I think to get the American OEMS off the collective cans is a GOOD thing. BUT at times, I really do not know what that really means !! We can of course discuss what contexts we THINK it might mean !? So for example, despite vilifications of less refinement, Chevrolet continues to do a stellar job in the Corvette line !! There are of course others (GM line, etc). BUT, I am familiar anecdotally with the Corvette. The main issue, which for whatever reasons you do not put into context are that oems like GM/Ford/Chrysler want/forced into stuff like the Malibu so they can sell the majority of LARGER cars/trucks that get anywhere from 25 mpg to 12 mpg.
In the case of the the Jetta TDI's (49 H epa)s verses Chevrolet Malibu(33 H epa) Eco (did not see the option in Edmunds), it took Chevy a min of 15 years and a (WW?) bankruptcy threat to the whole US economy to finally get in Jetta's "current" ballpark, albeit Jetta TDI fuel economy still 22.2% better (highway spa of 33/42. This is down from 48% better (49 H epa) Meanwhile VW joined the American power wars and exceeds the Malibu by 48%.
It is funny that Chevy does not give the US taxpayers (they say WE bailed GM out) a discount on models like these.
I hope you do not perceive an argument from me, as to the figures. I got them from the linked source. I would hope YOU are happy with your car choices AND mpg figures.
I do not know what I would get on above mentioned vehicles for obviously I do not drive them, nor give 175,000 miles or even 35,000 + impressions .
..."We drove an Australian version of a diesel Cruze and its fuel economy disappointed. It was rated at 35 combined mpg in Australia, but we only averaged about 27 mpg, although that was under heavy footing during canyon driving. GM will have to push well beyond that in the U.S. if they want buyers to pass up the Cruze Eco.
On the other hand, we were impressed with the diesel Cruze's quiet engine operation and substantial low-end torque. GM hasn't announced an arrival date for the new diesel Cruze, but we'd expect it sometime late next summer. Check back for more information as it's available for the 2013 Chevrolet Cruze."...
I am actually waiting for a 175,000 miles + review of the Eco Cruze. :shades:
Projection is for the 03 TDI will be ready for the third set of tires @ 230,000-240,000 miles. (55,000 to 65,000 miles) I am tending towards the Michelins Primacy MVX4's this time. :shades: OMG the last fill was 49.5 mpg !! As Simon and Garfunkle sing ... Slip Sliding Away. I should slow down. Fuel is currently @ 4.41 per gal ULSD. :shades:
So they drove it as hard as they could manage and then complained that it got mediocre fuel economy?
These auto magazine/auto review site guys are morons. If I tried that same sort of driving in a Prius, I'd get 25mpg at best as the motor would always be revving hard. Maybe 20, even. They think that anything over 6 seconds is glacially slow, and that every car has to have every possible option including backup cameras, navigation, and what next? It's crap if it doesn't park itself and massage your rear end?
Sometimes they are just out of touch with reality.
"The new model showcases Ford ECOnetic Technology innovations like Auto-Start-Stop, Smart Regenerative Charging, Eco Mode and shift indicator light. It also benefits from a bespoke engine calibration and optimised gear ratios. A lower suspension, undershield and wheel deflectors as well as low-rolling resistance tyres are used to further reduce driving resistances."
I think the biggest thing folks are ignoring is the LIKE for LIKE model comparison. EVERYONE is quick to do apples to oranges to pears comparisons. Unless one has leveling parameters it is difficult at best.
You know that would almost be a game-changer because for many people the gas savings per year over their 25 mpg car would pay for about 6 months car payments on the Fiesta. And for someone getting about 15-16 mpg, it would pay for all the car payments. So budget wise, it would be a "free" new car.
Indeed !! The three competitors, MB ML350 Bluetec, BMW X5 35D, VW Touareg TDI, all seem neck and neck, once you get to down to the core characteristics. Each is almost bewilderingly configurable, either in the real world or if one orders from the factory. Configuration depends on what one is looking for and preferences and for practical purposes, what one wants to pay. Having said that, there are a few kinks.The interesting thing is both are made in the US. The Touareg is assembled in Slovakia. The engine is from Hungary. The transmission is from JAPAN !! ? Parts are 32% Slovakian and 25% German.
