I got a sneaking suspicion that Jeep diesel is the older version of MB diesel. MB went to a new design for 2012. It is more efficient and cleaner. I like the looks of the GC. Not sure if I trust the Italian made diesel engine. After all the hassles with the Liberty diesel. Though it was not the engine design. It was the kludged up emissions system.
If someone built a midsized CUV plugin hybrid, I would consider it. Our electric company has lowered the over night rates for charging EVs to where they are practical. With a 30 mile EV range I could do any of my normal runs to town. And save money. Still stuck with nasty ethanol laced gas.
No way I would spend big bucks for a vehicle like that. Only for people with more money than you know what. I will stick with a full size diesel SUV for my main road vehicle.
This diesel should satisfy most green light racers:
The SQ5 will be powered by the all-new V-6 turbo-diesel engine boasting two turbochargers which Audi has been working on for various models in the lineup. This engine produces a total of 313 hp and 479.42 lb-ft of torque between 1,450 and 2,800 rpm. This power is enough to sprint the SUV from 0 to 60 mph in just 5.1 seconds and up to a top speed of 155 mph, but also deliver a fuel economy of 32.67 US mpg.
While I am certainly no authority on the topic, from what I have read the Audi SQ5 will NOT hit the American markets in 2013. The 2013 V6 3.0 L TDI which is the common engine for the new Porsche Cayenne TDI and the Audi and the VW (of course) will get a "bump" in hp and torque (albeit small) and will remain a single turbo unit. Currently it is 225 hp and 406 # ft. Even at that, the speed is computer limited to 135 mpg. I have also read that chipping can get the # ft of torque UP to 472 # ft. I think it has more to do with the fact that H rated tires are used and not the next high speed rated tires UP. There are real problems in getting the set up correct for the A/S demands and specifications.
Jeep Grand Cherokee S Limited is powered by the efficient 3.0-litre V-6 turbo-diesel engine with new-generation, 1.800-bar injectors and Multijet II technology developed and patented by Fiat Powertrain. The 3.0-litre turbo-diesel engine produces maximum power of 241 hp at 4,000 rpm and torque of 550 Nm at 1,800-2,800 rpm and is paired to the five-speed automatic transmission with Electronic Range Select (ERS). The 3.0-litre CRD powertrain is also offered in a low-output version, with 190 hp of power at 4,000 rpm and 440 Nm of torque across 1,600-2,800 rpm.
I am also getting the sense that some of the issues limiting (CUV) diesels are not diesel, nor drive train in nature.
So for example, the GC's tires (specifically size/s (unknown obviously), and ratings) are interesting "limiters" in the more so called "upgraded" sizes. The very attributes that give it almost startling dry roadability, etc are a little to a lot trickier when the "CUV" tires are used. Even more so on the winter side of the performance range.
Upshot: as the tire designs become more exotic, cost, selection, wear and bang for the buck become interesting issues. While I swag Touareg tire wear (smallest oem size) to be app 60,000 to 75,000 miles (this being conservative, as actual consumptive wear is really more like a minimum of 80,000 miles), just one to 2 in larger 19 in and 20 in (265/50/19, 275/45/20) sizes have a lot of folks who bought those sizes, replacing tires @ 18,000 to 23,000 miles. :sick: :lemon:
Probably even further off topic in the case of the VW Touareg tires. The choice of app 56 tires (on Tirerack.com) shrinks to app 14/16 choices each for the 19/20 in. Needless to say, the cost goes up also.
I agree on the foo foo tires and wheels they try to stick you with. I think 17 inch is the largest size wheel I would want on a large SUV. I will probably have to order and pressure the dealer to avoid low profiles and run flats. Mercedes wisely dumped the run flats. I think BMW is a little slower on getting the picture. I like the ride of larger donuts. Hopefully they will be available when I buy my diesel SUV.
