. The root causes are still in contention but the data is not.

    There is lots of misinformation being spread by people who are scamming for publicity and money, but in fact global scientists are pretty united in their understanding of the problem.

    I only mention this because all automakers, and in fact just about all industries, have climate change on their plate and will continue to respond to it as a real problem, both in terms of engineering AND politics.

    If "follow the money" is good advice, then look to where global industry is placing their bets.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just as a note, many who thought we would see Carbon Tax legislation, lost $100s of millions on that gamble. Guys like Al Gore, so sad. :blush:

    For me I am trying to do my part by cutting my CO2 in half with a high mileage SUV. The Feds are not making it easy.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    Actually much to most of the housing debacle is due to some of that "betting" . SFH's has (long) been deemed public enemy #1 in urban planning circles. . As anyone can see, "we have been in the "we will hunt you down and KILL you lather". The buzz word is 20 or + more per acre. Normally that would be total and complete SNOOZE villa, to HUH????? Of course the language makes it sound much more gential than that. :sick: Think of it in car terms as cash for clunkers.

    The other side of this you can see, aka watching paint dry in a HUMID environment . In Detroit for example: To make a long store short, 144 sq miles of once vibrant and growing city was "policy ed out" to be gutted. So now app 44 sq miles are literally and figuratively DEAD. So the grand plan using Detroit ONLY as an example would be for ONLY 20 PLUS+ per acre will be built when new housing is called for.

    So a more modern day example would be thinking of places like that as getting Tokyo 'ed. The ultimate irony is traffic congestion will be exponentially GREATER. ;) :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The issue of Adblue/DEF made it to the NY Times.

    At Silver Star Motors in Long Island City, Queens, a Mercedes service adviser quoted me a price of $7 a quart for the emissions fluid, or $28 a gallon.

    But retailers including AutoZone and Napa Auto Parts offer 2.5-gallon jugs of DEF for around $13, barely $5 a gallon, meaning that some dealers are marking up the fluid more than 600 percent over retail prices.

    BMW, for its part, gives its diesel owners free urea fill-ups under its four-year, 50,000-mile scheduled service plan. Volkswagen covers refills for three years and 36,000 miles. For BMW, the plan would pay for four annual fill-ups. In contrast, a Mercedes dealer’s four premium pours would pluck roughly $900 to $1,200 from an owner’s pocket.


    http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/a-lower-cost-filling-solution-for-the- -mercedes-benz-ml350-bluetec/
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The ML is as smooth as Wonka’s chocolate river and as good at ferrying children. It’s as quiet as any S.U.V. I’ve tested. Even the diesel’s unobtrusive tick-tock sound, audible with the windows open, is virtually extinguished in the sealed compartment.

    Mercedes estimates a dead-heat 0-to-60 m.p.h. run of 7.3 seconds for either the gasoline or diesel model. That’s rather snappy performance for a vehicle that weighs more than 5,000 pounds.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/automobiles/autoreviews/a-solid-mercedes-luxur- y-option-with-many-options.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Like I said, it was my opinion that turbo diesels make more sense in heavy SUVs than in lightweight hybrids. This seems to bear that out.

    When I say "makes more sense" I mean that from a marketing as well as a technical point of view.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Absolutely makes sense, so why are the domestics always behind the curve. they lost out 30 years ago on the small car market to the Japanese. The Germans are cleaning their clocks on diesels. The D3 should take the cue and start building lighter duty Diesel PU trucks, before the Japanese and Koreans beat them to the punch.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,156
    I also agree, for the reverse reason - big hybrids are crazy expensive because of the battery size needed, look at the VW Touareg for example. Turbo diesel definitely the way to go at that size.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2012
    yet another reason.

    Well domestic manufacturers are behind the curve for the same reason NASA can't go to the moon anymore.

    No Germans :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    Funny how this is working out, but (I found out) Aisin provides VW Touareg's 8 speed automatic transmission TR 80 SD, the high torque version. I have read in passing it's maximum torque specification is up to 627 # ft of torque. This provides a large safety factor (54%) for an engine that puts out (only) 406 # ft . :shades: Over built is good !

    In addition, it is seemingly buttery smooth in shifting 8 speeds and seamlessly. I am finding that if one lets the A/T do the work with a modest degree of anticipation, it almost effortlessly aids in modulating the speed, for a lot less brake application. It does have the "manual" automatic shift GATE for that "tiptronic" option/experience. I currently use it to help in engine break in on the deceleration and up to 80% of redline rpm range.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Does the Touareg require an expensive service like the Jetta DSG? Does the V6 TDI have a timing belt that has to be changed?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    No. Listed as "LIFETIME". But then there are whole computer procedures to do stuff such as R/R ??

    No. The V-6 is a single turbo, chain driven TDI.

    Something tells me I might have to buy the (Bentley's) technical manual/data just to keep up with the inner workings and realities of this mechanic and electrical symphony.
  • richardsonrichardson Member Posts: 92
    I thought it was funding. Remember "The Right Stuff". No funding, no Buck Rogers.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2012
    Funding helps but all the real talent in NASA died or quit, so.......