There are literally almost no local appreciable stocks of the ML 350 Bluetec's and the ones that ARE = pricey, as configured. The same is true with the BMW X5 35D and they are even PRICIER ! The ride on the BMW seems to be the most sports car like! There are slightly precious more local stocks with the VW Touareg TDI. The good news for all three, wider to more national searches can yield results in something one could want.
But to cut to the chase with only less than 500 break in mileage, the VW Touareg TDI (sport) is putting 31.8 mpg on the computer. There are almost always slight differences between the pen and ink calculations and the computer , but in truth not much. It is being kept under 80 mph. It is being subjected it to the up and down herky jerky break in rev patterns, within operational parameters !!! So far no issues.
GLK seems like it will be the first compact to reach the market, though. So the X3 and Tiguan would have to follow suit to get the same comparison.
I liked the idea of the GLK when they first started talking about it. But then the production model wound up too damned heavy and thirsty. Maybe this will take care of one of those problems.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Yes, so any to all three are just more likely concepts, albeit something we all read about in auto magazines or exists in Europe, BUT ...not here, USA GLK real world diesel impressions are probably 1 to 1.5 years away. There is currently no diesel stock. I only know one person with a G wagon and its a mpg dog. The (gasser) GLK is epa'd @ 22 mpg.
If the GLK 250 Bluetec can get high 30s on the highway it should be a hit. I still like the size of the ML better. I could be persuaded to downsize for 36 MPG or better on the HWY. The gasser at 21 MPG would not even get me to sit in it. The smaller tank on the GLK would not take advantage of the better mileage. I like a 26+ gallon tanks as used in the 6 diesel competitors now on the market. If you use the more realistic mileage figures on the European tests. The new ML350 Bluetec is hitting 33 MPG on the highway. With the 27.7 gallon tank you have a range of 900 miles.
It looks like Mercedes' 4-cylinder OM651 diesel will be coming to America in the redesigned GLK.
European pricing for the 250 Bluetec is 8% cheaper than the GLK 350 gasser. Europe also gets a V6 non-Bluetec diesel (priced about the same as the 350 gasser) as well as 200 (non-Bluetec) and 220 (Bluetec/non Bluetec) diesels. (priced lower than the 250)
In the European rating, the 250 Bluetec 4matic is rated at 39 mpg combined, compared to the new direct-injecting gasser's 29 mpg.
But then on the other hand, you arque the FORD ( diesel) will be a game changer when a diesel car (VW POLO TDI) that gets 3 mpg BETTER (74-75 mpg) that has been on the market for much longer is NOT ??
I would say judging by the increase in the diesel passenger car fleet, it is growing, AND faster than hybrids and of late, the plug in electrical, even as diesels are vilified and the other two are glorified.
Look, fin, they copied Lexus with the spindle up front, in gaudy chrome no less. That and the rear bumper. Is that supposed to look like a fake skid plate?
On the diesel ML I think it's standard, hopefully it's an option you can pass on.
The good - looks like it has a panoramic moonroof, and MPG could be best-in-class.
What YOU are trying to spin IS misleading. I have always talked in passenger diesel PERCENTAGE terms. So even you agree the math percentage wise is better for the diesel. So if I need to boiler plate and minutely qualify each post, then it is really you that is trying to spin what I say. Again everybody knows the percentage of diesel vehicles is 5% UP, from app 2%.
I have read in passing the hybrid fleet is app @ 2%. Again there are a lot of folks that want to see the energy issue solved as one magical bullet. I have always took the view that one should break it up and proof in the pudding so to speak is in the passenger fleet percentage.
Indeed how "WE" got into this "box" was in effect limiting the choices TO ONE magic bullet... RUG. Ethanol (E85) is truly going in the wrong direction, as it burns 25% MORE for the same mpg as RUG. Another is that ethanol has been given a pass, emissions wise. It is actually way more pollutive . What has gone unsaid for years is that ethanol is way more destructive of auto assets.
Diesel is another no brainer in that IT 23/24% component to refine 46% of RUG from a barrel of oil (42 gals) . Diesel is also a portal to BIODIESEL from many other new AND ongoing (waste and otherwise) sources.
