What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    Total is about 25 trade-ins for me, including 4 VW TDIs, in 3 states so far. In all 4 cases, the non-VW dealer salivated over giving blue-book value for the TDI with ~100k miles, and a cursory inspection. (I always negotiate the best new-car price, hopefully closer to invoice than MSRP, before revealing the trade-in.)

    I've never heard of any case where someone had trouble getting bluebook trade-in value on their old TDI, but I am ready to be educated about that - what do ya know for actual cases!!?!

    Also, mechanics do NOT check trade-ins with 75k or 100k in detail, not in this area, because they know the car will be going to a wholesaler.
    It is a *very* superficial check from what I've seen. Start engine, try a couple gears and dashboard levers. 4 minutes. No inspection on a lift.

    I don't recommend selling a used vehicle privately, for multiple reasons including personal safety & scam-ability! anecdote: I've only done it once (1985), and it went great even though the buyer&friends spoke zero words of english. I heard them massively BURN the tires on the firebird test drive, and they were super happy/chattering/excited when they returned. :)

    Another reason to avoid private-sale is in private-sale-lemon-law state like MA where the seller remains responsible for all major repairs for 3 months *after* the sale, or something like that. (Seller pays for the new transmission, or takes the car back with broken-transmission and refunds all the $.) maybe MA is the only state with that law! maybe the law has expired even in MA.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    I've assumed the neighbor's sky-blue new-new-beetle is a gasser - was not aware the TDIs were out yet ! She got it about a month ago and seems to hide it in the garage. Her other vehicle is an Audi Q7 - I think she still has that vehicle too. Her husband drives an A6.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's an expensive fleet! Probably $150k worth of car in that driveway.

    We also have 3 cars but our total is less than half that.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2012
    Here's a good one for you (not to mention it proves your point):

    Craigslist Yooper

    There's one other diesel passenger car I see in all the UP right now in the ads, an '80 MB 300CD. Everything else is a truck.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    I have just returned my gasser E350 rental, averaged nearly 30mpg overall - lots of highway driving, but not all. I wonder what real world bluetec results would be, as that number is way above EPA "estimates".
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2012
    So it begs the question, why didn't you rent a E350 ...BlueTec? ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    I asked if they had any plans to offer diesel rentals...the agent looked at me like I was speaking in tongues.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Was it a lot more expensive renting the E than say a CamCord? I cannot recall seeing a MB rental car. Some exotics like Porsche and Ferrari. I would imagine the diesels sell too well to sell to rental agencies. I am surprised you did not rent a Prius. :blush:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    It was more expensive, but not grossly so - cheaper than a "luxury" through the big name brands. I think a Prius would have been more. You can rent MB in the US through Hertz mostly, but I think the National/Enterprise group has a few in the fleet, and you can get BMW through Avis and National/Enterprise. I am pretty much certain all are gas models. But in Europe of course, diesel rentals are common.

    You are probably right about diesel demand being great enough to prevent fleet sales here.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think I've ever seen a rental diesel or hybrid. I guess they go for such mainstream choices, generally.

    Buddy of mine rented a Jag for his wedding, which was nice.

    I bet 90% of rentals are sedans and minivans. Then you have the occasional luxury car or convertible. Toss in a rare sports car while you're at it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There is a rental agency in Hawaii the rents diesels running on B100. I have also seen Prius for rent.

    http://www.bio-beetle.com/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2012
    Actually, my bad.

    I was thinking you were renting a car on the European continent. In line with that, I was thinking that 30 mpg in that car at autobahn speeds,... WOW !! And here I was thinking you were floating alone @ 120 mpg +. :blush:

    Back to reality dreaming. I was reading that one of the US car rental majors will be renting VW Jetta TDI's at a date uncertain.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    When I rent a car, I'm usually on vacation, and traffic is light to non-existent. So for me, I wouldn't be looking for fuel efficiency. Luggage space is more like it. :D

    The best application for hybrids would likely be a car sharing service, like ZipCar. Those tend to be in congested cities where a hybrid would make sense.