I really do not want this to become a mantra. In the over all scheme of things, I really think there are a LOAD of waste full aspects about the whole mpg issue/s. Tires and/or/ both rims can be one perfect example. LQQKS can indeed be ULTRA expensive. Again it is commonly known that INCREASED tire widths and/or/both diameter sizes literally KILL mpg. Yet on this web site and some of the others that I follow, there are many who express frustration when they "super size" their tires and/or rims and are almost literally floored when they lose some to massive mpg's. There is also the misconception that super sized tires and or rims IMPROVEs performance. The real unvarnished truth are the effects (negative) need to be "compensated for or overcome", normally at higher costs and loss of efficiencies.
What ruking said! But ruking, don't worry, it's safe to also admit here that you designed an early prototype of "spinner" rims yet tossed the idea as something that would never sell.
Reminds me of a "great moment in automotive history" shown on Calvin Broadus' hilarious TV show a few years back: the first time someone upgraded with rims that cost more than the car.
..."But ruking, don't worry, it's safe to also admit here that you designed an early prototype of "spinner" rims yet tossed the idea as something that would never sell."...
Well thanks ! I would if I did, but I didn't, so I won't !
Just for grins, I did look on tire rack for the Touareg fitment. The tires and wheels that I halfway liked takes about 6,000 of a 10,000 dollar bill. :P Since this would not cover the winter, another 2,000.
Gee that is a LONG way for a spare set (4) of steelies for the 2003 Jetta TDI @ $ 50 . That is $12.50 each, including hub caps !
Just pulled into Santa Barbara, CA from the San Jose area, CA. app 300 miles. This is the first "real" road trip. It was just a gorgeous afternoon. We had the A/C on and the iPod for the tunes and the rear passenger was watching a movie. The AC was on. Three folks were in the car. There was little traffic to speak of (relatively to a lot of past Santa Barbara trips). We departed with the tank less than 1/2 full. So I filled @ 690 miles with 23 gals/26.4 gal tank . At that rate of consumption, we could have added 90 miles for 780 miles range. :shades: While there were a fair number of LLC'ers, passing on the right was almost never an issue.
I am thinking your diesel Touareg and this 30 foot travel trailer would be the perfect homeless rig. Tow your home and get close to 30 MPG doing it. Beats sleeping on a park bench.
lol, my brother got one of those last year at the factory down in Tennessee. Don't ask me which model, probably the Sport. The door is a bit glitchy but they replaced it under warranty.
Funny that the test used an Odyssey as the test vehicle. My brother has an Odyssey but only tows the TrailManor with his F-150 when they base camp. When they visited us a week or so ago, they tent camped out of the minivan. Got even better mpg.
Too funny, I just googled for an ultra light trailer. I know the Touareg to be a good tow vehicle. I think the towing mileage may be suspect. Not sure how they got it so much lighter than the competition. The other ultra lights are 3k lbs heavier. I could live like that on the road. My wife would not like it. With electronic banking no reason to be tied to an address or residence that screws the tax payers. Get a lifetime trailer license from CA for $5 and change residence to Nevada or some state that does not tax income. Go where the weather is nice and even if it dropped your mileage to 25 MPG it would be cheap traveling. Drive from sea to shining sea for about $500 in diesel. When you camp how much do you generally have to pay per night?
When you camp how much do you generally have to pay per night?
Varies a lot. When we camp with my brother, they have to have flush toilets and showers, and up in Copper Harbor they tent camped with a hookup site so they could run their fan. That was okay since they treated - we used our electric t-pot and kept the laptop charged, and had wifi at the campsite. Good company so it was fun.
When just my wife and I go, we always try to boondock somewhere for free. We're pretty expert at finding those spots, so long as we stop in the afternoons. Getting harder to find those spots since trails to old gravel borrow pits and the like are closed off more often now.
Second choice is a primitive campsite, like those you find in the national forests. Sometimes those are $8 or $10 though - too much for a pit toilet and a picnic table. If we're traveling more on a schedule, we'll hit the state parks and those get pricey (sometimes $25 for a tent - oh, the humanity! ). Occasionally we'll find a nice private camp but usually those are set up for the RV crowd.
The RV crowd - the ones with stinky diesel pushers that run their generators all night so they can have TV and AC. Why bother camping? If you just want to see the country, get a Town Car and hit the motels. Probably a cheaper way to travel than an RV.