Natural Gas should also be considered as we are way beyond the middle east of natural gas.
Hybrids can be dialed in different ways. The one way that it can be marginally useful is to turn off the use of gas engines. In the Priuses' case, app 20%. So for a contrast example, a gasser hybrid VW Touareg is EPA'd @ 24 mpg H and a gasser is EPA'd @ 23 mpg. The torque is 423# ft vs 265 # ft. But as it has been noted on this thread, torque even though it is used every day is like HUH ??????
I am not misleading anyone. What matters are hard sales, not % increase. You could sell 1 this month, 3 next month, and claim 200% increase. Who cares you still only sold 3 cars. Sales mean more than percentages.
I am not misleading anyone. What matters are hard sales, not % increase.
Actually what matters most is profit. What is the profit on an ML 350 Bluetec compared to a Prius. There is still speculation that the only profit in a Prius is raising the CAFE numbers to protect sales of the gas guzzlers in the Toy/Lex lineup. I doubt Toyota publishes any profit loss figures for individual models.
Nor am I. So I guess that is your way of saying you take back what you said about me/ the post being misleading.
The real problem is YOU are trying to make a contest, when there are .... NONE !
Another example was the multiple posts of ZERO to 60 sec contests. If it hasn't yet sunk in, diesels generally are slower, like model. Don't like it? Pretty simple, don't buy them.
..."There is still speculation that the only profit in a Prius is raising the CAFE numbers to protect sales of the gas guzzlers in the Toy/Lex lineup. I doubt Toyota publishes any profit loss figures for individual models."...
Those are absolute FACTs !!
The real issue is that the system that puts it into place is VERY opaque or dark.
Frankly, I think a comparison either way is kind of silly. The only way to know for sure is to compare a diesel and hybrid of the same manufacturer and preferably the same platform/size car. Toyota could offer a toilet bowl on wheels and it will still outsell anything from VW.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I dunno, didn't VW outsell Toyota globally last year? The latter had one hand tied behind its back with the tsunami, but still. VW probably has more resources, while Toyota was distracted with nuclear power plants making the surrounding marine life glow in the dark. :surprise:
He implied hybrids were not doing well, and that's just not true at all, in fact supply of the Prius C is way short.
Oil prices are up, diesels are doing well.
Hybrids are doing well also.
If your annoying, overly competitive brother-in-law bragged about a 54% pay increase, and made $6500 a month, while you got a 52% increase and your increase alone was more than his entire salary, would you let him get away with saying he got a bigger pay increase?
Then again, you are so far ahead, you don't need to brag. LOL
They've sold 3 million Prius already, I'm sure the costs were amortized ages ago.
The increases in TDI sales are encouraging, sure, but let's be real. They're still just a drop in the bucket.
I have to call SPIN TIME on you. They have sold 3 millions Prius WORLD WIDE over the last 10 years. How many Jetta/Golf TDIs World wide during that period. The USA has become a second level market. The point being VW is gaining on Toyota here and may have passed Toyota World wide. The real issue I see is manufacturing. China built more vehicles in 2011 than the USA and Japan combined.
HSD has been amortized many times over. They use the same powertrains across the globe, too.
No spin needed.
Prius is $24k while a Yaris is $15k. Do you honestly think $9k does not cover the already amortized cost of the HSD system? At RETAIL cost the battery pack is $2300. Figure wholesale at $1500 or so, you've got about $7500 cushion there and my guess is enormous profit margins.
No idea, how many Golf/Jetta TDIs are sold worldwide? Don't they sell 3 different diesels in each model? The USA only gets the big diesel.
Hybrids meet CARB emissions, while most diesels do not. VW is a bit of an exception here, actually, so kudos to them. Honda's and Subaru's diesels do not, so they can't amortize those costs with American sales. When they do launch them, there are CARB emissions costs to amortize. Advantage hybrids.
The point being VW is gaining on Toyota here
Actually, no, they fell 500 units further behind.
And that's only because they could not meet supply for the Prius C.
that's what I meant by a game-changer in the Ford. VW does not enjoy a great reputation in the USA for reliability, nor for affordability of repairs. Putting a high MPG "domestic" make diesel in the mix is something worth doing.