    Diesel rentals would make a lot of sense for road trips if you're leaving town. A lot of city-dwellers here at work don't own cars, but rent then when they do stuff like that. A guy at work just drove all the way to West Virginia with visitors in a rental.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    In Germany, I did have an overall mpg of 30+ in a F01 730d - which included many 120+ mph runs, and a 40+ mpg stint in an E200 CDi (pre bluetec) with some fast driving as well.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2012
    You (and I) and obviously a lot of folks have known for a long time that both higher speeds and good to great mpg has been the reality and for a long time, in Europe. Because some of the US safety agencies have had to pander to both the wrong headed notion and the resulting policies of "speed kills", etc.: we get things like a national speed limit of 55 mph, and posting 12 to 15 mpg.

    Now, I have absolutely NOTHING against folks choosing to GO 55 mph (even less as allowed by law), or for that matter getting 12 to 15 mpg. Trucking (commercial and otherwise) is indeed both required to go those speeds AND have been monitored for literally decades (in Europe). So we know beyond a shadow of a doubt, they ( trucking, slower moving vehicles) can and do co exist with (much) higher passenger car speeds. Indeed it has co- existed here also, albeit not so overtly monitored, and lower speed differentials.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    "Speed kills" is about as correct as "the earth is flat" - and yes, reasonable economy can co-exist with higher speeds. Sadly, our dumbed down drivers training combined with the attitude about driving had by most sheeple won't support any progress on either front.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    At least in terms of energy content:

    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/

    Get ready for another drop in real-world fuel economy if this becomes widespread.

    Older cars could be screwed. Does the fintail require lead additives, or what?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2012
    Just another run of the mill example indicating that 50 mpg is not a priority. I think anymore folks don't know what it means to run RUG/PUG "straight". I have read in passing there are a minimum of 32 "blends of RUG/PUG, AKA boutique/designer. Another is very soon the cars will have to be specified to run higher than 10% ethanol as even that blend has deleterious effects on engine durability and reliability. One translation is not only more fuel consumption AND resultant more dollars, but higher dollars for parts/subsystems designed to resist the ethanol effects. You can rest assured that at some future date they will find that ethanol will ALSO need to be emissions controlled and will need another level of emissions equipment. Don't forget that particulate equipment has already been approved for gassers. If it is anything like diesels, we are talking 1,000 to 3,000 more per car: COST. Who knows what prices that will translate to.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    Nope, old MBs have hardened valve seats, unleaded fuel is fine - although the owners manual wants 98 octane - which can only be found at airports, I think.

    I wonder if E15 premium is closer to normal gasoline regular in terms of efficiency.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Actually, "speed kills" is about as true as the sun burns every day.

    Damaging forces applied to the human body are worsened by increased speed during car accidents. The faster you are going, the more damage "stopping" will do to you, the more damage will occur in roll-overs, the more damage will occur when you are ejected.

    Speeding itself does not kill.....it's when you CRASH WHEN SPEEDING that the problems occur.

    It's physics, not politics.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Member Posts: 2,217
    My parents had MB while I was growing up, I remember our 72 220 (gas) 4 spd manual got less MPG running at the new speed limit of 55 then it did at 65 and 70. The European cars were meant to be driven at a higher speed then the american cars. BTW, I wish I still had that MB, it was a great car, very solid and handled well too.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I have not been around airports as either a profession nor hobby, but I remember small craft are not emissions controlled and LEADED fuel is still sold.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Around here the "old MB" crowd almost approaches cult status.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Gearing, most likely.

    Worst part is ethanol production is not efficient here. They can't make it cost effective like they can in Brazil, from sugar cane.