That was the reason we sold the MB Sprinter after one long trip. Finding a spot that was nice (next to a lake) was near impossible. So we ended up in motels every night. The cat had the RV all to himself. He really did not like traveling. The cat was my main reason for buying the thing. Traveling in a nice SUV and staying in mid level motels like Best Western is more to my liking. Usually better locations as well. Along a river, lake or the ocean. The downside is the MB Sprinter got a lot better mileage than the Sequoia. One day I will make a decision on which diesel SUV is for us. Probably going to be the ML350 Bluetec. When the GLK250 Bluetec hits it will be the rage and the MLs should be discounted. I hope :shades:
The great thing about diesel (or gasser) RVs is that it keeps those folks from camping where we like to camp. :shades: Sometimes we'll just park on a wide spot in the dirt road and schlep gear 500 or 1,000 feet just to get a good spot in the middle of nowhere, without having to go backpacking style. Canoes will spoil you that way; easy to get away and still be able to carry your cooler and lawn chairs.
Just before you get to Ventura, CA (along the Pacific Ocean coast Highway 101 S/B) I just passed the nirvana in which you speak. There is a "trailer park" where you literally have a slew of RV sites ON the BEACH !! WOW !
I am logged in from Torrance, CA. I was going to log in from the Starbucks in the Farmer's Market on 3rd St, LA, but I could tell it was going to be a day at the zoo.
The entry-level model is the CLS 250 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY producing 150 kW (204 hp). Combined fuel consumption is 5.3 litres of diesel per 100 kilometres, an excellent level for this performance class and equivalent to CO2 emissions of 139 grams per kilometre.
That is 44 MPG US combined, for those that would like to have a luxury sedan that gets great mileage. And a not so shabby 53 MPG US on the highway. But who worries about mileage when Fuel is so cheap in America.
Marketers would never let that small an engine in such an expensive offering on these shores. We should eventually have a CLS diesel though. CLS break when it comes here will be a good 80K+.
Still waiting for confirmation of C diesel info. That engine with ~200hp in a C getting amazing mileage would be a nice performer. The much larger displacement E bluetec only has like 210hp.
Frankly the CLS is an ugly car to me. But 53 MPG out on the road in a luxobarge is pretty darn good. The Brits claim 7.5 seconds 0-62 MPH. Plenty fast enough. It would probably be in the $75k range.
Fuel mileage down in the LA (commute traffic) area really has not changed too much (MFD computers are indicating 30 mpg vs 31/32 @ home). We have done a LOAD of stop and go areas (downtown Hollywood, Sun tourista day, Grove, La Brea Tar Pits, Monday morning meetings with clients off the 405)
The CLS is very aerodynamic with a Cd value of 0.29. I am more of a box shape kind of guy. The Ford Flex would be my choice with a Diesel engine. Do they consider the CLS a wagon or hatch. Kind of a hybrid.
o A Cd of 0.29 is the same as the 1980s Audi 100, (not sure what it was called in USA). Audi were so proud of this then-groundbreaking number that it was etched into the glass of the rear quarter windows. Seems we haven't move on a lot in the last almost 30 years.
o In Europe MB are asking us to think of this CLS as a "Five seater sports car". Silly people. For my money the Jaguar XF Sportbrake, (wagon/estate), is just as pretty and doubtless cheaper.
Prices for the Jag, here in UK, range from - in approx USD equiv - 51k for the base-spec 2.2 diesel to 81k for the top-of-the-shop 3.0 V6 diesel model. The 335bhp V6 gasser will follow later. Still want the Merc ?
I am not sure...something very dependent on "ceteris paribus", would vary greatly on the details of the vehicle in question. with impacts maybe rising as the Cd rises.
Well for sure they never are. But at the same time, the smaller numbers are most likely to offer less wind resistance and enhance the chances of better mpg. In some ways it would be a study in over lapping variables in a VW TDI engine 2.0 L that is in many platforms Jetta, Passat, soon to be NB, Golf, etc.
Interesting that I have been getting a lot of VW Touareg TDI survey requests, from some of the "recognizable" (non recognizable also) rating agencies. They have been in the form of E and real mailings.
