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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited March 2012
    The irony is not lost on me. YOU have a 48 horser and seem to be against it. I do not (well the diesel is a 90 hp) and think there is room for it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Had, past tense. I was a poor college student. :shades:

    I'm not against small, efficient cars, in fact I am very much PRO.

    What I'm saying is it would fail in the American market.

    That's different.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited March 2012
    Given the failure of the Metro, I can understand your point of view.

    But then I think it is apparent to more and more people that @ least the current administrations policy has been every increasing fuel prices. So even if the oppressed ones get their wishes, BHO reelection and temporary lower fuel prices, the prices will once again march higher, even as BHO is working to ask the Saudi's to UP production to push down prices because higher fuel prices is an election year issue.

    It has always been apparent that US drivers like higher rather than lower HP.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited March 2012
    I can just speak from my experience when I merge onto a highway my old car, which is maybe an 11 second car on the best days - I usually end up wanting to pit maneuver the slowpokes in front of me - I can't see a few more seconds being a crisis in this 75mpg car. But if you are in rural GA merging onto a road where there is space and traffic is flowing at 75+...maybe not so fun.

    0-30 or 0-40 times might be just as relevant, too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I've driven a diesel 130mph, I know they can do it :shades: ...still averaged over 30mpg on that trip, too, with lots of 100mph+ driving.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In a day and age when my minivan can reach highway speeds in half the time...I dunno.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/21/production-2013-chevrolet-trailblazer-debuts-- no-plans-for-u-s/

    But won't be sold here.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Another problem would be price - the good mpg Polo lists for about 15,000 GBP, that's about $24,000. I guess there's lots of tax in that, but what would it cost in the US?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    But how often do you reach those speeds in that time? For the skinflint hypermiler, they might not be so concerned with potential.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited March 2012
    The math says 30 mpg is good !! It also indicates that 48-50 mpg is better ( 60% -67%), albeit a tad slower.

    Much over 100 mph in the states, most times they are looking to throw you in jail.

    Some places on the autobahn, @ 130 mph, you better be looking in the RV mirror. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited March 2012
    It can be hard to be concerned with "potential" during commuting, when you can do 28/29 miles in anywhere from 45 min to 1.5 hours. (38 mph to 18 mph). It can be further true when 78%+ PLUS of the mileage is that kind of commuting.

    But the funny part is the 75 hp/133 # ft of torque VW Polo diesel has 18# ft of torque MORE than the 04 Civic.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    14 seconds? I'd be jumping in my seat, pounding on the dashboard, yelling "come ON!!!" while mashing my foot through the floor boards as I nervously glance in the rear view mirror..... :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Another problem would be price - the good mpg Polo lists for about 15,000 GBP, that's about $24,000. I guess there's lots of tax in that, but what would it cost in the US?

    I think the difference is mostly tax. The Prius is about $27k with leather in the UK.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I see you have never experienced merging in suburban Seattle. It'll take you 14 seconds to get to 40 with the typical Lexus SUV driver in front of you...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I've also rented a 4cyl diesel E-class that was fintail slow, and didn't like going much more than 100mph, but it averaged around 43mpg over the rental - so the tradeoff was worth it.

    I'm not a LLCer, I can take the extra work of driving in the real world - a dream vacation for me is simply getting the keys to a nice car and spending a couple weeks driving around Germany :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    yeah but not all the time....I'm a survivor of a mercedes 300D---I know what 14 seconds is like----marginally dangerous if you don't plan ahead.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    To my way of thinking, those are the diesels that should be let into the country. (43 mpg)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    And that's 43 fast mpg, out of an automatic comfortable full sized car. At our loafing interstate speeds, probably add 10% I bet.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I drove the fintail as my only car for a number of years, never seemed to be a problem to me - of course this was mostly in the 90s, when cars were slower. I think most of the people who would be buying a weirdo little slow 70mpg car would be the ones with the wherewithal to actually plan and think ahead.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited March 2012
    Americans won't buy a car that slow, if that's the one you're referring to. That's even slower than another flop, the Smart ForTwo. That's 4 seconds slower than a Fiat 500.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I am referring to a W212 E200 CDi, I think the official number is something like 10.9 or 10.5. Marginally faster than the fintail (but not as revvy). I think a car that speed would sell, but maybe not as a slow non-luxurious MB.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ten-ish is okay. You have to get used to being whipped at stop lights by a Prius or Ford Fiesta, but otherwise, that's acceptable acceleration. I could live with that.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited March 2012
    a dream vacation for me is simply getting the keys to a nice car and spending a couple weeks driving around Germany