    Plus ethanol isn't well suited to extreme cold. I remember ethanol-powered cars in Brazil not starting on cold mornings. By cold I mean 65 degrees F. :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    The inability to handle speed is what kills. The rest is for a different thread ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    A car like that couldn't get close to 100mph, but it could cruise at 75-80 for hours on end without breaking a sweat - it would just take some time to get there.

    5K should be able to find a very nice car like that, should you ever be tempted. Insane restoration costs and stodgy styling keep them affordable.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    Might be the savior for some old cars, if one can get around whatever rules might stop it. Luckily my car does OK on what passes for premium these days.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2012
    This is purely personal, but I have found older MB's (several, and different M's and y's that I have driven or ridden in, even when new) fatiguing as compared to even the VW Jetta TDI @ going on a decade old.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Is that why F1 racers and NASCAR drivers never have wrecks? Because they "know how to handle speed?" ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2012
    Might be a slightly different reason, but something also is working in having accidents at under 5 mph. :sick:

    I think it is also fair to say that most of us have probably had far more and probably there are more severe consequences at the 45 mph and under accident scenarios.

    Speed too fast for conditions (inappropriate) is acknowledge to be the "cause" in 20%. That is the other hand clapping saying accidents @ speeds perfectly legal is @ 80%.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    That's an odd comparison.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    10% ethanol was a good reason to buy a diesel vehicle. 15% an even better reason. As you pointed out, Corn ethanol is a negative process. It is PURELY politics. I wonder where it is at in the AG bill being discussed in the Senate. With some of the subsidies gone it is a real money loser. You have to wonder how many distributors only add the mandated 2.9% to save money. It may be a cheaper way to up the octane rating. I think they dropped the 54 cent tariff on a gallon of Cane Ethanol from Brazil. Probably part of one of the trade agreements being done in secret.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2012
    "Every few years, the EPA has reduced the maximum amount of allowed emissions. From 1998 until 2004, the EPA standard for oxides of nitrogen was 4 grams of emissions per brake-horsepower-hour and the EPA's hydrocarbon standard was 1.3 g/bhp-hr. After 2004, the combined standard for oxides of nitrogen and hydrocarbons was reduced to 2.4 g/bhp-hr. Then they were reduced again in 2007, and again in 2010.

    As of the 2010 model year, the maximum level allowed by the EPA is 0.20 g/bhp-hr for oxides of nitrogen -- an astonishing 95% reduction since 2004. Even more astonishing is the way that many manufacturers were able to meet the tougher standard, by essentially turning air pollution into humid air."

    Navistar no longer makes Power Stoke engines for Ford and that's probably a good thing for Ford. Navistar dropped the ball; can't met air quality regs and warranty costs are high.

    Navistar's Warranty Woes (Warranty Week)

    Naturally, "It all started in California."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There main thing is School bus chassis and running gear. With schools cutting back they may be in more trouble. I wonder what Icahn sees in them? May be the pieces are worth more than the whole in a chapter 7 bankruptcy. How many more UAW workers will hit the bricks?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, that's why Obama visited. Funny, when I was a kid Brazilian politicians came to the US asking for help....

    It is dumb politics, food got expensive. It has all sorts of adverse side effects. Cheap octane so the oil companies are ok with it, plus consumers use more!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Is it the Cane Ethanol or the oil we are getting from Brazil that seems to keep them on an even keel?

    Brazil Discovers How To Increase Employment With Near-Zero Economic Growth

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2012/06/21/brazil-discovers-how-to-increas- e-employment-with-near-zero-economic-growth/
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    Creative accounting. Virtually every region calculates employment data with different measures.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If there are only 1.4 million unemployed I will eat my shorts.

    Problem is there are so many jobs off the books you could only guess anyway.

    Still, they have more oil and ethanol than they know what to do with. Sprinkle in cheap labor and voila.

    If you ever get a chance to live there one cool thing is they get European cars, not American ones. You also learn British English in school (or French). To get in to college you must be bilingual, even.