No idea, how many Golf/Jetta TDIs are sold worldwide? Don't they sell 3 different diesels in each model? The USA only gets the big diesel.
Actually we get the neutered TDI. The Golf GTD gets the hotrod TDI engine. Not sold in the USA.
When they do launch them, there are CARB emissions costs to amortize. Advantage hybrids.
I disagree. There is a lot more to the HSD than the batteries. When the HSD fails it is about $11k. The Catalytic convertor is $1100 according to one disgruntled Prius owner. The display that keeps you informed on how the car is performing is not warranted past the 3 yr mark and is quite expensive to replace. It is probably an argument that cannot be settled, as Toyota is not likely to even tell the stockholders what the margin is on the Prius. I think the other hybrids are soooo expensive I would hope they are making money on them. The HH limited with normal options has an MSRP over $50k. I would take the much nicer ML diesel for that kind of money. And be able to take it off road without worry and tow a decent sized trailer.
Gary says, "The Catalytic convertor is $1100 according to one disgruntled Prius owner."
You gotta update your info occasionally, Amigo. Google search shows aftermarket Prius catalytic converters for less than $200 and some as low as $80 at independent shops. Add the labor for the install, and you have FAR less than $1100 going on.
Gary says, "When the HSD fails it is about $11k."
What exactly *IS* the "HSD" you are talking about which would fail for $11,000? The electric motor? The circuit board? The battery? If you are assuming *ALL* of those components would fail at the same time, aren't you talking about something with a zero to almost nil chance of ever happening? And if it did, can you imagine any "Regular Joe" deciding that is a good thing to replace, rather than just buy another car?
After more than 7 years of following hybrid news, I've never heard of an "HSD" system failing out of warranty and requiring an owner to shell out $11,000 cash for a repair.
Can you point me to a link or a forum or a story which details this event as having happened? ( Sounds to me like scare tactics from the Conservatives who for some reason think guzzling gas is a Constitutional duty. )
Well I'm sure there are occasional catastrophic failures on any car. Anyone can have bad luck, which is why automakers HAVE warranties in the first place.
But statistically, most Prius owners seem to dodge any bullets.
My theory of catastrophe concerning cars is that really bad defects show up fairly early in a car's career. After 250,000 miles, it is somewhat irrelevant whether the Prius has an expensive electrical failure or the TDI has an expensive engine failure---at 250K most cars are statistically at their life's end anyway.
What exactly *IS* the "HSD" you are talking about which would fail for $11,000?
Just remembering an early complaint on the Prius here at Edmund's. Don't remember if it was warrantied or not. They were referring to the HSD system if you want to call it that. The device that the gas engine is tied into. Here is a cutaway. Dealer told the owner it was $11K. I have a very good memory for money figures.
The catalytic convert is under warranty for 10 years in PZEV states, not to mention I doubt a diesel's emissions filters are any simpler/cheaper.
Most hybrid owners don't share your concerns. In the CCB thread some guy was shopping a 10 year old used Prius with over 100k miles and it was still sellling for $12k. If at the end of the warranty you have any concerns, just wait for a gas price spike and take all that money to the bank!
10 years later, with a supposedly worn out battery, that old clunker is still worth more than half the new cost. Incredible, and this is a real-world example.
I must be doing something wrong. It looks to me like you can buy a used electric motor for a Prius for $199 with a warranty on car-part.com. You can get one with the transmission still attached for $399.
Well, I'm calling B.S. on that one. Doubting what a dealer/salesperson might say is a well-known good tactic.
They would NEVER lie !!! :shades:
If someone had ever paid that, it would be common knowledge in the Prius world and among hybrid fans as well as naysayers.
P.S.Gary, I found the post where you originally stated this $11K thing supposedly from the owner who had it covered UNDER WARRANTY but I have yet to actually find the post from the owner who said that.
Kudo's need to go to VW for offering all three like models.
It was interesting to note that like model hybrid was 61,110 msrp, TDI was 52,355 and gasser was 48,855. The hybrid was not offered in the "sport" version. The sport version TDI was MSRP of 46,875, which I would tend to favor. The cost difference would be 14,235 msrp MORE for the hybrid over the sport TDI. They did not offer a sport hybrid version.