    I think you could sell the american people a lot easier on paying for cleaner air, better MPG, and better roads than you could sell them on a moonbase.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I agree with what you just said and find it very sad. It is a BIG reason we are losing our leadership in the World. There is LITTLE to inspire our young people to greatness.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQhNZENMG1o
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I really like Tyson...cool guy. America is one of those "full on or full off" countries for some reason. We don't like to plod toward a goal.

    Videotape machines? NAHHHH!

    Digital Cameras? NAHHHHH!

    Tablet computers? YEAH!!!

    Small Turbo Diesels NAHHHHH!

    700HP Muscle Cars! YEAH!!

    A BMW 3-Series Competitor --- oh...um...we do need to get around to that....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Today the GL 350 BlueTEC 4MATIC with SCR technology and AdBlue® injection already undercuts the EU 5 emissions standard which is planned for 2014. With a consumption of 38 mpg (NEDC overall), the diesel model returns a 20 percent improvement over its predecessor. With a CO2 figure of 192 g/km the GL 350 BlueTEC achieves the best value in its power category. In spite of the considerably reduced energy requirement, performance is significantly increased. Whilst the maximum output of the first-generation GL 350 BlueTEC was 211 hp and the maximum torque 540 newton metres, the new model now boasts 258 hp and 620 newton metres.

    That is 31+ MPG US combined. What 5500 lb 7 passenger SUV hybrid comes close to that kind of MPG? Plus tow a 7500 lb trailer. That should be showing up soon on our shores. For my tastes it is a bit too big. I am really leaning toward the ML350 Bluetec. About $20k less as well.

    GL350 Bluetec

    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    do.... not...put...vehicle...in....drive.... :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    The diesel SUV's that gets 25 PLUS + mpg actually fulfills a dream, a long time in coming. (25-30 years) 3 more EPA H mpg is really icing on the cake. : :shades: The majority of mainstream so called economy cars barely get 25 H EPA. I was surprised to find out that some ubiquitous TOYOTA Camry's were actually eligible for the recent (2009 time frame?) "CASH for CLUNKERS" program. I read one article where one turned his in for something with a bit better than 19 mpg (that is what he got) and another because he could, turned his in for a "approved" full sized pick up truck. Go figure !!! ???

    Now that I have seen the fulfillment, I am thinking now the next goal (hopefully much shorter in time till completion) is more like 35-45 mpg. :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,632
    I'm waiting for the C250 CDi to roll out...one of those could be my next car if it handles well and gets amazing mileage.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    Yes, that is the real thing, as your preference would imply: in that every ("desirable") car already has its diesel competing model on the world wide, if not European markets !!! :sick: :lemon: Better mpg and better road adaptability are already here and in effect, old, trailing news.

    The SUV's are significant in the sense that the majority (75% of the passenger vehicle fleet) of mid to large cars to SUV's get WAY lower mpg, aka. 15 mpg to on a good day 20 mpg. So in theory, IF the majority of the larger car to SUV segments were to get better mpg, say from 15 mpg to 25 mpg or 67% better fuel mileage (40% savings), it is a larger percentage and volume savings that smaller cars doing the same (25% of the passenger vehicle fleet), as per Edmunds article on that subject.

    All the mantra's and environmental wacko propaganda indicates that saving fuel and being less dependent on foreign oil, yada, yada, are the stated AND defacto goals.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    what is wacko about saving fuel and being less dependent on foreign oil? Without a kick in the butt from environmentalists, the auto industry would be stuck in 1965. Emissions and fuel economy standards were the best thing that ever happened to the auto industry.

    Still is.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited April 2012
    ..."what is wacko about saving fuel and being less dependent on foreign oil? "...

    Indeed that has been the front burner question for at least 40 years.

    ..."Without a kick in the butt from environmentalists, the auto industry would be stuck in 1965. Emissions and fuel economy standards were the best thing that ever happened to the auto industry. "...

    Indeed if the environmentalist truly had their way, the iconic hero would be a homeless person on the Streets of San Francisco, Seattle, you name it.

    The advocations and the results are each from separate universes. You can see it in this very narrow topic diesel topic.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Without a kick in the butt from environmentalists, the auto industry would be stuck in 1965.

    Which reminds me of the VW bus plastered with every environmental sticker ever printed driving down by the beach spewing black smoke. It was Nixon that started the EPA ball rolling not any of the Eco nuts that would have US live in caves or VW buses.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2012
    straw man argument, weak. Surely you could find a worse villain than a homeless person to set up and knock down. :P (see below)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2012
    Well sure, there are fringe groups in *any* movement.

    A good and rational discussion should always focus on the mainstream element of any point of view.

    America always runs best when steered from the middle, I like to say.

    The problem in this country is always the same---we don't look far enough ahead when we tackle problems. We aren't great planners, we are much better do-ers.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So is that your defacto acknowledgement that it really has not had much effect? ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That WHAT has had not much effect?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    CAFE has not had much effect on the buying public.

    We are selling more PU Trucks and SUVs along with the high mileage vehicles. People would love to get better mileage in their PU truck or SUV, just not possible with ethanol laced gasoline. Diesel is the best answer to consumer needs and wants. Most people are clueless that the option exists. Unless they happen to be German vehicle fans.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."The problem in this country is always the same---we don't look far enough ahead when we tackle problems. We aren't great planners, we are much better do-ers."...

    ;)
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