Noteworthy, is the thrust of the inquiries seems to be aimed at picking EVERY aspect/detail apart. There are many spots and lines to post problems (problem comment blocks) and for each and every issue they are inquiring about.
Indeed, one might have no problems nor issues at all. Yet there is not one(comment block) line to say THAT, even as they ask one to rate the over all quality and experience !? I am sure one can, but it would be structurally deemed a "problem". It is almost like one can feel like an oddity, if one does not have a complaint to pitch. They seem to the the lawyer questions like: when did you stop beating your spouse. So if one says, have never, then instantly one is STILL suspect.
I really did use that methodology to approach the car. But at 6,000 miles, the 2012 VW Touareg continues to "behave" flawlessly. I rated it accordingly.
You can also tell them the Touareg TDI holds the record for fastest time from the tip of South America to the end of the road in North America. A 16,000 mile road trip in 11 days. I think it will be a while before anyone breaks that record.
My personal (day) best was 1,150 miles, (no alternate driver) but then I was (I didn't know it at the time ) outrunning Hurricane Katrina's LANDFALL ! I was supposed to stay in downtown New Orleans with 6 story covered parking (nearby). That reservation was changed enroute (before hitting NO's) by cellphone to Houston, TX. That was probably one of the more surreal car traveling experiences. Even Houston, TX was close to rain fall crisis status.
Even as the oem recommendation for the Touareg TDI oil change is 10,000 miles, I would swag it would make it easily to 20,000 miles. (I do 30,000 miles OCI's on the 2003 Jetta TDI with 177,000 miles. :shades: ) Even at this early stage of Touareg experiences, I do not anticipate nor swag any longer term issues.
So anecdotally, I have had three near flawless TDI AND VW experiences.
Today on the MBUSA "special offers" page, I noticed the E bluetec is leasing cheaper than the E gas, even with a higher assumed MSRP and lower upfront cash. Maybe sales aren't panning out as strong as hoped...or on a positive note, maybe resale value is expected to be much better.
I get emails from several MB dealers. Never on the ML BlueTec. I am not interested in a lease. I don't put enough miles on to justify a lease. If I ever start traveling around the USA like our host, I would be able to justify a diesel SUV.
gagrice, that is heroic, the feline aspect and capabilities of your vehicular choices. made my day. the cat really did not like travelling, you say! has anyone else been surprised by the cat's preference for not travelling? you didn't enroll the cat on any kind of cat-swim-team too did you?
as for 2-a-reg TDI and towing something and getting 30 mpg, i don't think so. Both Feynman and the old TV commercial were correct: there is no fooling mother nature. And it's not nice to try.
in this case that means that for every 100 lbs towed, mpg will drop 0.25 mpg. or whatever. It's a linear drop in mpg per pound towed, just with some different coefficients than if the weight were inside the vehicle.
For someone only wanting the car for a few years, leasing can make sense for that class of vehicle - as depreciation is staggering in the first few years. The leases are always subsidized to some extent.
I found it amusing that a more expensive diesel had lower payment costs than a gas car, not to mention lower fuel costs (as diesel is cheaper than premium which the engine is designed for). I looked closer and MB is indeed jacking up expected resale for the diesels. Would be tempting if I could negotiate a sweetheart price for the exact car I want...and if I didn't have a pristine long since paid off car sitting in the garage.
It was just a good excuse to spend the cash on and RV that my wife would understand. It was her cat. He has since died. So no more RVs for cats. My limited experience with towing would match what you said. The light weight trailer I listed just caught my eye. If I found myself homeless I would probably go for a Prevost diesel pusher and tow the Touareg or ML diesel. :shades:
I have not looked at a lease since 1976, so I may get my calculator out and think about it. I could get a new vehicle every 3 years. That would be fun. And keep the cash in the bank making the big interest. :sick:
Yes, I am guessing the target demographic are the so called executive types, where their corporations pay the lease. When the lease is up, the car goes to auction. So not only is the cost totally depreciated, but brings another sales price.
From what I have been reading, it seems all OEMS want to sell as many 2012 MY cars as possible, to have a so called "good year" after so many bad to marginal years. 9.5 M to 10.5 M being the "bad" years. It looked like a 14.5 M pace early in the MY, but now the pace seems to be slowing WAY down.