"Supercharged hybrid" reminds me of "jumbo shrimp" or “sophisticated investor.”
Guess they are trying to tag on to that Porsche that toured the auto shows last year with electric motors at the wheels to jump the torque. Wonder if that mpg figure is an "accurate estimate"?
I am thinking that in the context of the "only" application of the hybrid technology IS the 20 % mpg advantage for the(small engine) Prius (brainwashing) I can fully understand.
Now on the face of it, what is not to like about 60% more torque AND oh by the way, it gets 1 mpg better !! ?? I am sure that IF anyone can explain why the VW/Porsche engineers chose this solution, it would be YOU. The reason why it is merged is the longer time collaboration of the platform VW Touareg/ Porsche Cayenne.
In the larger contexts, it really is all over the map. Now whether YOU or I agree or disagree with it can be a whole different discussion.
My swag is that it is aimed at a very small niche. YOU and I are probably not in it. I for sure and with probably no surprise, like the turbo diesel solution.
So for example, the torque is EXTREMELY jumped (from V6 280 hp/265# ft) with the addition of the hybrid to the V-6. As you probably can described better than I, the supercharger (more ram air than ram air?) keeps app 100 hp (not sure what it adds in torque as most figures leave that out) almost instantly on tap. for something like total (380 hp) 428 # ft. :shades:
.."Wonder if that mpg figure is an "accurate estimate"? " I would believe not any more / less so than the EPA's for the others and or all three, and, here it is
Oh yes you will---just wait....gas engine hybrids will achieve this without the added expense of a diesel engine or the redundancy of the low end torque.
A diesel hybrid might make sense for a huge SUV however since these heavyweights need all the help they can get.
The problem is cost - say a regular vehicle gets 25 mpg, a diesel or hybrid 50 mpg, and a diesel hybrid 75 mpg. For 100k mile, the diesel or hybrid saves 2000 gallons, paying the cost of either. But going from a one of them to a diesel hybrid only saves 666 gallons.
Comments
Does not say much for our intelligence. :sick:
In the case of the the Jetta TDI's (49 H epa)s verses Chevrolet Malibu(33 H epa) Eco (did not see the option in Edmunds), it took Chevy a min of 15 years and a (WW?) bankruptcy threat to the whole US economy to finally get in Jetta's "current" ballpark, albeit Jetta TDI fuel economy still 22.2% better (highway spa of 33/42. This is down from 48% better (49 H epa) Meanwhile VW joined the American power wars and exceeds the Malibu by 48%.
It is funny that Chevy does not give the US taxpayers (they say WE bailed GM out) a discount on models like these.
I do not know what I would get on above mentioned vehicles for obviously I do not drive them, nor give 175,000 miles or even 35,000 + impressions .
For the Malibu Eco, a Passat TDI is closer.
More to the point, eAssist is weak sauce mild hybrid tech that is simply uncompetitive in the hybrid arena.
..."We drove an Australian version of a diesel Cruze and its fuel economy disappointed. It was rated at 35 combined mpg in Australia, but we only averaged about 27 mpg, although that was under heavy footing during canyon driving. GM will have to push well beyond that in the U.S. if they want buyers to pass up the Cruze Eco.
On the other hand, we were impressed with the diesel Cruze's quiet engine operation and substantial low-end torque. GM hasn't announced an arrival date for the new diesel Cruze, but we'd expect it sometime late next summer. Check back for more information as it's available for the 2013 Chevrolet Cruze."...
I am actually waiting for a 175,000 miles + review of the Eco Cruze. :shades:
Projection is for the 03 TDI will be ready for the third set of tires @ 230,000-240,000 miles. (55,000 to 65,000 miles) I am tending towards the Michelins Primacy MVX4's this time. :shades: OMG the last fill was 49.5 mpg !!
These auto magazine/auto review site guys are morons. If I tried that same sort of driving in a Prius, I'd get 25mpg at best as the motor would always be revving hard. Maybe 20, even. They think that anything over 6 seconds is glacially slow, and that every car has to have every possible option including backup cameras, navigation, and what next? It's crap if it doesn't park itself and massage your rear end?