    It may surprise you but that would also be a pleasure for me. I would want to buy for European Delivery, then spend more like a month touring Germany, Switzerland, maybe Spain and Portugal and a little bit of Italy. One trip just to say I have been to Europe. Oh, and Croatia. :shades:

    It has to be a diesel SUV/CUV
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The way to get over all of this is to have a large gas tank in it and get 1000 miles.

    The average person in the U.S. drives about 12,000 miles a year. 1000 miles on a tank would mean filling the car once a month. Even if it cost $100 to fill it would be $100 a month. Easy to figure out and remember, and a huge selling point.

    Delivery companies, couriers, and many other businesses would welcome the ability to cut fuel costs in half or more. 14 seconds is nothing when you're doing all city driving delivering pizzas and the like.

    But it has to be 1000 miles or more combined or it's not going to be "the car you fill up once a month". :P
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    - My brother had a 1,000 mile range on his '79 Rabbit diesel. The previous owner had placed a second tank in the spare tire well that gravity fed the standard tank (no switching between tanks - just one large tank). Total capacity was getting close to 20 gallons. Didn't have to make many trips to the gas station.

    I read the owners manual on that car and it said that if you ever get less than 40 mpg to have the car taken to the dealer as something is seriously wrong.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited March 2012
    Yes, that has been on my "bucket" list for a very long time.

    Early on in the career, (26/27 years old) I had the chance to live for 3/4 years in Germany/England. The chances were good for another 3/4 year follow on. The job however was wedded to an almost instant, on call, knee jerk travel by Lear Jet or Helicopter, which would not have been conducive to more leisurely and normal travel. I am sure I could have made do with catch as catch can. At that time, the cats meow would have been a maxed out VW Camper. Now I rather like the idea of the MB CDI Sprinter Camper. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That's why my E55 AMG has a nice 500 mile range - big tank. The Germans know how to do this.

    The long range and less stops would be huge selling points. Also right about the city driving, which is what most of these small cars would be bought for, not highway cruising.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    When I have rented cars there, I have always noted that I prefer diesel - only had my wish not granted once. A combination of nice scenery and less oblivious motorists puts some of the joy back in driving. Not cheap, but you get what you pay for.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So you are saying the diesels cost more to rent? Or is driving in Germany (logistics) is more costly than driving in the US?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Nope, no extra charge, but fleets tend to be a mix - so you sometimes have to take what you can get.

    When gasoline costs 100%+ more there, even though diesel is a good 20% cheaper, driving is more expensive. You wince when you have that 100 Euro gas stop, and you weren't even on empty.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited March 2012
    yeah but on many cars getting a 1000 mile range would require you to carry 300 lbs of fuel around with you. That's like driving around with 3 people all day long. On a small car like a Golf TDI, you're going to notice that.

    On the other hand, one thing I don't like about my MINI is the 12 gallon gas tank. Of course, as I get older, stopping at gas stations more often has certain advantages :P
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Is diesel still cheaper than gas over there? I thought they were phasing out the tax breaks for diesel.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2012
    good mpg Polo lists for about 15,000 GBP, that's about $24,000

    I was going to ask - how does it compare in price to the Golf TDI? One equipped like ours?

    About $25k with freight for a US Golf TDI, so a Polo TDI wouldn't be too much less than that here, maybe $22k.

    The Prius C starts at $19k so it would likely enjoy a lower entry price, though similarly equipped I bet it would be close.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For the skinflint hypermiler

    Is that the buyer VW wants to go after, though?

    It would be a gamble, I think.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ten-ish is okay

    I'm with you, shifty. Even 11 is reasonable, though you really have to be alert.

    It's the 13-14ers that I worry about. Not only would you be tailgated, but also the press would crucify it. 0-60? Yes. Eventually. It would be a punch line.