Comments
Even with a $7500
bribecredit from the Fed and $2000 from state (MD), you're looking at Mid/high 30s for an economy people mover.Just get a Prius V for 10 grand less.
You would have to drive well over 100,000 miles to pay $10 grand for gas on the V, and that assumes the electricity is free.
Not to mention the opportunity cost of that $10 grand.
At least hybrids and diesels make economic sense. You do break even, often when they're still under warranty, at least the emissions stuff.
EVs are still too pricey to be economically viable, even with these huge credits.
That's before you consider that Li-ion demand exceeds supply so the battery prices will only get worse.
The SQ5 will be powered by the all-new V-6 turbo-diesel engine boasting two turbochargers which Audi has been working on for various models in the lineup. This engine produces a total of 313 hp and 479.42 lb-ft of torque between 1,450 and 2,800 rpm. This power is enough to sprint the SUV from 0 to 60 mph in just 5.1 seconds and up to a top speed of 155 mph, but also deliver a fuel economy of 32.67 US mpg.
2013 Audi SQ5 TDI
So for example, the GC's tires (specifically size/s (unknown obviously), and ratings) are interesting "limiters" in the more so called "upgraded" sizes. The very attributes that give it almost startling dry roadability, etc are a little to a lot trickier when the "CUV" tires are used. Even more so on the winter side of the performance range.
Upshot: as the tire designs become more exotic, cost, selection, wear and bang for the buck become interesting issues. While I swag Touareg tire wear (smallest oem size) to be app 60,000 to 75,000 miles (this being conservative, as actual consumptive wear is really more like a minimum of 80,000 miles), just one to 2 in larger 19 in and 20 in (265/50/19, 275/45/20) sizes have a lot of folks who bought those sizes, replacing tires @ 18,000 to 23,000 miles. :sick: :lemon:
Probably even further off topic in the case of the VW Touareg tires. The choice of app 56 tires (on Tirerack.com) shrinks to app 14/16 choices each for the 19/20 in. Needless to say, the cost goes up also.
Reminds me of a "great moment in automotive history" shown on Calvin Broadus' hilarious TV show a few years back:
the first time someone upgraded with rims that cost more than the car.
Well thanks ! I would if I did, but I didn't, so I won't !
Just for grins, I did look on tire rack for the Touareg fitment. The tires and wheels that I halfway liked takes about 6,000 of a 10,000 dollar bill. :P Since this would not cover the winter, another 2,000.
Gee that is a LONG way for a spare set (4) of steelies for the 2003 Jetta TDI @ $ 50 . That is $12.50 each, including hub caps !
Sounds like a "you might be a redneck" joke.
The one around here is you might be a redneck if you keep more money at your deer stand than in your house.
Here's another one you diesel fans won't get (two diesel engine choices in fact):
Mercedes Unveils CLS Shooting Brake (Inside Line)
http://www.trailmanor.com/WebDocs/Camping-Towing/towtest.html
Funny that the test used an Odyssey as the test vehicle. My brother has an Odyssey but only tows the TrailManor with his F-150 when they base camp. When they visited us a week or so ago, they tent camped out of the minivan. Got even better mpg.
Varies a lot. When we camp with my brother, they have to have flush toilets and showers, and up in Copper Harbor they tent camped with a hookup site so they could run their fan. That was okay since they treated - we used our electric t-pot and kept the laptop charged, and had wifi at the campsite. Good company so it was fun.
When just my wife and I go, we always try to boondock somewhere for free. We're pretty expert at finding those spots, so long as we stop in the afternoons. Getting harder to find those spots since trails to old gravel borrow pits and the like are closed off more often now.
Second choice is a primitive campsite, like those you find in the national forests. Sometimes those are $8 or $10 though - too much for a pit toilet and a picnic table. If we're traveling more on a schedule, we'll hit the state parks and those get pricey (sometimes $25 for a tent - oh, the humanity!
The RV crowd - the ones with stinky diesel pushers that run their generators all night so they can have TV and AC. Why bother camping? If you just want to see the country, get a Town Car and hit the motels. Probably a cheaper way to travel than an RV.