Sometimes they are just out of touch with reality.
I think it pencils out to 71 miles per US gallon.
Ford Delivers its Most Frugal Car Ever; First New Fiesta ECOnetic Technology Models Produced (Ford.com)
There are literally almost no local appreciable stocks of the ML 350 Bluetec's and the ones that ARE = pricey, as configured. The same is true with the BMW X5 35D and they are even PRICIER ! The ride on the BMW seems to be the most sports car like! There are slightly precious more local stocks with the VW Touareg TDI. The good news for all three, wider to more national searches can yield results in something one could want.
But to cut to the chase with only less than 500 break in mileage, the VW Touareg TDI (sport) is putting 31.8 mpg on the computer. There are almost always slight differences between the pen and ink calculations and the computer , but in truth not much. It is being kept under 80 mph. It is being subjected it to the up and down herky jerky break in rev patterns, within operational parameters !!! So far no issues.
I liked the idea of the GLK when they first started talking about it. But then the production model wound up too damned heavy and thirsty. Maybe this will take care of one of those problems.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It looks like Mercedes' 4-cylinder OM651 diesel will be coming to America in the redesigned GLK.
European pricing for the 250 Bluetec is 8% cheaper than the GLK 350 gasser. Europe also gets a V6 non-Bluetec diesel (priced about the same as the 350 gasser) as well as 200 (non-Bluetec) and 220 (Bluetec/non Bluetec) diesels. (priced lower than the 250)
In the European rating, the 250 Bluetec 4matic is rated at 39 mpg combined, compared to the new direct-injecting gasser's 29 mpg.
I would say judging by the increase in the diesel passenger car fleet, it is growing, AND faster than hybrids and of late, the plug in electrical, even as diesels are vilified and the other two are glorified.
Look, fin, they copied Lexus with the spindle up front, in gaudy chrome no less. That and the rear bumper. Is that supposed to look like a fake skid plate?
On the diesel ML I think it's standard, hopefully it's an option you can pass on.
The good - looks like it has a panoramic moonroof, and MPG could be best-in-class.
That's misleading ...
Prius sales were up 52% but in volume terms the gains were HUGE - about +7,000 units last month alone.
VW's diesel sales were up 54.6%, that's a higher % sure, but their TOTAL sales for the month were still just 6,513.
So in reality the Prius stretched its sales lead by another 500 or so. Their gains alone beat VW's entire sales total for diesels.
It's still no contest.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/toyota-motor-sales-reports-increase-in-f- ebruary-2012-sales-141064693.html
http://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/stocks/news/press_release.asp?docTag=2012- 03011029PR_NEWS_USPRX____DE62783&feedID=600&press_symbol=281381
I have read in passing the hybrid fleet is app @ 2%. Again there are a lot of folks that want to see the energy issue solved as one magical bullet. I have always took the view that one should break it up and proof in the pudding so to speak is in the passenger fleet percentage.
Indeed how "WE" got into this "box" was in effect limiting the choices TO ONE magic bullet... RUG. Ethanol (E85) is truly going in the wrong direction, as it burns 25% MORE for the same mpg as RUG. Another is that ethanol has been given a pass, emissions wise. It is actually way more pollutive . What has gone unsaid for years is that ethanol is way more destructive of auto assets.
Diesel is another no brainer in that IT 23/24% component to refine 46% of RUG from a barrel of oil (42 gals) . Diesel is also a portal to BIODIESEL from many other new AND ongoing (waste and otherwise) sources.
Natural Gas should also be considered as we are way beyond the middle east of natural gas.
Hybrids can be dialed in different ways. The one way that it can be marginally useful is to turn off the use of gas engines. In the Priuses' case, app 20%. So for a contrast example, a gasser hybrid VW Touareg is EPA'd @ 24 mpg H and a gasser is EPA'd @ 23 mpg. The torque is 423# ft vs 265 # ft. But as it has been noted on this thread, torque even though it is used every day is like HUH ??????
Prius stretched its lead.
Period, end of story. No spin.