    Americans are very ego-centric so I've had to adjust quite a bit.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2012
    I would not even go there. ;) Or cheer up, it is FAR worse than you think!! :lemon:

    I think it is fair to say there is @ least one standard deviation (12.5%) of folks who are "out of work." So I think if one does the calculations against a known (relatively) quantity, say US population of 307 M folks; unemployment is really 38.375 M folks, unfortunately as a minimum.

    The issue which is better kept than states secrets are what are those "REAL" numbers? How many real "jobs" ? The "official" unemployment records are truly rubber rulers. We don't know how many "jobs" that yield the official percentages. It is commonly known a lot of folks still "unemployed" who drop off the grid are no longer officially counted.

    So in this age of massive change, (more on topic) diesel cars really make sense. ULSD is @ par to cheaper per gal despite massively more taxation (in CA 15.2% more, aka .69 cents vs 79.5 cents) than RUG or PUG. When you couple that with way better fuel mileage, cheaper cost per mile driven can be A result. In the case of a 09 TDI/2.5 gasser (39.7/25.7 mpg real world) the gasser is 56% more expensive, per mile driven: FUEL to operate.

    IF taxation were the same (.69 cents vs .69 cents, instead of 79.5) RUG would be 60% more to operate.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    edited June 2012
    You know the three types of lies, one of them is statistics ;) The US lies at least as much as anyone else about those numbers, too.

    I have an old close friend who has spent much time in Brazil and Colombia. He tells me of driving his friend's Twingo there. Also tells me of the most brutal and corrupt law enforcement he's ever seen, and generally stupefying socio-economic gaps in general. No place is perfect, everything has something looming over them like a sword on a string.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you drive there you should always have bribe money handy. No witnesses either.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,628
    Probably good to invest in a dash cam. Heck, I am considering it here.

    I asked my friend about the car scene there, he says very few highline cars around - makes you a target. Not cool.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited June 2012
    You'd be fine in a big city like Sao Paulo...but that's not a good place to drive. Way too congested.

    In a poor town you'd be mobbed by panhandlers. :(

    The economy has done well lately but few places have a bigger gap between the haves and have nots.

    The 2nd biggest Ferrari dealer in the world is in Brazil.

    President Collor was corrupt as anyone (we impeached him and he actually had to leave office) but it was an interesting term because he opened up imports, so you saw tons of exotics rolling in. Especially the used market, due to taxing.

    Quick, back on topic....uh....

    Diesel costs half the price of RUG in Brazil. But it's not the ULS variety.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited June 2012
    It would be way cool if ULSD got back to the 03 days, when I bought my first diesel $1.85 to $1.90 per gal. LSD :shades:

    Due to the endless droning on about elections 2 years before say the 4 year US presidential term is up (6 years), most everyone now understands higher fuel prices are the government's defacto method of taxation. Again it goes beyond "a tax you want to pay" as taxes on diesel affect the whole inner state commerce system as one of our hosts has said from time to time, i.e.., the very food that keeps one alive.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I dunno, if fuel taxes really ended up where they are supposed to there would be fewer potholes on my commute. :sick:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not necessarily. CA has about the highest gas tax, and our roads are abysmal. From my minimal research, less than 15% of our gas tax ends up maintaining roads and bridges. And diesel taxes are even higher.

    I maintain my driveway better than Caltrans maintains the state highway I use every time I leave my home. Then I get competitive bids and don't have all those over paid people holding a shovel upright.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Oh, the $$$ is there, it just doesn't end up where it's supposed to...
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited June 2012
    to me the regen-DPF nonsense for diesel, and the E10/E15 nonsense for gasoline, are reasons to avoid both diesel & gas as much as possible, and buy an electric car. For me, Volt would be the best electric-car. (unlimited range is important to me, and quick/safe refueling.)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    It is well known that is it is the law that monies earmarked for roads ARE supposed to be for ROADS. NOT ! That has also been true for decades. So for example, CA directly deposits the so called earmarked "ROAD" monies into its general fund.
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