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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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If I can lease a $40K car for $499 a month and get 75 MPG, I'm all over that.
I have also read in passing MB might be coming up with a C platform supercharged diesel with both good fuel mileage and small 4 cylinder engine and something like 369# ft of torque. I have no other details.
The 2.2-litre CDI engine turns the ML 250 BlueTEC 4MATIC into the most economical SUV in its class. With NEDC fuel consumption of 6.0 l/100 km, the model even outperforms any hybrid model currently offered by the competition. Despite the low fuel consumption figures, this M-Class model boasts maximum torque of 500 Nm at 1600 rpm and rated output of 150 kW (204 hp) with outstanding performance: the M-Class accelerates from 0 to 100 km/h in 9.0 seconds before going on to a top speed of 210 km/h.
500 Nm = 369 Ft Lbs or torque
6L/100KM = 39 MPG US
To wit, the 2012 MB ML 350 BlueTec is H EPA'd @ 27 mpg. The VW Touareg TDI is H EPA'd @ 28 mpg. Each weighs in @ 5,000 #'s +. They are both here now.
During new tire and suspension break in, the VW T TDI seems to be on pace for 32.5-32.8 mpg for -13 gals (near as I can figure) . For proper engine break in, the revs are kept under 80% of red line, per oem owners manual recommendations. I think it might be due to those spirited romps to 80% of red line. Today for app 100 miles, the computer posted 35.5 mpg. I expect both to drop when the 500 miles tire and suspension break end has been done. There is no doubt (EPA H) 28 mpg is do able. I would be thrilled with 30 mpg.
I think also it is common knowledge that most cars do not even need a "major" tune up till 100,000 to 120,000 miles. I know that is true for the 03 Jetta TDI.
I was able to test drive three. First was the BMW X5 35 D. Second was the MB ML 350 BT. Third was the VW Touareg TDI Sport. All three were really quite well done. (for its segment, crossover SUV) Just in terms of the (core) vehicles (themselves) , choices were very very hard. Even at that, naturally each has/had it strengths and to lesser extends, less strong points.
The Touareg offered the flexibility and combination of what I wanted and probably just as importantly, what I didn't want. In the "worst" case, they still had open factory order slots for further semi customization. Basically if one went this route, it was a 30 day wait and build and ship cycle.
The real unexpected and pleasant surprise was the local dealership's sales experience. VWA also offered 0%. Yes I am happy with the look !!
For some quirky reason, that I have yet to figured out, the rounded front of the BMW X5 35 D appealed to me.
PS
The X5 also has run flats that I would refuse to have.
A lot was decided by literal hairs, little things, preferences and "best" balance for wants and needs. All three turbo diesel cross overs made up a great crop !
Yes, I would have looked to change out the run flats ASAP also, if I had decided on the BMW X5 35 D.
Between mechanical mishap, the ravages of climate, and accidents, I'd say 250K for a car is statistically optimistic.
Some humans live to be 110--statistically you and I are not going to.
Actually the average life of a car in the US is about 150,000 miles, says research from Consumer Reports.
A quick stroll through a Pick n' Part seems to verify this, if you peek at odometers that can still be read.
More to the point, the average age at which an American sells or trades in their car is about 4.5 years, so expectations of high mileage don't seem to be a concern for most of us buying new cars.
Most high mileage claims fall apart under scrutiny---either "oh, I replaced the speedometer" or the car has a "re-set at 99,999" odometer and owner claims "it been around 3 times" or the car DOES have 400K but with 3 engines and 2 transmissions.
Personally I don't know why anyone would particularly strive to push a car to 400K--that's potentially dangerous.
You don't see pilots bragging about how many hours they have on their private plane engines or air frames--if anything the high hours are a worry not a badge of honor. Motorcycle owners, Ferrari owners--they don't find high mileage attractive.
The sales/marketing appeal of diesels is economy and somewhat less complexity, which is real and HERE NOW, not some forlorn hope of mythical mileages 30 years into the future. You can't sell cars on that basis. Well I guess you can TRY--LOL!
"Yeah, these babies will go 500K, noooo problem!"
I'd be perfectly content to throw it away at 150K.
It's a nice rig, with 143 HP, 255 ft. lbs of torque and 67 mpg U.K....so about 54 mpg US--that's even better than the Golf TDI and (forgive me) nicer looking...and you can get it in 4 different body styles AND all wheel drive (!)
0-60 is about 8 seconds, so that's fine. My car is only about 0-60 in 6.9 so not a big difference really.
I trust the Germans will have tightened up on quality control on this model, however.
How many AWD turbo diesel cars are around these days?
I don't know. Would you even want or need it?