Actually what matters most is profit. What is the profit on an ML 350 Bluetec compared to a Prius. There is still speculation that the only profit in a Prius is raising the CAFE numbers to protect sales of the gas guzzlers in the Toy/Lex lineup. I doubt Toyota publishes any profit loss figures for individual models.
Nor am I. So I guess that is your way of saying you take back what you said about me/ the post being misleading.
The real problem is YOU are trying to make a contest, when there are .... NONE !
Another example was the multiple posts of ZERO to 60 sec contests. If it hasn't yet sunk in, diesels generally are slower, like model. Don't like it? Pretty simple, don't buy them.
They've sold 3 million Prius already, I'm sure the costs were amortized ages ago.
The increases in TDI sales are encouraging, sure, but let's be real. They're still just a drop in the bucket.
We need more diesel choices, particularly in volume segments, and at affordable prices.
6500 TDI sales is a good sign.
20k Prius sales is humbling to diesels.
Those are absolute FACTs !!
The real issue is that the system that puts it into place is VERY opaque or dark.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
He implied hybrids were not doing well, and that's just not true at all, in fact supply of the Prius C is way short.
Oil prices are up, diesels are doing well.
Hybrids are doing well also.
If your annoying, overly competitive brother-in-law bragged about a 54% pay increase, and made $6500 a month, while you got a 52% increase and your increase alone was more than his entire salary, would you let him get away with saying he got a bigger pay increase?
Then again, you are so far ahead, you don't need to brag. LOL
The increases in TDI sales are encouraging, sure, but let's be real. They're still just a drop in the bucket.
I have to call SPIN TIME on you. They have sold 3 millions Prius WORLD WIDE over the last 10 years. How many Jetta/Golf TDIs World wide during that period. The USA has become a second level market. The point being VW is gaining on Toyota here and may have passed Toyota World wide. The real issue I see is manufacturing. China built more vehicles in 2011 than the USA and Japan combined.
No spin needed.
Prius is $24k while a Yaris is $15k. Do you honestly think $9k does not cover the already amortized cost of the HSD system? At RETAIL cost the battery pack is $2300. Figure wholesale at $1500 or so, you've got about $7500 cushion there and my guess is enormous profit margins.
No idea, how many Golf/Jetta TDIs are sold worldwide? Don't they sell 3 different diesels in each model? The USA only gets the big diesel.
Hybrids meet CARB emissions, while most diesels do not. VW is a bit of an exception here, actually, so kudos to them. Honda's and Subaru's diesels do not, so they can't amortize those costs with American sales. When they do launch them, there are CARB emissions costs to amortize. Advantage hybrids.
The point being VW is gaining on Toyota here
Actually, no, they fell 500 units further behind.
And that's only because they could not meet supply for the Prius C.
Actually we get the neutered TDI. The Golf GTD gets the hotrod TDI engine. Not sold in the USA.
When they do launch them, there are CARB emissions costs to amortize. Advantage hybrids.
I disagree. There is a lot more to the HSD than the batteries. When the HSD fails it is about $11k. The Catalytic convertor is $1100 according to one disgruntled Prius owner. The display that keeps you informed on how the car is performing is not warranted past the 3 yr mark and is quite expensive to replace. It is probably an argument that cannot be settled, as Toyota is not likely to even tell the stockholders what the margin is on the Prius. I think the other hybrids are soooo expensive I would hope they are making money on them. The HH limited with normal options has an MSRP over $50k. I would take the much nicer ML diesel for that kind of money. And be able to take it off road without worry and tow a decent sized trailer.
Fact is, the Prius has proven to be nearly bullet-proof--which has contributed to its great success. They are extremely reliable cars.
You gotta update your info occasionally, Amigo. Google search shows aftermarket Prius catalytic converters for less than $200 and some as low as $80 at independent shops. Add the labor for the install, and you have FAR less than $1100 going on.
Gary says, "When the HSD fails it is about $11k."
What exactly *IS* the "HSD" you are talking about which would fail for $11,000? The electric motor? The circuit board? The battery? If you are assuming *ALL* of those components would fail at the same time, aren't you talking about something with a zero to almost nil chance of ever happening? And if it did, can you imagine any "Regular Joe" deciding that is a good thing to replace, rather than just buy another car?