    Let's remember a V6 Camry is a sub-6 second car nowadays.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    yeah but on many cars getting a 1000 mile range would require you to carry 300 lbs of fuel around with you. That's like driving around with 3 people all day long. On a small car like a Golf TDI, you're going to notice that.

    Let's say you can get a super-mini like a VW Polo in.(which was what the discussion originally mentioned). O get 1000 miles on a tank, you need:
    85.6 mpg combined. Convert from U.K. gallons to U.S. gallons: 85.6 x 0.832674 = ~71mpg. 1000/71 = 14.1 gallons. Let's say a 16 gallon tank and a 15 gallon typical fill/usable amount. This gives us a standard industry tank size as well as some overage for heavy-footed U.S. drivers.

    15 gallons of diesel weighs 7.15 x15 = 107.25 lbs. Not 300lbs like you say in your reply. For a small car like this, this would add a negligible amount of weight over the stock 12 gallon tank. A bit under 25lbs difference, in fact. Even if you ran it dry and overfilled it to 16 gallons, you'd be looking at ~29 lbs more weight.

    That's just not a factor. But an extra 250 miles range would be a marketing bonanza for them. Businesses looking to simplify their billing and expenses would jump on the opportunity as well. Doubly so since they can write off the car as an expense.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think the sovereignty-stealing EU was trying to impose some idiotic rule to tax fuel differently to favor modern biofuels, but as far as I know it didn't get off the ground.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Well let's be real, other than commercial buyers, who else is going to want a tiny car that is slow and gets huge mileage? There are enough cheapo drivers out there to sell the thing, I doubt VW would expect 300K sales a year or anything.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    The British price includes high taxes. Maybe VW would have to subsidize the thing like Toyota has subsidized the Prius, too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    But how many Camry are V6, and how many actually ever see anything near that capability? I think in a lot of areas, highway merging is slower than people think.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    What I read about was the removal of the lower tax rate on diesel to tax it the same as gas on a CO2 emissions basis, so the diesel tax would be slightly higher per liter/gallon/whatever. They're expecting a drop in diesel sales as a result.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Where'd you get the 85.6 mpg combined? The best combined number I found on the VW web site was 3.5 l/100 km, which is about 67 mpg. Still good. Maybe you were looking at miles per imperial gallon.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That could be right, don't remember the details...doesn't sound like a move that will make people happy, I wonder who is looking to win.

    Looks like a German isn't impressed...maybe this will finally get some riots to burn some buildings in Brussels...

    And here, we apparently tax diesel more :confuse:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Yep, US federal taxes are about $.24/gallon diesel, $.18/gallon for gas. Maybe to cover the bigger impact on road repair from trucks?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What's common now, and I absolutely *hate*, is shrinking the size of the gas tank to obtain better EPA numbers. The Cruze Eco, for instance, has a smaller gas tank than the regular Cruze.

    Totally stupid. Range ends up being the same.

    For a while the F150 EcoBoost also had a smaller tank than V8 models, but I think Ford got enough feedback that they up-sized the fuel tank IIRC.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure it would cost a little less here, minus the taxes, but no doubt VW would pad pricing with equipment you may or may not want.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/22/mercedes-benz-glk-gets-facelift-diesel-option- -ahead-of-new-york/

    I wonder what the price differential will be?

    It finally gets the DI V6, too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Truck damage gets repaired? :shades: :sick:

    I wonder what states do, too. Maybe a nice cash cow from a captive audience, truckers don't have much choice.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,686
    edited March 2012
    Of course, as I get older, stopping at gas stations more often has certain advantages

    Hahahaha; age has nothing to do with that for me! Back in '99 when I drove my '69 Chevy pickup on our 11,000-mile saga, I had to stop for fuel every 200-250 miles (20-gal tank at an average of 11 mpg). I drove it consistently at 65 mph, so we were stopping every 3 hours or so for fuel. I found my truck was ready for a fill just about the same time I was ready for an empty.

    For me, longer range doesn't mean fewer stops. :blush:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I learned where ALL the clean bath room stops were when the wifey was pregnant. Baby takes all the space so their bladder capacity becomes pathetic.
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