As for the diesel question, currently have a 97 Passat TDI w/275k on it running strongly, my 2nd one btw. First one I flipped and made $3k or so on it back int 2002 IIRC.
Nice that I don't have to smog it here in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia, as the start year for that is 1998!!
I'd have no problem with a new diesel purchase. I think it's amazing how they've progressed in the last 10 years or so. You'll never get me to even consider a hybrid.
Audis always made good engines, especially the bottom ends.
I don't know that "hand-built" is necessarily a good thing. Robots don't make many mistakes.
I guess my point is that over 200K your car is on borrowed time---statistically it has no future, even though a particular car might last quite a bit longer.
But obviously you take good care of your stuff--you can't get 275K out of a car without being reasonably diligent. You've seen how some people trash a car in under 100K miles.
If your engine blew up with 50,000 miles on it, we'd scream LEMON! But if you came to us lamenting that it blew up at 275K, we'd say "oh c'mon, what did you expect? The car's done its job!"
Also I noticed that the EPA mileage figures for the E350 bluetec are virtually identical to the S350 bluetec. If I want to eat macaroni 5x a week I can afford the former...if sleep in the latter maybe I can pay for it :shades:
Part of engineering is to make sure one part of the car doesn't last ten times longer than the rest of it.
Once engineers learned, for instance, that differentials in cars remained perfectly usable long after the vehicle itself was junked, they started making differentials lighter and smaller. Check it out.
Well let's say the engineers did that AFTER they had a meeting with the bean counters.
No automaker would be crazy enough to make an engine last 500,000 miles---they *could* pretty much guarantee that (as they do already with Greyhound buses) but they won't do it.
Yes, I think they are the same engine AND 7 speed transmission, albeit adapted to a high end sedan and crossover SUV applications. I am guessing the gearing, extra weight and higher CG on the crossover suv is responsible for the - 4 mpg H EPA rating 21/31 vs 20/27 mpg. I did like the way the ML 350 diesel test drove. The 7 speed hybrid CVT seemed to be effortless and seamless, I would hope over the longer term, durable and reliable. 455# ft can be intoxicating.
Even after 175,000 miles PLUS, I STILL think it is pretty amazing to run 25,000 to 30,000 miles OCI's !! It is a high quality oil, Mobil One 5w40 TDT, aka Delvac One 5w40. It will be due a "major tune" timing belt and water pump change in 25,000 to 35,000 miles. Here is hoping to 3 more major tunes !!
Oh yes I would agree with you that the bean counters are the ruling elite in most to all auto companies. So when you are able to find a line, M/Y or even OEM , go with em !!
The second set of tires still looks on pace to do 120,000 miles. So far it has app 63,000 miles. So only 57,300 miles to go.
EPA rating on the S bluetec is 31, which is remarkable for such a boat - I bet a competent driver could get a few more mpg. I'd take it over a non-tuned gasser easy - just too bad the nice one I saw on a dealer site was $106K :shades:
Indeed a beautiful car. :shades:
The engine-block can be traced to the original watercooled gasoline Volkswagens which replaced the aircooled beetles. It was INTENDED to be a diesel engine to take VW into the future. (dont forget that Dodge used this engine-block in the Omni)
The VW pumpe-duse engine (separate cam-driven fuelpumps for each cylinder) replaced the old TDI. (and proved to not last nearly as long due to the 4 extra cams on the shaft for the fuelpumps)
I intend to keep my 2003 TDI Jetta several years longer.... perhaps the announced Chevy or Mazda diesels will sway me away from it.
While most folks would discount or disregard this, this is the real utility of the VW which has always been an R/R parts car.
As Shiftright would probably agree, parts need replacing. So yes, I intend to R/R bearings, shocks, struts, springs, tires, brake rotors, pads, etc. But I think all would agree this is OTHER than diesel related (NORMAL) stuff.
Yet the "system" would have you believe that that percentage of TDI engines would single handedly cause environmental armageddon !!!!!!
The broader context is that even after 30 years, the diesel passenger fleet is a rambuncious 5% of the total passenger vehicle fleet. Most remain "light trucks". As most folks know those are (HEAVY) light trucks. To cite an example that everyone is probably aware of the Ford F150 which is probably the poster girl for wild environmental excesses, is a pygmy. The Ford F-250 and F-350 are the ones that are outfitted with "light" diesel engines.
While many of us here would agree, I think the "general motoring public" would not. Often the compelling reason for an owner to initially off-load their car (they being the original owner) is because it stars to "nickel and dime" them by way of normal maintenance items that require R&R: CV boots (often involving a half-shaft replacement), wheel bearings, suspension components such ball joints, tie rod ends, etc. And, often these things are sticker-shock related due to owners waiting until one or more symptoms reaches a state of urgency, then the shop comes back with an estimate on all of the above.