After more than 7 years of following hybrid news, I've never heard of an "HSD" system failing out of warranty and requiring an owner to shell out $11,000 cash for a repair.
Can you point me to a link or a forum or a story which details this event as having happened?
( Sounds to me like scare tactics from the Conservatives who for some reason think guzzling gas is a Constitutional duty. )
But statistically, most Prius owners seem to dodge any bullets.
My theory of catastrophe concerning cars is that really bad defects show up fairly early in a car's career. After 250,000 miles, it is somewhat irrelevant whether the Prius has an expensive electrical failure or the TDI has an expensive engine failure---at 250K most cars are statistically at their life's end anyway.
Just remembering an early complaint on the Prius here at Edmund's. Don't remember if it was warrantied or not. They were referring to the HSD system if you want to call it that. The device that the gas engine is tied into. Here is a cutaway. Dealer told the owner it was $11K. I have a very good memory for money figures.
Most hybrid owners don't share your concerns. In the CCB thread some guy was shopping a 10 year old used Prius with over 100k miles and it was still sellling for $12k. If at the end of the warranty you have any concerns, just wait for a gas price spike and take all that money to the bank!
10 years later, with a supposedly worn out battery, that old clunker is still worth more than half the new cost. Incredible, and this is a real-world example.
Good tested battery packs start at less than $500
They would NEVER lie !!! :shades:
If someone had ever paid that, it would be common knowledge in the Prius world and among hybrid fans as well as naysayers.
P.S.Gary, I found the post where you originally stated this $11K thing supposedly from the owner who had it covered UNDER WARRANTY but I have yet to actually find the post from the owner who said that.
No way would I get sucked into a car that has an ECVT that costs $11k to replace, according to one person that was luckily covered by warranty.
1. turbo V-6
2. V-6 TDI
3. V-6 supercharged hybrid.
Highway EPA mpg are 23/28/24 respectively.
Kudo's need to go to VW for offering all three like models.
It was interesting to note that like model hybrid was 61,110 msrp, TDI was 52,355 and gasser was 48,855. The hybrid was not offered in the "sport" version. The sport version TDI was MSRP of 46,875, which I would tend to favor. The cost difference would be 14,235 msrp MORE for the hybrid over the sport TDI. They did not offer a sport hybrid version.
Guess they are trying to tag on to that Porsche that toured the auto shows last year with electric motors at the wheels to jump the torque. Wonder if that mpg figure is an "accurate estimate"?
Now's where's the "sad smiley" Emotorcon?
Now on the face of it, what is not to like about 60% more torque AND oh by the way, it gets 1 mpg better !! ?? I am sure that IF anyone can explain why the VW/Porsche engineers chose this solution, it would be YOU. The reason why it is merged is the longer time collaboration of the platform VW Touareg/ Porsche Cayenne.
In the larger contexts, it really is all over the map.
My swag is that it is aimed at a very small niche. YOU and I are probably not in it. I for sure and with probably no surprise, like the turbo diesel solution.
So for example, the torque is EXTREMELY jumped (from V6 280 hp/265# ft) with the addition of the hybrid to the V-6. As you probably can described better than I, the supercharger (more ram air than ram air?) keeps app 100 hp (not sure what it adds in torque as most figures leave that out) almost instantly on tap. for something like total (380 hp) 428 # ft. :shades:
.."Wonder if that mpg figure is an "accurate estimate"? "
I would believe not any more / less so than the EPA's for the others and or all three, and, here it is
When you are on the highway or above 41 MPH, and you floor it for passing or merging purposes, the battery many times will kick in and give a boost.
My non-hybrid-driving friends got a kick out of that when they were riding with me. :shades:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/12/volkswagen-up-lite-concept/
http://www.treehugger.com/cars/peugeots-60mpg-diesel-hybrid-crossover-taking-ord- ers-now-video.html
http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/11/peugeot-launches-74-mpg-diesel-hybrid/
You can't get cars with that kind of mileage and size without combining the best of two worlds.
A diesel hybrid might make sense for a huge SUV however since these heavyweights need all the help they can get.