I am logged in from Torrance, CA. I was going to log in from the Starbucks in the Farmer's Market on 3rd St, LA, but I could tell it was going to be a day at the zoo.
That is 44 MPG US combined, for those that would like to have a luxury sedan that gets great mileage. And a not so shabby 53 MPG US on the highway. But who worries about mileage when Fuel is so cheap in America.
Still waiting for confirmation of C diesel info. That engine with ~200hp in a C getting amazing mileage would be a nice performer. The much larger displacement E bluetec only has like 210hp.
A 75K CLS will be absolutely base, and might not even exist outside of a special order. Those options carry huge profit margins.
o A Cd of 0.29 is the same as the 1980s Audi 100, (not sure what it was called in USA). Audi were so proud of this then-groundbreaking number that it was etched into the glass of the rear quarter windows. Seems we haven't move on a lot in the last almost 30 years.
o In Europe MB are asking us to think of this CLS as a "Five seater sports car". Silly people. For my money the Jaguar XF Sportbrake, (wagon/estate), is just as pretty and doubtless cheaper.
Prices for the Jag, here in UK, range from - in approx USD equiv - 51k for the base-spec 2.2 diesel to 81k for the top-of-the-shop 3.0 V6 diesel model. The 335bhp V6 gasser will follow later. Still want the Merc ?
Strangely enough, The kind of boxy and angular W212 E-class has an amazingly low Cd, 0.25 for sedan, 0.24 for coupe.
Noteworthy, is the thrust of the inquiries seems to be aimed at picking EVERY aspect/detail apart. There are many spots and lines to post problems (problem comment blocks) and for each and every issue they are inquiring about.
Indeed, one might have no problems nor issues at all. Yet there is not one(comment block) line to say THAT, even as they ask one to rate the over all quality and experience !? I am sure one can, but it would be structurally deemed a "problem". It is almost like one can feel like an oddity, if one does not have a complaint to pitch. They seem to the the lawyer questions like: when did you stop beating your spouse. So if one says, have never, then instantly one is STILL suspect.
I really did use that methodology to approach the car. But at 6,000 miles, the 2012 VW Touareg continues to "behave" flawlessly. I rated it accordingly.
http://www.tdi-panamericana.com/
My personal (day) best was 1,150 miles, (no alternate driver) but then I was (I didn't know it at the time ) outrunning Hurricane Katrina's LANDFALL ! I was supposed to stay in downtown New Orleans with 6 story covered parking (nearby). That reservation was changed enroute (before hitting NO's) by cellphone to Houston, TX. That was probably one of the more surreal car traveling experiences. Even Houston, TX was close to rain fall crisis status.
Even as the oem recommendation for the Touareg TDI oil change is 10,000 miles, I would swag it would make it easily to 20,000 miles. (I do 30,000 miles OCI's on the 2003 Jetta TDI with 177,000 miles. :shades: ) Even at this early stage of Touareg experiences, I do not anticipate nor swag any longer term issues.
So anecdotally, I have had three near flawless TDI AND VW experiences.
as for 2-a-reg TDI and towing something and getting 30 mpg, i don't think so. Both Feynman and the old TV commercial were correct:
there is no fooling mother nature. And it's not nice to try.
in this case that means that for every 100 lbs towed, mpg will drop 0.25 mpg. or whatever. It's a linear drop in mpg per pound towed, just with some different coefficients than if the weight were inside the vehicle.
How do I enter that panamerican race? :}
I found it amusing that a more expensive diesel had lower payment costs than a gas car, not to mention lower fuel costs (as diesel is cheaper than premium which the engine is designed for). I looked closer and MB is indeed jacking up expected resale for the diesels. Would be tempting if I could negotiate a sweetheart price for the exact car I want...and if I didn't have a pristine long since paid off car sitting in the garage.
https://www.prevostcar.com/content/prevost-h3-45-vip
From what I have been reading, it seems all OEMS want to sell as many 2012 MY cars as possible, to have a so called "good year" after so many bad to marginal years. 9.5 M to 10.5 M being the "bad" years. It looked like a 14.5 M pace early in the MY, but now the pace seems to be slowing WAY down.