So, the owner either sells it outright, or perhaps fixes these things, drives another year, and then sells (the seed of "I need a new car" is already planted). The next owner ends up inheriting known problems, views the car as an old junker, treats it accordingly, and before much longer (and perhaps with another one or two ownership changes) neglect on the core components results in an engine failure or symptom of imminent failure with a mere 150,000-200,000 on the ticker.
It wasn't the quality of the engine that drove the life cycle, but the perception of inconvenience associated with normal maintenance of items other than the engine - items that are generally low maintenance, so the owner just assumes they should last forever. When they don't, well, something must be wrong with the car. :sick:
Anyway the argument is rather specious---any car ever made, even a Yugo, a Vega---you name it--- can go 1,000,000 miles. It really depends how determined you and your checkbook are to achieving that.
But we'll probably all be dead before our cars could possibly reach 500K anyway. I know I probably won't make it :P
I really don't want to see a nice car like a TDI turn into some New Age longevity movement.
You know, it gets great MPG, it's German built, it's fun to drive---that's plenty of good hype right there....
1. Diesels are a different animal alltogether vis a vis gasoline engines. Fewer parts; no ignition system; better efficiency in the cycle. But putting that aside, I've seen my share of over 200k units, Domestic, Euro, Asian more in the last 20 years than ever before. My 91 SHO had 251k on it when sold, and it was running perfectly. Though the legendary status of that Yamaha engine is well known.
2. Robots: Tell that to Vega owners, if there are any of them left around!!! LOL. Just joking! I'm sure the robots are much better designed and made now.
As an aside, I do believe old habits are hard to break. To wit things like the thinking behind, "My car is approaching 100k, I've gotta think about getting rid of it!"
But that's okay with me. I never purchase cars new. Better for me to get a screaming deal in such short-sighted cases.
Just sayin'
(Damn Germans...)!!!!!
The one documented story I've read on a 1m mile diesel Benz had, guess what, the engine rebuilt every 250k.
Modern diesels are just as complicated as modern gas engines, with high pressure injection, turbos, intercoolers, and for all but the very smallest, more complicated emissions controls, with required urea injection.
The myth of diesel reliability was built on semi trucks, which share basically nothing with automotive diesels.
My anecdotal evidence - my dad's new 84 Volvo diesel engine died at a little over 5,000 miles and four or five months of use. Of course, the warranty replacement engine was still going strong at over 170K when he got rid of the car. Everything else on the car was worn out at that point.
Amidst rising gas prices, diesel sales increased to 1,601, up 55.6% over the same period last year (1,029) and up 65.4% for the year.
According to Edmunds hybrids are faltering, while diesels are gaining market share.
Car sales are up again, but despite rising gas prices, few consumers are buying hybrids. Instead, they’re choosing less fuel-efficient – and less costly — subcompacts and mid-size vehicles.
March sales rose 22% from the previous month and 13% from a year ago to an annualized rate of 14.3 million vehicles, according to data released today by Edmunds.com.
Those were March sales btw.
I don't know that I could state with any real assurance that modern diesels are any less complex--I wonder if that would bear up to close scrutiny?
Their main difference is that the blocks have to be stronger, especially in web strength and in how securely you bolt the head down.
But electronics, fuel delivery, injection, power accessories--it's all pretty complicated stuff under there.
Any modern gasoline engine should be able to go toe to toe with a diesel for longevity. I don't think you could plot any longevity advantage in the "real world" (the odometer readings). I suspect it is more an urban myth than anything else, which perhaps comes from the iconic nature of the word "diesel", when people think of big rigs like Peterbilts, with engines the size of a small house, or locomotives or caterpillar D9s.
These big diesels are so symbolic of strength and power that it rubs off on their little siblings.
So for example, when it comes to turbo diesel big rigs vs gasser big rigs, there are not many gasser big rigs, percentage and volume wise to even come close.
On topic to TDI passenger cars, since many folks have gotten (easily) 250,000 miles on gassers, I do not see it as much of a feat for this 2003 Jetta TDI to go three major tunes or 300,000 miles. I just see it as a reasonable expectation. Hopefully, I will pay more attention, as it hits 400,000 to 500,000 miles and hopefully above.
300K on any car is mighty mighty rare, so when you hit that many miles, (and I think you will, given your attention to the car) you will be in a pretty exclusive club I think.
I did find quite a few Honda Civics over 250K (about a dozen) though, but only one over 300K--of course, that's not quite fair, since there are a LOT more Civics than TDI's on the road.
I just don't think any car has a predictable mileage---too many variables.